NU Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.
to B
After some discussion in the NU room, I realized how good Incineroar is right now. For one, it's one of the only counters to Vikavolt, being able to switch into the Buginium set. It's also a really good check to Vanilluxe, which is also a huge plus (specs HP Ground does 38% max). It also deals with Rotom-C, checks Slowbro, as well as faces off with Mismagius and Frolass. It can also check Jellicent if weakened. The only reason I wouldn't like it to rise any higher is because it's easily worn down by Rocks, as well as having no recovery. Other than this, Incineroar is a great Pokemon if you keep it healthy. Therefore, Incineroar to B.
TF are you talking about???

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vikavolt Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vikavolt Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Vikavolt Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That can't switch into either Vikavolt set.
It's also a really good check to Vanilluxe, which is also a huge plus (specs HP Ground does 38% max).
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage (one switch in if rocks are up)
It also deals with Rotom-C,
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 139-165 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (nice roll, gets one switchin if rocks are up)
as well as faces off with Mismagius
+2 252 SpA Mismagius Continental Crush (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 438-516 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Please do your math before saying things like this. The only mon you cited that Incineroar can reliably switch in on more than one time if rocks are up is Froslass - a mon which is literally used as a suicide lead to get spikes up in most serious matchups. Frosslass even runs destiny bond and focus sash so its going to get a few layers of spikes up and potentially take down Incineroar with it. Jellicent and Slowbro can fuck Incineroar over with scald or run Colbur Berry to half that damage from Darkest Lairat. Incineroar needs way too much support in both hazard removal as well as the special breakers used more are stronger than the ones used in an earlier metagame where it was better.
 
to B
Recently, the meta has shifted away from Braviary's favor, in quite a few ways. For one, Barbaracle has recently rose in ranking, which affects Braviary heavily. Scarf doesn't outspeed Barbaracle after a Shell Smash, and at that point even Razor Shell kills. One last Pokemon on the rise is Vikavolt, which checks Braviary as well. Druddigon is also a worthy mention, since it sets up rocks against it, Dragon Tails it out, as well as eating hits all at the same time. Unfortunately, it only does this to the scarf set, as Druddigon in set-up fodder for Bulk Up. Rhydon and Piloswine also get rocks up on Braviary, as well as work as amazing checks, specifically Piloswine, which has gained popularity as a rocker recently.

All in all, a lot of Pokemon that Braivary has a hard time dealing with are rising in usage, which is why I believe that it should drop to B.

edit:

to B
After some discussion in the NU room, I realized how good Incineroar is right now. For one, it's one of the only counters to Vikavolt, being able to switch into the Buginium set. It's also a really good check to Vanilluxe, which is also a huge plus (specs HP Ground does 38% max). It also deals with Rotom-C, checks Slowbro, as well as faces off with Mismagius and Frolass. It can also check Jellicent if weakened. The only reason I wouldn't like it to rise any higher is because it's easily worn down by Rocks, as well as having no recovery. Other than this, Incineroar is a great Pokemon if you keep it healthy. Therefore, Incineroar to B.
I feel as if Vikavolt isn't really a Braviary check so to say, Braviary out-speeds Vikavolt, of course Braviary isn't a smart switch in to vika, but vika isn't a counter I don't think. I think Braviary still deserves the b+. Sub bulk up can be really viable rn in the tier.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
TF are you talking about???

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vikavolt Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vikavolt Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Vikavolt Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That can't switch into either Vikavolt set.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage (one switch in if rocks are up)

252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 139-165 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (nice roll, gets one switchin if rocks are up)

+2 252 SpA Mismagius Continental Crush (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Incineroar: 438-516 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Please do your math before saying things like this. The only mon you cited that Incineroar can reliably switch in on more than one time if rocks are up is Froslass - a mon which is literally used as a suicide lead to get spikes up in most serious matchups. Frosslass even runs destiny bond and focus sash so its going to get a few layers of spikes up and potentially take down Incineroar with it. Jellicent and Slowbro can fuck Incineroar over with scald or run Colbur Berry to half that damage from Darkest Lairat. Incineroar needs way too much support in both hazard removal as well as the special breakers used more are stronger than the ones used in an earlier metagame where it was better.
Omg I want to apologize I have no clue what I was thinking when I wrote that last night I should've double checked, I removed it.
 
Sigilyph to A-/A

Sigilyph is a good check at the majority of the current hazard removals like golbat,hitmonlee and hitmontop.His good movepool (such as energy ball for sesimitoad and rhydon, heat wave for steelix and ferroseed and more options like dazzling gleam for guzzlord) and its access to magic guard who immune him to the damage of life orb make him a good threat in sticky web teams outspeeding his usual checks like sneasel, scarf vanniluxe, and rockium z virizion.

