I will concur with the majority that it should be quickbanned so that we can allow the tier to settle a bit and move on to the next biggest vish to fry.
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On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]
- Thread starter bro fist
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Just want to point out that Gamefreak has shown in this gen itself that they're fine with making signature moves not signature anymore (Fire Lash!) so don't bank on that for argumentation.
Also, it's pretty clear that G-Darm is busted. If it's allowed in the upcoming SPL, it's going to be a centerpoint and be heavily prepped for and/or teams will be built to exploit it as much as possible.
Huge amounts of this thread have been arguing over ability stuff, but that still means basically everyone thinks G-Darm (with GT) is busted. That's not really heavily debated at all, with good reason.
Also, it's pretty clear that G-Darm is busted. If it's allowed in the upcoming SPL, it's going to be a centerpoint and be heavily prepped for and/or teams will be built to exploit it as much as possible.
Huge amounts of this thread have been arguing over ability stuff, but that still means basically everyone thinks G-Darm (with GT) is busted. That's not really heavily debated at all, with good reason.
I have no strong preference either way but I err on the side of a suspect test for PR reasons. Darm is fucking busted but if it ends up quickbanned, it would probably be the least fucking busted thing to ever be quickbanned. At least with a suspect, we can say we gave him his due process and let people air their anti-ban arguments in a more formal thread than this one. That being said, a suspect test would mostly be a formality because this thing doesn't have a snowman's chance in hell (fucking sue me) of avoiding the ban, and perhaps it would be better to just give him the axe now so we can move on to Dracovish other problems in the metagame.
Deleted User 229847
Banned deucer.
Are there anti ban arguments? Like, at all? Except the first post with the LO darmanitan shenanigans I have seen basically no one arguing we should not ban darm. What’s the point if 90%+ of the playerbase agrees? I don’t think people will get mad at the council since almost all of them agree with the ban to begin with.
I wouldn't use the people who have posted on this thread as an indication of the community as a whole, in which case 90% is likely a stretch. A suspect is always the "safer" route to take, just because it's a lot easier to "accept". Which is why they mentioned the PR aspect. I personally don't care one way or the other as I feel it should go regardless of the method taken.
But, clearly, not everyone thinks like I do.
1-is Gdarm ban worthy? Yes absolutely! And as a whole! This way it can be fully viable with all its possible sets and abilities in Uber. That would be better than dissecting the pokemon and creating unnecessary complex bans.
Just promote the Gorilla to ubers! It has no place in OU. The fact that ppl are debating what to ban ( and not whether it should stay or not says a lot).
2-suspect vs quickban: obviously and easily a quick ban! Like not even a person is arguing for it to stay anymore so why waste time?
TLDR: quickban the entirety of this Gorilla like yesterday. As I have said before, it is a super reward, zero skill mon.
Just promote the Gorilla to ubers! It has no place in OU. The fact that ppl are debating what to ban ( and not whether it should stay or not says a lot).
2-suspect vs quickban: obviously and easily a quick ban! Like not even a person is arguing for it to stay anymore so why waste time?
TLDR: quickban the entirety of this Gorilla like yesterday. As I have said before, it is a super reward, zero skill mon.
I think we should quick ban G Darm. Pretty much everyone has agreed that G Darm + GT is broken and since GT isn't going, G Darm has to go. If we proceed with the Suspect, we will waste time instead of going after Dracovish. Furthermore, we can predict that the Suspect will be close to the Shaymin S result a few years ago anyway.
There are always anti-ban arguments. There were arguments against banning Naganadel and Marshadow, however weak they may have been, but mostly the point is more that a suspect looks better in the eyes of people who aren't familiar with the tiering process. I know many don't care about outsider's opinions on Smogon, and maybe they're right not to, but I have to admit I don't like the fact that many people in the community seem to have no idea how we operate, or all the misconceptions that fly around about us as a result. As such, I think being able to say that Darmanitan was banned by a democratic suspect process where anyone who can prove they aren't shit at the game can cast a vote is an easier pill to swallow than it being banned at the sole discretion of the OU council, regardless of whether or not the Smogon community heavily supports it.
But that being said, a suspect test would admittedly be done entirely for formal/PR reasons, and there are other issues that need to be discussed, so I wouldn't be bothered by Darm getting quickbanned so we can move onto other issues.
Re: anti-ban.
I think almost everyone here agrees that Darm is overwhelming at the moment, but there’s definitely room to debate in which order we proceed to tackle the issue.
