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np: XY UU Stage 0 - I Lived

Discussion in 'UnderUsed' started by kokoloko, Feb 18, 2014.

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  1. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I feel like Chansey with Leftovers would be absolutely manageable since it would only have 2/3 its usual bulk, but that's asking for a complex ban I know Koko won't do.
  2. radianthero156

    radianthero156 I would finish writing this CT, but there was a 502 bad ga
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    i guess your concept of pressure is different of mine. your assume your concept is that pressure is the fear of being OHKOed, while my concept is that pressure is the acumulation of damage. how does your chansey deal with the situations i mentioned in my other post?

    and also, who cares if florges/umbreon are less bulky than it? by that logic, we could ban florges since it's bulkier than aromatisse, then ban aromatisse since it's bulkier than slurpuff, then...

    you guys keep thinking that chansey must be banned because it's impossible to OHKO it, but if you start to use tatically adequate offense, you'll see that chansey is less of a big killer boss and more of a big setup fodder
  3. hilarious

    hilarious

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    tldr: Shiny Minun made two distinct factual errors which I pointed out, we should consider physical moves and offensive pressure more when looking at Chansey and some stuff on tiering philosophy blah blah blah (as if we didn't have enough of that stuff but I swear what I put hasn't been posted here at least in any recent threads I can see yet)


    You lose credibility when you post something factually inaccurate Shiny Minun.

    Chansey without eviolite does not have superior bulk to Umbreon on both sides. These sets are the "usage" sets according to PS. I am aware most people, or at least most strong players run some defense in Florges but that won't significantly change my damage calculations. In any case Floreges is less bulky on both sides than Chansey given most reasonable EV invesments. I have Keldeo using Hydro Pump for all of them even though Secret Sword would obviously be the better option for Chansey and Umbreon so we can simply compare special bulk. For the same reason Darmanitan is not using Superpower.

    252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 534-628 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 369-435 (102.5 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 57.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 171-202 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 94-112 (26.1 - 31.1%) -- 12.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Umbreon is bulkier physically using a standard set compared to Chansey without eviolite. You were correct when you said Chansey would still be bulkier specially though.

    Here you do not specify Chansey is even holding Leftovers. In this case you are even more incorrect in regards to Chansey's bulk compared to Umbreon and Florges. The majority of the time both Umbreon and Florges will take less overall damage than Chansey after factoring in Leftovers for special moves and occasionally for physical moves for Florges, especially if she runs a small amount of EVs (less than 80) in defense. Then you should factor in you can occasionally, I would say at least 30% of the time on average, be able to use Protect to scout safely and recover even more Leftover's health. In the event that this is possible (keeping in mind this is less likely to happen than not to happen) in these scenarios Chansey is certain to take more damage overall than either Florges or Umbreon both physically and specially.

    To try and be completely fair when addressing your post I will also give you this though, in the event that Umbreon or Florges has lost their Leftovers they will be always less specially bulky than Chansey who has lost her Eviolite if all three are running reasonable EV sets.


    Secret Sword is not essentially a physical attack. Nor is Psyshock. They are completely and unequivocally special attacks. It has as you know a secondary effect that makes it calculate damage based on the target's defense. So what? Why does that make it a physical move? It still uses the user's special attack stat, it does not take into account attack boosts, only special attack boosts, it follows the mechanics of special moves by being reflected by Mirror Coat and it is of course categorized by Game Freak itself as a special move. It just has a unique secondary effect that happens to make life even harder for Chansey. At the beginning of generation 5 would we have considered Scald "essentially a Fire move" just because up until that point only Fire moves could burn? Of course not. Yes Scald happened to take on a characteristic of fire moves just as now Psyshock takes on a characteristic of physical moves(burning, using defense stat). That does not change the basic categorization of the move.

    In any case, I'm sorry if you just spent good time reading the above paragraph, but that is actually completely irrelevant. Are you seriously saying Lord of Bays that we are not allowed to count physical moves when debating how broken Chansey is? You said your problem is that Chansey is specially unbreakable. Disregarding the fact that such a generalization is misleading at best, especially because I have already provided evidence contrary to your claim, we should be allowed to then bring up how Chansey is far more vulnerable on the physically defensive side.