252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 6 SpD Seismitoad: 551-650 (133 - 157%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Guzzlord: 478-567 (81.4 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel: 291-343 (115.9 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vanilluxe: 239-283 (84.4 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sigilyph: 240-284 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sigilyph: 188-224 (65.9 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Earth

out of my head
is a Community Contributor
B+ > B: I really dislike Aromatisse in this metagame. I feel like there are very little reasons to use it over Audino-Mega currently, having a Ghost immunity and being able to regen before Mega evolution is really good, and Mega-Audino is also able to pull offensive sets much better than Aromatisse. Overall, I also think that it struggles to take most common attackers in the tier, such as Specs Vanilluxe, +2 Barbaracle, et al. I just feel like it's a very underwhelming Pokemon as a whole, and B+ is definitely overrating it.

I'm also supporting Rotom-C dropping to A+. As Lax stated in his post, it's very clear that the meta has adjusted a lot to it, notably with the rise of Guzzlord, Togedemaru, and Vileplume which are all good answers to Mowtom. I also think that Grass-types in general are being less effective in the metagame so there's no reason for Rotom-C to stay in S while Sceptile and Whimsicott are currently sitting in A/A+. I'm not gonna talk too much about it because I think enough posts have been made regarding this drop, so yeah.
 
Last edited:
I would second a Mega Audino rise, for a number of reasons:

1. No Opportunity Cost - it's the only Mega legal in NU.
2. Versatility. Its defensive Calm Mind set is nigh unbreakable without STAB SE moves, and is a great late game win con. That set can run Rest and Sleep Talk to function as a physically defensive pivot and status absorber early game, or Wish and Protect to act as a Wish passer before it's ready to sweep. Or you could run a more offensive Calm Mind set - one of the best lures in NU right now IMO, as given its massive movepool you can pick and choose what you want to lure and kill. Or hell, you can just use it as a wall.
3. Jack of all trades, master of all trades. In none of its roles is it outclassed. Defensive Calm Mind doesn't need to run a second attack like Slowbro does, letting it use Rest and Sleep Talk to negate status. Offensive Calm Mind has that insane coverage. While the pure wall set can't pass as big Wishes as Vaporeon can, it has Regenerator pre mega and superior bulk post mega.
4. It can be used on most playstyles. Stall teams always need clerics, otherwise Toxic ruins them. Bulky Offense loves bulky sweepers, and they don't come bulkier than Mega Audino (in NU anyway), while more offensive teams appreciate its luring capabilities, or just something to take the pressure of a frailer teammate.

TL;DR: Mega Audino to A Rank
 

Shadestep

the sound quality is pretty and rough
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
A- > A:
Piloswine is a really good Pokemon, and it's been seeing more and more success lately. It's one of the few, if not only, viable Stealth Rock-users in the tier that can easily take on Vanilluxe well, being one of the most dominant Pokemon in the meta at the moment. It's really bulky both on the physical and the special side, which makes it able to blanket-check a lot of High-Rank Pokemon in a pinch, including but not limited to Scarf Delphox, Scarf Rotom-Mow, and Emboar. It's also able to beat the most popular Rapid Spin-user at the moment in Cryogonal. The set I run has Toxic over Ice Shard, meaning it can reliably punish Slowbro, Cryogonal, and is able to always keep Stealth Rocks up in a 1v1 situation with Cryogonal vs Piloswine. Overall this mon is really good because it is fairly anti-meta, and has insanely good match-up vs most offense squads.
 

The Leprechaun

kubrick with two bricks
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
upload_2017-9-27_20-25-55.png

B+ > A-

Currently there are only 3 hazard removers in A and B ranks despite the fact that there are a number of hazard setters that are very effective like shuckle, garbodor, qwilphish and omastar. Out of these three, cryogonal offers the faster of the two rapid spins while being able to run defensive and offensive sets. Both of these sets check a large number of the top threats.

Cryogonal @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpD / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Toxic
- Recover

This is the defensive set that I've opted for and recently topped the ladder with. It has enough speed to beat base 91 mons to make sure it can consistently spin against fastish mons while still utilising its massive 135 base spdef to take on a majority of special attackers. These include rotom-c, vanniluxe, slowbro, whimsicott, sceptile, mismagius and vivillon, all of which are top threats.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cryogonal: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Vanilluxe Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cryogonal: 122-144 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 20% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cryogonal: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cryogonal: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mismagius Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cryogonal: 160-189 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cryogonal: 249-294 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Of course you can forgo a lot of the speed from this set and give it a +spdef nature to make sure that it checks many of these mons better. This set is just a mid way between full on defence and utility.

