np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas

[alexwolf]

I think that we should go with one ban at a time,to be able to observe the situation better!
If we ban Snow Warning + Snow Cloak and Hail continues to be broken then we could go to the next step,but imo we should first remove the annoying luck factor that Snow Cloak brings.

 

[ToF]

For the last time, Blizzspam is broken as well, which is a byproduct of Hail as a weather condition, not Snow Cloak abusers like Froslass or Mamoswine. If you just choose to Blizzard everything, you're getting frozen more often than not. I hate to be a whiny bitch right now but basically every game I played last night was a loss due to critical hits and freezes from Abomasnow / Glaceon / Froslass / Mamoswine / Rotom-F and not because my attacks missed (although I lost a few games due to Scald misses, which just further adds onto the point that Hail as a field condition is broken). I initially thought nerfing Hail with banning Abomasnow was right, but after playing 3 days and getting 3 alts undefeated at 1350 only to have all three knocked down by Hail CONSECUTIVELY (for reasons cited above), this retarded weather just needs to get the fuck out. I'm not gonna waste my time posting logs but you can ask anyone in #genvuu how pissed off I was last night and they will tell you what was the reason.

 

[Heysup]

Well not to add fuel to this fire, but I can't remember ever losing to BlizzSpam and have lost many times to missing with Flare Blitz on Snow Cloak mons. You clearly still need to outplay your opponents with BlizzSpam on its own, but Snow Cloak is there so that you never have to.

 

[Shinji Mimura]

@Amire

If you complex ban Snow Warning and Snow Cloak, Abomasnow is no longer the same type of threat he is now. Hail without Snow Cloak spam is pretty balanced indeed, especially in a tier that at very least has access to Sandstream to mitigate it. Abomasnow without Snow Cloak Pokemon is just a guy who sets up Blizzspam honestly, and while that's a good strategy, it's not what people are whining about.

Also, to bring this thread to a non-Hail topic, I haven't read a single thing about Alakazam since he was abruptly forced into UU. How have people's experiences been with him?

 

[Heysup]

Still have a shit ton of trouble with Alakazam and have an easy time using it, it's the MVP in every game. It's just sort of a dead topic since the senate voted it UU.

 

[alexwolf]

For the last time, Blizzspam is broken as well, which is a byproduct of Hail as a weather condition, not Snow Cloak abusers like Froslass or Mamoswine. If you just choose to Blizzard everything, you're getting frozen more often than not. I hate to be a whiny bitch right now but basically every game I played last night was a loss due to critical hits and freezes from Abomasnow / Glaceon / Froslass / Mamoswine / Rotom-F and not because my attacks missed (although I lost a few games due to Scald misses, which just further adds onto the point that Hail as a field condition is broken). I initially thought nerfing Hail with banning Abomasnow was right, but after playing 3 days and getting 3 alts undefeated at 1350 only to have all three knocked down by Hail CONSECUTIVELY (for reasons cited above), this retarded weather just needs to get the fuck out. I'm not gonna waste my time posting logs but you can ask anyone in #genvuu how pissed off I was last night and they will tell you what was the reason.

While i respect your opinion,the senate members must also make sure that they respect and take in mind the people's opinions.
Most people here have clearly said that they believe that the problem is Snow Cloak and not Blizzspam. While Blizzspam certainly has the potential to prove broken we can't know yet,with Snow Cloak distorting our meta.
So getting rid of Snow Cloak should be our first priority imo!

Also about the things that you mentioned that make Blizzspam broken:

1.Crits are irrelevant, no need to explain why
2.Most of the Blizzspammers are countered by pokes who have means of getting thawed out. All bulky waters in UU carry the move Scald which thaws out the user immediately. Many fire types like Arcanine,Victini and Darmanitan carry the move Flare Blitz.
Finally Ice types themselves are immune to Freezing.
3.Even if none of the things in my 2nd point happened the fact that Blizzard only has a 10% chance of freezing doesn't make it sound so threateining,even when spammed.

So let's say that the move gets spammed and is used ~10 times in a fight by the Blizzard spammer. This means that it will freeze ~1 poke in a match. I don't know if this chance is big or not but it doesn't seem worse to me than a poke being asleep. Especially if you take into account the things i mentioned in my second point.

