I was recently in another few websites when I noticed there have been an increase in the usage of stall teams and defense teams. I heard that even the mightiest sweepers will have a huge dent in them. All I am saying is will sweeping pokemon never be used much in this generation?
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Offense or Defense?
- Thread starter BlitzTheReaper
- Start date
the metagame tends to fluctuate over time, and random pokemon get their highs and lows. cresselia is becoming a lot more popular from what ive noticed, and this is causing a a decrease in sweepers like garchomp and slamence, but an increase in wall breakers.
once the number of stall breakers becomes too high for stall teams to handle, offensive teams will take place, and then stall teams and so on for ever and ever. we're just in a boring stall cycle right now, itll be fun again sometime soon
once the number of stall breakers becomes too high for stall teams to handle, offensive teams will take place, and then stall teams and so on for ever and ever. we're just in a boring stall cycle right now, itll be fun again sometime soon
How long will this last? Stalling teams are boring and irritating.
*sigh*. There's no way to tell.
When this gen first came out, all the mixed sweepers and overpowered sweepers seemed to run rampant and almost unchecked at times, especially the mixed attackers. I THANK players like Obi for taking the time to make the game more balanced by making these brutal stall teams and pokemon.
On a personal note, stall teams are exciting and cool.
When D/P first came out, people were saying how it was to be stall teams' utter demise. They said that stall would be absolutely dead, how the metagame would be very offensive, and how it would be impossible to counter every threat in the game with just 6 Pokes. It just goes to show, doesn't it?
Even the other sites talk about Obi. That stall strategy must be good if it is talked about outside smogon. I'll try stall team later as you said they are effective and excellent. Still won't this overcentralize the battling?
thank obi for posting his team lol.
remember theres still alot of innovation ahead. Adv metagame was stil evolving even right before D/P came out. my advice is to just keep trying new things, throwing a team together every other time you sign on to shoddy and finding out its weaks and tightening it up :)
if it helps, i use mono choice item team (ripped idea directly off of hip) that has pretty good success =)
edit: same time post about obi :o
remember theres still alot of innovation ahead. Adv metagame was stil evolving even right before D/P came out. my advice is to just keep trying new things, throwing a team together every other time you sign on to shoddy and finding out its weaks and tightening it up :)
if it helps, i use mono choice item team (ripped idea directly off of hip) that has pretty good success =)
edit: same time post about obi :o
I even heard it is nothing unless you battled Obi himself. The guy who posted second in this topic maybe right though.
hey, making a good stall team takes skill too. you can argue that it takes more prediction skills and damage calculations to run a good stall team. if you can't break a stall team with your sweepers, that's just your problem (though i have to say that i have that problem ALL THE TIME).
Things that break my stall team (Walrein + Hail):
1. Powerful Toxic spike absorbers
After spending 2 turns setting up toxic spikes, nothing is like watching a Toxicroak come in, swords dance on the switch, and start sucker-punching my sweepers, and using close combat on anything weak to it.
2. Momentum
When I'm fully set-up to stall, I can take Choice Banded Garchomp outrages and then outstall the Garchomp. However, if you get a guy setup that I cannot phaze out for whatever reason (OHKOs my phazer, you've weakened my phazer, etc. etc.), then my team is done for.
3. Friggen Taunt
Funny thing: so many pokemon can do the taunt / setup routine. Weavile can swords dance / taunt + sweep with double-stab Night Slash / Ice Punch. Infernape can Swords Dance or Nasty Plot and Taunt, as can Gliscor. Do I need to mention taunt gyarados?
Taunt stops healing attacks, status attacks, and... well... everything. And walls don't exactly hurt some of the bulky taunters like Gyarados that much.
4. Outstalling the stall
There are a few pokemon that outstall my team, but I think that is because every stall team has a weakness to a counter-stall. Clefable has much less defenses than my stall team, however the defenses are "good enough" to survive the hits from... everything, and sit around for the rest of the game.
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Things I noticed that may hurt other stall teams
1. Subsitute
All stall teams have a phazer. So don't sub unless you're ready to deal with the phazer in some sort of way. They get as bulky as Swampert and Hippowdon, and have many types like Skarm, Suicune and even Articuno gave me trouble once.
