I'm starting to see a lot of Tickle Wobbu everywhere.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
So I'm guessing the opponent brings in Wobb on something it can stall out for a few turns, tickles + possible encores and then switches to a poke to take it out via pursuit?
Finally got to 1356 after not Disconnecting every 4 matches as usual. I also watched a couple matches.
I saw Chansey wall Rhyperior and Staraptor.......it's absurd that something that walls almost every Special Attacker ALSO walls some of the hardest hitting physical attackers. I'd vote BL for Chansey forsure.
People are getting lazy and using Hail and SmashPass for easy ladder wins. The algorithmic teams are always going to be popular on the ladder I guess but doesn't it suck being so one dimensional? Hail has some very prominent weaknesses and SmashPass, while a little harder to deal with, does as well. If you don't carry them they'll likely get a free win, but i don't see the logic in not countering teams like that.
I still haven't seen a good user of WobbTrio......
I saw Chansey wall Rhyperior and Staraptor.......it's absurd that something that walls almost every Special Attacker ALSO walls some of the hardest hitting physical attackers. I'd vote BL for Chansey forsure.
People are getting lazy and using Hail and SmashPass for easy ladder wins. The algorithmic teams are always going to be popular on the ladder I guess but doesn't it suck being so one dimensional? Hail has some very prominent weaknesses and SmashPass, while a little harder to deal with, does as well. If you don't carry them they'll likely get a free win, but i don't see the logic in not countering teams like that.
I still haven't seen a good user of WobbTrio......
Or, in the style of WobbTrio, you Tickle it, switch in Dugtrio and get an easy kill. Switch out, then repeat.
Yeah, I die a little inside every time I have to switch my Staraptor out of a Chansey. Fortunately it seems to be getting less common due to the surge of wobbuffet. Also, I really have to ask this, why the fuck are people throwing out CB Earthquakes with Dugtrio in this metagame!? That's like begging for Staraptor to come in and fuck your shit up.
I haven't been seeing very much hail at all though, and the teams I have been seeing are easily manageable. SmashPass still hasn't beaten me to any significant degree, although a standard baton pass team kicked my ass a couple of times (entirely due to misplays on my part, so don't think I'm saying "ban bp plz"). Agreeing with others that Espeon is just really gay on those teams.
UU is breaking my heart right now. The reason I stopped playing OU was so I didn't have to deal with bog-standard teams every game, but honestly UU is more centralized now than OU is. There is little enough metagame diversity that I've taken to abandoning my most successful team and trolling around with old forgotten favorites like Sceptile and Aggron (both of whom have been reasonably good, by the way). It's sad that I have to screw around with barely-viable teams to derive any enjoyment out of the ladder, but hey, at least it'll probably get better after this round.
UU's problem isn't bog standard teams, it's just that we're letting too many unbalanced strategies/Pokemon get off scott free. Victini and Staraptor definitely should have been banned right now, and the more I see them, the less I want to play. This Wobbuffet bullshit need to end too (though admittedly, I care less about Wobb than I do about Victini and Staraptor directly and outright murdering my teams).
While I agree, sort of, with Staraptor, I'm curious as to how you still think Victini is broken with so many Pokemon checking it with entry hazards making it's life terrible. It's also so very vulnerable to Pursuit it honestly seems like it's made to be the ultimate Pursuit bait with -Spe and Def on attack. I think Arcanine is better.......
Do you still not carry something to switch into them? You only need to tank a couple of attacks since both are weak to Stealth Rock and don't have recovery (bar SubRoost Raptor). If you're having that much trouble with either of them use Rotom-H or Rhyperior (or both?). Sorry if I sound condescending but I genuinely think at least Victini is being blown out of proportion.
I don't think im ever going to understand the whole Wobbuffet ordeal either.
I'm fine and I don't use Wobbuffet, Chansey, SmashPass, Staraptor, or Victini.
I noticed a few people today starting to wise up and use Mixed Victini (that and I've been using one for almost the entire round). It has considerably less checks and no counters. I thought it was starting to fly under the radar this round with the introduction of more ridiculous strategies, but every time I see it, I just hate it more and more. We have a lot of work to do.
Here's the one I use:
Victini @ LO
252 Sp. Att/252 Speed
V-create
Focus Blast
Thunder
Psychic
Here is the one everyone else is using:
V-create
Grass Knot (sucks)
Psychic
???
Thunder is better for OHKOing Slowbro and 2HKOing Milotic where Grass Knot fails to do the latter. It also doesn't fail against lightweight bulky Water types or anything else that may happen to come in. Focus Blast kills any Houndoom thinking it can Pursuit you, not to mention Rhyperior, and Psychic doubles as both a second reliable STAB and a way to hit Arcanine.
Arcanine is also very sad that it has to miss out on that crucial base 100 Speed tier, and have virtually no way past Milotic nor Slowbro without having to predict extremely well and kill itself with CB Wild Charge. If you are not using a Choice Band or Defensive variant of Arcanine, you're probably just using an inferior Victini.