EDIT : To add more evidence to my second point, Snorlax, which is the best Blizzard absorber, also resists Fire moves, which means that in the event that Snorlax gets frozen it can be brought in a predicted Fire move and thaw out(many Hail teams carry a fire mon,especially Chandelure).I know that i am searching for needles in the hay but every little thing helps sometimes!

 

[complete legitimacy]

While i respect your opinion,the senate members must also make sure that they respect and take in mind the people's opinions.
Most people here have clearly said that they believe that the problem is Snow Cloak and not Blizzspam. While Blizzspam certainly has the potential to prove broken we can't know yet,with Snow Cloak distorting our meta.
So getting rid of Snow Cloak should be our first priority imo!

Also about the things that you mentioned that make Blizzspam broken:

1.Crits are irrelevant, no need to explain why
2.Most of the Blizzspammers are countered by pokes who have means of getting thawed out. All bulky waters in UU carry the move Scald which thaws out the user immediately. Many fire types like Arcanine,Victini and Darmanitan carry the move Flare Blitz.
Finally Ice types themselves are immune to Freezing.
3.Even if none of the things in my 2nd point happened the fact that Blizzard only has a 10% chance of freezing doesn't make it sound so threateining,even when spammed.

So let's say that the move gets spammed and is used ~10 times in a fight by the Blizzard spammer. This means that it will freeze ~1 poke in a match. I don't know if this chance is big or not but it doesn't seem worse to me than a poke being asleep. Especially if you take into account the things i mentioned in my second point.

EDIT : To add more evidence to my second point, Snorlax, which is the best Blizzard absorber, also resists Fire moves, which means that in the event that Snorlax gets frozen it can be brought in a predicted Fire move and thaw out(many Hail teams carry a fire mon,especially Chandelure).I know that i am searching for needles in the hay but every little thing helps sometimes!

But at the same time, we can do an effective nerf of both BlizzSpam and Snow Cloak by banning Abomasnow. This does isn't a complex ban nor is it completely getting rid of a playstyle. It also makes the smallest impact while we are 10 days away from having new tiers.

OU faced this same issue with rain in round 2. They faced the issue of whether to nerf a playstyle severely or just ban it outright. However, the only weather starter in that playstyle was Politoed. With Hail, we can ban the weather starter that is superior to others. If we level the playing field, then maybe Hail won't be so broken. I think that if more people used Sand, we wouldn't be talking about this right now. Abomasnow may be able t outlast Hippopotas, but can Snover do the same? It's worth testing.

Sand teams can still function, albeit not as well, without Sand up. Hail teams cannot. In anything else, Blizzard is very inaccurate and Mamoswine and Froslass are just a physical attacker and a Spiker, respectively. Even if we weren't getting new tiers in 10 days I still think banning Abomasnow would be the best option for a desirable metagame in the future.

 

[Heysup]

Based on the premise that Abomasnow is a significant enough nerf to the broken aspects of hail, Abomasnow would make sense to ban. However, that is a faulty premise.

Clearly Abomasnow is better than Snover, but what exactly are the biggest issues with hail? The followup is: how does banning Abomasnow effect it? Snow Cloak and BlizzSpam are essentially the only complaints about hail, with the annoying residual damage still having some minor influence. I'm sure you would suggest that an Abomasnow ban actually does effect BlizzSpam since you're losing a spammer. I agree with this, and obviously this is where your point about Abomasnow stems. However, that's missing a huge portion of the picture. Abomasnow isn't even in the top 4 Blizzard Spammers. I'm also sure you don't need me to point out that Snow Cloak is not effected by an Abomasnow ban. You still have Hail, you still have Snow Cloak, you still have all of the Snow Cloak Pokemon along with the most prominent Blizzard Spammers.

As you can tell, most people would agree with Snow Cloak being the more broken of the two, but if they were dead even, you can't just one broken aspect of something, leave another broken aspect, and expect the ban to work as intended.

If BlizzSpam was the only reason (or even the main reason) for a hail-targeted ban, then maybe Abomasnow wouldn't be a poor choice. However, it isn't and banning Abomasnow makes absolutely no sense with that in mind.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Actually no. While that is a legitimate argument, that is not my argument. What I'm saying is that if we ban Abomasnow, then maybe Hail will be on a level comparable to that of Sand. Like I said before, if more people used Sand, this wouldn't be a problem. However, there's not a lot of things going for it at the moment. Hippopotas is weak to both of Abomasnow's STAB moves and can't hit hard enough to compensate. While you can't really switch in on a Blizzard, you can at least change the weather and cut its accuracy in half.

