NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[sharkz]

It could work to soak up Megahorn and CC, but then Heracross would just outspeed and Stone Edge you next turn, so you would need a scarf to outspeed, but then Megahorn starts to hurt bad.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

I never mentioned it being a counter, just mentioned it having some utility.

 

[Erazor]

Keep in mind that the precedent has already been set.....as long as Heracross makes stall practically nonviable it is (most likely) going to be deemed BL.

However, I do fear that regardless of how good Heracross is, it won't be given a real shot at UU, similar to Porygon-z (again, in my opinion). Everyone started yelling broken right out of the door.

This. Guys, when the ladder resets, please don't automatically say "it's BL lol".

but still... my god nothing can switch in.

 

[Lee]

I've scanned the thread and can't believe people are mentioning 'mons like Masquerain and Golbat but nobody has brought up Gligar yet?

vs a 252/252+ Gligar (and all assume ADAMANT Heracross and bear in mind Hera will be all but forced to run Jolly so these represent worst case scenario)

CC/Megahorn = 21% - 25%
Stone Edge - 24% - 28%
CB CC/Megahorn - 32% - 38%
CB Stone Edge - 36% - 43%

0 Atk Aerial Ace vs 4/0 Heracross = 87% - 103%

I'd probably run EQ or AA/Roost/U-turn/Toxic or Stealth Rock. I used to love using U-turn Gliscor to counter Hera back in OU as if you switched in on him it was all but assured he'd switch out so you could U-turn off the bat to gain momentum. Gligar could only really do that on the Scarf variants though as the CB ones will force him to Roost.

Earthquake vs AA depends on how worried you are about Hera...EQ is the much better move of course but AA has it's obvious use. The last slot is for supporting the team.

Obviously the SD+Orb+Facade set is a problem but then you're just gonna have to use your noggin' a bit...almost any faster 'mon can revenge kill him easily with that exploitable typing...Swellow, Scyther, Manectric, Houndoom, Duggy, Alakazam, Ambipom etc all revenge kill with their standard sets and if you want additional insurance you could always whack HP Flying on your Mismagius/Sceptile (heck, it hits Venusaur too).

 

[shrang]

I'm quite sure Gligar has been mentioned somewhere in this already tl;dr thread.

Anyways, why are people hating on Golbat?? He's actually not bad at all.

 

[sharkz]

I mentioned Gligar a while back in the thread and I've been using the UU Defensive set in the Stratdex, with EQ/Roost/AA/SR(cos i couldn't fit it anywhere :() and yeah, he deals with Hera quite well, kinda like a mini Gliscor. :)

 

[Choice Socks]

I'm so annoyed he doesn't get drain punch.
I was hoping I'd be able to use him as a bulk up drain puncher like I did with gallade, and my NU teams hitmonchan.

 

[Bad Ass]

help stall is most definitely viable. i for one know that eo has been destroying face with his stall, so please do not pull that arguement.

 

[franky]

heracross is meh

 

[WhimsicalBox]

I like Flame/Toxic orb sub set. Obviously it's going to be losing health quickly, so wish passing is nice, but you can sub up and abuse facade, which still hits most pokemon hard, and it has more power than a LO set.

 

[Erazor]

Sub and Flame Orb is not going to net you more than one kill, most of the time - you'll be too low on health. Use Sub & Black Belt or even Leftovers.

Or just use fuckin' CB Heracross + Skuntank/Drapion - things die.

 

[Brammi]

Keep in mind that the precedent has already been set.....as long as Heracross makes stall practically nonviable it is (most likely) going to be deemed BL.

However, I do fear that regardless of how good Heracross is, it won't be given a real shot at UU, similar to Cresselia (again, in my opinion). Everyone started yelling broken right out of the door.

See I don't think it will make stall nonviable. Stall has ways to deal with it's sets except for sub.

If that is the argument people are going to use I think it will come down to how good the sub set it. The sub set is the one with no set counters as it eliminates the speed issue which is currently it's biggest problem in terms of completely obliterating everything there is.

Btw. Band Azumarill deals about 50% with Aqua Jet peeps. Remember that.

Also to those people who are saying Venusaur ain't happy. Try some SD return action. There be no more Registeels.

 

[Thund91]

I don't see why Registeel would make such a huge drop. All it has do now is run Counter > Thunder Wave. And that's a really underrated move. You can now kill Hera, Donphan, Rhyperior, Torterra, blah blah blah. And considering there is going to be a bunch of Missy's running around, Registeel won't be going anywhere.

