Well probably should continue "stirring the pot".
I personally do not agree with factoring in X-Items into the tier list because the average joe would not even use or care about using X-Items and the possible skewing factor of them similar to Exp. Share (though the average joe would use Exp. Share but let's not go there) but I am not attached to the issue.
I want to use this quote not to smash it into your face, but I want to discuss something that is relative to the efficiency discussion and the "average joe".
First off, I want people to realistically think what they mean by the average player / joe. The reason I state this is because I don't want the tier list to fall into another slippery slope that seems to be the current trend of things. I want to point out to a rather... experimental tier list created years ago that IOS was kind enough to point out to me:
http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19819
I want everyone to ignore the majority of the strawman I put to bblade (at the time we were at clash of heads but we've gotten along since) and point to a quote by dondon:
Is warp skipping allowed? Or is the player not proficient enough to do that?
This actually is critical to understand. In FE11 H5 the game was easily trivialized by the methods of warpskipping. The average joe might decide "let's not warpskip because that seems cheap" and proceed with the game as normal. Now this may seem harmless in theory, but the problem is that it takes characters like Zagaro (Sedgar) / Wolf and completely skewers their usefulness in an efficiency runthrough. This also applies to Wendell, Merric, and Boah. In H5 mode Sedgar and Wolf start rather awful; however, due to their base growths they can become rather stellar units in about 5-10 levels. They surpass the majority of Marth's army in offense and durability barring minor circumstances (weapon levels) which can be fixed if done properly. If the player does a Warpskip strategy Zagaro and Wolf become almost useless - with Wolf almost surpassing Zagaro just due to having slightly better base stats (Speed in particular). Though in combat Merric will eventually surpass Wendell (even though OHKOing Dracoknights with Excalibur = OHKOing Dracoknights with Excalibur) Wendell (and Boah) are able to use a Warp Staff to bypass the majority of the game - thus making them easily Top / High Tier units (Boah is maybe a little lower at worst).
Now how does this apply to Pokemon? It's very simple - the average joe might not use X Items; however, that does not entail that average joe is being efficient because of it. Now if the ground rule was placed that X Items aren't allowed (and barring RBY I think it would be a rather stupid rule)* then it is possible that average joe is actually being efficient. On the contrary, though, we also noted that average joe, given the spectrum of the entire world for comparison, is likely using EXP Share and DexNav and isn't even attempting to play by any efficient means.
In a tier list we want to assume that our player is competent. He / she is not some average joe we found on the street and told to play Pokemon. If we wanted to assume the average joe we should just allow DexNav and Exp Share regardless of how "skewered" it makes the competition.
The tl;dr version - don't assume average joe in a tier list. Ever.
I'm sorry but I assume you didn't watch the entirety of the run in question. Nor did I watch the whole 4-hour long thing of course, but I found all the places I found important to investigate.
Times when the player uses X-Attack (just one, but Swellow has no natural means of boosting attack outside of Guts otherwise):
Flannery - X attack to KO Torkoal
Norman - X attack to KO Slakings
Winona - X attack to KO Altaria, Pelipper, and hit Skarmory harder
Wallace - X attack to KO Milotic, Whiscash, possibly more
X Attack on Swellow is not used against Roxanne (player uses Mudkip), Brawley (level advantage + SE STAB Wing Attack), Wattson (player uses Marshtomp) and Tate & Liza (player uses Latias with multiple X Special bots).
In other words, Swellow is used only in 5 gym battles out of 8, out of which it's overlevelled for one gym and an X Attack is required for the other four. And then Swellow is dropped for Kyogre.
Facade+Guts is powerful, no doubt about it. But there is simply no way this performance will be replicated in an efficiency run the kind of which we are discussing in the present thread.
Since we mentioned that Tailow was only overleveled for one fight in particular I believe it is fairly safe to assume that the performance with Tailow / Swellow
can be replicated if done properly. I am even willing to use Tailow in my next runthrough because I know a 1,000 To Get Poisoned<tm> other than Grimer (you know Tentacool with Old Rod exists with Poison Sting right?) Realistically it probably won't always be poisoned; however, it could remain poisoned in important fights (Brawly for example should be crushed by Poisoned Tailow without breaking a sweat).
Ever since we started the in-game tiering process as a serious community effort under Mekkah's supervision with RBY X items have not been taken into account, and the reasons weren't questioned much until the speedrunning duo - you and Colonel M I mean - intruded with an alternative vision of why certain Pokemon should be tiered differently.
