NU Viability Ranking

[Sweet Jesus]

I support FLCL about sawsbuck going to A tier. There is currently a huge speed competion between many pokes with 70 to 90 speed (ludi, samurott, sawk, braviary, gardevoir, zangoose etc). Sawsbuck outspeeds all of those and has a very powerful double-edge covered by horn leech for alomomola, ghosts and rocks and nature power for steels, fires and to bypass sucker punch. I think sawsbuck is one of the most anti-meta pokes atm even if he isn't killing amoonguss. As FLCL said, he can also run a baton pass set which works good with sap sipper and sawsbuck's access to cool boosting moves.

 

[Bent1ey]

Agreed with bumping Girafarig for C. It may not have the sheer stats of other pokes that share its typing, but it has Sap Sipper and STAB Psychic attacks, Baton Pass and offensive stats decent enough to keep random pokemon from setting up in front of it. Sap Sipper + Baton Pass is a useful combination. The only "but" is his weakness against prevalent Dark Types, but pokemon in the C rank are supposed to need help to function properly anyways.

 

[ebeast]

More support for A rank Bambi (Sawsbuck) incoming

Not much more can be said about Sawsbuck that hasn't already been said before; It has an excellent base 95 Speed, good base 100 Attack, brilliant STAB and coverage options, and access to boosting moves such as Swords Dance and Agility which it can also use to Baton Pass out to teammates. I would consider Sap Sipper the icing on the cake, though it is a little bit situational as most Grass-type Pokemon have a way to hurt Sawsbuck such as Amoonguss and Vileplume's Sludge Bomb or Ludicolo's Ice Beam. Against the Sleep Powder/Spore gang it can be used to stop them from trying to make one of your Pokemon go to sleep as you get a free switch to a Pokemon that can force Amoonguss out such as Gardevoir. Against Ludicolo it can come in on a predicted Giga Drain and follow it up by taking it down with a +1 Return, though both of these situations hold some risk. About Sawsbuck not being able to take down Amoonguss, it actually can with some proper support. Sawsbuck is capable of OHKOing Max HP / Max Def+ Amoonguss with +2 Life Orb Double-Edge after Stealth Rock all on its own, however the recoil will bring it down quickly due to the monstrous HP that Amoonguss has. However, with proper support in the form of Spikes, Amoonguss with be OHKOed by +2 Life Orb Return with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes up. Spikes also helps Sawsbuck because the residual damage helps wears down one of its best checks in Gurdurr very quickly. With some Spikes (Garbodor has great synergy with Bambi already) Sawsbuck is a force to be reckoned with and deserving of A rank.

• 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 88.89% - 104.4% (31.25% chance to OHKO)

Stealth Rock and it's gone for sure, recoil sucks though

• 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 75.23% - 88.89% (2 hits to KO)

Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes does 26% allowing Sawsbuck to deal with Amoonguss and also racks up residual damage on Gurdurr

 

[EonADS]

Adding on to what EBeast said, it's not as though it's difficult to get Spikes support for Sawsbuck either. Garbodor is one of the best Sawsbuck partners because it takes Fighting- and Poison-type attacks easily while luring in Ground-types for Sawsbuck to swith in on. Buck itself really only needs two layers of Spikes and it can sweep pretty much any team. It functions as an excellent sweeper with minimal support and performs several roles easily. Its movepool is also expansive enough that it can be an unknown quantity in a match. To quote our guidelines:

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the NU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

Sawsbuck essentially fits this description perfectly. A-teir Sawsbuck for sure.

 

[nyttyn]

There is no way in high hell Wartortle is C rank, or even D rank.

It can spin, it's a bulky wall..

and...

um, that's it.

Sure, it's really good at getting spins off, but what else does it do? Nothing.

Kind of like how Metang is really good at throwing out Stealth Rock but really can't do jack shit else.

(speaking of which E tier should be renamed to Metang tier)

 

[DTC]

There is no way in high hell Wartortle is C rank, or even D rank.

It can spin, it's a bulky wall..

and...

um, that's it.

Sure, it's really good at getting spins off, but what else does it do? Nothing.

Kind of like how Metang is really good at throwing out Stealth Rock but really can't do jack shit else.

(speaking of which E tier should be renamed to Metang tier)

Sounds exactly like a D tier Pokemon to me.

