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NU Viability Ranking

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.

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  1. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

    Apr 3, 2012
    credit to PKGaming and FlareBlitz for the idea; credit to ium for the banner


    Welcome to the NU viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted. After we have came up with a tier list that most people agree upon, it will go on-site somewhere in the NU hub.


    Viability Ranking Council
    For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.
    • DTC Annoyer
    • Zebraiken
    • FLCL
    • Raseri
    • EBeast


    Tier List
    Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier (note: Pokemon are ordered alphabetically).
    S rank
    [​IMG] Jynx
    [​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Samurott
    [​IMG] Scolipede
    A rank

    [​IMG] Alomomola
    [​IMG] Braviary
    [​IMG] Carracosta
    [​IMG] Eelektross
    [​IMG] Garbodor
    [​IMG] Gardevoir
    [​IMG] Golem
    [​IMG] Golurk
    [​IMG] Gorebyss
    [​IMG] Haunter
    [​IMG] Lickilicky
    [​IMG] Ludicolo
    [​IMG] Misdreavus
    [​IMG] Musharna
    [​IMG] Piloswine
    [​IMG] Primeape
    [​IMG] Regice
    [​IMG] Regirock
    [​IMG] Rotom-Fan
    [​IMG] Rotom-Frost
    [​IMG] Sawk
    [​IMG] Sawsbuck
    [​IMG] Seismitoad
    [​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Skuntank
    [​IMG] Swellow
    [​IMG] Tauros
    [​IMG] Zangoose
    B rank

    [​IMG] Altaria
    [​IMG] Ampharos
    [​IMG] Arbok
    [​IMG] Armaldo
    [​IMG] Articuno
    [​IMG] Beheeyem
    [​IMG] Charizard
    [​IMG] Combusken
    [​IMG] Drifblim
    [​IMG] Duosion
    [​IMG] Electabuzz
    [​IMG] Exeggutor
    [​IMG] Fraxure
    [​IMG] Golbat
    [​IMG] Gothorita
    [​IMG] Gurdurr
    [​IMG] Kadabra
    [​IMG] Linoone
    [​IMG] Mantine
    [​IMG] Marowak
    [​IMG] Metang
    [​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG] Ninjask
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Probopass
    [​IMG] Rapidash
    [​IMG] Roselia
    [​IMG] Swanna
    [​IMG] Swoobat
    [​IMG] Tangela
    [​IMG] Throh
    [​IMG] Torkoal
    [​IMG] Torterra
    [​IMG] Ursaring
    [​IMG] Victreebel
    [​IMG] Weezing
    [​IMG] Zebstrika
    C rank
    [​IMG] Audino
    [​IMG] Basculin
    [​IMG] Bastiodon
    [​IMG] Butterfree
    [​IMG] Cacturne
    [​IMG] Camerupt
    [​IMG] Cradily
    [​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Dragonair
    [​IMG] Electrode
    [​IMG] Flareon
    [​IMG] Frillish
    [​IMG] Floatzel
    [​IMG] Gigalith
    [​IMG] Glaceon
    [​IMG] Golduck
    [​IMG] Grumpig
    [​IMG] Hypno
    [​IMG] Jumpluff
    [​IMG] Klang
    [​IMG] Lairon
    [​IMG] Lampent
    [​IMG] Lapras
    [​IMG] Leafeon
    [​IMG] Liepard
    [​IMG] Luxray
    [​IMG] Magmar
    [​IMG] Masquerain
    [​IMG] Mawile
    [​IMG] Mr. Mime
    [​IMG] Muk
    [​IMG] Murkrow
    [​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Raichu
    [​IMG] Rampardos
    [​IMG] Relicanth
    [​IMG] Scraggy
    [​IMG] Shelgon
    [​IMG] Shiftry
    [​IMG] Simipour
    [​IMG] Simisage
    [​IMG] Simisear
    [​IMG] Sneasel
    [​IMG] Solrock
    [​IMG] Stunfisk
    [​IMG] Vigoroth
    [​IMG] Vileplume
    [​IMG] Volbeat
    [​IMG] Wartortle
    [​IMG] Zweilous​
    D rank
    [​IMG] Beartic
    [​IMG] Bibarel
    [​IMG] Banette
    [​IMG] Dodrio
    [​IMG] Dwebble
    [​IMG] Exploud
    [​IMG] Gabite
    [​IMG] Glalie
    [​IMG] Huntail
    [​IMG] Kingler
    [​IMG] Meganium
    [​IMG] Natu
    [​IMG] Octillery
    [​IMG] Omanyte
    [​IMG] Pikachu
    [​IMG] Regigigas
    [​IMG] Seadra
    [​IMG] Togetic
    [​IMG] Trapinch
    [​IMG] Vanilluxe
    [​IMG] Wynaut​
    E rank
    :pirate: Everything else.​

