-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
Yeah I think Thund is right I'm predicting SubHera to be the Hera to use since offense is going to have a field day if they manage to lock you into something you don't wanna be locked into. And 85 base speed isn't exactly impossible to outspeed.
And regarding Steelix, I tried him out and he's pretty much Registeel with a better steel attack and Roar. Definitely not downplaying his assets though. Phazing can be a lifesaver to have on those rare occasions where you manage to fit it onto your team.
And regarding Steelix, I tried him out and he's pretty much Registeel with a better steel attack and Roar. Definitely not downplaying his assets though. Phazing can be a lifesaver to have on those rare occasions where you manage to fit it onto your team.
Weezing has Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
Arbok doesn't.
Arbok doesn't.
Shutting up now.
Nas
Banned deucer.
I've found that the CB set is incredibly hard for offense to switch into, as Weezing and Nidoqueen (the only hard CB counters) hardly fit into offensive teams and there are no offensive checks that can switch into all its moves. If you have a general knowledge of your opponents team, its fairly easy to predict a switch to something like Moltres and Stone Edge it to oblivion, and from there Heracross basically gets a free kill every time it switches in.
Being locked into a move is set up fodder for offense. Sure you might score a kill with Stone Edge but then Rhyperior/Aggron gets a free Rock Polish. Or you might score a kill with Megahorn then Moltres starts spamming its beak all over the place. Or Close Combat and then Mismagius gets a free sub.
With sub, you can still kill all 3 of those with the right coverage move. Heracross has enough power to screw over offense with or without Band basically.
I was thinking the sub + 3 attacks is the best option. You can bluff a band to set up a sub. For example, come in on Clefable, Missy switches in on CC expecting a choice lock + free set up, you can sub on the plot/CM and take her out with Night Slash or Stone Edge.
Is anyone else going to put wide lens on Hera?
I'm thinking sub + 3 attacks with Wide lens, seeing as megahorn and Stone edge both have the type of accuracy which will screw you over when you need the move to hit.
And what about HP flying on weezing? or is that too gimmicky or specific for Hera.
I'm thinking sub + 3 attacks with Wide lens, seeing as megahorn and Stone edge both have the type of accuracy which will screw you over when you need the move to hit.
And what about HP flying on weezing? or is that too gimmicky or specific for Hera.
While I agree that Sub+3 Attacks is much more reliable and is much more useful in many situations, SD Guts heracross has the ability to crush near everything in the tier, and while much riskier if it's counters are gone it will rip teams apart.
I wouldn't be surprised if this broke 100 before Hera is implemented on the ladder.
Well, Swellow sounds like a good check, and so does Gligar. Can't wait to see the effects on the metagame.
Well, Swellow sounds like a good check, and so does Gligar. Can't wait to see the effects on the metagame.
Standard physical walls such as tangrowth and leafeon will probably drop in fear of Megahorn, so I'm expecting a rise in DD/SD Feraligatr, subpunch azumarill and maybe even SD sceptile. Don't think Weezing usage will rise, lack of recovery will screw it over and SR will wear it down too. Heracross is gonna break apart and remodel the UU metagame so I bet its gonna shoot back up to BL/OU in a few days.
I have been doing some Calc's and Hera looks pretty ridiculous. I have been Calculating with the Swords Dance + Guts Set and HOLY SHIT, the only thing that can survive any hit from that thing is Weezing with a Physical Defensive spread. Moltres special sweeper spread can survive a Megahorn, but it dies to a Close Combat, a resisted hit... Donphan dies to everything. Uxie sucks a Megahorn. These are some of the best Walls in UU. If there will be any set i will be using it will be that, it destroys UU once faster threats are taken care off. this thing is OP...
Flame Orb + SD is kind of overrated for Heracross, IMO, I'd much rather to use SD Quick Feet Ursaring. It dies too easily to residual damage and is not fast enough. If you want to use SD, I'd say focus on keeping Heracross in slightly longer, be it with bulk, resist berry or just even Leftovers, IMO.
If/when (let's be honest, when) Heracross is banned, it's certainly not going to be for his sweeping prowess. It's going to be because nothing can take a hit from this bug. Seriously, forget guts SD - Nothing can switch into a CB/Plain Guts Megahorn or Close Combat. Mismagius? Raped. Rotom? See Mismagius. Weezing? The best switch in yet... but dies to Guts Facade. Moltres - only Subroost though - can switch in and survive Close Combat barely, but is forced to Roost. This can go either way - if Moltres Roosts and Hera switches in, Hera wins, but if it stays in and Moltres uses Flamethrower, it dies.