Tier lists do not stay stagnant to a point where they cannot be improved upon. Tier lists can evolve as what has been done throughout the years through Fire Emblem's efficiency tier lists. Remember when everyone ragged on FE6 and FE7 Marcus because they didn't cap stats or that they jeopardized the Experience category for the "rankings" that were largely ignored after, say, 2008? Or when units like Sedgar and Wolf were praised as Gods Among Men<tm> in FE11 - only to be dethroned by actual bad asses like Caeda (Shiida)? It is precisely what I mean. We didn't ban forges, which could be compared to X Items, when we created those tier lists either (like X Items Forges have an opportunity cost and can be used by everyone; however, there are superior methods for forging and X Items).
Though I was not completely around when Mekkah created the soft-ban for X Items I believe I can somewhat relate to a reason being on how buggy RBY was with mechanics - even with X Items. One proper example is that a Pokemon that is leveled above the opposing Pokemon and given an X Accuracy will proceed to always OHKO with Fissure / Horn Drill - this made Pokemon like Nidoking even more of a god before its stellar learning movepool, good typing, and stats. Another example is Dire Hit which divided the critical hit rate by 4 (thus making it useless). The ban on X Items is likely different with Mekkah and others; however, even people like Mekkah have gone with changes of tier philosophy over the years and has adapted and renewed various subjects in question.
Held items don't homogenise Pokemon at all considering they differ greatly in availability (you often get Miracle Seed before all others, some are never easily available in some of the games) and actual application. X items achieve just that, though we can still agree that Swampert and Luvdisc require a considerably different number of said items to ensure a sweep. However, for efficiency purposes, not every battle is preferred to be a sweep; far from it.
Actually in most cases you would prefer a battle to be a sweep - again, time is a part of efficiency. If you're able to sweep without the need of setting on Shift during important fights you create a time save at the end of the day. Let's not jeopardize the definition of efficiency simply for the sake of something that you don't necessarily agree with.
It is at no risk because you're using an X Attack item to ensure a sweep with a 140 BP STAB move with additional 50% attack from Guts; otherwise, it does not last. And it is no longer such a great option against Brawley if it's not soloing the game after being caught at a whopping level of 18, because the neutral attacks it's taking in return are very difficult to survive. Zubat is a better option for Brawley because of its resistances, but most players will probably use their second tier starter or a well-trained Ralts/Marill.
Hint - no one in their right goddamned mind should ever use their second tier starter against Brawly. It's a recipe for disaster - some Pokemon like Combusken target on Defense while some like Treecko will never be able to overpower both Makuhita and Machop at the same time with STAB Mega Drain (maybe -one- tops). I also find it very funny how you twisted your own words that you stated long ago about how "Speed puts full control of the battle" to twist against Tailow because it could take "neutral attacks that are very difficult to survive". What exactly is so different here when Pokemon like Treecko can take a rather hefty neutral attack and have itself KOed - this is especially true if we consider the "average joe" argument of a tier list player.
But funny enough - if a Tailow is always OHKOing its opposition and is outspeeding it - then it isn't taking neutral hits from anything. So... what's the point of your statement otherwise?
(Oh and spoiler alert - you can't catch Marill before Brawly. It's impossible).
You have to really build your entire playstyle around keeping Swellow poisoned, which is the sole reason why it's doing so well against generic mooks (the other being its high speed, a pro we should by no means ignore since we're likely going to measure Taillow outside of its speedrun prominence sometime later on).
Though it requires minor tweaks to a playstyle it is still a valid playstyle that the player can adapt to easily. Again - poisoning a Tailow is very easy with the Old Rod. Yes it may take a little time; however, if we're dawdling time to obtain things like various TMs and Pokemon like Mawile then I don't really think that it's that much more drastic.
(Nevermind if Tailow wasn't sweeping - it would only have to be Poisoned under various circumstances like important fights to sweep - Archie / Maxie as one example which can be done before the fight).
They are only common against Team Aqua grunts, because the Magma ones (including Maxie himself) use Koffing / Weezing instead.
Yet hilariously enough, both Koffing and Weezing are Poison-types that learn Poison Gas and Sludge - both moves which... have a chance to Poison?