    • Post intellegently; no one will listen to you if you post random blabber that isn't supported by sufficient evidence.
    • Do not insult users just because you disagree with them.
    • Usage statistics do not determine viability.

  2. Steamroll

    Steamroll MRW
    is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 1, 2011
    Suggest move of Metang from C Tier to A tier because it went RU for three months.

    NAH JK, move it to D Tier because it does have some general use (sac mon, wall, hazard setter) but cannot do anything else effectively (kill). Plus it's outclassed by a hell of a lot of other mons in its niche.
  3. Originality


    Oct 9, 2012
    I think Lairon should be on the D rankings as it can set up rocks and act as a physical or special wall when equipped with an eviolite. However i don't think it should be any higher as it lacks reliable recovery and is weak to fighting and ground type pokemon, and since of golurk and sawk being top threats in NU it is not always the safest pokemon to play. Lairon also does a great job of countering Cincinno as she fails to KO Lairon without Wake-up-slap making Lairon one of the best Cincinno counters in NU.
  4. Bayrock


    Jun 13, 2012
    HP: 75 Atk 95 Def: 60 SpA: 65 SpD: 60 Spe: 115

    I think Cinccino is easily one of the biggest threats in the entire tier, and that's why I believe it should be S Rank. Skill Link is what makes Cinccino such a force in the metagame, allowing it to break through Substitutes and proceed to sweep an entire team if it isn't prepared. Pair it with a Life Orb or Choice it and it suddenly becomes the most potent late game cleaner in the whole tier. With a base speed of 115 Cinccino is able to out-speed many of its victims provided they aren't carrying priority, and also makes it a viable scarfer. Once Cinccino's main threats are eliminated it can effortlessly be the end of the game.

    Of course this doesn't go without saying Cinccino isn't the perfect Pokémon, and that's why it's been able to hold its place in NU. Nontheless I believe it can still easily be classed with the most prodigious mons in the metagame. Cinccino even becomes a viable wallbreaker when it's wielding a Choice Band, as Tail-slap 2HKOs everything that doesn't resist. Access to U-turn is great for getting itself out of some sticky situations, and Bullet Seed can hit Rock types and other Pokémon that resist Tail Slap. Cinccino also has viability running surprise sets with moves like Captivate and Charm that allow it to lower the opponents stats a couple stages and catch them off-guard, as well as Thief stripping the opponent of their item and taking it for your own benefit. Overall, I believe Cinccino is able to prove its status worthy of the highest ranked foes in the metagame.
  5. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Apr 22, 2012
    I agree with the above that lairon should be least in the D section for it still has a powerful head smash, sets up rocks and can wall certan things pretty easily such as skuntank.

    I'd also put piloswine in rank B. I know it's dual stab is awesome and it's one of the only bolt beam resistors, but most boltbeam users often have a way to deal with him anyway (lapras has surf, rotom-f trick and ground immunity and regice focus blast). While ice stab is often better than rock offensively, it leaves piloswine with terrible walling capacities unlike many other stealth rock users like golem and regirock that can actualy wall threatening stuff other than curse muk and terrible attackers like audino while still having good offenive presence.

