np: UU Stage 1 - Changes

[MrAldo]

can we just talk about Cresselia for like a post or two?

Sure. This pokemon is really amazing. It provides fantastic support with moves like thunder wave, screens (both of them), rain dance, psycho shift, magic coat and the amazing Lunar Dance. Lunar Dance is amazing on trick room teams, setting up trick room before using it and the provide a second chance to a wallbreaker to kill stuff again. This mon is a staple (I will argue that is a necessity) to any possible trick room team or even if you dont have a cress on yours you could potentially use one just because of this.

It also has the bulk and reliable recovery in moonlight to use those moves plenty of times in a match (some are gimmicky but hey, gotta add something).

The subcm set is so good. Such an excellent win con for balanced or defensively oriented teams and it can set up against plenty of mons (be wary that this set can get walled by any relatively healthy steel type) but overall it is such a good set. Enough speed to bop a honchkrow with moonblast cause why not without sacrificing much bulk. It is also an amazing fighting type check as mentioned.

Also did anyone ever noticed this thing has 120/120/130. Thats absolutely disgusting.

P.D: An apology on my previous post.

 

[Zartres10]

Easy way to prove Scrafty's viability: get some replays against a decent opponent where it works well, and explain why another pokemon could not have succeeded in its place.

Flygon, on the other hand... While its offensive sets are mostly garbage, I do think its Defog set has a niche. Gligar outclasses it by a mile on most teams, but Flygon takes less damage from hazards than any non-Magic Guard pokemon in the game, and its typing lets a defensive set do a pretty good job of checking strong Fire attackers like Entei. Again, I'm not saying that you should start ditching Gligar or Crobat in favor of Flygon. But it DOES have a niche, albeit a small one. I can try to get replays later.

Agreed with this. I really don't think flygon is all that bad of a pokemon, just outclassed. Btw, reached B rank on my alt! (Edit: 26-7 :P)

 

[Zartres10]

With such charming people at every turn, I wonder why it is I don't post here more often?

BT manages to consistently make it into the top 200 on several different ladders when he puts effort in, so it's hard to call him anything worse than above average from an unbiased perspective. Also, yeah, he plays gimmicky sets, but he's also playing pokemon to have fun. Shocker, right?

Okay, so let's consent to something, shall we? No, Scrafty AV doesn't hit that hard. Like I said, he isn't supposed to. He can stick around for longer than Machamp to get off Knock Offs and Dragon Tails. That's why he's useful; he's bulky utility. Machamp AV is supposed to hit harder, but he has no recovery and as such won't stick around for as long. Again, calm yourself. It's a niche set.
You're also ignoring the other set I mentioned, which is the Rest/Bulk Up/Shed Skin. As I said, one Bulk Up and Scrafty is sitting at about 320 Att, 400 Def, 360 SpDef. That's a nasty threat, that is. "Oh but Scrafty gets destroyed by Fairy Types!" I hear you say. Yes, and it's a shame too, if only the game was designed in such a way that you could have teammates with which to cover the weaknesses of other teammates.
I'd get some games in with Scrafty and post the results, but I'm afraid after all this constructive discussions and respectful conversation, any evidence would just be excessive (Or ignored).



(Oh right, should probably leave this here:)

252+ Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Scrafty can do a number on Scarfed 'Rachi, which, as I just said, is the bane of UU. Just saying)

What is this reasoning... A super effective STAB knock off doing damage? Who would have thought it... :/ In any case, your logic is flawed. There are other pokemon that can deal with Jirachi, so just because it can hit it super effectively (not even 1HKOing it), doesn't mean it's a viable mon. It is bad.

 

[Patrick1088]

I do the DH project every month and have tried several mons; some good, some just difficult overall to use. Gimmicky sets can catch people off guard. So, the question comes down to whether straying from the more established mons or sets viable.

The answer is yes, but this different set must be able to do something that wont be able to just catch people off guard.

For example, Emboar is a much less used mon. Reckless is a big boon to the power output for this piggie. Now, a mixed set is very viable since it has the tools to do it (high hp, FB, Wild charge, grass knot, sucker punch, etc..). So, it can tear things up pretty easily while differentiating it from Infernape which can go mixed, but lacks the priority to beat faster psychics like Azelf, Alakazam, Starmie, etc..