The offensive set is also great especially with how good freeze dry is at the moment. It can choose to run hidden power fighting to hit steel and ice types, forcing 50/50s with sneasel or it can run knock off to improve offensive utility.

The fact that it's the only viable levitating spinner is notable as well due to the fact that it is unaffected by webs, spikes and toxic spikes that can put huge amounts of pressure on hitmonlee and any others.
 
Archeops: B- to B
Archeops is a very anti-meta and versatile pick in NU atm. With Vanilluxe, Sigilyph, Emboar, Virizion, Xatu, and Whimsicott becoming more popular than ever, Archeops provides an answer with it's Rock and Flying STAB moves. Archeops is an incredibly versatile Pokemon as well, You can run scarf, Rockium or Flyinium Z, No item to benefit from acrobatics, Focus sash, or even Choice band if you need it. Archeops has ridiculous 140/112/110 offenses, meaning it can hit hard fast with both types of attacks, so it doesn't need to worry too much about physical walls. 110 is an excellent speed tier in NU as well, letting it outspeed almost all of the threats in NU. It makes a great suicide lead and can also be a great scarfer as well as filling several other roles. I think this Pokemon has a lot of potential right now and with Barbaracle most likely leaving, I can totally see it rising.
 

Sir Kay

Pack your meat bicycles, we're going to the moon.
is a Pre-Contributor
Archeops: B- to B
Archeops is a very anti-meta and versatile pick in NU atm. With Vanilluxe, Sigilyph, Emboar, Virizion, Xatu, and Whimsicott becoming more popular than ever, Archeops provides an answer with it's Rock and Flying STAB moves. Archeops is an incredibly versatile Pokemon as well, You can run scarf, Rockium or Flyinium Z, No item to benefit from acrobatics, Focus sash, or even Choice band if you need it. Archeops has ridiculous 140/112/110 offenses, meaning it can hit hard fast with both types of attacks, so it doesn't need to worry too much about physical walls. 110 is an excellent speed tier in NU as well, letting it outspeed almost all of the threats in NU. It makes a great suicide lead and can also be a great scarfer as well as filling several other roles. I think this Pokemon has a lot of potential right now and with Barbaracle most likely leaving, I can totally see it rising.

Half the mons you listed don't even have issues with Archeops. Specs whims will out speed and ohko with energy ball or moon blast after rocks damage, scarf Emboar and scarf Vanilluxe both out speed and ohko it and given those are two of the most common sets for it that's kinda a big issue. Scarf Archeops is straight up awful because you can't even use your main flying STAB which is what keeps it even semi relevant, the Rockium and Flyinum sets are cute but they're just 1 time use gimmicks because again, you don't get your main STAB.
Also I don't get what your point about if barb leaves its good is? Because one its still in the tier so saying, "it'll probably get banned so I'm applying it to a hypothetical meta where it's good so it should rise" is kinda silly. It should be judged based on its effectiveness as it is right now in the tier, not how it is down the line. And two barb doesn't even set up on Archeops so I'm not sure why barb is even relevant in your post? Normally yeah being a flying type you open yourself up to being set up on by rock types, but in Archeops case acrobatics + EQ kills it so you're not really set up bait for it. Unless you're the awful choiced sets in which case I understand, but those sets are awful anyways so its kinda a moot point.

I think Archeops is fine to stay where it is, its most effective role is as an anti-meta suicide lead which its rank is fine for.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
to A-
I was surprised to see this Pokemon this low, as it's actually a pretty cool Pokemon to use right now. It's Ghost/Electric typing makes it a good spin blocker, as well as does super effective damage against the tier's Water types. But what sets this Pokemon apart from Rotom-C is it's ghost STAB. Ghost is a pretty good offensive Pokemon in this meta, especially when paired with a z-move. Realistically, the best switch-ins are Normal types, and the Dark types don't like Thunderbolt, or can get pivoted out on, as well as the Normal types as well. However, Z-Hex does heavy damage to anything outside of those.

Rotom has a problem with a lot of the Dark types in the tier, including Sneasel and Guzzlord. However, most A- Pokemon actually have similar little flaws, (not just being weak to those two but just in general), so I don't think it's a huge setback for it to rise, but certainly a big enough setback for it not to rise further. However, Rotom has access to Volt Switch, which is actually it's niche over Mismagius as a ghost type. This allows it to pivot out of slower dark types like Guzzlord and Incineroar, but faster ones still pose a threat. Substitute sets can potentially win the MU against Sneasel, but it's a roll of the dice. Mega Audino is also a problem, so be sure to include appropriate teammates for that.