He merely used Grimer as the example as the player in question who used Swellow used it against Grimers - which is on AS. The same logic
still applies in OR. Koffing and Weezing will always have a move with a chance to Poison (Poison Gas, Smog, Sludge, Sludge Bomb). The only problem really is that Koffing and Weeezing may have Self-Destruct or Explosion in their repertoire - but I highly doubt they use it immediately on turn 1.
I think you are being manipulative and provocative with that wording - "slower, less efficient playstyle" is exactly what we understand by efficiency here, as opposed to speedrunning which you (and Colonel M to a certain extent, but he's arguing that Golem should be in the second tier so I doubt he'll go with you until the very end logically) propose as the new basis for efficiency instead of what we have been comfortably been doing here all the time for what seems like many years now.
Golem may be a slower Pokemon; however, it is still doing its job - it is sweeping important fights and only few Pokemon can realistically match up to its time taken. Most have to either have rather steep opportunity costs (buying PuP / Low Sweep TMs) or replicate with X Items. Allow me to demonstrate - the only Pokemon that came close to KOing Flannery in 4 turns was Azumarill - and that is ignoring the possibility of Curse / Sunny Day (mine was Adamant so it did KO through Curse). Nevermind if we want to get technical Bulldoze Golem 4 turns Flannery provided that Torkoal does not use Curse.
Ignoring that statement, the end result is an efficient playthrough. "Speed running" often requires manipulation of things outside of the game (be it constant soft resets or forcing stats upon level up among other forced mechanics). Being comfortable with your definition of "efficiency", if you can even call it that at this point, is irrelevant to the end goal of actually being efficient. If something is naturally more efficient without the use of things like glitches and such then obviously
it must be considered.
I'm not Celever running the topic, or IAR/Colonel M/DHR who appear to be authoritative figures when decisions are to be made, but it seems these arguments have been generally met with reluctance so I'll go over these myself.
1) X-items have not been allowed, which has mostly been an unstated rule all agreed upon (most users debating have been aware of their existence and application, no doubt). Their usage can be compared to temporary Exp Share in erasing the peculiarities of the Pokemon used.
X-items have never been discussed mainly because, outside of the RBY saga, have never really been discussed in full detail. Though I participated in tier lists even I've found different methods of the evolution of efficiency in Pokemon throughout the years. EXP Share is a much different case than X-Items - we'll discuss this later.
2) By "efficient", you mean "used to achieve the highest score in a speedrun". We are not discussing speedrunning however, even if specific aspects of speedrunning can be applicable to efficiency tiering, but many are not.
That is absolute nonsense. Nevermind in a speedrun most people aren't even attempting to achieve a high score. The exception is maybe time - but that is exactly what an efficient player is trying to do. An efficient player only has few differences here and there from speedrunners.
When Mekkah and atsync were running the RBY tier lists, testing was done with a team of six Pokemon. While this makes the difficulty of otherwise laughably easy games quite real, Pokemon like Farfetch'd still found themselves high up on the list because the requirements to be a good Pokemon were low enough in those games.
This is precisely what I mean by "tier lists and efficiency have evolved over time." Most adaptations of teams never have a full team of 6 - most usually consist of 3-4 usable Pokemon and 1-2 HM slaves. Besides, the difficulty of RBY was not abusing many of its hordes of glitches barring what could not be controlled (Razor Leaf always scoring a critical hit for example). Farfetch'd was also one of these cases because Swords Dance + Slash always critting made it a viable Pokemon - nevermind HM slaving it.
Let me take a second and replace "X Items" with "Exp Share" in that statement.
Exp Share and X Items are remarkably similar in that both can be used to turn a Pokemon with a detrimental typing, weak stats and poor movesets into an unkillable OHKO machine. "Neutral coverage" becomes the keyword to decide a Pokemon's worth instead of multiple other factors, and this way Wigglytuff becomes better than Venusaur, Furfrou becomes better Roserade, and Stoutland is suddenly better than Magnezone.
...This is it? This is how you're going to replace "X Items" with "Exp Share"? With these weak examples?
Alright. I'll bite.
Let's take a moment and evaluate your statement. Let's see... let's use Furfrou with Roserade because both are available in a game with EXP Share and X-Items (the other have major disparities in availability). Coincidentally Furfrou and Roselia come roughly at the same time as well. For now we'll ignore normal battles and we'll focus on important fights.
- Furfrou would have to spam X Attacks and Rock Smash to even attempt to get through the second gym. Overleveling Roselia will probably be the only thing really necessary to do in order to crush Grant - or simply having the EXP Share on helps that.