Now, a gimmicky set would be Scarf Emboar. It would catch some.people off guard netting a key KO when they were expecting to survive, which could net them the win. But, put those battlers again and its almost guaranteed they wont make that mistake again. The first set has more viability in the current meta despite emboars low usage moreso than scarf which loses its viability once the surprise is up.

If ypu want a more relevant threat that probably shouldnt be played is Scarf Crobat. Once the gimmick is up, its easy to check, but when the time comes it can catch a player off guard. I had a battle the other day where i managed to pass +4 sp atk boost to Yanmega. At +1 speed it shouldve been able to beat pretty much everything including non scarf bat. But, the opponent had that and i lost that match sadly.

Edit: but regarding Scrafty, i think the meta is too fast and hard hitting. you have faster and stronger dark types in Mega Absol and Hydre, faster fithting types in Infernape, Lucario, Mienshao and Cobalion (id argue cobalion is probably the closest one to truly outclass scrafty due to higher hp and def and ability to boost attack faster in SD). Thrn we have straight up more powerful fighting mons that dont need to boost; Machamp, Pangoro, heck even AV Hariyama can have a better niche than Scrafty thanks to Thick Fat and huge HP.

I tried Scrafty. Its BU sets are ruined by Fairies which easily ohko even from a coverage move in dazzling gleam from a non fairy. Its dd sets are too slow where crobat outspeeds +2 and easily ohko. I think it has to be at +3 for even to be faster than mega Aero, beedrill scept, pidgeot, etc.. ifyou run jolly thrn the power output is even less and bulky mons can phaze with roar or be able to take the boosted hit.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

So with the end of the month quickly approaching, the UU room is getting a but abuzz about the upcoming Shift, more so as this will be the first full (3-month) shift since ORAS release. Decided to do a bit of digging myself using the previous months, and found a group of potential gains/losses for us(mostly using Dec stats - as Nov. was 8 days of data):

Stuff that may go into OU: Diancie(4.16%), Sceptile(3.84%), Empoleon(3.63%), Tentacruel(3.63%), Beedrill(3.43%) - Special note of Politoed @ 3.37%
Stuff we might get from OU: Manetric(3.29%), Heracross(3.14%), Pinsir(2.96%), Salamence(1.05%)
Stuff we might gets from RU: Pidgeot(4.36%), Whimsicott(4.26%), Gligar(4.1%), Sceptile(4.1% - if OU doesn't get)
Stuff we will give to RU: Kingdra(3.32%)

As for the shifts people keep trying to see happen, Jirachi seems a bit too low to go up, seeing 2.9% usage in OU; Sylveon has seen a large resurgence, seeing over 5% usage since ORAS came out; and Mandibuzz seems to have potential, being 3.5%.

In the end, there seems to be a LOT of potential for some big shifts for UU, both in gains and losses.

 

[yamb]

I can't wait to see what shifts, but I'll hold off on speculation since most of the speculation that gets latched onto in this thread for the few days before shifts almost always turns out to be wrong. However, from those stats you posted, I'm not seeing too much of a change to the overall landscape of UU. I would probably be more afraid if I played RU than anything.

 

[Hogg]

Tentacruel and Empoleon would be seriously major blows if we lost them to OU. That would bump up Starmie's usage a good bit, I suspect, as the only seriously viable bulky water with hazard control left.

 

[Talpr0ne]

| 53 | Heracross | 3.13502% | 115188 | 3.316% | 88117 | 3.182% |

rip machamp's viability

 

[Leica]

| 53 | Heracross | 3.13502% | 115188 | 3.316% | 88117 | 3.182% |

rip machamp's viability

I assume this is mostly because of the period where Lopunny/Gallade etc were legal here, some mons are still recovering in usage from back then.

Edit: Oh, it's OU, oops.

 

[Kreme]

I assume this is mostly because of the period where Lopunny/Gallade etc were legal here, some mons are still recovering in usage from back then.

That's OU usage lol, Gallade and Loppuny are still good to go there.

 

[yamb]

Tentacruel and Empoleon would be seriously major blows if we lost them to OU. That would bump up Starmie's usage a good bit, I suspect, as the only seriously viable bulky water with hazard control left.

I'm not convinced we're going to lose them. They shot up specifically to insulate teams from Greninja, and while Tentacruel is still viable in OU I doubt its usage is still high. There's three weeks of usage since Greninja left OU, and the three month average will probably put Empoleon and Tentacruel just below or right on the usage cutoff.