Here's the one I use:
Victini @ LO
252 Sp. Att/252 Speed
V-create
Focus Blast
Thunder
Psychic
Here is the one everyone else is using:
V-create
Grass Knot (sucks)
Psychic
???
Thunder is better for OHKOing Slowbro and 2HKOing Milotic where Grass Knot fails to do the latter. It also doesn't fail against lightweight bulky Water types or anything else that may happen to come in. Focus Blast kills any Houndoom thinking it can Pursuit you, not to mention Rhyperior, and Psychic doubles as both a second reliable STAB and a way to hit Arcanine.
Arcanine is also very sad that it has to miss out on that crucial base 100 Speed tier, and have virtually no way past Milotic nor Slowbro without having to predict extremely well and kill itself with CB Wild Charge. If you are not using a Choice Band or Defensive variant of Arcanine, you're probably just using an inferior Victini.
How come none of you guys use Work Up on Mixtini? Seriously it moves Slowbro and Milotic to ohkos and powers up V-Create to absolutely retarded levels.
I don't think Victini is broken, but if I were using stall or slower offense I know it would give me on hell of a headache...but probably far less so than Mew, Deo-D, and other pseudo-suspects.
I think we need to get Staraptor and Chansey out before we can move on to the more debatable suspects.
I don't think Victini is broken, but if I were using stall or slower offense I know it would give me on hell of a headache...but probably far less so than Mew, Deo-D, and other pseudo-suspects.
I think we need to get Staraptor and Chansey out before we can move on to the more debatable suspects.
I WISH I could say that mew and Deo-D were broken :( but with pokes like Heracross, Escavilier, and houndoom running around all with high usages, everyone would say otherwise...lol i say this because for some reason everytime I make a team one of them is a 6-0 counter
And that's a good question...WHY DOES NO ONE USE WORK UP!?! I didnt even know Victini had that in its movepool O_o
Work Up isn't that good because Victini often ends up beating most of its checks through outright attacking and superior coverage. I can imagine foregoing Psychic for Work Up, coverage-wise at least, but I don't like recklessly spamming V-create to do damage if I can help it. It's threatening enough as a special sweeper that you usually don't have to bring out the big guns until it's do-or-die.
There's this move called ExtremeSpeed and it's awesome. Victini doesn't get it. It also gets access to Close Combat which is way better than a bound-to-miss-and-get-you-Pursuited/KOed Focus Blast. It also has Intimidate/Flash Fire making it substantially more effective at absorbing incoming attacks (Victini can't switch into shit) which works very well with Roost. It also isn't Pursuit bait. Victini predicts right and gets a good kill on one of my mons? Well that's all it's doing! Arcanine? Still there and just as strong as it was before the kill.
I don't even use Wild Charge, I just use a Grass-type with it, and they hit VERY hard with the right set (SD Celebi, LORoserade, etc). Hard to the point that you really don't want them to come in.
So I guess it's my opinion that I completely disagree with your last statement, but the factual benefits of Arcanine cannot be ignored when coming to that conclusion.
(Sorry that it's always your posts I'm responding to I just seem to disagree with them.........)
Work up is the difference between continually sweeping a stall / balance team and having to switch out after getting a "surprise" or prediction-based kill. Here is how it goes down:
SJCrew Victini comes in on (insert non threatening mon like Chansey) and predicts the Milotic switch in and nails it with Thunder. Milotic is in KO range of another Thunder. Milotic has two options: (a) it can switch out and try and come back in at a better time to recover or (b) it can play it safe, stay in and force you out with Rhyperior or Donphan or Paralyze you with Deoxys-D or maybe defensive Arcanine or maybe Sucker Punch Top etc.
FlareBlitz's Victini comes in on the same target in the same situation. This time it doesn't need to predict, and it uses Work Up and Milotic comes in. It OHKOes Milotic if it stays in, but now it can't be forced out by something that can take that one more powerful attack. The only way out of this for the stall team with out embarrassingly outplaying the Victini player is to sacrifice a Pokemon to make it use V-Create twice and try to outspeed it....this means two dead mons at least.
Against stall I don't see how they are even comparable. I would straight up never use the regular mixed set unless I was bluffing Scarf because it's bad vs offense and suboptimal vs stall compared to Work Up.
Again just my opinion.
NO. Your opinion is wrong and as an aside, I think it's also worth noting that Milotic is still not faster after a V-create, so even if I mispredict, it just has to be in KO range to take a Thunder. Fortunately, Slowbro is a pussy when it comes to special attacks, and has like a .0001% chance of surviving Thunder after rocks. Milotic is the only major problem Victini has to face these days, admittedly, but like most things that try to kill Victini, it's a surmountable obstacle.
Let's just get it right and vote it out this time ok.
Let's just get it right and vote it out this time ok.
Is it me or am i seeing more Choice Banded/life orb Victini than choice scarf versions?? I think people are realzing that victini needs more power now
also....