I’ve aluded to this in previous posts, but as a predominantly balance player I have to say that when I do have bad games against Darmanitan, it is regularly the result of Darm + Dugtrio.
We’ve been here before. Trapping has been busted for as long as team preview has existed, and whilst we entertained the possibility that Dugtrio might be ok if some of its major targets are cut (Heatran, Chansey etc), I think people are still finding ways to make it an issue. Particularly by abusing its ability to take out Toxapex and Excadrill.
Back in BW OU, we were hesitant to ban Dugtrio, and instead back-to-back banned Pokemon that were prime beneficiaries of trapping cores (Genesect, Tornadus-T, Drought+Chlorophyll were very commonly utilised with Dugtrio). We eventually clocked that trapping itself is uncompetitive, and that it alone provides absurd team support making some borderline Pokemon truly ridiculous to face. I wish we’d banned Dugtrio first, and then evaluated whether Genesect, Tornadus-T, and particularly sun offense were truly problematic (they probably were but with hindsight we objectively did this in the wrong order).
I’d rather we didn’t do the same thing here. Part of Darmanitan’s ridiculousness is its access to U-turn, effectively giving it zero safe switch-ins, and combined with the fact that all its checks bar Rotom are grounded, it is a prime candidate to take advantage of Dugtrio. Dugtrio can even do serious work against Jellicent with the right set choice. Dugtrio’s ability to invalidate Ttar + sand rush excadrill also puts a ton of pressure on sand offense to countersweep in the face of Darmanitan, in other words turning what should be a good match-up into a disdvantageous one.
If we ban Dugtrio and Darmanitan is still broken (which is still very very likely) then thats all fine, no harm done. But if we ban Darmanitan and whatever other offensive mons, and then a year later decide Arena Trap is still busted, we’ll look back and question what those Pokemon would have looked back in a trap-less metagame.
Tl;dr my “anti-ban” argument is that darm is ridiculous but maybe pushed over the edge by arena trap, which we will likely ban later anyway (it will inevitably be when Dugtrio stall becomes a thing lol). Darm is probably busted regardless but we should tackle things in the correct order just in case.
I think almost everyone here agrees that Darm is overwhelming at the moment, but there’s definitely room to debate in which order we proceed to tackle the issue.
I’ve aluded to this in previous posts, but as a predominantly balance player I have to say that when I do have bad games against Darmanitan, it is regularly the result of Darm + Dugtrio.
We’ve been here before. Trapping has been busted for as long as team preview has existed, and whilst we entertained the possibility that Dugtrio might be ok if some of its major targets are cut (Heatran, Chansey etc), I think people are still finding ways to make it an issue. Particularly by abusing its ability to take out Toxapex and Excadrill.
Back in BW OU, we were hesitant to ban Dugtrio, and instead back-to-back banned Pokemon that were prime beneficiaries of trapping cores (Genesect, Tornadus-T, Drought+Chlorophyll were very commonly utilised with Dugtrio). We eventually clocked that trapping itself is uncompetitive, and that it alone provides absurd team support making some borderline Pokemon truly ridiculous to face. I wish we’d banned Dugtrio first, and then evaluated whether Genesect, Tornadus-T, and particularly sun offense were truly problematic (they probably were but with hindsight we objectively did this in the wrong order).
I’d rather we didn’t do the same thing here. Part of Darmanitan’s ridiculousness is its access to U-turn, effectively giving it zero safe switch-ins, and combined with the fact that all its checks bar Rotom are grounded, it is a prime candidate to take advantage of Dugtrio. Dugtrio can even do serious work against Jellicent with the right set choice. Dugtrio’s ability to invalidate Ttar + sand rush excadrill also puts a ton of pressure on sand offense to countersweep in the face of Darmanitan, in other words turning what should be a good match-up into a disdvantageous one.
If we ban Dugtrio and Darmanitan is still broken (which is still very very likely) then thats all fine, no harm done. But if we ban Darmanitan and whatever other offensive mons, and then a year later decide Arena Trap is still busted, we’ll look back and question what those Pokemon would have looked back in a trap-less metagame.
Tl;dr my “anti-ban” argument is that darm is ridiculous but maybe pushed over the edge by arena trap, which we will likely ban later anyway (it will inevitably be when Dugtrio stall becomes a thing lol). Darm is probably busted regardless but we should tackle things in the correct order just in case.
I'm interested in knowing on a wider scale how top level tournament players deal with Garm. I'm not anti ban, Garm is at least suspect worthy for sure. But from my experience in mid level play, I haven't been having too many issues personally, and I'd like to see how much usage and how much of an effect it has throughout a match with players far better than me.