    With regards to putting on pressure on Chansey and again another factual inaccuracy

    4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 445-525 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -1 4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 296-351 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 562-663 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 374-442 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 136-161 (19.3 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Could you, to be blunt Shiny Minun, stop pulling your facts out of thin air? Tornadus with Superpower can easily easily easily deal with an itemless Chansey assuming you are a competent player. If Chansey switches in with SR up on a U-turn or an Air Slash it will die the majority of the time to the very next Superpower. Itemless Chansey is not as good as you think it is Minun.

    You say her ability Natural Cure makes Chansey very potent at status absorbing. I say you are not taking into account all three Wish Passers are also clerics and Umbreon is arguably even better at status absorbing because he can reflect the status and then heal it off for his entire team.



    I want to bring up one last point. If I am correct, and I know very well I may not be so those of you who know better please correct me and I apologize in advance to you, UU seems to have a sort of new philosophy on banning that goes something like "all tiering is subjective and all criteria for banning can be twisted with words so we might as well go with the route ban whatever we don't like for no other reason than Pokemon is a game and so a healthy metagame is only a fun metagame."

    If that is the case then please, just stop posting on suspects its really quite pointless. Most of the only people who actually can vote on this do not seem to be interested enough in these threads and discussions to actually post and the majority of the discussions that take place on tiering in UU happens, to the best of my knowledge, on a channel on irc with less than 50 regular users compared to the probably several thousand UU playerbase. No amount of calculations can convince you Chansey is fun to play with. And if you want to ban Chansey because you think it makes the tier less fun then I am actually 100% ok with that because I agree, tiering is very much subjective and we should ban whatever we do not like. I am also pretty certain in at least this case the majority of UU players do not think Chansey is fun, though I do not have the slightest clue what most of the council thinks.
    Upstart and radianthero156 like this.
  4. Shiny Minun

    Shiny Minun

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    That was my bad, I forgot to factor in stab against chansey when I doing calcs myself, but still very comparable at their job, which I'll get into a bit later.

    You found my point, anyone is hindered by knock off and its very present in the metagame, its much easier to avoid it than it is to avoid using this demi-god because shes so resilient in the metagame and does so much work.
    The only reason to use umbreon or florges over chansey is typing and "If I make a mistake and get my eviolite knocked off, I'm gonna have a bad time."
    And I'm not going to play macho and say I've never been knocked, but when I let it happen its so late in the game it barely matters.

    I think it is a little unfair to have the Chansey switching into a superpower and already having her item off, and have stealth rock up. That would take some time to set up.
    I did my calc assuming that she switches into an unfortunate knock off (and I'm giving that to you because Cansey can be an answer for Torn-T, but its not really a good one) And from there can soft-boiled stall till it's attack stat is laughable. Yes if you're a competent player setting that up is not too hard, however, if you're also against one, that kind of set up can be reversed, and the chansey user wouldn't be switching into something that is so obviously a knock off user (peaking in regard to having experience with chansey first hand.)


    So instead of having to waste a turn and valuable PP (8/8) you can just switch in and out on status, I don't see why umbreon is better, I guess you can punish status a bit more, but you still have to stay in to heal bell, and I've even been in scenarios where the opponent will continue to status you, knowing you only have 8 PP to spare. (no pressure tho.)

    My concept of pressure is "Can this harm me? Can't this leave a lasting hindrance" If not, then its not pressuring. Why would I switch out on Darm if hes only gonna do max 55% and kill himself why he does it?
    I'm not saying just ban it because it outclasses things, I'm saying its effect on teams is too powerful to be in a balanced environment. Specifically her 300+ HP Wishes which heal a vast majority of the metagame for full HP
    Yes, Chansey is giant setup fodder to things with over 300 HP that are immune to toxic and don't mind thunder wave either. Additionally anything with over 400HP and a faster substitute.

    What, just Zygarde then?