    Every time I used piloswine lately, I was a disappointed. Another annoying thing is that he shares many weaknesses with rock and steel types while not walling cb braviary's brave bird or return too well. Sure it can retalliate with ice shard, but piloswine alone will often leave your team with a braviary or normal spam weakness unless you pair it with a rock or steel that will likely leave you with many other weaknesses such as samurott, sawk or emboar.

    I've recently started using acroblim and was really surprised at how incredibly good that thing is ! it can easily set up a sub on the very common amoonguss, will-o-wisp the rock switch-in and come back later to finish off the opponent with a boosted acrobatics followed by great sweeping capacities. If it fails to sweep, it will at least bring down it's counter with him (dbond) often leaving it very easy to sweep with a second flying or normal type.

    Driflbim also has a nice niche defensively with 3 important immunities and resistance to grass, bug and poison that often come together. He can also use will-o-wisp to help take down certan walls that trouble some of the greatest wallbreakers. I think drifblim should be promoted to rank A.


    I'd also put bronzor in D rank, while it may seem completely ridicuolous because of his terrilble attack stats, I was very surprised when I realized how incredibly hard to kill this thing can become when using calm mind. If you're opponent does not have a fire type, something with swords dance, an incredibly powerful neutral STAB (cb sawk) or something with trick, taunt or encore, there's a good chance your opponent will not be able to take down bronzor after a CM even with rest being it's only form of recovery. From there, bronzor can take all the time it needs to boost itslef to +6 and finish off your opponent with flash canon and toxic. Take in consideration that many of the most powerful fire types also tend to spam flare blitz, take a lot from hazards and are not immune to toxic (on the switch) so they usualy don't stay around so long.

    As I said, it might seem ridiculous but 1 on 1, this thing beats musharna (toxic has more pp than heal bell), zangoose, cinccino and every other powerful normal attacker, cb braviary and even cb golurk if he never crits shadow punch. Say bronzor comes in before ludicolo, you even have the time to get up 2 CM's before he gets rain up. In embarassing situations, Bronzor can even win pp stall wars since rest is the best pp stalling move. Sure bronzor isn't doing anything but spreading toxic as long as stuff like emboar is alive, but D tier is nothing incredible and I think bronzor deserves a steel medal ;).

    Here's the set if anyone else than me believes in it's might

    Bronzor @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Flash Cannon
    - Toxic
    - Rest
  6. Tahu

    Tahu No one cared who I was until I put on the mask
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Sep 16, 2011
    I suggest moving Seismitoad to B rank. It's one of the best rain sweepers around due to it's fantastic coverage in 3 moves. It's got one 2 of the best STABs in the game-Water and Ground- as well as the ability to beat the Grass-types that often give rain teams trouble with Sludge Wave. It can also run Stealth Rock, which helps with dedicated offensive teams. However, it's 4x weak to Grass moves, which are seen on such NU staples as Cinccino, Amoonguss, and Ludicolo.
  7. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

    Dec 14, 2010
    Id suggest Noctowl to be put into rank C or at least something other than E. I have been using it a little recently and it is actually quite decent, and is definitely better than everything in D and half the stuff in C.

    It is quite specially bulky and can take quite a punishment, and with reliable recovery it doesn't die as easily as one might think. With whirlwind it cant be set up on and works really well alongside the hazards which are quite prominent in the current metagame.

    Id also suggest masquerain be moved down to D. stealth rocks rule NU, and with the only spinners being torkoal, who is weak to rocks, armaldo, which is really slow and wartortle who is just plain bad. Masquerain struggles to do anything that good without a team centered around on it.

    I also think Bastiodon should be B he is excellent at getting rocks up and supporting the team by walling notable threats such as swellow, and being able to roar out pokemon who try to set up. He works excellent on a lot of different teams, and being the best choice for a SR user in a stall environment.
  8. ium

    ium adoro during summer
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 16, 2012
    sadly, i don't think cinccino does its role as well as one would like for it to be considered S rank. 95 attack seems decent enough, but it's pitiful without a boosting move (which it lacks) or item (life orb, choice band).