 

[shrang]

Keep in mind that the precedent has already been set.....as long as Heracross makes stall practically nonviable it is (most likely) going to be deemed BL.

This is a pretty horrible precedent, IMO. Why is that if Stall (Or <insert playstyle here>) is unviable then a Pokemon is broken?? We'll essentially be basing our bans with a logic that is flawed. Making stall less viable is only one of the consequences of a Pokemon being broken, not a root cause. If we want to ban Heracross with respect to Gallade's ban, it should be due to its overpowering nature against THE WHOLE METAGAME, not just a particular playstyle, otherwise we'll have something like "Taunt Clause" because Trick Room is severely impaired by Taunt. Are we forgetting how GSC was Stall-based and therefore offense was harder to play??

 

[Meru]

There's a lot more things keeping stall nonviable than Heracross.

And don't report outlier statistics of a SINGLE player. That holds no weight in the overall argument of stall being viable.

 

[Heysup]

I've scanned the thread and can't believe people are mentioning 'mons like Masquerain and Golbat but nobody has brought up Gligar yet?

vs a 252/252+ Gligar (and all assume ADAMANT Heracross and bear in mind Hera will be all but forced to run Jolly so these represent worst case scenario)

CC/Megahorn = 21% - 25%
Stone Edge - 24% - 28%
CB CC/Megahorn - 32% - 38%
CB Stone Edge - 36% - 43%

0 Atk Aerial Ace vs 4/0 Heracross = 87% - 103%

I'd probably run EQ or AA/Roost/U-turn/Toxic or Stealth Rock. I used to love using U-turn Gliscor to counter Hera back in OU as if you switched in on him it was all but assured he'd switch out so you could U-turn off the bat to gain momentum. Gligar could only really do that on the Scarf variants though as the CB ones will force him to Roost.

Earthquake vs AA depends on how worried you are about Hera...EQ is the much better move of course but AA has it's obvious use. The last slot is for supporting the team.

Obviously the SD+Orb+Facade set is a problem but then you're just gonna have to use your noggin' a bit...almost any faster 'mon can revenge kill him easily with that exploitable typing...Swellow, Scyther, Manectric, Houndoom, Duggy, Alakazam, Ambipom etc all revenge kill with their standard sets and if you want additional insurance you could always whack HP Flying on your Mismagius/Sceptile (heck, it hits Venusaur too).

The only way you should use Gligar is with Aerial Ace. You need to OHKO Heracross or you'll lose....simple as that.

Also I think people do not consider HP Flying when they should, especially for Grass-types. Flying hits Venusaur, Toxicroak, Sceptile, Leafeon, Hitmontop, and Heracross.

This is a pretty horrible precedent, IMO. Why is that if Stall (Or <insert playstyle here>) is unviable then a Pokemon is broken?? We'll essentially be basing our bans with a logic that is flawed. Making stall less viable is only one of the consequences of a Pokemon being broken, not a root cause. If we want to ban Heracross with respect to Gallade's ban, it should be due to its overpowering nature against THE WHOLE METAGAME, not just a particular playstyle, otherwise we'll have something like "Taunt Clause" because Trick Room is severely impaired by Taunt. Are we forgetting how GSC was Stall-based and therefore offense was harder to play??

Because that's the precedent that's been set? For your information, Gallade was banned because it was too good against stall while not being a liability. Yanmega was similar against Offense. See the precedent?

And banning a move is completely different from banning a Pokemon...especially when Taunt isn't broken in that sense anyway.

 

[Mjolnir]

Oh how we weep for crobat....... two 4X resists. Decent bulk. Oh my it is missed in advent of hera-face-rape.

CB just wrecks shit in such a cruel manner.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Why is that if Stall (Or <insert playstyle here>) is unviable then a Pokemon is broken??

Wasn't Yanmega banned because it made offense unviable ?

EDIT : Ninja'd

Also if Eo is using stall (as someone has previously said), id love to know what he is using to check/beat hera, just cos im curious lol

 

[shrang]

I did see the precedent, all I'm saying is that the precedent used is a bad one. Gallade was banned because it swept the majority of the metagame with little to no support, ie he fitted the Offensive Characteristic, not because Stall couldn't handle it. Yanmega was the same.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Uh yeah, Stall and Offense are "majorities of the metagame", so making any one completely unviable is essentially wiping out half the metagame (or rather, making it grossly unequal competitively). I have no idea how stall is dealing with heracross right now (I assume subtoxic moltres figures into it rather heavily) but it should be pretty obvious that it completely wrecks UU stall. Hell, it gives enough trouble to OU stall...