- Roselia would naturally have the advantage against Korrina barring Hawlucha - a match that Furfrou would still likely lose. If the player wanted to they could spam X Defenses on Roselia and deter the power from Hawlucha's Flying Press (it does neutral damage). Since Furfrou is simply using Fake Out turn 1 it's pretty safe to do. You could also spam X Specials if you were afraid of missing KOes with Mega / Giga Drain.
- Roselia would still have the advantage here against Ramos barring the Jumpluff who probably isn't going to hurt an overleveled Roselia too much. Probably don't even need much for this one - Toxic + Venoshock kind of bones Gogoat and Weepingbell isn't doing shit.
- Celmont is probably the first "notable" victory against Roselia only because it can handle Magneton and maybe Emolga better; however, Eviolite Roselia probably could leg up that match-up if its overleveled. Roserade probably could take a hit if overleveled too.
- Roserade with Grass Knot should 2HKO Mawile and the other two are taken care of through an X Attack Poison Jab and holding a Poison Barb (this is assuming roughly Level 43). Furfrou always 2HKOes Mawile even with an X Attack (unless it is grossly higher leveled at this point). Oh and Mawile has Iron Defense. Lol.
- Sigilyph here actually has Reflect and Light Screen. Though Furfrou can eventually get through once Reflect is down with STAB Return / Crunch it's still probably going to take X Attacks to do so. Though Roserade may want to opt out against Sigilyph STAB Petal Dance should murder both Slowking and Meowstic.
- Sludge Bomb murders Abomasnow and Petal Dance should knock out Avalugg as well if Roserade had some training and a Miracle Seed (needs to be about Level 60). Furfrou at +6 will fail to OHKO Avalugg while Furfrou would risk being froze in the process (to answer the question to reliably 2HKO with Silk Scarf you need +3 X Attacks).
And the E4:
- Malva requires Furfrou to set up a couple X Attacks to really KO through everything (I believe Torkoal could withstand a +1 Bulldoze). Level 65 Roserade with Rain Dance + Weather Ball should OHKO everything in here without much trouble (-maybe- Talonflame at worst).
- Aegislash-Shield is 2HKOed by Sunny Day Weather Ball while Klefki / Scizor are OHKOed. Probopass takes a huge dent from Grass Knot / Giga Drain at the least. Furfrou can only Bulldoze 3 Pokemon and has nothing SE against Scizor.
- Water in favor of Roserade. No contest.
- Dragon E4 member has some grip against Roserade so I will just conclude a win for Furfrou here.
- Diantha neither can waste time to X up. Hawlucha is quite the threat with STAB Flying Press and Roserade doesnt have much better of a time. Roserade has a leg up against most of Diantha's Pokemon.
Despite Furfrou's neutral coverage it barely makes an impact in the game without spamming X Items to death. Meanwhile Roselia (Roserade) makes enough of an impact with only small detours at worst and Heart Scale / TM use. So with Furfrou under the bus we can look at Gen 1 Bulbasaur / Wigglytuff.
Bulbasaur already starts off with an impressive lead against Jigglypuff with an advantage against Brock. When Jigglypuff arrives it brags Sing and Growl while needing levels (off the top of my head to 9) to get STAB Pound. Meanwhile Bulbasaur is rocking STAB Vine Whip and Leech Seed. Against Misty Bulbasaur has a clear cut win here as Ivysaur should have 0 issues. Bulbasaur is also superior to Jigglypuff against Surge because of its typing advantage.
Erika is where Wigglytuff could in theory climb ahead but it has steep opportunity costs. Psychic is a very valuable TM in this game as it goes well with Abra line, Drowzee line, Mr Mime, Clefable, Gastly line, and Staryu line. Ignoring the Moon Stone's opportunity cost Wigglytuff will have to fight very hard to get Psychic. In fact the majority of Jigglypuff's movepool is very reliant on TMs and HMs - which I may remind you are limited in supply in this game. Though Bulbasaur would love TMs like Body Slam it can live without them. Bulbasaur event reaches a point of mediocrity after Lt Surge up until it learns Razor Leaf - but this is still a minor issue because many Gym Leaders Bulbasaur has to face next arent in his favor until Giovanni - where Bulbasaur will pull back in the lead and will be a trump card against Lorelei, Bruno, and chunks of Lance / Blue. Now this may seem like an advantage for Wigglytuff but, again, Wigglytuff has to fight very hard for its use (it is an inferior Clefable with 50 SpA vs Clefable's 85) and needs TMs to compete with the big boys.