But sub up, and they can't toxic you, they can't status you, they can't do anything to you really. If you're bulky enough, they can't even break your sub.
1. Powerful Toxic spike absorbers
After spending 2 turns setting up toxic spikes, nothing is like watching a Toxicroak come in, swords dance on the switch, and start sucker-punching my sweepers, and using close combat on anything weak to it.
2. Momentum
When I'm fully set-up to stall, I can take Choice Banded Garchomp outrages and then outstall the Garchomp. However, if you get a guy setup that I cannot phaze out for whatever reason (OHKOs my phazer, you've weakened my phazer, etc. etc.), then my team is done for.
3. Friggen Taunt
Funny thing: so many pokemon can do the taunt / setup routine. Weavile can swords dance / taunt + sweep with double-stab Night Slash / Ice Punch. Infernape can Swords Dance or Nasty Plot and Taunt, as can Gliscor. Do I need to mention taunt gyarados?
Taunt stops healing attacks, status attacks, and... well... everything. And walls don't exactly hurt some of the bulky taunters like Gyarados that much.
4. Outstalling the stall
There are a few pokemon that outstall my team, but I think that is because every stall team has a weakness to a counter-stall. Clefable has much less defenses than my stall team, however the defenses are "good enough" to survive the hits from... everything, and sit around for the rest of the game.
--------
Things I noticed that may hurt other stall teams
1. Subsitute
All stall teams have a phazer. So don't sub unless you're ready to deal with the phazer in some sort of way. They get as bulky as Swampert and Hippowdon, and have many types like Skarm, Suicune and even Articuno gave me trouble once.
But sub up, and they can't toxic you, they can't status you, they can't do anything to you really. If you're bulky enough, they can't even break your sub.
Yep. People kept saying that stall teams were dead. I think it started out small saying that they wouldn't be as effective as in ADV but people just started exaggerating until it seemed like DP was completely offense based.
I think there has been a shift toward mix sweepers opposed to just sp att sweepers or physical sweepers. machamps with fire blast, magnezones OHKOin blissy when kabooming, infernape, draco focus punch dragonite, chainchomp, flygon, heatran and more.
why are there more mixed sweepers?
teams carry more stallers/hazers to deal with the special physical split.
why are there more mixed sweepers?
teams carry more stallers/hazers to deal with the special physical split.
mixed machamp totally rocked my team which isnt very stally at all :X
the point about dp metagame being predicted as totally unstally is a good one and one that gives me hope.
eventually someone, or a group of people gets a good idea and stats using it, often changing the metagame.
just wait till the metagame sees... wormajump-s
the point about dp metagame being predicted as totally unstally is a good one and one that gives me hope.
eventually someone, or a group of people gets a good idea and stats using it, often changing the metagame.
just wait till the metagame sees... wormajump-s
Already the dominance of stall teams is coming to an end. I have seen very successful teams using 6 sweepers win over stall teams simply because the stall team didn't get a chance to set up. Eventually we will hopefully achieve some balance with the number of stall teams on Shoddy; I'm tired of every match taking 12+minutes.
Regarding Obi's team: the only reason Obi's team was any good was because Obi was using it. I have run into more than enough annoying copies to say that without a fair amount of skill and experience behind it that team is more than beatable. It's fairly obvious that Obi put an incredible amount of time and effort in both planning and testing what was an all-around great team, and it's quite honestly annoying to see people use it assuming that it will make them godly at pokemon. It won't.
Stall was a viable strategy before everyone saw Obi's team, and it still is now. --TAY
Regarding Obi's team: the only reason Obi's team was any good was because Obi was using it. I have run into more than enough annoying copies to say that without a fair amount of skill and experience behind it that team is more than beatable. It's fairly obvious that Obi put an incredible amount of time and effort in both planning and testing what was an all-around great team, and it's quite honestly annoying to see people use it assuming that it will make them godly at pokemon. It won't.
Stall was a viable strategy before everyone saw Obi's team, and it still is now. --TAY
And people ahve gone as far as to say that next gen will be even more like that, what with another 100 new pokes. But obviousally if next gen we see a whole new wave of great tanks it wont...