THE SIMI-MONKEYS ARE BLOODY AWESOME!!! hahaha made a believer outta some people tonight...why are they NOT used more?
101 base speed-which makes a huge difference!
98 decent special attack
pretty good sweeping movepool..STAB + grass knot + focus blast and the best part is Nasty plot..seriously why not?!
also....
THE SIMI-MONKEYS ARE BLOODY AWESOME!!! hahaha made a believer outta some people tonight...why are they NOT used more?
101 base speed-which makes a huge difference!
98 decent special attack
pretty good sweeping movepool..STAB + grass knot + focus blast and the best part is Nasty plot..seriously why not?!
They're pretty outclassed, is the problem. Simisage has to deal with both Shaymin and Celebi, Simisear has Charizard and Victini, and Simipour has Empoleon and Milotic.
I mean, I understand I'm leaning a LOT on their roles (The monkeys are supposed to be sweepers, I get that), but from how fragile they are... They're probably just overlooked on that regard.
Its called Chansey which makes everything special look pathetic XD - who can also surprisingly survive a V-Create from a max attack + flame plate boost its shocking how much abuse that thing can endure on the physical spectrum. Though another issue with the monkeys I think are that they're just too frail as well.
Edit: Its ability doesn't help either, even more so that most pinch berries are unavailable. I could see them getting use at RU but not much for UU.
simisage does better than shaymin in terms of physical and special sweeping on the count of faster...yes 101 base speed makes a big difference..and it has low kick and rock slide on the physical set to deal with those pesky steels and flying types..on the sweeper set it gets Nasty plot but the shaymin has it on the coverage moves..
empoleon and milotic are mostly bulky waters before sweepers...Simipour beats them both on the sweeper department because of faster speed and NP...empoleon uses agility but no way to boost its special attacks other than Torrent..and milotic uses bulk to sweep
Simisear is defintely the most contreversial of the three...beats charizard though because it gets grass knot which KOs all bulky waters after one NP and SR, something not many fire types (at least in UU) can boast about..and vs victini that 101 base speed comes in handy again..and it does have NP something most fire types wish they had..
The frailness is something to be desire and makes them wish they were KOed by a stick
Heck yeah chansey is an issue lol chansey makes almost any special sweeper unviable..but a weakened or gone chansey allows these monkeys to sweep soo much easier..until their DW abilities are released their abilities now shouldnt really matter as they should always carrying a life orb or if you want choiced...but pinch berries would make them lose so much power
If you wanted a Grass-type to Physical sweep with, there's always Sawsbuck, who even gets a Chlorophyll boost if there's Sun on the field, and has a slight edge in coverage. That, and Shaymin is bulkier than Simisage, which means, while the monkey would easily be revenge killed by a Priority move, Shaymin can still tank some hits, and heal up with Synthesis (Assuming Sun, again)
Honestly, I think you're overhyping Nasty Plot a lot. It is a great move, yes, but the problem is... The monkeys have little survivability, much less a method to get in on some mons. They have their use, yes, but in UU? ... They're just simply not as good as certain mons, sadly enough.
You make it sound like its easy to be rid of her if only it were...XD pinch berries are just there to give them another option. Though I also see their coverage as an issue - and frankly their frailty is also an issue thanks to all the priority now running about (most dangerous being Honchkrow's sucker punch as that would lend him a free power boost) there are tons of good late game sweepers I just don't see them being so different from the rest of the mill. Though I do see them used at RU more often.
limited chloryphyll boosts for sawsbucks...yes shaymin ill agree is a better special sweeper because of superior move coverage and a very good move, seed flare along with synthesis to heal off damage which it can take or just rest and get full HP and come back again...
Nasty plot is yes being overhyped because not many pokes with good speed and special attack and movepool can abuse it...and for UU at the moment the biggest threats are at/below 100 base speed which the monkeys come in for..and here is one scenario just played now where simisear was able to sweep...
Roserade just took out a poke with leaf storm, with a weakened special attack and sleep clause activated, also he has a snorlax at 75%
I switch in my simisear
I nasty plot
while he switches roserade out to Snorlax
Now im a +2 simisear with focus blast..
Focus Blast takes out the snorlax
prepare to sweep
Of course this kind of scenario can work for any sweeper, but the point is they have opportunities to set up :)
EDIT: Yeah priority gives any sweeper problems...lol which is why they are running about, I look mainly at hitmontop and mamoswine...suckerpunch honchkrow relies on prediction, If you can predict 100% right then i'll say fuck it and sweep wtih absol all the time
I don't think it matters anyways because a majority of the set being used is Scarf.
Thanks for remindin' about Rest, for some reason, that didn't click into my head at all. ... Bleh, should be on my A-game in the mornin', huh?
And at least you understand where I'm goin' with this discussion. I don't MEAN to diss the monkeys, not at all, only to point out why they're not used much, not to be antagonistic against them.
- Status