Now, a Snover vs. Hippopotas situation would play out very differently. Instead of using a powerful STAB move, Snover can only SubSeed now. I also think that people who could have used Sand are just simply not putting the effort necessary to counter it. While unorthodox now, Focus Sash Dugtrio with Sandstorm and Reversal could be the perfect counter to an offensive Abomasnow, and may become the new standard.

Plus, some things may be coming down soon that will be able to stop Hail. The main thing I'm looking at is Bronzong. If Chansey stays, which doesn't look likely, then the two of them will be able to single-handedly be abl to completely counter Hail. Bronzong has great defensive stats along with STAB Gyro Ball. It also resists Blizzard and can't be hit by Mamoswine. Getting Wishes passed to that is gonna make it very hard for Hail to get past.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Now, a Snover vs. Hippopotas situation would play out very differently. Instead of using a powerful STAB move, Snover can only SubSeed now. I also think that people who could have used Sand are just simply not putting the effort necessary to counter it. While unorthodox now, Focus Sash Dugtrio with Sandstorm and Reversal could be the perfect counter to an offensive Abomasnow, and may become the new standard.

I've covered this before. Tldr hail / sand is not comparable in this regard.

Plus, some things may be coming down soon that will be able to stop Hail. The main thing I'm looking at is Bronzong. If Chansey stays, which doesn't look likely, then the two of them will be able to single-handedly be abl to completely counter Hail. Bronzong has great defensive stats along with STAB Gyro Ball. It also resists Blizzard and can't be hit by Mamoswine. Getting Wishes passed to that is gonna make it very hard for Hail to get past.

Bronzong is 3hko'd by Specs Glaceon in hail and fails to ohko back with Gyro Ball (assuming it even hits) meaning it loses. Mamoswine can just Superpower which does an average total of 85% over 2 hits (accounting for the attack drop). And these are Pokemon that bronzong is ostensibly meant to counter - Abomasnow stalls you out with leech seed, Froslass gets full hazards on you and stalls you out, Rotom-F flat out 2hkos with Thunderbolt...
Moreover, Bronzong does not have instant recovery which, combined with the new sleep mechanics, make it extremely unreliable as a hail counter.

I see people making this mistake quite a lot, especially people who have little experience with high-level hail teams. Just because something resists Ice and is bulky, or has a STAB that's SE against Ice, doesn't make it a hail counter. In practical conditions, the number of Pokemon that can reliably switch in against and pose a threat to a hail team are quire rare. This is further compounded by the fact that even if you get something like Escavalier in safely, even your 100% accurate attacks have stone edge level accuracy due to Snow Cloak.

 

[SJCrew]

You're missing the point SJCrew. Stealth Rock is clearly so entrenched in the metagame that banning it will have dramatic consequences that will not only overhaul the tier, it will throw all the tiers out of sync (imagine OU with SR not banned and UU with SR banned, etc). But the real question is why hail is so different from Stealth Rock. Like I showed you, the reasons you exhibited can equally apply to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. Here, take a look.

I didn't miss any of your points, to be frank, you really only made one. Why ban hail when entry hazards are just as centralizing?!? Two good responses were made to that argument and you took the time to address neither. I see no further reason to humor you further on the subject.

FYI, Snow Cloak <-> Sand Veil, and Snow Warning <-> Sand Stream.

No comment. Seriously, it's like you don't even read the thread or play UU.

 

[alexwolf]

Actually no. While that is a legitimate argument, that is not my argument. What I'm saying is that if we ban Abomasnow, then maybe Hail will be on a level comparable to that of Sand. Like I said before, if more people used Sand, this wouldn't be a problem. However, there's not a lot of things going for it at the moment. Hippopotas is weak to both of Abomasnow's STAB moves and can't hit hard enough to compensate. While you can't really switch in on a Blizzard, you can at least change the weather and cut its accuracy in half.

Now, a Snover vs. Hippopotas situation would play out very differently. Instead of using a powerful STAB move, Snover can only SubSeed now. I also think that people who could have used Sand are just simply not putting the effort necessary to counter it. While unorthodox now, Focus Sash Dugtrio with Sandstorm and Reversal could be the perfect counter to an offensive Abomasnow, and may become the new standard.