I mean really you chose Furfrou and Jigglypuff? Come on man those were horrid examples. I question if you are even trying at this point.
The only difference is that X items have to be used in battles, whereas Exp Share only needs to be turned off when you're soloing the game in your speedrun anyway - no logical reason to do it because it is, as you say, "contributing to efficiency" in a very crucial way. But since the tier list is made with, as one rude, snarky poster put, 'arbitrary restrictions', both X Items and Exp Share are things that make discussion pointless and uninteresting. I mean, banning Kangaskhan and 6 or so others in competitive is also an 'arbitrary decision' but done quite deliberately to preserve the fun in a certain activity; here it's the fun in playing the game with "Pokemon as they are" (naturally).
Though I agree somewhat with Exp Share (for reasons much different than you outlined but closer to IARs) X Items still bring new strategies and discussions to strategically beating important fights at a much safer and efficient pace. I outlined how X Items can help you in crucial fights while still retaining to a strategy that is efficient. I do not understand the 'arbitrary restriction' that is needed for X Items. It promotes positive discussion and opens up new opportunities and possibilities to beat the game in an efficient pace. You make it sound like we set up 20 X items during each fight - that is certainly not the case. Though Pokemon like Swellow may lack set up attacks it is wrong to deny the possibility that Swellow can do with X Attack against certain Pokemon. It's like sandbagging a Pokemon from using TMs - notice I never brought up the opportunity costs of buying those TMs against Geodude's case (and trust me - it can be justified) when I could give Grovyle a Cheri Berry and probably 2HKO Magneton with a +1 Low Sweep once PuP is used on Magnemite. I figured I would keep that strategy a secret since people seemed hellbent on using items it seems.
Azumarill is another Pokemon unto whom different unpleasant things can be done because it's a slowmon (albeit a fabulous one). It should do just fine against said enemy even without X item use (poison-type attacks are quite bad though), but I wouldn't count that Swagger is always used on you whenever you want and prepare a Persim Berry just in case (you could use one from your bag next turn and leave your attack-boosting item on instead since that one is active during all relevant turns).
That is a horrible idea. Remember the strawman on being confused and hitting yourself five times in a row? Even if you cure said confusion by using the item youre still too slow and could be Swaggered that same turn again. Then the exact same scenario you cried about could happen again. Stop trying to beat around the bush and listen, please.
90% accuracy becomes a big problem when you attempt to set up with Rollout (one of the multitude of gimmicks you've been advertising because one really has to transcend logic to place Golem in the second tier); it's not so bad per se because the attack missing can be worked around, and is just one of the many things that can go wrong in-game without a fatal consequence to the player (i.e. you losing to another player in a competitive match). Powerful moves are often inaccurate; their power still makes them worth using if it's not something like Focus Blast.
So le me get this straight.
Setting up Rollout, a move that can be fixed with an X Accuracy if youre so qq about the use of said Rollout, is somehow less reliable than hitting with a 70% accuracy move? Can we think logically for a second when 4 turns of Rollout, as you mentuoned before, has 2 less accuracy than your -one- use of Focus Blast. Nevermind that you could easily just Bulldoze through everything Golem faces in Flannery's gym for the same results and same accuracy. Again - the key difference is missing that KO on Torkoal. But as we also mentioned with Azumarill - you could easily miss the 2HKO on Torkoal too (and I didnt even include accuracy like you did before!)
If you think Rollout is the only bag of tricks I had with Golem - sorry, but youre wrong. Like mentioned with Flannery you can Bulldoze through everything. Numel and Slugma are OHKOed while Torkoal is 2HKOed assuming no Curse. With Norman you can set up Power-up Punch to your heart's content since Slaking isn't doing shit to Golem and proceed to clean. With Winona you can Stealth Rock, KO with Rock Tomb, then come back in to nail the deal against Skarmory with Smack Down + Bulldoze or have a special Electric / Fire-type finish the job (Golem's Stealth Rock contributes to bypassing Sturdy). Etc, etc. Rollout is by no means necessary; however, people like Stellar even used it back in HGSS with his Graveler (or Golem) to success. Then as I mentioned before Golem can help against Team Magma and Aqua with its movepool - Koffing and Weezing still fall prey to Smack Down and Ground moves. And then there's stupid fucks like Muk that can actually tank a Gardevoir Psychic and OHKO it back with STAB Gunk Shot. Anyway, moving on.
