NOC OC NOC GAME OVER - Now Despair

[Fairy MMM]

Vote Fairy MMX

That divine being notice from acid's flip is very interesting, implies either fairy is the other one with Martin or pancake was

I'm curious to find out if he had a LPV or is lynch immune. Given we don't know if mafia still exists but the lack of a second kill implies they don't, this is the best lynch for our win con this round.

If he fulfills his win condition we'll find out pretty quickly if he wins with town or not

I know I'm not
And killing pancake would have made little sense/he would have been revived

You will receive a single use version of the roles of the people you selected. You know there are two people whose divine might you cannot fully duplicate, but you will still receive some sort of role.

Waaaait a second I just realised something
His targets were
Asek, Blazade, smashlloyd20, Martin, KnightsOfCydonia
So 2 of them are divine beings
Martin is basically confirmed as one
Asek, smashlloyd and Knights definitely weren't/aren't one
Which leaves Blazade as the other divine being...?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

No, we don't know he targeted both divine beings, only that there were two whose roles he could not fully duplicate. The most logical second divine beings is pancake's tree stumper.

But see here's the thing. I believe you're playing to your win con. I don't believe your win con works with town. I'm not certain I believe smash was active enough to target you and block your kill. I do believe that of the players remaining their actions are unlikely to fit a scum meta. I believe that it doesn't matter regardless, that lynching you is playing to the town win con.

If you die and there's more kills, now we know there's more scum and we lynch among the not confirmed towns until we win. If you die and the game ends we win.

The best play for the town win con is to lynch the only person who we currently know may not win with town, who is most likely to have performed the night kill, who has conflicting information the prevents us from being certain about their role, and who we know is playing to their win con which may or may not be compatible with town - and if it's not who has every reason to lie to town to achieve it.

Sorry, but you're the best lynch today and are definitive priority over me/Martin/former/blazade

Aubisio Asek Former Hope Blazade Paperblade Fort Colorcastle

I'm confident this is the lynch, any alternative thoughts?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Wrt LYLO if we lynch fairy and there's another mafia who kills a conf town we'll be sitting at 7 remaining after today with two conf towns out of asek/aubisio/fort and me/former/blazade/paper/Martin lylo would be at three, meaning that two lynches+kills get us there. Therefore scum would kill the two remaining conf towns. For myself knowing I'm town, my game plan would be to lynch former first as the most probable non-town, Martin second as the most likely neutral who also probably reveals if paper is still conf town or converted, and blazade in LYLO if it goes that far, while we all throw whatever protective roles we have at fort and the other conf towns

 

[Blazade]

fairy who did you try to kill instead?

 

[Fairy MMM]

fairy who did you try to kill instead?

Texas.

 

[Fairy MMM]

No, we don't know he targeted both divine beings, only that there were two whose roles he could not fully duplicate. The most logical second divine beings is pancake's tree stumper.

Riiiight... I thought that his role PM implied the 2 targets that were forced on him were the divine ones. Meaning you'd have to be a divine being because nothing else makes sense. Though you're still denying it...?

But see here's the thing. I believe you're playing to your win con. I don't believe your win con works with town. I'm not certain I believe smash was active enough to target you and block your kill. I do believe that of the players remaining their actions are unlikely to fit a scum meta. I believe that it doesn't matter regardless, that lynching you is playing to the town win con.

Frankly this is the first time I'm playing smogon's version of mafia and I have a limited idea of what roles we actually use here, never mind the fact I've never played a game of mafia with OCs. If I was mafia/a wolf with a non-compatible wincon, I wouldn't even know where to start fakeclaiming especially when I sub in and get thrown at this as an outed neutral (whose sub fakeclaimed to hell and back for no reason) so I thought it was best to put all my cards on the table after my first mafia kill since I had nothing to lose then. I do believe me being voted mostly comes from my sub leaving too much of a mess for me to possibly clean up.
Now, I'll be honest and say I don't believe lynching me plays against the town wincon, but it's a fact that getting rid of me does delay it being achieved because if there was no scum for me to kill I'd either have left the game or town would have won, and that scum is who you need to kill.

