I will concur with the majority that it should be quickbanned so that we can allow the tier to settle a bit and move on to the next biggest vish to fry.
Are there anti ban arguments? Like, at all? Except the first post with the LO darmanitan shenanigans I have seen basically no one arguing we should not ban darm. What’s the point if 90%+ of the playerbase agrees? I don’t think people will get mad at the council since almost all of them agree with the ban to begin with.I have no strong preference either way but I err on the side of a suspect test for PR reasons. Darm is fucking busted but if it ends up quickbanned, it would probably be the least fucking busted thing to ever be quickbanned. At least with a suspect, we can say we gave him his due process and let people air their anti-ban arguments in a more formal thread than this one. That being said, a suspect test would mostly be a formality because this thing doesn't have a snowman's chance in hell (fucking sue me) of avoiding the ban, and perhaps it would be better to just give him the axe now so we can move on toDracovishother problems in the metagame.
I wouldn't use the people who have posted on this thread as an indication of the community as a whole, in which case 90% is likely a stretch. A suspect is always the "safer" route to take, just because it's a lot easier to "accept". Which is why they mentioned the PR aspect. I personally don't care one way or the other as I feel it should go regardless of the method taken.Are there anti ban arguments? Like, at all? Except the first post with the LO darmanitan shenanigans I have seen basically no one arguing we should not ban darm. What’s the point if 90%+ of the playerbase agrees? I don’t think people will get mad at the council since almost all of them agree with the ban to begin with.
There are always anti-ban arguments. There were arguments against banning Naganadel and Marshadow, however weak they may have been, but mostly the point is more that a suspect looks better in the eyes of people who aren't familiar with the tiering process. I know many don't care about outsider's opinions on Smogon, and maybe they're right not to, but I have to admit I don't like the fact that many people in the community seem to have no idea how we operate, or all the misconceptions that fly around about us as a result. As such, I think being able to say that Darmanitan was banned by a democratic suspect process where anyone who can prove they aren't shit at the game can cast a vote is an easier pill to swallow than it being banned at the sole discretion of the OU council, regardless of whether or not the Smogon community heavily supports it.Are there anti ban arguments? Like, at all? Except the first post with the LO darmanitan shenanigans I have seen basically no one arguing we should not ban darm. What’s the point if 90%+ of the playerbase agrees? I don’t think people will get mad at the council since almost all of them agree with the ban to begin with.
Darm is in the same fashion hindered by dugtrio, who can trap it and revengekill with minimal chip damage such as rocks. I’d say that banning dugtrio actually reduces the amount of counterplay you have against darm, but as I’ve previously stated they can both get banned for all I care.Re: anti-ban.
I think almost everyone here agrees that Darm is overwhelming at the moment, but there’s definitely room to debate in which order we proceed to tackle the issue.
I’ve aluded to this in previous posts, but as a predominantly balance player I have to say that when I do have bad games against Darmanitan, it is regularly the result of Darm + Dugtrio.
We’ve been here before. Trapping has been busted for as long as team preview has existed, and whilst we entertained the possibility that Dugtrio might be ok if some of its major targets are cut (Heatran, Chansey etc), I think people are still finding ways to make it an issue. Particularly by abusing its ability to take out Toxapex and Excadrill.
Back in BW OU, we were hesitant to ban Dugtrio, and instead back-to-back banned Pokemon that were prime beneficiaries of trapping cores (Genesect, Tornadus-T, Drought+Chlorophyll were very commonly utilised with Dugtrio). We eventually clocked that trapping itself is uncompetitive, and that it alone provides absurd team support making some borderline Pokemon truly ridiculous to face. I wish we’d banned Dugtrio first, and then evaluated whether Genesect, Tornadus-T, and particularly sun offense were truly problematic (they probably were but with hindsight we objectively did this in the wrong order).
I’d rather we didn’t do the same thing here. Part of Darmanitan’s ridiculousness is its access to U-turn, effectively giving it zero safe switch-ins, and combined with the fact that all its checks bar Rotom are grounded, it is a prime candidate to take advantage of Dugtrio. Dugtrio can even do serious work against Jellicent with the right set choice. Dugtrio’s ability to invalidate Ttar + sand rush excadrill also puts a ton of pressure on sand offense to countersweep in the face of Darmanitan, in other words turning what should be a good match-up into a disdvantageous one.
If we ban Dugtrio and Darmanitan is still broken (which is still very very likely) then thats all fine, no harm done. But if we ban Darmanitan and whatever other offensive mons, and then a year later decide Arena Trap is still busted, we’ll look back and question what those Pokemon would have looked back in a trap-less metagame.