    now looking at the items, life orb is extremely limiting when compounded with hazards. cinccino is worn down too easily—it's a hit-and-run pokémon that will definitely keep suffering from hazards each time it comes in. it takes around 25% already when it comes in and scouts with u-turn. and seeing how frail it is, it'll be in revenge-killing range in no time. something like misdreavus, regirock, amoonguss, and even alomomola are rarely threatened by it when at decent health.

    and now there's choice band (to a lesser extent, choice scarf) where cinccino is worn down a bit more slowly, but is forced to be locked into one move. even though normal/rock/grass seems kind of neat, they're all easily resisted moves that can be played around which will force cinccino to switch out, so being choiced really takes out the novelty of this coverage. cinccino is fairly easy to check for this reason and adding rocky helmet in the mix can make it really difficult for the user to pull a lot of use out of it. predicting wrong with cinccino has far greater repercussions than some of the other S rank pokémon. i think it fits nicely as A rank where it is right now.

    also, STATIC.
  9. Bayrock


    Jun 13, 2012
    Of course Cinccino has plenty of counters and flaws, I'm just basing my post on what I've seen Cinccino do within the metagame. Many players seem to be leaving a viable counter to it out, or only carrying one which can quickly be drawn out and dealt with based on my personal experiences. I do agree with the points you've made, but I'm still teetering on whether or not it should move up or not; all-in-all just throwing my opinion in.

    Cinccino also does a surprisingly good job with an oddball set
  10. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 21, 2011
    Time to respond to some of these:

    @Steamroll ~I agree with everything you said about Metang, in fact I remember the initial list having Metang in D rather than in C. It has enough of a niche that it's not an instant E Pokemon, but just doesn't execute it well.

    @Originality ~DTC reminded us that we had forgotten about Lairon on IRC and FLCL and I both responded by saying it should be C. While it's not the best Pokemon due to its abusable weaknesses, its typing does allow it to beat Cinccino and alongside a 90 Base Attack and Head Smash provide some good offensive presence.

    @Bayrock ~When we made the list initially we all had decided that Cinccino was only an A Pokemon and this was due to how easily it could be worn down with its Life Orb set and that while it does have higher powered moves courtesy of Skill Link it doesn't hit hard to enough to run past teams. Cinccino frailty, hazards, and LO made it very easy to wear down and take it down with priority. The Choice Band sets can hit hard without the recoil but force themselves to be locked into one of its moves, and a misprediction leads to Cinccino getting easily walled—somewhat making waste of its good coverage.

    @SJ ~Piloswine is in A tier for its great offensive presence, good STAB options, having excellent bulk, and access to Stealth Rock all in one. Piloswine's flaw in that it needs some support in having the Flying- and Normal-type resists that other SR users have is the reason why it's in A. If needing a Flying/Normal resist wasn't a problem, Piloswine would probably be S tier for me. This is still open to other discussion if others want.

    EDIT: I take too long to respond, more people commented:

    @VintageBooks: Noctowl has Insomnia and great Special Defense, but that's all it really has going for it. It doesn't have a defining niche that lets it work in the metagame. (unless Specs/Life Orb Tinted Lens Noctowl becomes a thing) I would say Noctowl should be into D rank, but this is still open to anyone else that can discuss it.

    Teams with Masquerain pretty much are all build around it passing out Quiver Dance boosts and definitely doesn't fit every. The issue of Stealth Rock is a little less serious when Masquerain has access to Intimidate and Roost to keep things in check while it stays healthy. The definition of C tier is a Pokemon with a definite niche that is held back by flaws or contested by other Pokemon. Masquerain in the only Pokemon in NU that can Baton Pass Quiver Dance boosts and for that reason I think it should stay in C tier.

    I'm not really too keen on Bastiodon to give my thoughts on it so I'll let it go to anyone else who can give their reasoning. If I did have to choose I would go with B or C.

    Summary of my proposed changes (open)

    Metang => D rank
    Lairon => C rank
    Cinccino => Stationary (A rank)
    Piloswine => Stationary (A rank)
    Masquerain => Stationary (C rank)
    Noctowl => D rank
  11. Bayrock


    Jun 13, 2012
    Thanks for the response EBeast. I agree with everything else you said too actually. I've been running Metang on a new team I'm working on, but I do think it's more of a D Class candidate. I haven't tested Lairon yet, but I've seen him fit the role he serves, and he tends to do a good job of supporting the team. Piloswine is solid, but A Rank is definitely where it belongs in my opinon.