 

[MrAldo]

>Jirachi not seeing enough usage to move up

sigh

Potential drops and raises are looking pretty interesting though. Lol heracross and pinsir.

 

[Firebird101]

Yeah not making any hopes UU can handle Mega Pinsir, or Mega Heracross for that matter so if they do end up dropping UU will be in for yet another hopelessly broken mega suspect testing >_<. Hopefully Salamence gets to stay this time around but I am not hopeful on that part. Mega Manectric should fit nicely in though and it will be nice to see Machamp to get some serious competition from Hera at least ^^

I'll be surprised if Sceptile and Beedrill are truly gonna be OU as they haven't that much of a impact and I haven't seen them that much in all honestly. There are already so many mega's in OU that friggin Pinsir may be dropping. But I am really skeptical Tentacruel and Empoleon will be entering OU as despite them being decent Ninja checks at the time they are niche choices (except maybe Tenta on Sableye stall teams).

 

[Schpoonman]

Tentacruel and Empoleon would be seriously major blows if we lost them to OU. That would bump up Starmie's usage a good bit, I suspect, as the only seriously viable bulky water with hazard control left.

You mean besides Mega Blastoise? Granted, Starmie has more staying power when you run the bulky Recover set, but Mega Blastoise isn't weak to U-Turn, Dark, or Ghost, and hits harder than basically every Starmie besides Analytic Specs while boasting superior natural bulk.

But I digress. Frankly, if I were in Koko's shoes Pinsirite would never see UU unbound. If Pinsir drops its Mega Stone needs to go to BL IMMEDIATELY. UU does not have the Pokemon necessary to deal with Aerilate Returns. Even Mega Manectric if he drops is only a check.

I really do love Salamence, I just hope people are more clever to do something other than replace their Scarf Hydras with Scarf Snowballs (even though that's easily my favorite Salamence set). Looking forward to seeing if he's UU material.

For the love of Cheezus I hope we see Heracross again. I need its Flame Orb set back in my life. Funnily enough, its best check is probably Mega Pinsir, seeing as how Heracross' most popular set is going to be the Scarf Moxie cleaner. On a Mega note, Does Celebi get Agility or something like that? Because a +2/+2 Megacross is pretty much unstoppable. Maybe we'll see SD/Agility/BP Gligar. Don't ask me why I thought of him, I thought of Gliscor first. But again, Aerilate Quick Attack will be our savior. Unless Heracross somehow gets a Sub up, then we're all doomed.

 

[slated]

You mean besides Mega Blastoise? Granted, Starmie has more staying power when you run the bulky Recover set, but Mega Blastoise isn't weak to U-Turn, Dark, or Ghost, and hits harder than basically every Starmie besides Analytic Specs while boasting superior natural bulk.

But I digress. Frankly, if I were in Koko's shoes Pinsirite would never see UU unbound. If Pinsir drops its Mega Stone needs to go to BL IMMEDIATELY. UU does not have the Pokemon necessary to deal with Aerilate Returns. Even Mega Manectric if he drops is only a check.

I really do love Salamence, I just hope people are more clever to do something other than replace their Scarf Hydras with Scarf Snowballs (even though that's easily my favorite Salamence set). Looking forward to seeing if he's UU material.

For the love of Cheezus I hope we see Heracross again. I need its Flame Orb set back in my life. Funnily enough, its best check is probably Mega Pinsir, seeing as how Heracross' most popular set is going to be the Scarf Moxie cleaner. On a Mega note, Does Celebi get Agility or something like that? Because a +2/+2 Megacross is pretty much unstoppable. Maybe we'll see SD/Agility/BP Gligar. Don't ask me why I thought of him, I thought of Gliscor first. But again, Aerilate Quick Attack will be our savior. Unless Heracross somehow gets a Sub up, then we're all doomed.