Plus, some things may be coming down soon that will be able to stop Hail. The main thing I'm looking at is Bronzong. If Chansey stays, which doesn't look likely, then the two of them will be able to single-handedly be abl to completely counter Hail. Bronzong has great defensive stats along with STAB Gyro Ball. It also resists Blizzard and can't be hit by Mamoswine. Getting Wishes passed to that is gonna make it very hard for Hail to get past.

It has already been discussed and explained very well by Heysup but i will explain it again.

First of all i will asume that Snow Cloak is the biggest problem with Hail,simply because this is what most people say. Blizzspam comes second.
The matter with Snow Cloak is that WHEN you face it,you don't have control over the situation.
While without Abomasnow,Hail teams would be used less,the fact that whenever i face a hail team,i will be hoping for my attacks to hit doesn't make it any less frustrating and uncompetitive.
I don't know which one of us enjoys playing a match against a Hail team,with or without Abomasnow the main problem remains, with 2-3 Snow Cloak abusers or not,but i surely don't.
When the entire game comes down to how many free turns your opponent will get from Snow Cloak,no matter how much you outplayed him,then you realize that something is surely wrong!
And that something is Snow Cloak!

 

[shrang]

Abomasnow? Really? Why?

Evolite Snover is about as bulky as Aboma (slightly less physically, slightly more specially) meaning it can pull off a Leech Seed set about as well. Better, actually, due to lower HP. Abomasnow isn't threatening on those dumb hail teams that use sash aboma, it's threatening because the leech seed variants use the bulky waters and normals that can stand up to Blizzard as setup fodder. Imo banning Abomasnow isn't nearly analogous to banning Big hippo - Snover can still counter Milotic, Blastoise, Slowbro, Empoleon, etc the same way Abomasnow can. The only thing we're doing is forcing hail to run a defensive weather starter instead of using it as a suboptimal offensive Pokemon.

If someone has logs of the arguments used for the senate to come to this conclusion, I would be very interested in seeing them.

Honestly, I'd say either get rid of Snow Warning, Snow Cloak, or do a complex ban with both. I don't think getting rid of Aboma will balance hail, this isn't 4th gen.

But Eviolite Snover is nowhere near as strong as Abomasnow, and doesn't get Leftovers, so it isn't as good. I don't think we should go that drastic a step as to ban Snow Warning altogether first. Banning Abomasnow may not stop Hail abuse, but it will certainly nerf it. I like to use the Drought in OU example a lot. There's a reason that sun is shit in OU, because Ninetales is bleedy horrible. Snover is not very good, even though it may be okay. Abomasnow is great because not only is it bulky, but it can hit hard too (in UU, at least). Snover can't hit hard at all. An uninvested Blizzard does fucking jack shit. What can it do to Sub *insert Poke here*? If the *insert Poke* is any bulky, then jack shit. Banning Abomasnow would be a good first step to try out, if it doesn't work, then you can go and Snow Warning altogether if you want.

Banning Abomasnow would mean we still have a taste in hail, but if you want to run it, you'll have to shoot yourself in the foot first.

 

[Furosuto]

Since I'm too lazy to look through 18 pages of comments, here's what I think.

If we ban abomasnow, that doesn't exactly solve the problem. We still have to deal with the fact that snover can come in and set up as well. While abomasnow can actually do things, it's not enough to actually ban it. It's his ability that makes us want to ban it, but then snover comes in and sits there doing nothing. Except most likely you will get the same results. Blizzspam and snow cloak hax.

If we ban abomasnow, then we will most likely still have the same results when abomasnow was in UU. Because snow cloak is still wreaking havoc in UU.

 

[FlareBlitz]

But Eviolite Snover is nowhere near as strong as Abomasnow, and doesn't get Leftovers, so it isn't as good. I don't think we should go that drastic a step as to ban Snow Warning altogether first.

It's not drastic. We know what the problem with hail is, and that problem is not the ~50% power increase Abomasnow has over Snover. I admit that I would prefer to ban Snow Cloak first, which also soft bans many of hail's most prominent abusers, but Snow Warning is the next best compromise.