All in all, Rotom's STABs can be effective in the meta, being able to hit bulky waters, as well as being a good spin blocker. It has a few problems with certain Pokemon, but these weaknesses can be commonly patched, and most Pokemon are weak to the Pokemon anyway.

Edit:
Also, since it's become an issue, I'd like to mention that Mismagius and Rotom-N perform different roles and are used on different play styles. Just because they are both ghosts types does not warrant the fact that one outclasses the other. They are different Pokemon. It's ok to compare, but I just think that it's not a very good comparison, especially when they're used for different things.
 
Last edited:
to B+
I was surprised to see this Pokemon this low, as it's actually a pretty cool Pokemon to use right now. It's Ghost/Electric typing makes it a good spin blocker, as well as does super effective damage against the tier's Water types. But what sets this Pokemon apart from Rotom-C is it's ghost STAB. Ghost is a pretty good offensive Pokemon in this meta, especially when paired with a z-move. Realistically, the best switch-ins are Normal types, and the Dark types don't like Thunderbolt, or can get pivoted out on, as well as the Normal types as well. However, Z-Hex does heavy damage to anything outside of those.

Rotom has a problem with a lot of the Dark types in the tier, including Sneasel and Guzzlord. However, most B+ Pokemon actually have similar flaws, (not just being weak to those two but just in general), so I don't think it's a huge setback for it to rise, but certainly a big enough setback for it not to rise further. However, Rotom has access to Volt Switch, which is actually it's niche over Mismagius as a ghost type. This allows it to pivot out of slower dark types like Guzzlord and Incineroar, but faster ones still pose a threat. Substitute sets can potentially win the MU against Sneasel, but it's a roll of the dice. Mega Audino is also a problem, so be sure to include appropriate teammates for that.

All in all, Rotom's STABs can be effective in the meta, being able to hit bulky waters, as well as being a good spin blocker. It has a few problems with Pokemon in the higher ranks, but these weaknesses can be patched with the correct teammates. This, in my opinion, defines a B+ Pokemon.
I disagree with this nomination, mostly because its so blatantly outclassed by Mismagius in many ways. Rotom-N was fine last generation but with the power creep of SM rendering many mons nearly obsolete (think Rauros, even Mesprit), Rotom got hit hard too. Mismagius only benefitted from the turn of the generation because of Z moves. It now can run the incredible Z-Power Gem which allows it to beat things like Houndoom and Incineroar (+2 Continental Crush OHKOs assault vest incineroar, which is kind of incredible), something all other Ghost-types in the tier cannot do. Dazzling Gleam can hit things like Scrafty and Guzzlord, while Rotom would not be able to do anything back to them. Both can spinblock due to their ghost typing and both can pressure Golbat with their STABs.

However, Rotom is significantly weaker and slower than Mismagius, meaning Rotom needs to run things like Choice Scarf or Wisp + Z-Hex to get a decent damage output. The only bulky water-types in the meta right now are the Slow cousins, which Mismagius hits super effectively anyway with its Ghost-STAB, Seismitoad, which Rotom can't even touch with Thunderbolt, and Vaporeon, which Mismagius can simply set up on and KO. Rotom also has terrible bulk, which is extremely important because as a pivot Rotom needs to be able to come in many times. Both Braviary and Dodrio's Brave Bird are guarenteed 2HKOs after rocks, which is pretty sad since Rotom is one of the things that need to be able to KO these things considering it resists/is immune to both STABs and coverage. Mismagius has very good special bulk which helps it stay alive versus things like Delphox. Mismagius has an amazing speed tier as well and while Rotom's isn't bad by any means its just not that great in most scenarios.

Rotom has one advantage over Mismagius in that it can pivot with Volt Switch, but considering Rotom's terrible bulk and weak STABs in general means that its just not going to put in the work that Mismagius does. For that reason I don't believe that Rotom deserves to be only a single rank (Mismagius is at A- while you're nominating Rotom to B+) below Mismagius.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
I disagree with this nomination, mostly because its so blatantly outclassed by Mismagius in many ways. Rotom-N was fine last generation but with the power creep of SM rendering many mons nearly obsolete (think Rauros, even Mesprit), Rotom got hit hard too. Mismagius only benefitted from the turn of the generation because of Z moves. It now can run the incredible Z-Power Gem which allows it to beat things like Houndoom and Incineroar (+2 Continental Crush OHKOs assault vest incineroar, which is kind of incredible), something all other Ghost-types in the tier cannot do. Dazzling Gleam can hit things like Scrafty and Guzzlord, while Rotom would not be able to do anything back to them. Both can spinblock due to their ghost typing and both can pressure Golbat with their STABs.