Mega Heracross was already banned from before so I don't know why all the megacross talk, I mean it may get a retest but I think it's pretty obvious that and mega pinsir would be banned in a heartbeat (is there even a mon in the tier that lives a hit from Mega Hera in this tier lol?) Also Scarf Moxie hera is really not as good as Banded Hera, which was all the rage before it left (that and tini were the two premier wallbreakers in my favorite part of XY UU. Banded Tini + Banded Hera core was stronk af.) Also the only mon that gets Agility + BP is beedrill, rofl. Gligar can maybe run it, but I don't even see the need to pass speed boosts to Hera when you can run a Sub + 3 attacks or an SD + 3 attacks set depending on whether you want to break offense or stall, and offense can't fucking switch into it (except for maybe Crobat which still gets bopped by Rock Blast on the switch, and clean OHKO'd without rocks.) Mence seems like a cool dude which was banned in the tier before but was disputable, so hopefully we can do a Mence suspect test, which would be kinda nice. Obviously there's stuff that can stop it but imo it's potentially banworthy because of its DD set and intimidate + crazy bulk or just moxie DD which snowballs really well with one DD up. Obv pinsirite will be broken and there's no discussion about that. I think starmie would still rise though for people that want a bulky water spinner that doesnt take a mega slot.

 

[Nightingales]

If Mega Hera manages to get to the tier, and somehow the sub set gets up too, I suspect we'll see a lot more Crobats and Noiverns running Infiltrator.

 

[Hogg]

Eh, I consider Mega-Blast more of an offensive threat than a bulky water. It's insanely difficult to switch into, but you don't want to switch it into anything yourself because its Speed means that once it is worn down, it's no longer a major threat.

Not trying to say that Starmie is at all better than Blastoise - I think Mega-Blastoise is still one of the most dangerous mons in the tier, even if it isn't used as much as it once was - but I don't think it fills the same role as Tentacruel or Empoleon at all, while Starmie sort of can (although the U-turn weakness is admittedly a problem).

Probably moot though, since as mentioned Cruel and Empoleon are unlikely to rise.

You mean besides Mega Blastoise? Granted, Starmie has more staying power when you run the bulky Recover set, but Mega Blastoise isn't weak to U-Turn, Dark, or Ghost, and hits harder than basically every Starmie besides Analytic Specs while boasting superior natural bulk.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Even without Greninja, Tentacruel has a great niche on balanced and stall teams because it is one of the few reliable counters to Gengar, Keldeo, Azumarill and Clefable, as well as being a great partner/answer to Mega Sableye and having access to the coveted Rapid Spin, basically enabling hazard stacking stall to exist. It might not rise, but unlike Empoleon which tbh only really was a bad check to Greninja, Tentacruel still holds an actual niche and a chance of leaving to OU.

 

[Chronobreak]

I think heracross(not mega lol) dropping will be like a breath of fresh air for UU. I think the meta is in a good place to take care of it without much adjustment. Flying types, namely pidgeot will be very good, while different mons will surface to counter the new threat. Serp won't be as effective tho, which is kinda sad :(

 

[Schpoonman]

Serperior won't be in that much of a bind. With Stealth Rock, +0 Leaf Storm -> +2 Hidden Power Fire does a minimum of 100.8% to 0/4 Heracross.

 

[GOthee]

I think heracross(not mega lol) dropping will be like a breath of fresh air for UU. I think the meta is in a good place to take care of it without much adjustment. Flying types, namely pidgeot will be very good, while different mons will surface to counter the new threat. Serp won't be as effective tho, which is kinda sad :(

when hera arrives i hope his mega stone will be allowed for test.

 

[Schpoonman]

It will, but it will be put on the backburner considering just how powerful Mega Heracross is.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

I wouldn't count Hera out so quickly against Serp, if I remember correctly he does run a scarf cleaner set fairly often which means that Hera OHKOs with Megahorn and you're looking at +1 Megahorn coming off scarf speed.

I still wouldn't call it a terrible situation for Serp because that's really the only Hera set that can manhandle Serp like that unless I'm wrong, but still something to look out for with the two.

 

[KaiseraAeros]

It will, but it will be put on the backburner considering just how powerful Mega Heracross is.

I think Mega Heras retest will be the one right before Weavile retest in the year 252525

Also lets talk about the dude which had his retest fucked over by the ORAS Changes Salamence what you guys think of it?
I`m prolly just going to use him the lazys man way(AKA Scarf Moxie) mostly because its the only Scarfer in the tier that can actually clean up for me(cause my Mienshaos are blind as fuck)

 

[DiscoDucky]

I think Mega Heras retest will be the one right before Weavile retest in the year 252525

Also lets talk about the dude which had his retest fucked over by the ORAS Changes Salamence what you guys think of it?
I`m prolly just going to use him the lazys man way(AKA Scarf Moxie) mostly because its the only Scarfer in the tier that can actually clean up for me(cause my Mienshaos are blind as fuck)

Idk about you all, but I'm gonna pull a pic and use mence on stall