In mid level play, almost all Garms are scarfed and are quite prediction reliant on beating resist and super fat Mons. The closest to an obscure shit mon I've used to check it is Jellicent, who isn't even that bad. Even u turn is punished via hazards, which a well built team shouldn't have much trouble keeping up, though Corvi and Mandi are really good so maybe that's just mid tier not knowing how to use them.
The problem is not how good scarf is alone, but how band invalidates most of scarfs defensive counter play, and how scarf invalidates most of bands offensive counter play. Not knowing which is which until you've likely lost a mon or your opp straight up outplays you and you've suddenly got literally no answer. Not being able to counter it or even check it with any sort of reasonable consistency makes it terrifying to play against. Definitely some kind of busted.
I want to know how the top players deal with the prediction reliant counter play and not knowing the item. If they can do it consistently, then I'd argue giving some more time for the rest of us to catch up. But if even they struggle, us mere mortals don't have a chance.
TL:Dr Garm stronk want to know if good players can beat it if not then yeet but maybe yeet anyway
In mid level play, almost all Garms are scarfed and are quite prediction reliant on beating resist and super fat Mons. The closest to an obscure shit mon I've used to check it is Jellicent, who isn't even that bad. Even u turn is punished via hazards, which a well built team shouldn't have much trouble keeping up, though Corvi and Mandi are really good so maybe that's just mid tier not knowing how to use them.
The problem is not how good scarf is alone, but how band invalidates most of scarfs defensive counter play, and how scarf invalidates most of bands offensive counter play. Not knowing which is which until you've likely lost a mon or your opp straight up outplays you and you've suddenly got literally no answer. Not being able to counter it or even check it with any sort of reasonable consistency makes it terrifying to play against. Definitely some kind of busted.
I want to know how the top players deal with the prediction reliant counter play and not knowing the item. If they can do it consistently, then I'd argue giving some more time for the rest of us to catch up. But if even they struggle, us mere mortals don't have a chance.
TL:Dr Garm stronk want to know if good players can beat it if not then yeet but maybe yeet anyway
Deleted User 229847
Banned deucer.
Darm is in the same fashion hindered by dugtrio, who can trap it and revengekill with minimal chip damage such as rocks. I’d say that banning dugtrio actually reduces the amount of counterplay you have against darm, but as I’ve previously stated they can both get banned for all I care.
I agree that Arena trap should be quickbanned. Restricting your opponent from switching out is uncompetetive.
I also think Darmatian should be banned. Its combination of Stats, movepool and abilities is too much for Ou. I cant remember ever having to prepare for a scarfer that much in teambuilding. I support a quickban.
I also think Darmatian should be banned. Its combination of Stats, movepool and abilities is too much for Ou. I cant remember ever having to prepare for a scarfer that much in teambuilding. I support a quickban.
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i dont think there's much sense in trying to appease the outsiders who would be upset by a gdarm quickban since a good deal of them would probably be upset if we banned it thru a suspect test too since they tend to disagree with the notion of banning pokemon in its entirety. suspect tests make sense when there is a genuine discussion to be had or when a decision can be truly seen as truly controversial (such as the dmax ban) but i dont think doing a suspect test for PR reasons is necessary where it concerns a single pokemon that is considered broken by an overwhelming majority of the community
i dont want to drag on to much with this topic but the fact that 5 or 6 pages were spent on debating whether to ban darmanitan-galar or gorilla tactics (with literally only 1 no ban poists in the entire topic) should speak for itself. at this point, were better off by quickbanning darmanitan instead of losing time and going through a suspect process.
At this point Garm+GR being OP is a given, and the vast, vast majority of respondents here have affirmed this. I don’t understand why the council keeps interjecting to ask that everyone focuses on topic when said topic was discussed to completion by page 2.
At this point the council just needs to decide whether to axe Gt or Garm as a whole, and they need to decide on a suspect or a quick ban. Both of these topics have also been discussed to death at this point, so there’s no point in further delay.
At this point the council just needs to decide whether to axe Gt or Garm as a whole, and they need to decide on a suspect or a quick ban. Both of these topics have also been discussed to death at this point, so there’s no point in further delay.
They did, it's Darmanitan as a whole.
Don't attempt to revive that dogshit.
Take it or leave it, they made it clear it will be Darmanitan and not Gorilla Tactics.
And the point here is to gauge whether it should be a suspect or a quickban because the common consensus is that it should go, one way or the other.