If you die and there's more kills, now we know there's more scum and we lynch among the not confirmed towns until we win. If you die and the game ends we win.

You do realise keeping me alive means we can get rid of non-confirmed town more quickly, right? Again, there's more scum than town motivation in wanting to get rid of me.

The best play for the town win con is to lynch the only person who we currently know may not win with town, who is most likely to have performed the night kill, who has conflicting information the prevents us from being certain about their role, and who we know is playing to their win con which may or may not be compatible with town - and if it's not who has every reason to lie to town to achieve it.

Sorry, but you're the best lynch today and are definitive priority over me/Martin/former/blazade

I like how you mentioned my wincon being incompatible with town twice
But that aside
1. Already said I can win with town, can't do more than that to make you believe it
2. Also already said I was most likely roleblocked, but either way my kill was you and it failed
3. there is no conflicting information other than Haruno fakeclaiming the kills that I and nobody else performed on smashlloyd (the FIRST kill, not the second) and Walrein so if you could tell me what conflicting information exists that would be great.

is fairy a neutral that's generally helpful or unhelpful to town?

This is an aside, but given that this was the last thing he said he definitely was aware of me being an outed neutral so I strongly believe he did RB+Track me. I do wish mafia kept him alive even if just to verify that I tried killing Texas aka not-conf!town thus proving that my wincon is authentic, but whatever I guess...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Riiiight... I thought that his role PM implied the 2 targets that were forced on him were the divine ones. Meaning you'd have to be a divine being because nothing else makes sense. Though you're still denying it...?

I am not a divine being. Don't see how I can really prove it other than my having never implied such at any point in the thread or flavour claiming.

Frankly this is the first time I'm playing smogon's version of mafia and I have a limited idea of what roles we actually use here, never mind the fact I've never played a game of mafia with OCs. If I was mafia/a wolf with a non-compatible wincon, I wouldn't even know where to start fakeclaiming especially when I sub in and get thrown at this as an outed neutral (whose sub fakeclaimed to hell and back for no reason) so I thought it was best to put all my cards on the table after my first mafia kill since I had nothing to lose then. I do believe me being voted mostly comes from my sub leaving too much of a mess for me to possibly clean up.
Now, I'll be honest and say I don't believe lynching me plays against the town wincon, but it's a fact that getting rid of me does delay it being achieved because if there was no scum for me to kill I'd either have left the game or town would have won, and that scum is who you need to kill.


You do realise keeping me alive means we can get rid of non-confirmed town more quickly, right? Again, there's more scum than town motivation in wanting to get rid of me.

I'm not opposed to keeping you alive. But given what we know right now you are the definitive best lynch for the town win-con. Getting rid of non-confirmed town only matters if you die and the game doesn't end.

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

I am not a divine being. Don't see how I can really prove it other than my having never implied such at any point in the thread or flavour claiming.


I'm not opposed to keeping you alive. But given what we know right now you are the definitive best lynch for the town win-con. Getting rid of non-confirmed town only matters if you die and the game doesn't end.

Let's get this straight: its the best lynch from your POV; not necessarily town. I'm still not 100% convinced that the alpha-omega JOATs are town. But this argument is 1: old 2: unprovable and 3: therefore pointless.
I will agree to disagree with you that your alignment is town

lynch fairy mmm

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Let's get this straight: its the best lynch from your POV; not necessarily town. I'm still not 100% convinced that the alpha-omega JOATs are town. But this argument is 1: old 2: unprovable and 3: therefore pointless.
I will agree to disagree with you that your alignment is town

lynch fairy mmm

I would argue that in this case its the best lynch from both my POV and from the towns, regardless of whether those are the same

 

[Fairy MMM]