 

[shrang]

Uh yeah, Stall and Offense are "majorities of the metagame", so making any one completely unviable is essentially wiping out half the metagame (or rather, making it grossly unequal competitively)

Okay, let's look at Stall, Balance, Offense, etc. Already, if you wipe out one style, it's not a majority (At least if you count them equally anyway, and if you're not, you just completely contradicted your second bit). Even if there was only Stall and Offense, and they both took up 50% of the metagame, you're still not at a majority. Again, making a playstyle less viable is a consequence of the Suspect fitting the Offensive Characteristic, and should never be used as a cause of a Pokemon's broken level, just like the Overcentralisation argument.

 

[Alan]

This is a pretty horrible precedent, IMO. Why is that if Stall (Or <insert playstyle here>) is unviable then a Pokemon is broken?? We'll essentially be basing our bans with a logic that is flawed. Making stall less viable is only one of the consequences of a Pokemon being broken, not a root cause. If we want to ban Heracross with respect to Gallade's ban, it should be due to its overpowering nature against THE WHOLE METAGAME, not just a particular playstyle, otherwise we'll have something like "Taunt Clause" because Trick Room is severely impaired by Taunt. Are we forgetting how GSC was Stall-based and therefore offense was harder to play??

Because no single pokemon should be able to make one particular playstyle unviable. The goal is to make every tier as diverse as possible playstyle wise and if a singular pokemon (Heracross, Gallade, Yanmega, what have you) prevent that from happening then it makes sense that they should be banned.

Anyway, SD Flame Orb heracross is getting WAY WAY WAY too much fucking hype. It gets a kill then it gets super easily revenge killed because it dies really fast. I'm not saying its not a good set, but good god its not the most amazing shit ever invented. Anyway heracross looks like it should be fun. Just curious, since i assumed every heracross was carrying stone edge, what other move would you guys consider as a third attacking move? CC/Megahorn/??

NP: Beach Boys - Fun Fun Fun

 

[FlareBlitz]

Actually, a majority is not necessarily defined as "50%+" as far as styles go. It's defined in the context of a team. A team style has 6 of a certain number of Pokemon. Heracross wipes out 5/6 members of an average stall team by itself, with no assistance (the exception being the occasional moltres). Heracross also wipes 3/6 or 4/6 Pokemon on a balance team, depending on the team. Heracross wipes out 3/6 or 2/6 Pokemon on standard offense, again depending on the team. Average all those out and you easily have "a majority". I'm sure someone will eventually make a list of everything in UU and point out that heracross wipes out 35/50 pokemon on it or whatever the number will be...but the point is that heracross makes ENTIRE TEAMS of a certain style unviable, teams that would be highly competitive otherwise, and it is still reasonably useful against other teams. The expectation that a Pokemon has to completely destroy stall AND offense AND balance in order to be broken is asinine, as nothing would be broken under those characteristics...not Yanmega, not Raikou, not Shaymin...nothing. Metagames always adapt, and some team styles are necessarily more effective against some Pokemon, perhaps even to the point where that Pokemon is mediocre against them. That's no excuse for saying "hurrr well stall does great against it everyone should run stall!!11"

 

[shrang]

Heracross wipes out 5/6 members of an average stall team by itself, with no assistance (the exception being the occasional moltres). Heracross also wipes 3/6 or 4/6 Pokemon on a balance team, depending on the team. Heracross wipes out 3/6 or 2/6 Pokemon on standard offense, again depending on the team. Average all those out and you easily have "a majority".

There we go. This is what I've been been trying to drill through here. The bold bit obviously has nothing to do with stall. When we get to the "Heracross is BL because he causes ANY team in the metagame a truckload of trouble", NOW we are getting a viable argument. You see?? Heracross is not broken (If he is found to be broken) solely because he makes stall unviable, but because he fits one of the Characteristics of an Uber/BL, and the stall being unviable bit is again, a consequence, not a cause of a Pokemon being broken. "Pokemon X destroying Stall" is not conclusive enough to ban a it, just like "Suspect A is guilty because and only because his DNA was found at the crime scene" is not a conclusive argument either.

 

[SJCrew]

Because that's the precedent that's been set? For your information, Gallade was banned because it was too good against stall while not being a liability.

I thought Gallade was banned because it swept teams. I do remember running through at least 3 Pokemon every match even with an Adamant nature. Ironically enough, that was my first UU team too, and I was up against some pretty good players.

It's funny how awesomely easy Honch and Gallade made UU back then, lol.