And indeed, please do test your Golem properly if you're too lazy to theorycraft to see why this thing is as mediocre as it is (and has been since about the dawn of the series; in-game wise that is). I don't know how you can seriously argue it's a good switch-in against anything during the champion battle unless, as I previously suspected, you noticed me reacting negatively to Golem's placement so high up and are just making fun of me with this discussion.
Actually a good 80% of it is mockery as far as Golem in A (Electrike over Golem? Worth a good laugh) and mainly because it is easy to argue that Kyogre / Groudon cruise control makes endgame negligible. Golem is about the most solid of Bs you got. Thats about what I would also rank Electrike after more thought. Again, as a constant reminder - you can avoid the majority of Water-types because many of them are Fisherman. Those with Steel moves is usually Skarmory and Aggron - both are more prone to Golem than vice versa. The most common of Ground-types are Numels and Camerupts - both prone to STAB Ground. Golem is a B. It is a good Pokemon. It may fall off somewhat lategame but it can contribute lategame.
And they are also superior to most other tactics, like using Growth, Power-up Punch, many others, and not taking up a moveslot when there are quite a few moves most decent mons would enjoy running (I estimate 6-8 moves on a set would be just enough for most). They are a setup option for any mon lacking a setup option, too, such as the Swellow recently brought up and many others (Swampert to an extent, though he does have PuP and Rain Dance).
Moves like PuP still have an advantage over X-Items. X-Items cannot break Sturdy. X-Items still take more time to use than PuP. Should be common knowledge by now.
And that scary ultimatum in bold should probably be developed into a full-fledged idea to convince the participants of this enterprise that we should do a 180 and start tiering according to speedrunning criteria and not the efficiency criteria we have grown so accustomed to and which have proved to be so fruitful for all the 12+ games we've ranked so far. I haven't seen around in most discussions, but if you're one of the authoritative persons to decide what should happen on the tier list, I think it couldn't hurt if you were a little more respectful of the traditions of tiering that we have agreed on and stuck to for all this time and that, should you find them unsatisfactory, you convince people you're right instead of saying 'well, I want things my way'.
I'm quite serious by the way; the proposed change in tiering criteria and the kind of playstyle that it demands is nothing but drastic. It undermines the way we have previously tested, played the games and tiered everything, and it requires a sharp re-direction from where we are looking right now.
I dont understand how something done for over 12 years but still falls short on he definition of efficiency by a long mile suddenly makes it the right and only choice. If we stuck to the logic presented by yourself we wouldnt have moved to computers because we've used typewriters for years. Remember when Pokemon was purely singles? Didnt stop Gamefreak from a sweeping change either.
Discussion like this is critical because it is the difference of relevant efficiency information being applied and thrown out of the window for the shallow argument's sake of "what we have always been doing." Speedrunning is not the ultimatum goal; however, a middle ground between this "efficiency" and "speedrunning" needs to be analyzed seriously. IOS and myself gave strategies that should soundly work in any efficiency run and help the player progress faster. There is no 180. There is barely a 45° angle.
Ignoring the categorical statement at the end, the Mega Glalie in question should still do a very respectable job against Drake due to high offensive stats (speed also) and a type advantage against everyone, Kingdra included, and yes, this is definitely something that can be discussed in an efficiency setting.
Should, but easily improved upon. Mega Glalie can fall slower to Flygons, Mence. That leaves vulnerability to taking more damage, critical hits, everything that you loathed about slow Pokemon and faster Pokemon have.
feel you are twisting the way things are yet again. The performance of Lati@s in the E4 is highly solid, from penetrating targets with diverse coverage moves off absurd base special attack in Mega form, to employing hit-and-run strats against some of the toughest opponents around with Draco Meteor. There is never a time when Mega Lati@s is not used to great effect in the Elite Four. The surface knowledge that it's weak to dark, ghost, ice and dragon (coincidentally, all types of the E4 members) doesn't change the fact that it still performs very well in all these fights.
Wut? I tried using Mega Lati@s in the E4 and it blew chunks. All it could do is OHKO a Pokemon with Draco Meteor... at the cost of a Mega. Thats horrid.