However, Rotom is significantly weaker and slower than Mismagius, meaning Rotom needs to run things like Choice Scarf or Wisp + Z-Hex to get a decent damage output. The only bulky water-types in the meta right now are the Slow cousins, which Mismagius hits super effectively anyway with its Ghost-STAB, Seismitoad, which Rotom can't even touch with Thunderbolt, and Vaporeon, which Mismagius can simply set up on and KO. Rotom also has terrible bulk, which is extremely important because as a pivot Rotom needs to be able to come in many times. Both Braviary and Dodrio's Brave Bird are guarenteed 2HKOs after rocks, which is pretty sad since Rotom is one of the things that need to be able to KO these things considering it resists/is immune to both STABs and coverage. Mismagius has very good special bulk which helps it stay alive versus things like Delphox. Mismagius has an amazing speed tier as well and while Rotom's isn't bad by any means its just not that great in most scenarios.

Rotom has one advantage over Mismagius in that it can pivot with Volt Switch, but considering Rotom's terrible bulk and weak STABs in general means that its just not going to put in the work that Mismagius does. For that reason I don't believe that Rotom deserves to be only a single rank (Mismagius is at A- while you're nominating Rotom to B+) below Mismagius.
Edit:

So for one, I realized after writing this original post that Mismagius isn't a full outclass. They're actually different Pokemon the more I thought about it. Mismagius is more used to break teams and be fat, whereas Rotom works more as a pivot. This is something that you clearly disregard in your argument, assuming that they are the same for the mere fact that they have the ghost typing.

In the future, I would consider understanding two Pokemon before comparing them, which is part of what the VR is about.
 
Last edited:
Edit:

So for one, I realized after writing this original post that Mismagius isn't a full outclass. They're actually different Pokemon the more I thought about it. Mismagius is more used to break teams and be fat, whereas Rotom works more as a pivot. This is something that you clearly disregard in your argument, assuming that they are the same for the mere fact that they have the ghost typing.

In the future, I would consider understanding two Pokemon before comparing them, which is part of what the VR is about.
Mismagius isn't fat by any means, its just bulkier and has more survivability.

As I already said in our conversation on sim, you need to consider understanding that the VR is about comparing mons and not just look at them in a vacuum, which is what you were/are doing. A key part of Viability is that it has its own place in the metagame, which my post was trying to point out that Mismagius steals a lot of Rotom's thunder (no pun intended). My post was a bit too much focused on Mismagius compared to Rotom but I also want to get the point across that just because Rotom can pivot and has Will-o-Wisp doesn't mean it deserves B+ rank. Rotom-C can do the same things but with significant more bulk and now it has a powerful STAB attack in Leaf Storm. They both are 2HKO'd by flying types as well despite rotom-n having the resist to flying.

Yeah Rotom has its niches that it performs well in and thats why its ranked in the first place, but putting it all the way up at B+ is kind of a overstep in my opinion.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
Mismagius isn't fat by any means, its just bulkier and has more survivability.

As I already said in our conversation on sim, you need to consider understanding that the VR is about comparing mons and not just look at them in a vacuum, which is what you were/are doing. A key part of Viability is that it has its own place in the metagame, which my post was trying to point out that Mismagius steals a lot of Rotom's thunder (no pun intended). My post was a bit too much focused on Mismagius compared to Rotom but I also want to get the point across that just because Rotom can pivot and has Will-o-Wisp doesn't mean it deserves B+ rank. Rotom-C can do the same things but with significant more bulk and now it has a powerful STAB attack in Leaf Storm. They both are 2HKO'd by flying types as well despite rotom-n having the resist to flying.

Yeah Rotom has its niches that it performs well in and thats why its ranked in the first place, but putting it all the way up at B+ is kind of a overstep in my opinion.
Maybe saying fat was an overstatement I agree, but I did not put anything in a vacuum here. Rotom isn't just ranked for having Volt Switch dude, it has other uses. I feel like we should move on from this conversation because it seems to be moving no where. Let's move on to other things man.
 