If anyone else wants to claim being a divine being then by all means do so now but wanting to deny that makes me doubt Texas being town
Also, if any town/neut/mafia wants to claim the kill then please do so

As for whether or not keeping me alive is a good idea, what makes it different from double/triple lynching?
Both accomplish the same thing - getting rid of the non-conftown as fast as possible while keeping the conftown alive.
Another thing that makes me iffy is you trying to sell your own point of view as town's general consensus when all we had agreed on was Haruno/BT/Knights' deaths
And again I could have easily not killed Knights if my wincon was not what I'm saying it is

I also find it mildly interesting that both Texas and Martin voted me first thing but maybe I'm reading too much into it

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

You are vastly underselling how easy it is for you to claim a win con that is close in nature to your actual win con in order to claim that you have been truthful to your word when you do what you say, working towards your win con while gaining favour of town.

It is not true that I am selling my viewpoint as that of the town, I've been very clear where I'm speaking from my opinion vs town belief as seen here

For myself knowing I'm town, my game plan would be to lynch former first as the most probable non-town, Martin second as the most likely neutral who also probably reveals if paper is still conf town or converted, and blazade in LYLO if it goes that far, while we all throw whatever protective roles we have at fort and the other conf towns

vs here

The best play for the town win con is to lynch the only person who we currently know may not win with town, who is most likely to have performed the night kill, who has conflicting information the prevents us from being certain about their role, and who we know is playing to their win con which may or may not be compatible with town - and if it's not who has every reason to lie to town to achieve it.

Double/Triple lynching is a viable option, but also a significant risk for town. As things stand (and unless Fort Colorcastle can provide from insight based on his protection), we currently have little reason to believe in the existence of another scum, bar your claims. If, as I suspect, you require one more kill to complete your win con and thus win solo, going for a multi-lynch affords you the opportunity to stealth the vote, buy yourself the night to complete your kill and win with no hookers/inspectors to interfere.

If anyone doesn't believe I'm town and/or acting in the town's best interests I'm happy to talk to you and defend my actions which include being responsible for discovering and orchestrating the lynch of three of the four mafia members.

 

[Martin]

honestly im just bored at this point; I've been just kinda going with the flow for most of the game, so doing the same now is consistent with my behaviour all game. IDK about texas, but for me ur reading too deep into it.

Honestly I don't doubt what your wincon is; I think you're telling the truth in the respect of what your wincon is. The one thing which I am not 100% confident whether you are telling the truth about is if you can win alongside town, because if we keep you alive and you achieve your wincon and you can't win alongside town then town would've chucked the game there and then. Without seeing your role PM we can neither confirm nor deny whether you are telling the truth or not, which is why it is logical to try and eliminate you.

FWIW given the alpha/omega thing I think it does make Texas kind of suspicious from my POV considering I'm town, but honestly it's hyper speculative with regards to what we can get out of it and honestly if he's mafia he deserves an oscar for his performance 'cause he's not let it on at all all game--making me believe he's probably town and that the alpha/omega is in reference to day/night.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

FWIW given the alpha/omega thing I think it does make Texas kind of suspicious from my POV considering I'm town

And vice-versa, this is the only reason I have to suspect you of being neutral, everything else would suggest town

Unless Former is a neutral/fifth mafia or blazade is a really good mole (some scummy things in early game but also several things mafia would never do) the most probable and simplest explanation is that Fairy's win con diverges from town and the game will end with his lynch.

 

[Martin]

Also, as an aside to comment further on the alpha/omega thing, if we assume I am neut (I'm not) then Texas would have to be a neut too; I stand by the statement I said whenever it was that it makes no logical sense for the "opposites" to be a neut and a town; if the alpha/omega is alignment indicative (IDT it is), then it either has to be neutral+opposing neutral or town+scum, and both me and Texas know what's in our role PMs and can deduce what the other is from that if we assume that this theory is correct (I'd be extremely surprised if this theory was correct).