    I love this viability tiering, and hope to see more of it soon.
  12. zbabyovr9000


    Aug 22, 2012
    I'd like to suggest Granbull, Banette, and Natu to the D ranking. Each has a small niche, however effective, and can sometimes deserve a teamslot.

    Granbull is outclassed by Miltank as a status spreader/heal beller, mainly due to his lack of recovery. However, it has access to Close Combat, higher attack, and intimidate, giving it some reasoning to be used over Miltank, but only situationally, which is why I think it should be in the D rank.

    Banette is the trick room lead to use. It is not as good as lvl 1 Smeargle, but unlike Smeargle, Banette can fire back a STAB shadow claw from base 115 attack. At the same time, base 65 speed is slow enough to use in trick room, setting up TR, holding on with sash, and then destiny bonding to bring in a sweeper for free. It is flawed, as destiny bond can be stalled out, but the unsuspecting opponent will not be in a good position.

    Finally, Natu is a little difficult. I bring him up obviously because he is the only magic bouncer in the tier. However, he loses to most hazard setters 1 on 1. Still, he can play hit and run, coming in on a predicted SR (say golem), U-turning out (just barely outpacing lefties according to my calc, and allowing, say, CB Sawk to come in and either force Golem out or KO through sturdy. Natu is situational, but can be useful. Natu does particularly well against the ever-popular Alomomoonguss, and can Toxic stall Alomomola and possibly put Amoonguss to sleep. Also, Night Shade makes Natu not completely powerless.
  13. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

    Apr 3, 2012
    I have a couple of pokes not on the list currently that I think should be listed on the tiers.

    Mawile- Mawile should be C tier. It fulfills many notable niches (Utility, Offensive, Baton Pass) very effectively, and its stats don't make it good enough for the B tier. Intimidate + good typing lets it wall many top-tier threats such as Cinccino, Swellow, Skuntank, DD Fraxure, and even check Zangoose (better than other Steel-types due to Intimidate). Swords Dance makes it a devastatingly hard hitter with priority to boot. Only Steel-type with Baton Pass while also passing Swords Dance and Iron Defense boosts.

    Trapinch- By definition, ("C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.") Trapinch should be a C tier mon. But, its lack of speed, major bulk, and power are too large of flaws for it to be C tier. Therefore, I think Trapinch should be D tier. With Eviolite and max HP, it can trap Skuntank and Absol reliably enough while also taking on Rock-types such as Regirock decently well. It has a very unique niche that no other Pokemon can really provide but has too many flaws to be higher than D tier.

    Murkrow- I think Murkrow should be C tier (kind of shaky so D tier can work as well). It's ability to trap threats and OHKO them through Perish Song is really great for certain teams that need those Pokemon gone. Priority FeatherDance also allows it to take on opposing Physical attackers surprisingly well. Ability to go offensive is also great with its good speed tier.

    Pikachu- I think Pikachu should be D tier (C tier can also be argued). It's ability to hit on both sides, physically and specially, hard is pretty great. A hard-hitting Espeed and a good utility move in Encore makes it a decent Pokemon. It's frailty and not the best speed, makes it D tier.
  14. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 21, 2011
    K time to get a few more of these responded to:

    @zbabyovr9000 ~I'll say that Natu could be in D tier since it does have a niche in being the only user of Magic Bounce, but does not do that great of a job at stopping any the common users of Stealth Rock. (Rock-types and Piloswine can all hit it super effectively) I'll still leave this open to anyone else that wants to discuss it.

    Granbull is our newest Pokemon in the Research Group (check it out!) but I'll say that I think it belongs in the D tier alongside Natu. Almost every set that it can run is done better better by another. Zangoose and Ursaring do offensive sets better, Miltank does defensive wall better with more support options, and Braviary can Bulk Up considerable better due to higher Speed, bulk, and access to recovery. It's not set that isn't completely outclassed is an offensive set with support options such as Thunder Wave and Heal Bell. This however doesn't give it a real niche in the metagame or a real reason to use it unless it is absolutely needed on a team. For this reason I would put Granbull in D rank.