Shadestep

the sound quality is pretty and rough
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
A+ > S:
Whimsicott is one of the most dominant Pokemon in the meta right now, and people (including me) have finally seen the light of day and started using it properly. Support sets / Pixie Plate Encore are really bad and shouldn't really be used outside of... Weather? I guess. However Life Orb + Encore is really good now that Barbaracle is still in the tier, and Specs Whimsicott is arguably the best set for it even. It just nukes so much shit with Moonblast and has all the right coverage it needs to get past its supposed checks. For example, Golbat and Garbodor get 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock Damage (most Garbodors even without SR), and Golbat is insanely easy to pressure and leave at low HP. Its speed tier may even be the most convincing part; 364 Speed with Timid outspeeds pretty much every non-Scarf Pokemon in the tier. Whimsicott really does not have any guaranteed counters besides maybe Mega Audino... It has a lot of checks (Scarf Delphox, Scarf Emboar, Scarf Vanilluxe, Steelix), but all of them are prone to getting worn down and don't have reliable recovery. Whimsicott with any hazard support, even just Stealth Rock, is super threatening, because if it predicts right, it can basically 2HKO the entire tier with just it's stabs, Psychic, or HP Ground. Tailwind or Encore on non-Specs Whimsicott is also really nice on offense since it can really easily throw some momentum your way and is really crucial in Offense vs Offense match-ups. Whimsicott should be S-rank due to its lack of reliable checks and counters, speed tier, and decent typing + coverage.
A- > A:
I'm not sure what happened to Steelix that made it A- rank, but it's still really really good. It checks a lot of relevant Pokemon and while Xatu is becoming more popular by the day, Steelix is still more than worthy of a slight rise. It hasn't gotten any better or worse to my knowledge, but it's an A-rank mon for sure. It's usage shows that too; being one of the most used Pokemon in the tier surely must mean something... It can check a lot of offensive Pokemon in a pinch; Barbaracle, Whimsicott, Virizion, Vanilluxe, etc. and is overall a really solid physically defensive tank that has a lot going for it. I don't think I'll have to explain why Steelix is good or what it does exactly but I just think it warrants a rise to A, since I think people are underrating it a bit right now. Yeah, it's really easy to pressure and/or check, but it still checks a decent portion of the metagame fairly well, and is also offensively threatening to most offense teams that don't run Xatu.
 
--> A- agree
--> A+ the recent metagame trends really havent fallen in rotom's favor, which made this mon not be S caliber anymore
--> S in recent high level play we have been seeing a lot of whimsicott. Basically every game its in it poses a massive threat, being very versatile in its moveset (with tailwind, memento and other stuff at its disposal) and having amazing fairy+Grass Stab in addition to access to Psychic. Thankfully the pixie plate set has fallen out of favor, which was very lackluster in damage output and really wasnt great overall. Now Choice Specs and Life Orb dominate the metagame, with great offensive pressure and fantastic coverage.
--> A+ really good mon, easiest hazard control in the tier, also top used mon in snake, says something about its effectiveness

(i wrote this in the morning and forgot to post, so excuse the overlap with shades post)

edit: MILTANK IS THE GOAT , i agree with cyan
 
Last edited:
My quick thoughts on the noms so far.

to A-: Finally, people have realized this thing's defensive potential. Glad to see it where it belongs.
to S: Honestly, I'm of the opinion that putting Whimsi in S rank is mildly overrating it, because Vika, Phox and arguably Sneasel have similarly crazy threat levels, but I'm not opposed to the idea either. It is a highly impactful mon that is rather difficult to prep for and handle reliably. (pro tip: stop using max spe cryo rofl)
to A+: Please. It's been the most consistent hazard control for a while now, and provides so much utility in one slot it's not even funny.
to A+: I agree, meta has been trending against it a lot lately, and it simply isn't as scary to see at team preview as ice cream, boar, or brip.
to A: ugh i'm done arguing about this damn snake just put it wherever idc zz, the reasons for it dropping literally haven't changed but it's whatever
to A: Solid mon, but I'm not sure how I feel about putting on the same level as Lee, Guzz, and Scept. I suppose I'd have to see it in play a bit more to get a solid opinion.
to B: Yeah drop this thing it sucks
to A: On one hand, its stellar bulk is nothing to scoff at and it checks a lot of scary shit. On the other, it's pressured to basically always click Wish when those threats are around cause it very very barely checks them, and having to click Wish and usually Protect every time you're on the field gives out a lot of free turns. Also, it can't relaibly use regen as it's forced to mega ASAP to check the stuff it's supposed to. Additionally, a lot of things can just brute force past it regardless - CM Phox (w/ psyshock or if audino doesn't have cm itself), SD Viriz, NP Taunt Mismagius, CM Sigi, and NP Doom can all just boost in its face and beat with with varying levels of success thanks to its pitiful damage output. I'd wait on this.
to A-: Really neat spinblocker that is annoying as hell to balance builds. I support a rise, but I advise everyone to use max HP instead of max Spa on wisphex please >.> it's way better



Now, I have a few noms of my own.

to B (from C+): Having this godmon in the same rank as booty garb like Weezing, Persian-A and Spiritomb is probably illegal in 80% of the world. I know two subranks is a bit of a jump, but SDef Miltank is seriously amazing rn like holy shit it walls half of S, half of A+, half of A, and a bunch of other random stuff in one slot while simultaneously supporting with Heal Bell and setting Rocks pretty consistently.
to B- (from C+): Another criminally underrated mon that deserves to come up a bit, it walls the ever threatening Whimsi and Barb (!) as well as quite a few other things like Rott and Mowtom, and Leech Seed is the most annoying shit ever. Sure, it's cockblocked hardcore by Xatu, but if people can still ride lix dominated in a meta filled with it you can manage to weaken it/get it off the field this is really really annoying to deal with.
 