Also no, E tier will not be renamed Metang tier.

 

[ium]

There is no way in high hell Wartortle is C rank, or even D rank.
It can spin, it's a bulky wall..
and...
um, that's it.
Sure, it's really good at getting spins off, but what else does it do? Nothing.

"d rank: ... are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."

Kind of like how Metang is really good at throwing out Stealth Rock but really can't do jack shit else.

(speaking of which E tier should be renamed to Metang tier)

"d rank: ... are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."

metang has the ability to resist normal- and flying-type attacks while having a neutrality to fighting-type coverage moves coming from the likes of zangoose and braviary. that makes metang a good check to those two plus other stuff (wormadam-s, just to use as an example, is shakier since it gets fucked by brave bird and other flying-type attacks).

yes, metang is pretty shitty, but don't just jump on the whole bandwagon without actually taking the ranking definitions and the small—but still existent—niche that it still has into consideration.

 

[Iris]

Good, Natu gets the respect it deserves

Oh you double crossing Dragon Tamer. Natu too strong

 

[Molk]

There is no way in high hell Wartortle is C rank, or even D rank.

It can spin, it's a bulky wall..

and...

um, that's it.

Sure, it's really good at getting spins off, but what else does it do? Nothing.

Kind of like how Metang is really good at throwing out Stealth Rock but really can't do jack shit else.

(speaking of which E tier should be renamed to Metang tier)

Just going to say that from my experience, wartortle wasnt very good at pulling of rapid spins either, i havent played NU in a while so i dont know if im correct, but without foresight the turtle loses to every ghost except golurk iirc, lol. Wartortle is also p. bad at being a wall as well, its complete set up bait without haze, and it has no reliable recovery, so trying to come in to stop a sweeper can make you fail to spin later on, and vice versa. Tbh i think wartortle is even worse than metang but as i said, i havent played in a while, so its your call.

Edit: ebeast told me that wartortle loses to golurk too, so lol.

 

[nyttyn]

Joking about metang tier aside, Wartortle also loses to literally every ghost, has no recovery, has a bad movepool, rest for recovery, complete setup bait without haze (which is a shit move and fails against subs)...

It's just no good whatsoever and doesn't even deserve D rank. It's literally good at one thing only, and it's not even good enough at that to be considered reliable in its role.

 

[viol and bass]

haze (which is a shit move and fails against subs)

For the record, I think this is false. Smogon's Substitute page doesn't list haze as a blocked move, and from personal experience I'm fairly certain it works though subs.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

yah haze affects pokemon behind sub. That's why it's the best move to have against baton pass teams.

 

[Bent1ey]

Wartortle does seem awful enough to belong into the E rank, frankly even Metang looks a lot better.

 

[marilli]

Can we stop with the Metangs?

This has escalated to a meme that eclipses Metang@ in NU in every aspect.

 

[Kierany9]

Emolga:
While Electrode does the same job better, Emolga is still decent. It outspeeds most of the tier, Electroball wrecks paralysed opponents, and with +2 Spe/SpA, it's just too powerful. Charge beam boosts its attack sky-high after a few uses, has reliable recovery via roost and it can easily go for a physical set too(Acrobatics/Wild Charge/Roost/Pursuit).I think Emolga should be at least D rank.

Hide

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

Edit: My bad. I really need to switch from PO to Showdown. Scyther is NU in Pokemon Online, but not according to Smogon. Apologies for any inconvenience.

Regigigas:How to win a game of Pokemon with Regigigas((Leftovers) Substitute, Drain Punch, Return, Stone Edge)...

-Stall for 5 turns abusing Substitute, Drain Punch and Regigigas' defence stat.
-Screw up everything.

Regigigas has everything to be powerful. You can easily stall the turns it takes for Slow Start to deactivate. Regigigas is incredibly powerful and combines the physical bulk of Regirock and the special bulk of Regice. It has the power of Slaking and a special attack higher than most of the tier. If you don't want to stall off Slow Start, then Regigigas can easily run a special set. Regigigas deserves at least a C rank.