I don't see offensive Leafeon dropping though, Heracross has weaker physical defense than Venusaur (80/75 vs 80/82) and Leafeon already OHKOes Venusaur with +2 Lefties Double Edge, so against 4/0 Heracross without a LO boost:
97.7 - 115.2%
Leafeon can also easily be EVed to be faster and will always OHKO with Aerial Ace, so it can come in on any attack bar Megahorn once (CB Close Combat obviously hurts - 75.3 - 88.8% vs 132 HP Leafeon) and outspeed and OHKO back. Obviously not a counter, just a check. The thing about Heracross though is that it's a lot easier to revenge kill for offensive teams than Gallade was - you have the pool of fast frail Ghosts/Psychics that can come in afterwards and revenge kill since it has no Shadow Sneak, and that exploitable 4x Flying weakness means that if you're team is having considerable Heracross problems, you can easily put HP Flying on Rotom or something and effectively check most variants.
Thing about Heracross is that it isn't that fast, and while it hits like a truck, it's also very vulnerable to entry hazards and being worn down by LO/FlameOrb damage, and is not too hard to force out for an offensive team. Rhyperior and Alakazam are all pretty much equally as hard for offensive teams to switch into as Heracross. I'm not saying it's not broken or it is becasue I've most definitely not played with it enough to say one way or the other with any credibility, but I'm just keeping an open mind. I like to "accept" something is UU and then assess its BLness.
EDIT:
97.7 - 115.2%
Leafeon can also easily be EVed to be faster and will always OHKO with Aerial Ace, so it can come in on any attack bar Megahorn once (CB Close Combat obviously hurts - 75.3 - 88.8% vs 132 HP Leafeon) and outspeed and OHKO back. Obviously not a counter, just a check. The thing about Heracross though is that it's a lot easier to revenge kill for offensive teams than Gallade was - you have the pool of fast frail Ghosts/Psychics that can come in afterwards and revenge kill since it has no Shadow Sneak, and that exploitable 4x Flying weakness means that if you're team is having considerable Heracross problems, you can easily put HP Flying on Rotom or something and effectively check most variants.
Thing about Heracross is that it isn't that fast, and while it hits like a truck, it's also very vulnerable to entry hazards and being worn down by LO/FlameOrb damage, and is not too hard to force out for an offensive team. Rhyperior and Alakazam are all pretty much equally as hard for offensive teams to switch into as Heracross. I'm not saying it's not broken or it is becasue I've most definitely not played with it enough to say one way or the other with any credibility, but I'm just keeping an open mind. I like to "accept" something is UU and then assess its BLness.
EDIT:
Playing against choice hera becomes a prediction game then - while it hits like a beast, there are still Pokemon that can come in on some or all of its moves and pose a threat. The Choice versions aren't nearly as big a threat for defensive teams as SD, since Weezing / Nidoqueen can come in on all the attacks, and there are viable Pokemon for offensive teams that come in 3/4 of the attacks (Moltres, Aggron, Arcanine, Scyther, (Golbat), Nidoking, etc). Heracross has the capacity to be impossible to switch in, but with experience and player analysis you can tell if they like to open with stone edge or megahorn or whatever. It's way too early to be saying "if/when (let's be honest, when)" atm.erazor said:
I am going to pray to God that this is not the case. I know Heracross is very likely to get banned, but I would hope that it isn't another one of those Pokemon that is banned because "Oh nothing can switch in safely", better reasoning is needed. Personally (pre-playing), my feeling is that Heracross is going to be quite broken, but it will take more than "Nothing can switch in" to ban it.
This is not going to be like Salamence, where there was that whole "is it mixed or DD". You know exactly what Heracross is going to do. However, think of it like Yanmega - Yanmega needed just 3 shots at the team to ruin it. Heracross is going to have a lot more opportunities to come in and spam Megahorn/Close Combat, which are equally devastating to teams as Bug Buzz.
Not to mention that 85 Speed is good for UU.
I was just saying that this really is Heracross's strongest set, nothing can switch in safely with out taking a good chunk of their health. Besides i think another broken quality about Heracross is that it sits at base 85 speed, which is quite good for UU, sure there are faster threats but they are frail and can fall on switching in, and many of then can be checked by a defensive pokemon like Registeel.
Arcanine, Moltres say hi.
Anyway I tested the SD Guts set for a few matches, and I don't know was it just my bad skills or my bad teambuilding or something, but I found that Heracross rarely could get an SD up. There's too many things that are faster than it and can hit it hard, and I'm really starting to feel the Base 85 speed really kicking me. Not to mention UU is like the land of priority, and Heracross doesn't even get it's own priority to make up for it.
I'll probably try other sets later, but yeah.
Anyway I tested the SD Guts set for a few matches, and I don't know was it just my bad skills or my bad teambuilding or something, but I found that Heracross rarely could get an SD up. There's too many things that are faster than it and can hit it hard, and I'm really starting to feel the Base 85 speed really kicking me. Not to mention UU is like the land of priority, and Heracross doesn't even get it's own priority to make up for it.
I'll probably try other sets later, but yeah.
I was just wondering. Is Dugtrio to frail to come in on CB Heracross' SE with Screen Support and trapping and KO it with Aerial Ace? Or can it survive a SE without Reflect up? Can it survive two SE from CS Heracross? It's probably to frail, but it doesn't hurt asking.
- Status