Sir Kay

Pack your meat bicycles, we're going to the moon.
is a Pre-Contributor
--> A+ the recent metagame trends really havent fallen in rotom's favor, which made this mon not be S caliber anymore
to A+: I agree, meta has been trending against it a lot lately, and it simply isn't as scary to see at team preview as ice cream, boar, or brip.
Okay so this annoys me a bit. What meta changes exactly have happened to make it worse? You both say they've happened but offer no explanation as to what has happened. Rotom-mow is still doing exactly what its always done. Its extremely hard to switch into, and the most meta adaption that has happened is the rise of the Steelix + Guzzlord/Cryogonal cores which aim to force it into 50/50s to deal with it. The fact that 1 play style has been able to adapt to force it into 50/50s isn't enough in my opinion to warrant it to drop from S.
 

Earth

out of my head
is a Community Contributor
Okay so this annoys me a bit. What meta changes exactly have happened to make it worse? You both say they've happened but offer no explanation as to what has happened. Rotom-mow is still doing exactly what its always done. Its extremely hard to switch into, and the most meta adaption that has happened is the rise of the Steelix + Guzzlord/Cryogonal cores which aim to force it into 50/50s to deal with it. The fact that 1 play style has been able to adapt to force it into 50/50s isn't enough in my opinion to warrant it to drop from S.
I'm not concerned by the two posts you've quoted, but I would like to give my two cents as I agree with them.
I don't think that nowadays, in the current metagame, Rotom-C is "extremely hard to switch into". I'm gonna name the Pokemon that I think hurt Mowtom to the point where I think it definitely should drop: Guzzlord, Vileplume, defensive Cryogonal at some extent and more recently Ferroseed, which is definitely more than the "Steelix + Guzzlord/Cryogonal" core you've mentioned. They're all fairly common Pokemon that have had some representation in the tournament scene and they do hurt Rotom-C. I believe the metagame has easily adjusted to it, running sets such as Protect Steelix that can scout it and totally stop choiced mowtoms; metagames just change a lot and I think Rotom-C just isn't as good anymore, and personally I'd say that it's overshadowed by Whimsicott right now as it feels a lot more efficient. Don't get me wrong, I still think Rotom-C is good and definitely A+ worthy, but just not S-rank material anymore.

Also while I'm at it, supporting a rise for Ferroseed and Miltank, they can both take on a lot of common Pokemon currently (Whimsicott, Grass-type mons / Vanilluxe respectively) which is totally amazing.
 
Last edited:

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
to B
I completely agree with this nomination, it's such a good ice resist. It also gets up rocks, can reliably Toxic, and has it's own recovery. What's not to love about this Pokemon? For real though, I'm not sure why it's so low, like it's super good man. I'd even ask to rise to A- but I think B is fine for right now.

to S
This is also a nomination that I agree with, Whimsicott is so impactful on the meta right now, it's not even funny. Not only does it have some incredible support moves like Tailwind, Memento, and Encore, Whimsicott also has a pretty decent damage output. It works great as a check to things like Guzzlord, Druddigon, Hitmonlee, and a few others. All three of those Pokemon, mind you, are super good right now. So, I think it's important that this Pokemon rises to S rank, because it's indicative of how impactful it currently is.

to A-
I don't know why this isn't already here, I think this Pokemon is super fun to use, offensive and defensive sets alike. Defensive sets can spin rocks reliably, as well as eat special hits from practically anything, bar things like a Fire Blast from Guzzlord. It's Freeze Dry can also hit not just things that are weak to ice, but things like Slowbro as well, which is also hit by Toxic, which it can set up reliably like Miltank. I think this Pokemon is similar to Miltank, in the fact that they both act as good walls. The main difference is, Cryogonal can spin rocks, whereas Miltank sets them up. Definitely rise this thing, extremely fun to use.

to A+

Ok, so for once, I'm going to have to disagree here. This isn't because I think Xatu is bad at it's job, because it certainly isn't, but some of the Pokemon used in the current meta kind of eat Xatu alive, such as Guzzlord and Sneasel. Vikavolt and Vanilluxe also fit into this category. I feel that A+ is too high for Xatu, because while it can be bulky, some SE hits will easily take it down, and it's weaknesses are pretty common in the meta game.
 