Hide

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Shuckle:
Shuckle is everything Bronzor wanted to be. With less weaknesses and more defence, Shuckle is incredibly useful. Contrary Shell Smash is a great way to boost both defences and Substitute can help waste away the turns. Power Swap evens out the users and the opponents base attack and special attack, rendering it almost useless. However, passive damage, Taunt and other moves will render Shuckle useless. Another alternative is Power Trick(switches Attack and Defence) and Trick room(via support, works way better in doubles). Shuckle becomes a monstrous sweeper, devastating everything with 230 base attack.Just as long as Trick Room is up, Shuckle can wreck everything in an instant. Like the previous strategy, it is with its flaws. A priority move will end Shuckle's sweep, as will Trick Room ending. Shuckle has won me a game, netting in a 3-0 sweep as my last Pokemon(Debating wether I should post a warstory of it here or not) and deserves at least a D rank.

Hide

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the NU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.

 

[jake]

Joking about metang tier aside, Wartortle also loses to literally every ghost, has no recovery, has a bad movepool, rest for recovery, complete setup bait without haze (which is a shit move and fails against subs)...

It's just no good whatsoever and doesn't even deserve D rank. It's literally good at one thing only, and it's not even good enough at that to be considered reliable in its role.

Wartortle does seem awful enough to belong into the E rank, frankly even Metang looks a lot better.

Have you even tried to play with Wartortle, ever? I'll agree with you on the fact that defensive Wartortle is piss-poor, but it's still the third best spinner available in the tier. If you need a spinner but can't fit Torkoal or Armaldo due to redundancies or whatever, then Wartortle's your man. What really amuses me is the fact that everyone says it's unreliable. Given the fact that I doubt anyone itt has actually used it, let me clarify: it's the only spinner in the tier with a guaranteed spin. It's not 2HKOed by any of the Ghost-types barring crits and it can Foresight + spin, something that neither Torkoal nor Armaldo can do. Yeah, of course it has its flaws, but a bulky offensive set along the lines of Surf / Foresight / Rapid Spin / Toxic is certainly good enough to perform all of the roles you need it to, and it even outspeeds and kills Golurk. How does this not fit the D rank? (I would even potentially argue for C, personally.) edit: oh cool it's already C, no need then

Don't be so closeminded and biased. Also, any further outright bashing of Metang or any other Pokemon in this forum will not be tolerated. It's okay to post calcs and examples of real situations where any given Pokemon would flounder or succeed, but complete exaggerations and statements made without basis aren't allowed itt.

@ above: Scyther isn't even NU. This alone kind of makes me want to doubt any of your points.

 

[Molk]

I really dont see much of a reason for regigigas to be D, i honestly think it should be in E :/. Slaking i can see being okay as a hit and run attacker, but i see no reason to justify using regi at all, lol. Even looking at the potential power regi has after the 5 turns its in, i dont like the thought of having to wait 5 turns to unleash it, especially with nothing like protect, reliable recovery, etc. For example, why wait 5 turns to use regigigas to its full potential, when i could have just used another normal like kangaskhan or zangoose 5 turns ago and probably have done way more damage in the long run. I know regi gets parafusion, but its very luck based and takes up two moveslots, not to mention if regi gets forced out you have to start the countdown over again. Also, even when slow start finally ends, chances are your opponent knocked you down to maybe half or even a third of your health, plus, your opponent has 5 turns to prepare for the incoming regi, giving them more time to think of a game plan to stop it. I really dont believe regi is worth using at all, and i would personally put it in E rank I might also put slaking there too, but i can see where it could be useful as a choice band pokemon at times, but regi is just bad imo.

TL;DR: Move regi down to E rank, and i would like to hear thoughts on whether slaking should be moved down as well, but i can at least see a small reason to justify using him.

 

[EonADS]

Meh, leave Slaking. It's at least a good hit-and-run attacker and it hits absurdly hard from the get-go. Regigigigigigas is pretty useless overall; you nailed just about every point there.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Regigigas is a normal type with 110 in both defenses and HP and poor attack and speed. I'll never understand why people try and play offensive with it. Surely Regigigas is better off using moves like Knock Off, Rain Dance, Thunder Wave, etc, and supporting the team?

Regigigas's defensive stats are amazing for NU, although it does have a limited movepool. I think it's weird seeing all these Subsitute/Rock Polish sets for it, when it has such poor offense. And with those defenses, it would have such an easy time switching in, and then statusing/setting up weather/knocking off/etc. whatever gets switched into it.