Anyway yeah we can discuss the relationship between these when it is a bit more relevant, I just thought I'd post this now so I can quote it later or whatever.

 

[Fairy MMM]

You are vastly underselling how easy it is for you to claim a win con that is close in nature to your actual win con in order to claim that you have been truthful to your word when you do what you say, working towards your win con while gaining favour of town.

Right so let me take you through a thought process
Let's say I've been lying through my fucking teeth the entire game
Let's say I've tipped the scales of my wincon in favor of killing more scum so that town is more inclined to leave me alive
And let's say my actual wincon would be to kill 4 town and 1 scum
Furthermore, let's assume I've also been lying about the existence of mafia in this game and that I either don't know about mafia being alive or know they're all dead
That would basically imply that I've killed smashlloyd
It would also mean I'd have left the game which as you can see I haven't
So if my wincon is not what I say it is then I need an explanation of how huge the gap between my real wincon and my claimed wincon is and how I could still claim it because I don't see it

And vice-versa, this is the only reason I have to suspect you of being neutral, everything else would suggest town

Unless Former is a neutral/fifth mafia or blazade is a really good mole (some scummy things in early game but also several things mafia would never do) the most probable and simplest explanation is that Fairy's win con diverges from town and the game will end with his lynch.

Good luck after my death I guess, because I'm clearly not going to avoid this lynch any time soon and all I can say is that my wincon is exactly what I've said and I have not been lying about it.

 

[Fairy MMM]

Honestly I don't doubt what your wincon is; I think you're telling the truth in the respect of what your wincon is. The one thing which I am not 100% confident whether you are telling the truth about is if you can win alongside town, because if we keep you alive and you achieve your wincon and you can't win alongside town then town would've chucked the game there and then. Without seeing your role PM we can neither confirm nor deny whether you are telling the truth or not, which is why it is logical to try and eliminate you.

Does my wincon sound like one that interferes with town's wincon to you or not?
I feel like it's reasonable for you to be paranoid but I'd rather you think about it for a while whether or not you believe my wincon causes an instant town loss.
I'd honestly post my role PM if it wasn't against the rules just to get this argument over with.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Or you could be lying about how many people you have to kill. Perhaps it's 6 instead of 5. Perhaps you're a straight SK and win at a certain number of players left and thus killing is to your win con but you can't have town suspecting you.

Such a situation would have zero conflict with what you've claimed and would align with your actions thus enabling the situation I previously described.

From my perspective this is the smart play for a neutral too, if your win con diverges from town you are never going to tell town what your actual win con is and you're going to do everything you can to convince them that you aren't a threat to their win, and same for if the mafia remains.

Under the relatively safe assumption that there are no mafia remaining I see this as the most likely situation. Remember that the you're the only person claiming there's an additional mafia and the rest of the situation doesn't add up. I re-read the thread, no one still alive and non-confirmed has play that lines up with scum and the mafia teams defeatist attitude makes no sense if they still had something to play for.

The only other possible alternative is that you aren't the last neutral, there's one more among me/former/paper/blazade/martin, but if that's the case you don't need to be alive for us to take them out if their win con isn't compatible with town.

 

[Fairy MMM]

Or you could be lying about how many people you have to kill. Perhaps it's 6 instead of 5.

Wrong!
If I say I have to kill 5 people when I have to kill 6 people I'd be questioned after I kill said 5 people and thus this would be suicidal and outright stupid to claim.

Perhaps you're a straight SK and win at a certain number of players left and thus killing is to your win con but you can't have town suspecting you.

This also doesn't work for the same reason as above.

Such a situation would have zero conflict with what you've claimed and would align with your actions thus enabling the situation I previously described.

Wrong!
Without the "kill quota" there is no explanation for Vanillish idling on night 1 or 2 (whichever one Lightwolf said, I don't remember and don't have/didn't ask for all of my sub's actions other than the 2 kills he got) and possibly other nights too so it would not fully explain my actions.