    I want to take the chance to apologize for my inaccuracies, I made a mistake when calcing and I'm not gonna pretend that didn't happen, but don't throw my argument out the window because of it. Chansey completely outclasses everyone in her job and her wishes make teams as a group borderline unkillable. Even with added tools to dispose of her, she is almost as bad as she was last generation.
  5. radianthero156

    radianthero156 I would finish writing this CT, but there was a 502 bad ga
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    who in the world would leave darmanitan in chansey? the things that switch in chansey more (at least in the universe of not terrible players) are taunters, calm mind users, powerful physic attackers, hazards users, or even a cleric/wisher of their own. also, chansey cannot use 2 moves on the same turn; if it uses toxic as i switch crawdaunt in, your team has a high chace of being punished for using chansey: you can send something like chesnaught as i use swords dance and aerial ace, send something like hydreigon while i superpower, or leave chansey in while i use knock off.
  6. Shiny Minun

    Shiny Minun

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    Generally pokemon with super wall class special defense can't tank one of the strongest physical moves in the tier, generally people are in disbelief when my chansey sits there tanking flare blitz like nothing. Yes this misconseption will soon be vanqished since people don't have experience against chansey since she was BL for pretty much all of gen 5. But it is worth nothing how physically bulky she is. These are flare blitz that even slowbro feels if hes not running physically defensive. (Which is relevant because the assault vest set is actually getting pretty popular)

    Also: Why do you assume that I'm going to counter crawdaunt with something that isn't a crawdaunt counter? Now you're just being silly.
    "Oh man, his suicune is setting up, I better bring in my entei!" Not that extreme but you get my point.

    I wouldn't switch chestnaught into crawdaunt because EVEN I run AA crawdaunt, something like mega blastoise and outspeed SD sets and isn't OHKO'd by DD sets.
    Yes you can get punished for using chansey, but a toxiced crawdaunt is still taking upwards of 20% damage per turn it attacks (with life orb) and has a small (but still existent) list of things that can counter him. I'm not going to use something I've already ruled out because its not a counter, I make sure to have a crawdaunt counter because that thing is ridiculous though.

    you're always bringing the worst case scenario up with chansey, which kind of points out a major balance issue, in order to advance on a chansey team you have to be pretty much completely outplaying me at all times. Or at least that is what I'm gathering from your argument. Let me shift it around

    Lets say instead of toxic, I go for wish, as your crawdaunt switches in, I switch to my Blastoise, you do as much as you can with knock off, I survive and am blissfully restored to full HP, and now you're crawdaunt is neck and neck with a counter that just switched in for free! And unlike chestnaught, Blastoise is actually a counter! Wow!
  7. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    Changing the topic (if only for a little bit) to talk a little bit about Mega Ampharos. I know a few people talked about it a page or two ago, but it is really underrated right now imo. It has a really cool defensive and offensive typing in Electric / Dragon, and a solid movepool to allow a lot of flexibility for. The two sets I've really liked thus far are a Bulky Attacker set and a physically defensive set. The bulky attacker set focuses more on Mega Ampharos's offensive typing while still not neglecting its defensive typing. Its STABs have such good coverage that allows it to run Heal Bell in the last slot to provide support for its team. I've really loved using it with Tornadus-T and Mienshao since its slow Volt Switch gives the two that many more chances to pressure teams. Vaporeon and Florges, two of the better Wish passers for balanced teams, also have really good defensive synergy with Mega Ampharos. The same set can be used on Trick Room teams (with Focus Blast over Heal Bell) thanks to its synergy with Slowbro, Slowking, and Escavalier.