Last edited:
to A+

Ok, so for once, I'm going to have to disagree here. This isn't because I think Xatu is bad at it's job, because it certainly isn't, but some of the Pokemon used in the current meta kind of eat Xatu alive, such as Guzzlord and Sneasel. Vikavolt and Steelix also fit into this category. I feel that A+ is too high for Xatu, because while it can be bulky, some SE hits will easily take it down, and it's weaknesses are pretty common in the meta game.
Whaaaaatt??? Part of the reason Xatu is so good is because it eats Steelix alive while keeping hazards off the field... not the other way around. Xatu can run so much coverage to beat possible threats (Grass Knot for Toad and Rhydon, Heat Wave for steelix), or it can run a cm set of the likes to break through opposing stall without being suspect to toxic. It can literally roost off damage from steelix even if it doesn't run heat wave by abusing roost with a rocky helmet.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
Whaaaaatt??? Part of the reason Xatu is so good is because it eats Steelix alive while keeping hazards off the field... not the other way around. Xatu can run so much coverage to beat possible threats (Grass Knot for Toad and Rhydon, Heat Wave for steelix), or it can run a cm set of the likes to break through opposing stall without being suspect to toxic. It can literally roost off damage from steelix even if it doesn't run heat wave by abusing roost with a rocky helmet.
Eh I think you are right here but Xatu doesn't usually run Heat Wave so that's why I made that post. I've actually never seen a CM set, so that's pretty cool that you brought that up, I might try that. I never thought of it abusing Roost either, so that's pretty cool. I still don't support a rise though, since my other reasons remain true.
 
Eh I think you are right here but Xatu doesn't usually run Heat Wave so that's why I made that post. I've actually never seen a CM set, so that's pretty cool that you brought that up, I might try that. I never thought of it abusing Roost either, so that's pretty cool. I still don't support a rise though, since my other reasons remain true.
Heat wave on Xatu is run on tons of sets, literally check usage dude
1630:
|Heat Wave 37.230%|
1760:
Heat Wave 29.086%
Its one of the most commonly used mons in the tier right now, and if you check NUPL Usage Stats you would see that its the 4th most commonly used Pokemon by our elite players in the meta (It was #1 used Pokemon in the semifinals round!). And look, whats the #1 used Pokemon in the usage stats there? Thats right, Steelix, which Xatu is the only Pokemon who can beat it while keeping hazards off simultaneously.

As regards to your other reasons, they may be true, but they don't mean anything. Xatu loses to Sneasal, Guzzlord, and Vikavolt. True. Meaningful? Not in the least. Why would Xatu have to be in on them? Thats like saying, "Oh, Whimsicott loses to Emboar, Vanilluxe, and Togedemaru, its not good!". Whimsicott does other jobs and relies on other teammates do deal with these Pokemon, similarly to Xatu. Xatu's job is to control hazards - and it does this job better than any Pokemon in the metagame right now. It beats what its needs to, and in a tier where hazard control and hazard setting is somewhat limited, Xatu has potential to do both (by bouncing back hazards, which is actually very important!) without even sacrificing a moveslot. Its extremely splashable as well. It can also pivot, set status, and is not vulnerable to status itself, allowing it to stall out nearly anything it needs to without fear of a random Toxic. The situational use of Xatu, as well as the looming threat of it being there pose a huge threat to the opponent (and also mess with the opponent's mindset!), is invaluable to almost any team. You can see the effect it is having on the tier in the rise of Mold Breaker Druddigon which is one of the few things that can actually set rocks on Xatu.

Xatu is A+ material for sure.
 

Earth

out of my head
is a Community Contributor
long overdue imo

UR > C+: Type:Null has been used in the tournament scene (SSD and even NUPL), and for a good reason. I think it's a very great Pokemon thanks to the fact that it has a really good special bulk with the EVs investment and the fact that it can hold an Eviolite, which makes it able to check one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier: Vanilluxe, and other various Special attackers. It has a really solid niche in its good bulk and SD RestTalk set as it can't get hit by a critical hit, which is why I can definitely see it getting ranked. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-320073

Discussion point:
: Ditto was definitely great in the Barbaracle metagame and I think it should've been ranked back then, but I still believe it has a niche currently with people using Shell Smash Omastar and other set-up Pokemon such as Virizion, Delphox, and Vivillon at some extent. I think it could be C material, but I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.