    Banette is one of the few Pokemon that can use Trick Room effectively. I want to put Banette in the C tier because it has a niche that not many Pokemon have, but it is contested heavily by Trick Room Musharna. Banette differentiates itself enough with a suicide set and Destiny Bond to keep it out of D rank, in my opinion. Open to debate with whoever wants to.

    @Annoyer ~I don't have much experience with Pikachu or Murkrow (outside of LC) so I'll go over Mawile and Trapinch.

    I can agree for sure that Mawile deserves to be placed on this list since it has a lot of useful sets it can run and holds many effective niches. Mawile is crucial in Baton Pass teams, provides excellent support as a defensive Pokemon courtesy of its Steel-typing and Intimidate, and can even run an effective offensive set with Sheer Force and Swords Dance. Baton Pass and Defensive being the most outstanding niches that separate Mawile from other Pokemon, I would argue that Mawile be placed in B or C rank. I am personally leaning towards B rank because of how well it does pull off its sets against the odds of its mediocre stats. By definition Mawile is not a C rank Pokemon because it doesn't face any real competition regarding its BP and defensive sets, nothing else in NU can fulfill these niches like Mawile can.

    Trapinch is an interesting Pokemon as well, being a reliable counter of Skuntank and a lot of Rock-type Pokemon. Trapinch has a good base 100 Attack and Eviolite that allows it to come in a trap Pokemon such as Skuntank, Probopass, Bastiodon, Regirock, Golem, Mawile, and Lairon that help Pokemon such as Musharna and Articuno go through teams easier. If needed Trapinch can even tank a LO Sucker Punch from Absol after SR and Spikes and OHKO it with Superpower. However the good news ends here and Trapinch will fail to do anything other than trap these Pokemon. While these Pokemon tend to be common, a Pokemon that can only beat a select few and be useless to the rest is not very appealing. These kind of Pokemon makes me want to change up the definitions of ranks a little to fit most of these cases. Trapinch imo should be D after the definition gets changed.

    My new proposed definition for D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

    Summary of my proposed changes (open)

    Natu => D rank
    Granbull => D rank
    Banette => C rank
    Mawile => B rank (Open for debate)
    Trapinch => D rank

    I'll also compile a list of suggestions that haven't been responded to or I wanted some more input in:

    Also remember that this is a collective effort and just because I gave my thoughts on a Pokemon's rank doesn't mean someone else isn't allowed to contest it if they believe it should be. Just provide a good argument and I or another person in the Viability (Inspectors) Council will get back to you on that.
  15. Wobble


    Aug 14, 2012
    Sap Sipper Milktank is one of the more versatile pokemon in the tier and is one of the best normals all around. I believe it should be A ranked.

    When you considering it's effectiveness against Amoonguss, it's usage as a lead, it's ability to team support with Heal Bell and Stealth Rock as well as the ability to go Offensive with a Life Orb and reliable recovery as well as awesome speed, it really is a beast of a pokemon and I don't think a weakeness to Sawk is big enough to put it in B ranking.

    Especially sharing a ranking with pokemon like Zweilous.

    Zweilous has an extremely marginal niche. It has extremely poor versatility and can only really function as an inconsistent tank due to the extremely poor Hustle ability and mediocre defensive typing.
  16. erisia

    erisia former global moderator™
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Nov 29, 2011
    I think Garbodor should be moved down to rank B. Yes, it can set up Spikes, but in all honesty it doesn't do a great deal else, and I'd rather use Cacturne if I wanted a suicide spiker these days due to its far greater offensive capabilities. But that's just my opinion.