    The physically defensive set is an amazing switch-in to some really awkward threats. Crawdaunt, Tornadus-T, Mega Manectric, and Victini can all be countered or hard checked by the set. Base 165 Special Attack stings a fair bit, even without investment, and the ability to, at worst, hard check some of the top offensive threats in the metagame is amazing. While it does have to rely on RestTalk for recovery, it does pair well with Florges, Umbreon, and Chansey (irony!) (thank you jamashawalker for introducing me to the set) Here are the sets for anyone that's interested:

    Ampharos @ Ampharosite
    Ability: Static --> Mold Breaker
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spe (only if used on Trick Room teams)
    Nature: Modest / Quiet
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Heal Bell / Focus Blast

    and

    Ampharos @ Ampharosite
    Ability: Static --> Mold Breaker
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Nature: Bold
    - Volt Switch
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Rest / Heal Bell
    - Sleep Talk / Toxic / Thunder Wave
  8. eaglehawk

    eaglehawk

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    just a quick question. Can someone run some calcs with Mega Amph and Crawdaunt's Knock Off?
  9. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    eaglehawk

    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 133-159 (34.7 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Volt Switch OHKOes and Dragon Pulse has an 81.3% chance to OHKO after SR as well) so Mega Ampharos is a hard check at worst.
  10. Scaggz

    Scaggz

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    I find it amazing how quickly people have latched onto the bulky Ampharos set. I immediately made a mixed defensive set in-game the second I learned about Mega Ampharos' typing and defenses and have accumulated a short list of viable partners for it:

    -Bronzong. With Levitate, this Big Bad Bell resists all of Ampharos' weaknesses. Unfortunately, Gen 6 brought it's defensive typing down a notch, but the only offensively viable threats to Bronzong (namely Crawdaunt, Darmanitan and any fast, high powered Knock Off user) are all WALLED by the sheer bulk of physically defensive Mega Ampharos and then usually 2HKO'ed by the sheer power of uninvested neutral base 165 STAB. Also a good stealth rock setter.

    -Florges. Great switch in on Dragon moves or any special move, for that matter. Compliments Ampharos' physical defense well and can pass off wishes. Do note her very overlooked base 112 Sp Atk. It can come in handy very often with a bit of investment to nail opposing Dragons. (Oh yeah, Florges can justify a RestTalk set as she can carry Aromatherapy to cancel out Heal Bell)

    -Vaporeon. Just like in EonX's original post, Vaporeon does synergises very well with Ampharos. Coincidentally, this was the first Pokémon I thought had any chance of working well defensively with Ampharos. Its very handy bulk and the ability to Wish pass and use Heal Bell make it somewhat like Florges, only slightly more defensively flexible. Unfortunately, the majority of Wish passers suffer bad 4MSS, so I like to use either Toxic (if I'm not using Heal Bell) or Scald.

    -Jirachi. With a typing similar to Bronzong (bar the Ground immunity), Jirachi makes a very nice partner for Ampharos. It boasts access to a relatively quick U-Turn to create a handy mixed speed VoltTurn combo and has a very wide Movepool so you can tailor it easily to your team's need. Also a nice Healing Wish/ Wish user.

    -Empoleon. While a slight trend has developed of just plonking in Steel Types, there's good reason to do so. While there is a shared Ground Weakness, these Pokémon work amazingly as a Defensive with a handy 1/4x Electric resist from Ampharos and a 1/4 Ice resist from Empoleon. As well as this, Empoleon gets Defog, meaning Tornadus-T becomes that much harder to take down and can poop on those stupid Ground types from the skies.
  11. Unfixable

    Unfixable

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    Can you stop using 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD! I already said this, but it was after a long post, so. 4 HP / 252+ / 252 is the proper spread, it gives it much more bulk, for instance:
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 171-202 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery goes to (21.1 - 25.2%) with 4 / 252

  12. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
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    now do a calc on secret sword with both spreads and see what happens
  13. Unfixable

    Unfixable

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    Obviously for physical attackers >_> but this spread gives more all-around bulk.
    oh, and btw:
    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 368-434 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    No difference in terms of 2HKO to 3HKO.
  14. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew

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    I think Kokoloko means this:

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 548-648 (77.8 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 548-648 (85.4 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    Chesnaught Wait, why is Chansey holding Leftovers in your Hydro Pump calc? Besides, it trades slightly smaller physical bulk for an equally small amount of better special bulk, but you'd lose out on Wishes.
  16. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
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    no the point is Chaney is already so ridiculously specially bulky that I would rather increase it's physical bulk by a small amount than it's special bulk by a larger amount.