I like to use the Drought in OU example a lot. There's a reason that sun is shit in OU, because Ninetales is bleedy horrible

Drought is bad in OU because dragons shit on it and Ninetales has a horrible matchup against both Politoed and Tyranitar, meaning all other weather teams shit on it too.
Weather starters do sometimes have an impact on the viability of a weather type (see hippowodon) but it has to be a demonstrable, obvious impact. In Hippowodon case, it handled a substantial number of Pokemon that gave Sand trouble in a way that baby hippo can't. Abomasnow's only purpose on a hail team is setting hail, switching in on bulky waters to force them out, and being death fodder. Snover performs all of these roles just fine.

Snover can't hit hard at all. An uninvested Blizzard does fucking jack shit. What can it do to Sub *insert Poke here*? If the *insert Poke* is any bulky, then jack shit. Banning Abomasnow would be a good first step to try out, if it doesn't work, then you can go and Snow Warning altogether if you want.

Nothing that doesn't resist ice can sub up on snover (even mismagius has her sub handily broken), and anything that does resist ice can sub up on abomasnow too (unless it's like...durant -___-)

I'm sure there are situations where using abomasnow results in an advantage where using snover doesn't - obviously, aboma is a better pokemon. But these situations are uncommon enough that "nerfing" hail by only banning the little christmas tree will still leave us with a tier replete with the playstyle.

 

[casey90]

I would like to begin this post by saying I mean no disrespect to any of the individual council members.

I'm posting here to ask the council about the current ban we (you) have here on the table. I would like to ask you all why we seem to be attacking the entirety of hail as opposed to just snow cloak, or abomasnow? Having read the entire megathread beginning to end, I would like to point out that while the council seems so intent on banning the playstyle, a large portion of the community, at least in the megathread seem to be against an outright ban at this point in time. I am on the side of the Anti Snow-Cloakers, and have failed to see the "logic" you've presented about an outright ban. The blizzspam I continue to hear about seems to be the excuse. I'd like to ask though what differentiates type stacking a 120 BP move from any other type doing the same thing? Are Blizzard and it's abusers really that much more powerful than fire type stacking with Flare Blitz and Fire blast? More so than bug type with Megahorn and Tinted lense Bug Buzz? Fighting with Close Combat? Add the that fact that ice types are hazard weak, as well as riddled with weaknesses. What makes these blizzspam team too much to handle? Having played on the ladder since the beginning, I've barely even seen it since the days of Kyurem. Are combinations of Aboma, Froslass, Glaceon, Mamoswine, Cryogonal, and Rotom-F really to overpowered? For one thing they all have relatively mediocre stats, coupled with poor typings defensively. They either lack speed or power, Froslass has high speed, but 80 Sp. Att. and 70/70/70 defenses don't do it favors without it's precious snow cloak. Glaceon peaks at 209 speed with modest, and still has trouble with Lax, Milotic, Empoleon, Suicune etc. Mamoswine is a fucking monster true, but doesn't even use blizzard, and is still only moderately fast. I'm only saying this to make the point, so I won't analyze each poke. Once again though how is this so much better than other type stacking?

The other arguments I've heard are the freezehax issue, and the "unhealthy metagame" issue. The freezehax issue, I'll admit there isn't really an argument against, but at the same time there isn't really an argument for it either, a 10% chance is hardly more centralizing than the 30% burn rate of scald, or the 1/16 (I think?) chance to get a critical hit. As to the unhealthy metagame question, it is the passive damage that hail deals? Is it that people don't want a metagame with weather being so dominant? I understand the ladder to a certain extent, but I was under the impression that we banned things due to them being broken, not irritating. An analogy here would be to 4th gen OU, which due to tyranitars dominance brought with him an eternal sandstorm, but nobody complained there. Is our current situation so different than that though?

Personally I believe we should go back to the old "voting reqs" system, but that's for another time. The reason I bring it up however is that there seems to be will to not ban SW outright and go for a more pragmatic solution, and the council seems so far to dismiss every argument thrown there way. I personally find this a little offensive, like everyone else simply has to take your word for it on hail, and we seem to be too ignorant to realize how bad blizzspam really is. If that turns out to be true, then so be it, we'll ban hail then, but why can't we just wait until we've removed Snow Cloak or Abomasnow?

 

[Heysup]

I would like to begin this post by saying I mean no disrespect to any of the individual council members.