 

[elchupo]

@nyttyn

I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but Wartortle gets Foresight, meaning that it's one of the only viable spinners in the tier that can get get rid of hazards with impunity, if it so wishes.

Anyway, I really, really do not see why Zangoose is S-rank. To speak from my own experience, It has managed to sweep my team a grand total of once. And I run nothing more than Armaldo as a Normal- resist. It's incredibly frail, suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome (It wants Protect but it also wants Facade, and Quick Attack, and Close Combat AND Night Slash...) and is beyond easy to revenge.

The fact that it is above Cinccino is something I find very dubious. As much as it's usage does not reflect the extend to which Cinccino is good, Cinccino is much more dangerous to the average team than Zangoose is. Sure it runs into the same problems Zangoose does, but the fact that it's one of the fastest 'mons in the tier unboosted speaks volumes, and it can run a number of different sets that make it somewhat unpredictable (Scarf, Banded, LO).

The only people I really hear extolling the virtues of Zangoose are the same people over and over again, and makes me question whether its placement is simply the result of a few higher ups having a constant hardon for it.

 

[TROP]

Regigigas is a normal type with 110 in both defenses and HP and poor attack and speed. I'll never understand why people try and play offensive with it. Surely Regigigas is better off using moves like Knock Off, Rain Dance, Thunder Wave, etc, and supporting the team?

Regigigas's defensive stats are amazing for NU, although it does have a limited movepool. I think it's weird seeing all these Subsitute/Rock Polish sets for it, when it has such poor offense. And with those defenses, it would have such an easy time switching in, and then statusing/setting up weather/knocking off/etc. whatever gets switched into it.

Hi SHUCKE MAN, I disagree with Regigigas being a good defensive Pokemon. Sure its stats are good, and it may pose an offensive threat after 5 turns, but there are better Pokemon at fulfilling that role. For example, Musharna. She has Moonlight as well as Heal Bell, meaning she is not Toxic-bait like Regigigas. In a supporting role, Audino is generally better, which is saying quite a bit as Audino is not particularly effective right now. Best of luck in your endeavors!

 

[Kierany9]

Regigigas is a normal type with 110 in both defenses and HP and poor attack and speed. I'll never understand why people try and play offensive with it. Surely Regigigas is better off using moves like Knock Off, Rain Dance, Thunder Wave, etc, and supporting the team?

Regigigas's defensive stats are amazing for NU, although it does have a limited movepool. I think it's weird seeing all these Subsitute/Rock Polish sets for it, when it has such poor offense. And with those defenses, it would have such an easy time switching in, and then statusing/setting up weather/knocking off/etc. whatever gets switched into it.

A defensive set is very good for Regigigas. I never got the rock polish set either. Regigigas is also a viable special attacker, which many people neglect(Not great, but still viable). I might test a defence set instead of a stall, then physical attack set.

As for Shuckle, I don't see what is so gimmicky about Substitute+Contrary Shell Smash and Power Trick to slice the opponent's attack. It's basically a variety of SubCM. Even Baton Pass is more gimmicky. It's not the best, but once all potential counters have been swept, it can tank almost everything. An offensive Kanghastan took 9 turns to break Shuckles sub.

Then again... Lower rank=More neglected=Less expected=More surprise=Increased chance of victory.

 

[jake]

Anyway, I really, really do not see why Zangoose is S-rank. To speak from my own experience, It has managed to sweep my team a grand total of once. And I run nothing more than Armaldo as a Normal- resist. It's incredibly frail, suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome (It wants Protect but it also wants Facade, and Quick Attack, and Close Combat AND Night Slash...) and is beyond easy to revenge.

The fact that it is above Cinccino is something I find very dubious. As much as it's usage does not reflect the extend to which Cinccino is good, Cinccino is much more dangerous to the average team than Zangoose is. Sure it runs into the same problems Zangoose does, but the fact that it's one of the fastest 'mons in the tier unboosted speaks volumes, and it can run a number of different sets that make it somewhat unpredictable (Scarf, Banded, LO).

The only people I really hear extolling the virtues of Zangoose are the same people over and over again, and makes me question whether its placement is simply the result of a few higher ups having a constant hardon for it.