From my perspective this is the smart play for a neutral too, if your win con diverges from town you are never going to tell town what your actual win con is and you're going to do everything you can to convince them that you aren't a threat to their win, and same for if the mafia remains.

Wrong!
The smarter play is to not claim neutral which my sub inevitably did.

Under the relatively safe assumption that there are no mafia remaining I see this as the most likely situation. Remember that the you're the only person claiming there's an additional mafia and the rest of the situation doesn't add up. I re-read the thread, no one still alive and non-confirmed has play that lines up with scum and the mafia teams defeatist attitude makes no sense if they still had something to play for.

Or you could be scum. There's a bloody reason that I wanted your flip which was unrightfully denied to me and it's the chance that the mafia team was wifoming to make you nigh untouchable for the rest of the game by gambiting on a bus and antagonizing you.

The only other possible alternative is that you aren't the last neutral, there's one more among me/former/paper/blazade/martin, but if that's the case you don't need to be alive for us to take them out if their win con isn't compatible with town.

If I was the last neutral remaining, the game would be over.

 

[Samoyed]

can you give a near verbatim win on Fairy MMM?

 

[Samoyed]

ooo

new trump in town

 

[Blazade]

You see, this is the time to hash out the questionables. It wasn't when confirmed scum were trying to get the lynch off them. We have to seriously consider what the other people are. We may have a 5th mafia here, we may have even more neutrals, and lylo might be closer than we think.

However Fairy DOES seem to be acting as if a lynch will work on him now so that's encouraging

 

[Fairy MMM]

You see, this is the time to hash out the questionables. It wasn't when confirmed scum were trying to get the lynch off them. We have to seriously consider what the other people are. We may have a 5th mafia here, we may have even more neutrals, and lylo might be closer than we think.

However Fairy DOES seem to be acting as if a lynch will work on him now so that's encouraging

I mean... I already told you black on white that it would work. It would also not advance the game at all to lynch me but I've been over that so often it sickens me by now.
Also you get town points from me which means I'm not killing you tonight (that is, if I somehow don't get lynched).

And by the way Texas you're absolutely right in that, if I had a wincon that's incompatible with town, I WOULD lie through my teeth throughout the entirety of this game and make it stick somehow. What does seriously frustrate me is that 1. you're suggesting I'd be doing it in such a suicidal and plain stupid way and 2. I'll probably inevitably get lynched even though I'm not actually lying (if I could throw the towel I'd do it around now, but I don't have a towel to throw)

 

[Blazade]

Yeah you can say that, but I'm looking at the pace of arguing and the emotional reaction and it reads like you have some stake in this lynch whereas if you really wanted to kill some scum to leave the game you'd be all for us wasting our time and not lynching today.

 

[Former]

btw, looking up uses of "divine being" in the thread since I thought the term sounded familiar.

On one of the really early days, the announce was

"There is suddenly a loud voice
echoing throughout the town, "I am
the Alpha and the Omega, the First
and the Last, the Beginning and the
End." After this was spoken, there
were no sounds and on there was a
message on the town board
engraved onto the wall stating
Martin is a divine being."

Now I think at this point Asek was already dead so it was probably the mafia announcer who did that. But specifically calling out Martin as a "Divine being" strikes me as rather odd and forethoughtful especially given they had a role cop and haruno's later rants against certain people.

 

[Fairy MMM]

Yeah you can say that, but I'm looking at the pace of arguing and the emotional reaction and it reads like you have some stake in this lynch whereas if you really wanted to kill some scum to leave the game you'd be all for us wasting our time and not lynching today.

Town would never follow me on a no lynch though...? Or have I been playing incorrectly and wrong in assuming this?
Like if town WOULD let me then I'd definitely nl all day every day but the only reason I'm actively trying to find reasons to lynch other people is that I doubt town would ever follow me on an nl.