I'm posting here to ask the council about the current ban we (you) have here on the table. I would like to ask you all why we seem to be attacking the entirety of hail as opposed to just snow cloak, or abomasnow? Having read the entire megathread beginning to end, I would like to point out that while the council seems so intent on banning the playstyle, a large portion of the community, at least in the megathread seem to be against an outright ban at this point in time. I am on the side of the Anti Snow-Cloakers, and have failed to see the "logic" you've presented about an outright ban. The blizzspam I continue to hear about seems to be the excuse. I'd like to ask though what differentiates type stacking a 120 BP move from any other type doing the same thing? Are Blizzard and it's abusers really that much more powerful than fire type stacking with Flare Blitz and Fire blast? More so than bug type with Megahorn and Tinted lense Bug Buzz? Fighting with Close Combat? Add the that fact that ice types are hazard weak, as well as riddled with weaknesses. What makes these blizzspam team too much to handle? Having played on the ladder since the beginning, I've barely even seen it since the days of Kyurem. Are combinations of Aboma, Froslass, Glaceon, Mamoswine, Cryogonal, and Rotom-F really to overpowered? For one thing they all have relatively mediocre stats, coupled with poor typings defensively. They either lack speed or power, Froslass has high speed, but 80 Sp. Att. and 70/70/70 defenses don't do it favors without it's precious snow cloak. Glaceon peaks at 209 speed with modest, and still has trouble with Lax, Milotic, Empoleon, Suicune etc. Mamoswine is a fucking monster true, but doesn't even use blizzard, and is still only moderately fast. I'm only saying this to make the point, so I won't analyze each poke. Once again though how is this so much better than other type stacking?

Personally I disagree with banning Snow Warning over Snow Cloak, but there is clear logic to banning both. The logic is (you seem to understand it, contrary to what you say) that there is more to hail than just Snow Cloak.

What I don't understand is your counter argument. I mean, it's one thing to say that 120 BP moves are good but not broken, but your argument reaches a point of fallacy when you start comparing Hail + Blizzard to Fire Blast and Megahorn. Those are completely different; they can't freeze (please don't try and argue that burn is the same....), they miss, they aren't Ice-typed (better for spamming in UU than either of those) and there isn't field condition that adds 6.25% to every attack. What's more similar, actually, is SolarBeam from Sunny Day teams. Notice how that was banned a long time ago.

Personally I believe we should go back to the old "voting reqs" system, but that's for another time. The reason I bring it up however is that there seems to be will to not ban SW outright and go for a more pragmatic solution, and the council seems so far to dismiss every argument thrown there way. I personally find this a little offensive, like everyone else simply has to take your word for it on hail, and we seem to be too ignorant to realize how bad blizzspam really is. If that turns out to be true, then so be it, we'll ban hail then, but why can't we just wait until we've removed Snow Cloak or Abomasnow?

No argument was dismissed, they were just countered. We had to rank which suspect we thought to vote on for hail, some people chose Snow Cloak, Snow Cloak + Snow Warning Combo, and some people chose Snow Warning. The thing is that the next option we ranked for all of us was Snow Warning. Keep in mind this was over Froslass (makes utterly no sense), Abomasnow (as explained numerous times, makes no sense), and maybe some unpopular other.

I actually have not seen a single council member say anything but "I'd personally rather ban <X> than Snow Warning, but that's the next best option" or "Snow Warning is the clear choice for reasons X, Y, and Z." No dismissing.

I find it surprising that even knowing the qualifications for being a senate member that you still think we are doing things that are not best for the community. Unless your view of best of the community is the same as "what the vocal people in the forum are ranting about", which seems likely.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Are Blizzard and it's abusers really that much more powerful than fire type stacking with Flare Blitz and Fire blast? More so than bug type with Megahorn and Tinted lense Bug Buzz? Fighting with Close Combat?

Think about this paragraph for a second. You're comparing Blizzard, a drawback free move with perfect accuracy, excellent coverage and a 10% chance of completely fucking any counters, to Flare Blitz (recoil, several dangerous immunities) Megahorn (large number of resists, imperfect accuracy), Tinted Lens Bug Buzz (found on yanmega and venomoth.....yeah) and Close Combat (several immunities, resists, drops defenses after each use).
What made you think these moves were comparable?