Cinccino's primary faults are that it's weak and cannot break through many physical walls without excessive support. Zangoose has no such faults, as it shreds through the entire tier with Guts-boosted Facade and excellent coverage. Armaldo is actually one of the few mons that can tank a hit from it and retaliate. In all honesty, Protect is merely a crutch for players who cannot maneuver Zangoose into the fray to activate its Orb. Zangoose doesn't need to run multiple sets to be effective, either (and as for the comparision, I really wouldn't say that Cinccino is unpredictable, with a grand total of 5 viable moves and 4 of them being on every single set..). In high-level play, Zangoose's only fault is that it is frail. That's it.

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the NU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

I would not use ladder experience against Zangoose as an argument against it, to be honest. Most ladder players using Zangoose that I have faced have been absolutely slightly below average with it.

 

[Dell]

I'm sorry to say for certain people that have posted here, but quite frankly, Zebraiken brought up a very good point here. The main reason why I feel that many people's post about what they feel about a certain Pokemon's ranking has floundered because they fail to get the point that ladder experience (and even personal experience in stellar cases), is a rather invalid argument against a Pokemon's potential. I can usually see this because of the fact that I theorymon A LOT lately and that I always use facts before opinions. There are very few, if any, Pokemon in the tier that can effectively take a hit from Zangoose and strike back reasonably enough to punish it, such as Armaldo. With some prediction, Zangoose can effectively beat the entire tier.

As for rankings, I believe that a lot that has been discussed are accurate so far. There might be a few threats that could be discussed a bit more to justify where they really should be placed. If anything else where to be moved to S rank, the closest that I would even consider are Sawk and Haunter. Because there are so few relevant checks to these threats in the current metagame, they can easily break down Offensive and Defensive teams with little effort and support. I also believe that Sawsbuck should be moved to A rank because of the many reasons stated above.

 

[Shouting]

I've only been playing NU for a little while, but I am currently running a Sunny Day team and I must say that Liepard, Volbeat, and Illumise ( I suppose) should move up to B rank. I can saftely say that there are no better weather inducers in NU. I've found Regirock to be surprising poor (It can't put up Stealth Rock AND set up Sunny day, it's too much for it.) In such an offensive team style as Sunny day, it is vital to get up Sun ASAP obviously and these pranksters are the best options for doing so. I assume that when people think of Volbeat they think of Tail Glow passing (which I'd admit it probably belongs in C rank for that role) and Liepard in regard to those silly swagger / thunder wave / foul play sets, but they are unrivaled when it comes to weather set up.

Volbeat / Illumise and Liepard are equal in my eyes in that they both have qualities that outshine another. First of all, they both have encore and access to Sunny day and Rain Dance. Both have Thunder Wave and U-turn. This alone makes them incredibly similar.

Liepard's advantages include access to taunt, which isn't that useful when you have encore, but it does help against a few specific pokemon like hazard setters. It also has a different typing which allow it to better handle certain threats. It especially comes in handy when facing Haunter, Musharna, and Driftblim which otherwise give Sunny day teams some trouble. Liepard is pretty much a full stop to both of them. This is important because Driftblim can lay the hurt on Sunny day teams if played correctly. It is also neutral to stealth rock which helps but liepard probably won't be coming in that often because 1 or 2 rounds of Sun/Rain is really all the team needs.

Now what Volbeat and Illumise have over Lieprad include Roost, which is huge because it allows it to encore a weak attack or status move / hazard and then heal. Stealth Rock is bad for it, but it can heal off the damage. They can also afford to invest in defenses unlike Liepard, who really needs speed investment, and makes them surprisingly resilient. Volbeat and Illumise are more durable than Liepard alone, yet they complement each other well.

Overall, Liepard is suited to typical Sunny day teams better because it emlinmates those threats I outlined which is huge. Also, the best sun sweepers have a weakness to a resistance or immunity to Liepard, which means it can easily encore and set up Sunny day. For exmaple, Liepard can encore Shadow Balls / Sucker Punches / Shadow Sneaks etc. used against Exeggutor, and Psychics used against Victreebel, making it rather easy to keep up Sun.

Although I can't speak much for Rain, Illumise/Volbeat probably fare better in Rain Dance teams because they survive Fire moves better and have Bug STAB for the Grass types like Ludicolo, but I use Volbeat on Sunny day and works just fine. They require almost no support whatsoever, you just obviously need things to abuse the weather. I think they both belong in B rank.