If banning GT is out of the question, then yes, Garm is ban worthy. as it stands, nearly everyone here agrees that Garm is too much, all of the debate was just around how to fix it.
I'd also say quick ban, It's clear that he has to much going for him, and if you have that tournament coming up, then it would be better to get it out of the way early.
I'd also say quick ban, It's clear that he has to much going for him, and if you have that tournament coming up, then it would be better to get it out of the way early.
If we're well and truly done with GDarm, sweet. Lets move on.
Arena Trap needs to go now. Why did it get unbanned? It's clearly not good for the game, as it's basically Shadow Tag, but instead of not working on Ghosts, it doesn't work on Flying types/Levitate mons... which doesn't make it any better. Is the only thing keeping it unbanned the fact that it's on Dugtrio, who was weak to Dynamaxing? Because Dynamaxing getting blowed up was a net gain for it, as things it trapped can now no longer upscale and tank/kill it. Is it because without it Dugtrio is bad? Dugtrio has 120 Spe and 100 Atk and is one of two mons in the tier with STAB Equake (Excadrill is wholly superior in that regard thanks to higher HP and Atk but is at 88 Spe). It'll manage somewhere somehow.
Also someone earlier brought up min def Cursola + Dugtrio for a Perish Trap combo and even if that's niche as hell that's still a problem I don't want to deal with going forward.
Arena Trap needs to go now. Why did it get unbanned? It's clearly not good for the game, as it's basically Shadow Tag, but instead of not working on Ghosts, it doesn't work on Flying types/Levitate mons... which doesn't make it any better. Is the only thing keeping it unbanned the fact that it's on Dugtrio, who was weak to Dynamaxing? Because Dynamaxing getting blowed up was a net gain for it, as things it trapped can now no longer upscale and tank/kill it. Is it because without it Dugtrio is bad? Dugtrio has 120 Spe and 100 Atk and is one of two mons in the tier with STAB Equake (Excadrill is wholly superior in that regard thanks to higher HP and Atk but is at 88 Spe). It'll manage somewhere somehow.
Also someone earlier brought up min def Cursola + Dugtrio for a Perish Trap combo and even if that's niche as hell that's still a problem I don't want to deal with going forward.
Please keep the focus on this thread solely on Galarian Darmanitan. Mentioning combinations such as Galarian Darmanitan and Arena Trap being problematic is fine, but the thread's primary focus first and foremost be on whether suspecting or Quick banning Galarian Darmanitan should be on the table. Arena Trap being suspected at this current point of time is irrelevant.
not gonna write anything expansive because others have said about anything you could, but I'm mostly confused as to why we're talking about Galarian Darmanitan as a whole and not just Gorilla Tactics (I'm sure this has been brought up but I find it the more interesting talking point). in the past people have debated how banning an ability rather than a Pokemon is less fair because you unfairly treat other options that may be less broken (hell, even this generation we dealt with the whole Wobbuffet discussion when Shadow Tag was nuked). in this case, however, wouldn't we be avoiding that discussion? Galarian Darmanitan is the sole Pokemon with Gorilla Tactics, and it seems that this is what has people up in arms about it--Zen Mode seems to be considered fine by a vast majority of users. I don't really view this as a particularly complex ban either; isn't this the same as just banning any other ability? this personally is the route I think makes the most sense from a balancing perspective.
There's about 8 pages of this discussion and it's just people repeatedly arguing the importance of tiering philosophy and preserving Zen Mode. It was implied that any more would get the thread locked.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Oh, it's been discussed alright. In fact, we've been having a back and forth on this very topic for several pages now which ended in total gridlock and both sides regurgitating points. The council has chosen Darmanitan itself to be the one who will be judged, not Gorilla Tactics, and while I and others feel that's a shame there's nothing we can do anymore and it's not worth dredging it up.
Oof sniped by Kioskate. Point stands
ya I fail to see any tiering philosophy point here because we still allow the shit versions of Goth/Dug/Wobb in the gens they had the good abilities banned
oh well ou lords have spoken ig
Ema Skye
Work!
Given that council has decided what they want to ban (Darm vs GT), and there being no debate that the combo of Darm+GT is not broken, I don't see any reason why this discussion needs to continue.
Suspect vs QuickBan debate won't change anything given how one-sided the debate is at the core (everyone agrees that Darm+GT is broken). It's simply a matter of how long they want to delay the inevitable.
Suspect vs QuickBan debate won't change anything given how one-sided the debate is at the core (everyone agrees that Darm+GT is broken). It's simply a matter of how long they want to delay the inevitable.
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