What makes these blizzspam team too much to handle? Having played on the ladder since the beginning, I've barely even seen it since the days of Kyurem. Are combinations of Aboma, Froslass, Glaceon, Mamoswine, Cryogonal, and Rotom-F really to overpowered?

I was going to ask about your laddering experience, but if this is what you consider typical of a hail team, I think I can already guess.
The most dangerous hail teams, the ones we consider to be uncompetitive, are not mono-ice. They have several Pokemon that severely punish any attempt to take advantage of common hail users - for example, I used Shell Smash Omastar and Golurk during my brief and dirty affair with hail, both of which caused massive problems to any team relying on spamming fire or fighting type attacks. BlizzSpam is considered a problematic playstyle precisely because of how relatively easy it is to get away with using the same move over and over again, due to Snow Cloak, residual damage, and the availability of Pokemon who do a good job of checking ice resists.

The reason I bring it up however is that there seems to be will to not ban SW outright and go for a more pragmatic solution, and the council seems so far to dismiss every argument thrown there way. I personally find this a little offensive, like everyone else simply has to take your word for it on hail, and we seem to be too ignorant to realize how bad blizzspam really is. If that turns out to be true, then so be it, we'll ban hail then, but why can't we just wait until we've removed Snow Cloak or Abomasnow?

I don't know if you were around like a week ago, but the council evaluated several options when it comes to this. In fact, the original plan was to simply ban Abomasnow. But after a pretty significant outcry from the community, it was decided that the best way to go would be to ban Snow Warning.
What can you learn from this?
1) Claims that the council is disconnected from the wishes of the community are entirely baseless.
2) Several aspects of hail were evaluated and debated.
3) Ultimately, the decision to evaluate Snow Warning was reached as a compromise.
4) Snow Warning was debated on IRC and in this thread. The arguments opposed to banning it were and continue to be unpersuasive.
5) Therefore, snow warning will be banned.

 

[casey90]

well I concede Heysup, thank you for clearing this up for me, I do trust the council's decision will be the best one, I just wanted confirmation that every option was being (seriously) considered.

btw flareblitz I wasn't saying that those six pokemon were a typical hail team, I was saying that a combination of them in tandem with other types. I've also been consistently top 20 on the UU ladder and have gone toe to toe with many distinguished players. But Thank you also flareblitz for the clarification on my questions.

 

[Banedon]

I find it surprising that even knowing the qualifications for being a senate member that you still think we are doing things that are not best for the community. Unless your view of best of the community is the same as "what the vocal people in the forum are ranting about", which seems likely.

On the other hand, when a certain senate member I won't name has said something similar to "it's difficult to OHKO Deoxys-D while it sets up spikes" as an argument for banning Spikes, there is reason for concern.

It's too late to change things though. I just wish collectively the senate can provide good reasons for their decisions. Bring up how Blizzard is the perfect attack in hail, bring up how so few Pokemon are immune to hail, bring up how Milotic can wall Blizzspam but if it gets frozen it is toast, bring up how ridiculous Froslass is with Thunder Wave and Sub abusing Snow Cloak, etc. Just don't have things like "hail disadvantages slow pokemon weak to Ice like Rhyperior, so we should ban Snow Warning" in the paragraphs ...

 

[alexwolf]

@Heysup and FlareBlitz

While i agree that those who want Snow Warning banned gave solid arguments,as i said a lot of times we cannot look at things clearly now with Snow Cloak distorting the meta.
How are we supposed to evaluate if Blizzspam is broken or not when games that are supposed to be won or lost,have different outcome because of Snow Cloak?
Hail right now is dominant because of many factors,but i think that Snow Cloak is the most influencial and this is what we should remove first.

Also it is true that the majority of the players believe that the problem lies in Snow Cloak and not in Snow Warning in general. Just take a look at this whole megathread and you will see it!

 

[Heysup]

@Heysup and FlareBlitz

While i agree that those who want Snow Warning banned gave solid arguments,as i said a lot of times we cannot look at things clearly now with Snow Cloak distorting the meta.
How are we supposed to evaluate if Blizzspam is broken or not when games that are supposed to be won or lost,have different outcome because of Snow Cloak?
Hial right now is dominant because of many factors,but i think that Snow Cloak is the most influencial and this is what we should remove first.