    run calcs vs shit like heracross and metagross and you'll see the type of shit it can survive with max HP and Def Bold over Def and SpD Calm.

    lol and I totally forgot about wish. yeah larger wishes are nice.
    Godsend and JirachiCelebiMew like this.
  17. radianthero156

    radianthero156 I would finish writing this CT, but there was a 502 bad ga
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    i prefer 252 hp instead of 252 spdef in uu because of the insane amount of psyshock users that chansey needs to beat, but i can see the point of the second option. as a special wall, chansey needs to fight np mega houndoom, specs magnezone, etc, and the spdef evs are relevant while dealing with those
  18. Unfixable

    Unfixable

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    Because it was the calc of the ban Eviolite but keep it in the tier with Leftovers lol. It's up there. I guess it is larger Wishes, but I still prefer the Special bulk :/
  19. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    I think it somewhat depends on what the team needs Chansey to wall. Overall, I think the 252 HP / 252+ Def / 4 SDef spread is the best overall for Chansey (though I only run 248 HP since it doesn't effect Wish and rounds down hazard damage) but teams that absolutely need Chansey's ability to wall stuff like NP M-Houndoom, Specs Magnezone, and the like could get mileage out of the other spread. Still though, you've got shit like Latias, Reuniclus, NP Mew, and many other Psyshock users that Chansey needs to, at the very least, hard check for its team, and the max HP/Defense spread works better for that.
  20. eaglehawk

    eaglehawk

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    I remember this argument happen last gen regarding the best spread for Blissey, and 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpDef maximizes its overalll bulk. The only time I would see 252 HP necessary is when you need 350+ Wishes, which in of itself is overkill.
  21. Kingpoleon

    Kingpoleon I COULD BE BANNED!

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    Also, you are basically saying "noobish players can't beat it! Ban it!" This is illogical. To prove something's broken post replays, calcs, anything besides repeating the same MEANINGLESS WORDS over and over again. It's like when some body says
    A: "This broken bc x."
    B: No it's not bc y"
    A: "This broken bc of x."
    B: "no it's not bc z"....
    B is arguing correctly. A repeats the same phrase over and over again until it becomes meaningless. Please try to be like B.
  22. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    Chansey does wall every special attacker in the tier though… and can take weaker physical attacks.


    The price you pay is that Chansey doesn't have that much of an offensive prescense, but its seismic toss's can still break subs and it can always toxic on setup sweepers to make it not complete setup bait.

    I don't if it's broken, but it does wall almost everything in the metagame and supports the team with wish's/heal bell and even with knock off existing is really hard to kill (If the person using Chansey is competent).
  23. Machi

    Machi

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    Except i think EonX already points out a good difference this gen with UU
    Special attackers aren't a suscpetible to Chansey as they do have Psyshock/Secret Sword to work with, and there are more viable users as compared to last gen, in addition the current metagame special attacks have received a nerf, meaning less need for SpD, with lower a lower base power and there are more physcial attackers as well that I see the Max HP Bold as being more in line with what is needed.
  24. kokoloko

    kokoloko yes, this is dog.
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    OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT:

    We have a new OU list, courtesy of an updated way of determining tiers (the cutoff for the weighted stats is now 1760, read all about it in Policy Review).

    Here is the link to the new list.

    Therefore,

    RIP Zapdos / Keldeo / Chansey / Kyurem-B / Deoxys-D / Terrakion / Manaphy / Deoxys-S / Landorus / Latias (unbolded ones were BL, which means less retests later!)

    Hello, Donphan / Klefki / Starmie / Smeargle / Tentacruel / Sableye / Cloyster / Forretress / Galvantula / Salamence / Trevenant

    The Council will discuss the final wave of bans over PM for the next week or so. Expect the tier to go official by the 20th at the latest.

    That is all.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  25. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    Ding dong, the bitch is dead! That does my heart good. Gotta contend with some dangerous new Pokemon now, but it's all gonna be okay.
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