I run a very successful stall team, which I've had for 3 months. I find the biggest problems to be powerful mixed sweepers with Life Orb, as Protect easily beats out any Choice users. Also in my last few battles, even though I pack a few phazers, Nasty Plot passing Togekiss is a pain in the ass. One more piece of advice for stall teams is to find a way around Cresselia, as its immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Cress was usually the reason my matches turned into a last poke stallfest but I've incorporated counter measures to get around it. Good things to beat a last pokemon that a stall team has trouble with (Clefable, Cresselia) would be a Toxic user (doesn't work against Clefable obviously), a poke with Perish Song and/or a single high powered sweeper.
I play offensive teams aswell occasionally and I find them much more fun though. My rule for my offensive team (5 sweepers + Lax) is that each pokemon has a way around every wall in the game, whether it be by Explosion or with a random move. My team has an 80 % win rate, and I never have trouble with any single poke, as I either Boom on then or have a move that hurts them. Having no walls can be hard at times, but thats why I pack a resistance to every type. I also pack a revenge killer with a Scarf because the biggest threat to an offensive team is a fast poke that can kill each of your pokes with ease
I play offensive teams aswell occasionally and I find them much more fun though. My rule for my offensive team (5 sweepers + Lax) is that each pokemon has a way around every wall in the game, whether it be by Explosion or with a random move. My team has an 80 % win rate, and I never have trouble with any single poke, as I either Boom on then or have a move that hurts them. Having no walls can be hard at times, but thats why I pack a resistance to every type. I also pack a revenge killer with a Scarf because the biggest threat to an offensive team is a fast poke that can kill each of your pokes with ease
I don't get all the stall hate. Stall is ay more fun than boring offense play. Offense play is so simple, so boring. Quick, boring matches.
I hope the cycle doesn't go back to offense again; I despise the very thought of it.
Blast you and your offense and Garchomps and Infernapes. Blissey, Hippowdon, Walren are the real pokemon of manliness!
Stall is very successful as a group of pokemon can easily counter the popular offensive pokemon. Also, with offensive teams, most of the time it's a bunch of sweepers and two walls thrown in and thought "good to go." which adds to stall's success.
However, sweeping pokemon will be used sometimes... Don't give up hope.
I hope the cycle doesn't go back to offense again; I despise the very thought of it.
See? Bias against stall FTL.
Agreed to the max.
Blast you and your offense and Garchomps and Infernapes. Blissey, Hippowdon, Walren are the real pokemon of manliness!
Stall is very successful as a group of pokemon can easily counter the popular offensive pokemon. Also, with offensive teams, most of the time it's a bunch of sweepers and two walls thrown in and thought "good to go." which adds to stall's success.
However, sweeping pokemon will be used sometimes... Don't give up hope.
I've tried a Stall team. If I just used freaking WishBlissey I probably could've been more successful with it.
Anyways, even my new current team uses more Defense than Offense, and mainly it's because of one thing: basing a team around Rhyperior is... tough. You wouldn't believe it how hard it can be without using Baton Pass at all and just using Paralysis as a strategy and then Swords Dancing (lol, almost nigh impossible). But nevertheless, Defenensive is the way to go, even if you have to pull random tricks to beat Blissey / Hippowdon, it's easy with Toxic somewhere on your team.
Really I hope Stall teams work for a while, especially the Hail ones. I've been willing to try it out, but never thought of anything past Froslass / Abomasnow / Walrein (dangit Dragontamer I hope you write that Hail-Stall team strategy guide soon, it'd be pretty nice to use actually). Actually I DID think of Curse Regice for the hell of it (lol Curse).
Anyways, even my new current team uses more Defense than Offense, and mainly it's because of one thing: basing a team around Rhyperior is... tough. You wouldn't believe it how hard it can be without using Baton Pass at all and just using Paralysis as a strategy and then Swords Dancing (lol, almost nigh impossible). But nevertheless, Defenensive is the way to go, even if you have to pull random tricks to beat Blissey / Hippowdon, it's easy with Toxic somewhere on your team.
Really I hope Stall teams work for a while, especially the Hail ones. I've been willing to try it out, but never thought of anything past Froslass / Abomasnow / Walrein (dangit Dragontamer I hope you write that Hail-Stall team strategy guide soon, it'd be pretty nice to use actually). Actually I DID think of Curse Regice for the hell of it (lol Curse).