Tl;dr my “anti-ban” argument is that darm is ridiculous but maybe pushed over the edge by arena trap, which we will likely ban later anyway (it will inevitably be when Dugtrio stall becomes a thing lol). Darm is probably busted regardless but we should tackle things in the correct order just in case.
i dont think there's much sense in trying to appease the outsiders who would be upset by a gdarm quickban since a good deal of them would probably be upset if we banned it thru a suspect test too since they tend to disagree with the notion of banning pokemon in its entirety. suspect tests make sense when there is a genuine discussion to be had or when a decision can be truly seen as truly controversial (such as the dmax ban) but i dont think doing a suspect test for PR reasons is necessary where it concerns a single pokemon that is considered broken by an overwhelming majority of the communityThere are always anti-ban arguments. There were arguments against banning Naganadel and Marshadow, however weak they may have been, but mostly the point is more that a suspect looks better in the eyes of people who aren't familiar with the tiering process. I know many don't care about outsider's opinions on Smogon, and maybe they're right not to, but I have to admit I don't like the fact that many people in the community seem to have no idea how we operate, or all the misconceptions that fly around about us as a result. As such, I think being able to say that Darmanitan was banned by a democratic suspect process where anyone who can prove they aren't shit at the game can cast a vote is an easier pill to swallow than it being banned at the sole discretion of the OU council, regardless of whether or not the Smogon community heavily supports it.
But that being said, a suspect test would admittedly be done entirely for formal/PR reasons, and there are other issues that need to be discussed, so I wouldn't be bothered by Darm getting quickbanned so we can move onto other issues.
They did, it's Darmanitan as a whole.At this point Garm+GR being OP is a given, and the vast, vast majority of respondents here have affirmed this. I don’t understand why the council keeps interjecting to ask that everyone focuses on topic when said topic was discussed to completion by page 2.
At this point the council just needs to decide whether to axe Gt or Garm as a whole, and they need to decide on a suspect or a quick ban. Both of these topics have also been discussed to death at this point, so there’s no point in further delay.
There's about 8 pages of this discussion and it's just people repeatedly arguing the importance of tiering philosophy and preserving Zen Mode. It was implied that any more would get the thread locked.not gonna write anything expansive because others have said about anything you could, but I'm mostly confused as to why we're talking about Galarian Darmanitan as a whole and not just Gorilla Tactics (I'm sure this has been brought up but I find it the more interesting talking point). in the past people have debated how banning an ability rather than a Pokemon is less fair because you unfairly treat other options that may be less broken (hell, even this generation we dealt with the whole Wobbuffet discussion when Shadow Tag was nuked). in this case, however, wouldn't we be avoiding that discussion? Galarian Darmanitan is the sole Pokemon with Gorilla Tactics, and it seems that this is what has people up in arms about it--Zen Mode seems to be considered fine by a vast majority of users. I don't really view this as a particularly complex ban either; isn't this the same as just banning any other ability? this personally is the route I think makes the most sense from a balancing perspective.
Oh, it's been discussed alright. In fact, we've been having a back and forth on this very topic for several pages now which ended in total gridlock and both sides regurgitating points. The council has chosen Darmanitan itself to be the one who will be judged, not Gorilla Tactics, and while I and others feel that's a shame there's nothing we can do anymore and it's not worth dredging it up.not gonna write anything expansive because others have said about anything you could, but I'm mostly confused as to why we're talking about Galarian Darmanitan as a whole and not just Gorilla Tactics (I'm sure this has been brought up but I find it the more interesting talking point). in the past people have debated how banning an ability rather than a Pokemon is less fair because you unfairly treat other options that may be less broken (hell, even this generation we dealt with the whole Wobbuffet discussion when Shadow Tag was nuked). in this case, however, wouldn't we be avoiding that discussion? Galarian Darmanitan is the sole Pokemon with Gorilla Tactics, and it seems that this is what has people up in arms about it--Zen Mode seems to be considered fine by a vast majority of users. I don't really view this as a particularly complex ban either; isn't this the same as just banning any other ability? this personally is the route I think makes the most sense from a balancing perspective.
There's about 8 pages of this discussion and it's just people repeatedly arguing the importance of tiering philosophy and preserving Zen Mode. It was implied that any more would get the thread locked.
ya I fail to see any tiering philosophy point here because we still allow the shit versions of Goth/Dug/Wobb in the gens they had the good abilities banned oh well ou lords have spoken igOh, it's been discussed alright. In fact, we've been having a back and forth on this very topic for several pages now which ended in total gridlock and both sides regurgitating points. The council has chosen Darmanitan itself to be the one who will be judged, not Gorilla Tactics, and while I and others feel that's a shame there's nothing we can do anymore and it's not worth dredging it up.
Oof sniped by Kioskate. Point stands