    Also, great thread guys! Been looking forward to this for a while.
  17. Dell

    Dell majestic pride.
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 19, 2012
    While for the most part you are right at the fact that it has limited options aside from setting up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, Garbodor still obtained the A ranking simply because of the given fact is that the amount of reliability, thus Spikes being such a significant move to boat, is skewed into a very significant margin into Garbodor's favor. Its useful set of resistances, bulk, support movepool, and a pretty decent speed to back up allows it to obtain a large number of opportunities of performing its job while being able to switch in and setup on/check many common threats, such as Amoonguss, Alomomola, Sawk, Gurdurr, and many more with ease. Garbodor is so reliable at Spiking that when played properly, Garbodor can essentially guarantee 2-3 layers of Spikes into the opponent's field.
  18. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Apr 22, 2012
    I've used offensive sap sipper miltank a lot lately, and I think it should stay B. It needs LO double-edge to 2hko amoonguss with a sap sipper boost (this is HUGE recoil) and most good players know that miltank's new favourite ability is sap sipper and will be spamming sludge bomb as long as it isn't dead. If they do use spore while you switch-in miltank, amoonguss will have enough bulk to take a double-edge, use clear smog and flee while abusing regenerator (if using return, he even has the time to synthesis instead). Even after this boost, it still very hard to find time to heal off while you take incredible recoil and you're still walled by the common alomomola and armaldo (missy and drifbim instead of momo if you use heal bell over punishment).

    Zweilous is better than you say. It's description says it, this thing spams harder outrages than rayquaza, has very good bulk with eviolite and a cool niche with his unique typing. Zweilous isn't used much because of the accuracy loss, but if you aren't running alomomola or a steel type, you're going to have a rough time everytime this thing comes in and will have to rely on the probabilities of it to miss (a terrible strategy). It will probably come in much more than once because it's pretty damn bulky and has great resistances and a good immunity (zweilous has superpower for steels, a very powerful crunch if you don't want to lock yourself and can also use a choice band effectively).
  19. FLCL

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Mar 14, 2010
    What makes Garbodor so good is the fact that so little Pokemon can outrun it while being able to OHKO it. Only Ground-types with significant Speed investment or a fast Psychic-type can outrun and OHKO it. Even then, it can even survive some weaker attacks from the likes of Focus Sash Kadabra and Seismitoad. This makes allows Garbodor to set up Spikes much more reliably than Cacturne, who dies to nearly every Fire Blast, Ice Beam, or Brave Bird while being outrun by most users of those attacks. It's simply not as effective as Garbodor in the current metagame.
  20. Raikaria


    May 20, 2009
    Honestly, I really disagree with Zweilous even being C rank, let alone B Rank.

    Zweilous is slow as molasses, and it's Hustle Boosted attacks all suffer from accuracy issues. Even with Evolite it fails to avoid being 2HKO'ed by many of NU's top threats, especially since a lot of them pack Fighting-type moves [Braviery, Zangoose, Emboar and Golurk all tend to pack Base 120+ fighting attacks. Samuwott usually packs Megahorn too]

    Yes, it *can* ruin something. However to do so it has to:
    Get in safely and avoid being 2HKO'ed or crippled in some other way
    The enemy doesn't switch in something that can withstand it's Outrage like Golem, or Metang
    Actually hit. We all know Stone Edge is known for hitting!

    Meanwhile he has no way to make up for the damage he sustains in those 2 turns before he can do anything [1 if revenge], nor hazard damage, because he has to run Evolite or he gets butchered by everything.

    Even if Zweilous gets a KO, it's locked into Outrage, and gets promptly revenge killed anyway.

    Most of the time to accomplish anything Zweilous needs something on your team to be KO'ed, and at best it'l take 1 thing down on the enemy team.

    It's a slightly different matter if you are running Zweilous in a Trick Room team, but even then there's far better mons you could use that don't have to worry about being weak to the biggest threats in the tier, and accuracy, such as Marowak. Not to mention if you're running Zweilous in Trick Room that means you're giving it a buttload of team support.

    It *can* work. But certainly isn't reliable to useful enough to fit the B Criteria.

    B rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the NU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

    It is a long streach to call Zweilous great, and it's ability to OHKO most things doesn't outshine accuracy issues, and problems getting in the first place.