All this compromise is doing is including all factors in a ban. Think about it for a second. If we only focus on Snow Cloak, it will likely not even get banned. Would you rather us focus on all of hail as opposed to just one aspect that some senate members don't find broken in particular? I certainly hope not. That is why most of us are saying we don't "love" the Snow Warning ban, but we agree it's the next best option.

Also it is true that the majority of the players believe that the problem lies in Snow Cloak and not in Snow Warning in general. Just take a look at this whole megathread and you will see it!

You aren't considering significant aspects of suspect testing in general. People who post on the forum: vocal minority. This megathread of people saying one thing or another does not mean that "most people" think anything. This is a huge advantage that having a senate brings. We don't need to rely on a vocal minority of users in the megathread for the right decision, we just have a group of qualified users do it.

On the other hand, when a certain senate member I won't name has said something similar to "it's difficult to OHKO Deoxys-D while it sets up spikes" as an argument for banning Spikes, there is reason for concern.

It's too late to change things though. I just wish collectively the senate can provide good reasons for their decisions. Bring up how Blizzard is the perfect attack in hail, bring up how so few Pokemon are immune to hail, bring up how Milotic can wall Blizzspam but if it gets frozen it is toast, bring up how ridiculous Froslass is with Thunder Wave and Sub abusing Snow Cloak, etc. Just don't have things like "hail disadvantages slow pokemon weak to Ice like Rhyperior, so we should ban Snow Warning" in the paragraphs ...

I'm confused as to why you think our paragraphs are going to include so many irrelevant points or exclude so many relevant ones. I don't think we did this even remotely close to the degree you're suggesting in the past.

 

[Banedon]

I'm confused as to why you think our paragraphs are going to include so many irrelevant points or exclude so many relevant ones. I don't think we did this even remotely close to the degree you're suggesting in the past.

Yeah I didn't either until I actually saw it happening @_@

Also would it be possible if you guys can include in your paragraphs why you are banning Snow Warning (if you're banning Snow Warning, anyway) instead of Abomasnow / Snow Cloak etc?

 

[alexwolf]

All this compromise is doing is including all factors in a ban. Think about it for a second. If we only focus on Snow Cloak, it will likely not even get banned. Would you rather us focus on all of hail as opposed to just one aspect that some senate members don't find broken in particular? I certainly hope not. That is why most of us are saying we don't "love" the Snow Warning ban, but we agree it's the next best option..

Well, i prefer focusing on the main problem,and then if it doesn't get banned we can move on to the next one.It's not like if Snow Cloak doesn't get banned(either by simple ban or combo ban),that we can't make anymore suspects...
Also even if i said that Hail is dominant for many reasons,the reason that pushes Hail over the fence and makes it broken is Snow Cloak.So it is clear that my problem is Snow Cloak inside Hail and not Hail. Can't you see why i cannot stand Snow Warning being the primary suspect?
Because for me,it is not the source of the problem.I don't want Hail banned because it is an entire playstyle of which we have no concrete evidence of being broken.
If we first decided to make a suspect Snow Cloak / Snow Cloak + Snow Warning and it didn't get banned it will be cool for me,since it would at least have gotten a chance to be banned.
But now we disregard the main problem,and we are heading to a solution with huge collateral damage.

You aren't considering significant aspects of suspect testing in general. People who post on the forum: vocal minority. This megathread of people saying one thing or another does not mean that "most people" think anything. This is a huge advantage that having a senate brings. We don't need to rely on a vocal minority of users in the megathread for the right decision, we just have a group of qualified users do it.

I know that not everyone posts here but it is one of the few ways you senate members can learn people's opinion.And if i remember right isn't the senate ought to bring suspects after discussing them in public. So if the majority of the people in the megathread,and in the forums in general,don't want Snow Warning banned and prefer Snow Cloak banned,i cannot understand why you should ignore them... Don't we chose the suspects,with your help,and you chose what gets banned?

 

[JoyceyMaster]

Personally, I think that by banning Snow Warning that we're essentially dealing with all these problems (BlizzSpam/SnowCloak) at once, as if SW is banned, I can't imagine any Hail+Icy Rock teams popping up...
It may kill a playstyle, but let's be fair; if the two issues were banned leaving just hail, would anyone actually use it?
AKA Does anyone use hail without using BlizzSpam or Snow cloak nowerdays?