    C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

    Zweilous is here at best. On Trick Room, as I mentioned before, he faces stiff competition from things like Marowak. Outside of Trick Room he is either dead weight or at best will trade 2 for 1 [Coming in to revenge kill something and then being KO'ed]

    D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are usable but have no real niche that gives them a chance to thrive in the metagame.

    I would also justify D Rank, because outside of Trick Room I honestly can't think of why I would want to run a slow, frail, weakness-ridden inaccurate pokemon that requires a sacrifice to do anything.
  21. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 21, 2011
    I agree with Furi on this matter. Garbodor has an excellent 75 Speed stat, great typing, and good defenses that lets it get up Spikes against a lot of teams. While it's true that Garbodor's main objective it to just set up Spikes it can more such as support in the form of Clear Smog on defensive sets or act as a check to Pokemon such as Ludicolo, Samurott, and Probopass with its more offensive set. All of these assets are why I think Garbodor should stay in A rank, it's simply better than Cacturne at Spikes in this current metagame. Cacturne's only real advantage over Garbodor would be STAB priority and Encore, the latter in which it will be losing access to in the coming days.

    Garbodor (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Gunk Shot
    - Drain Punch
    - Seed Bomb / Rock Blast

    This is the set I was referring to that combines good offensive presence, speed, and Garbodor's ability to lay out Spikes. Max Speed and Jolly nature allow it to outspeed key Pokemon such as Ludicolo and Samurott and check them if needed with STAB Gunk Shot. Drain Punch and Seed Bomb let Garbodor hit common Stealth Rock users such as Golem, Regirock, and Probopass while Rock Blast gives Garbodor a way to hit SubDisable Haunter.
  22. Wobble


    Aug 14, 2012
    You still stopped Amoonguss from doing it's job as a sleeper and as a pivot and now you have offensive momentum while doing that.

    Just because it doesn't necessarily KO Amoonguss outright doesn't mean it isn't effective against it. It is very effective. Especially the underused tank set.
  23. Raseri

    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 4, 2007

    I agree that B tier might be a bit to high for Zweilous. It should be C tier imo The eviolite set is probably its best, just because it can take advantage of a lot of Pokemon in the metagame. Dark/Dragon is actually pretty great typing. It gets a free switch in on Musharna, Cacturne, Garbodor, Miltank. If Zweilous comes in on one of these it is effective, as a miss doesn't spell the end. It isn't B tier worthy, just because the rest of the meta shits on it(Sawk, Emboar, Golurk, Alomomola, Gurdurr etc)

    SO I think Zweilous should be moved from B Tier --> C tier
  24. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Apr 22, 2012
    If you're opponent has any sort of skill in teambuilding, amoonguss is not his answer to normal spam. You aren't gaining much momentum with a plain miltank that desperately needs to recover after a life orb double-edge on a 114 hp poke. You're opponent will most likely switch to a rock or ghost type such as regirock that will be doing over 50% to miltank, you can try to overpredict and go for EQ, but if you fail amoonguss is living and miltank is dying. Even if you suceed, miltank has good chances of being prone to revenge kill after clear smog or S bomb, double edge recoil and 3 LO recoils and has never had the oppurtunity to heal up in this whole process (EQ usualy 2hkoes stuff like golem).

    As I said, I've used offesnive miltank a lot, and this situation is one I've faced multiple times. Miltank will manage to abuse amoonguss from time to time usualy against more novice players, but it certanly is not a reliable anwer to it (recoil is too big for it to heal off and deal damage simultaneously while tanking sludge bombs, even with return). Even if you did stop him from putting something to sleep, the shroom just doesn't give a shit with regenerator and will come back later to wear down miltank slowly while the poor cow will just be forced to switch or die. I think miltank should stay B, it's a great mon but it's not outstanding.
  25. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Apr 22, 2012
    Where's floaztel ?

    I'd put him B, standard sets are good, but floatzel also has many unexplored sets and a nice niche in a fast hard hitting switcheroo and baton pass user. He's also pretty effective in rain and has a decent special attack that tends to be neglected. I'd suggest floatzel for a futur research week btw.

    (Double posting like there's no tomorrow)
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