I wasn't arguing about it being centralizing, I was just correcting the notion that you can't prepare for it. Like I said I have no opinion about a Gothitelle/Shadow Tag test.
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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If ive said it once i've said it a thousand times, but I really like Contrary Serperior in this meta's OU.
If played correctly (and not staying in on an obvious scarfer just cause you're +6 already lol) this thing is a massive threat that puts an immense amount of pressure on the opponent to stop before it gets a clean sweep. Offensively, Serperior has Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse as staples, either HP Ground or Fire depending on what your team deals with, and Giga Drain. And that's about it :[. However, Serperior's downright awesome support/utility movepool and unique learnset makes better than you may think given it's dissapointing coverage. With a utitlity belt including Dual Screens, Synthesis, Knock Off (Because lets be honest, mixed serperior is not worth the investment, so Knock Off is really a utility pick over offense), Leech Seed + Sub, and Glare, it has many options to run leaving foes downright confused over what it may do when it comes from, aside from obvious Leaf Storm spam. Its speed tier is nothing short of awesome in a day and age where the Latis + Thunderus run rampant, just outspeeding them both by a hair when fully invested (Kinda reminds me of DPt Garchomp's speed lolol). Overall, It's definitely one of my new favorite mons, and a threat every OU team should have a proper answer to. It's not every day you see a PU mon go to OU in a month, y'know? :]
If played correctly (and not staying in on an obvious scarfer just cause you're +6 already lol) this thing is a massive threat that puts an immense amount of pressure on the opponent to stop before it gets a clean sweep. Offensively, Serperior has Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse as staples, either HP Ground or Fire depending on what your team deals with, and Giga Drain. And that's about it :[. However, Serperior's downright awesome support/utility movepool and unique learnset makes better than you may think given it's dissapointing coverage. With a utitlity belt including Dual Screens, Synthesis, Knock Off (Because lets be honest, mixed serperior is not worth the investment, so Knock Off is really a utility pick over offense), Leech Seed + Sub, and Glare, it has many options to run leaving foes downright confused over what it may do when it comes from, aside from obvious Leaf Storm spam. Its speed tier is nothing short of awesome in a day and age where the Latis + Thunderus run rampant, just outspeeding them both by a hair when fully invested (Kinda reminds me of DPt Garchomp's speed lolol). Overall, It's definitely one of my new favorite mons, and a threat every OU team should have a proper answer to. It's not every day you see a PU mon go to OU in a month, y'know? :]
jzplr
formerly SuperLuigi9624
Hah. Well, considering there are a fair amount of checks I don't think he's too unbalanced. :)If ive said it once i've said it a thousand times, but I really like Contrary Serperior in this meta's OU.
If played correctly (and not staying in on an obvious scarfer just cause you're +6 already lol) this thing is a massive threat that puts an immense amount of pressure on the opponent to stop before it gets a clean sweep. Offensively, Serperior has Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse as staples, either HP Ground or Fire depending on what your team deals with, and Giga Drain. And that's about it :[. However, Serperior's downright awesome support/utility movepool and unique learnset makes better than you may think given it's dissapointing coverage. With a utitlity belt including Dual Screens, Synthesis, Knock Off (Because lets be honest, mixed serperior is not worth the investment, so Knock Off is really a utility pick over offense), Leech Seed + Sub, and Glare, it has many options to run leaving foes downright confused over what it may do when it comes from, aside from obvious Leaf Storm spam. Its speed tier is nothing short of awesome in a day and age where the Latis + Thunderus run rampant, just outspeeding them both by a hair when fully invested (Kinda reminds me of DPt Garchomp's speed lolol). Overall, It's definitely one of my new favorite mons, and a threat every OU team should have a proper answer to. It's not every day you see a PU mon go to OU in a month, y'know? :]
Speaking of that, anyone remember Quagsire? He's one of my faves and definitely a fun defensive mon, and guess what? When the X/Y meta was still relatively recent, he was OU. And now he's in NU. What happened? xD
It was only OU because Cancerpass was in full swing; so every unaware 'mon was really needed to 'counter' espeon and such.
After that it wasn't that good anymore. It's still okay, if there's one thing cancerpass did for us it was make us aware Quagsire wasn't bad, but it just isn't as good anymore compared to Clefable and such.
At the higher level it's technically OU. It's still a solid defensive mon that beats Bisharp, Scizor, Mega Charizard X, Manectric, and more, and is definitely worth your bulky water slot on a stall team if you need those covered.
jzplr
formerly SuperLuigi9624
Yeah, Quagsire is in the same boat as before-tier shift Kabutops.
The very few NU 'mons that can actually do something in OU.
Kabutops just went back to RU this month's tier shift, but yeah, any lower tier Pokemon that are viable in OU are cool.
jzplr
formerly SuperLuigi9624
Yyyyyup. Truly respectable.
I'm actually writing a Whimsicott analysis for OU. But, that's beside the point.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
whimsicott is quite meh... what does it do besides being annoying? we have other memento users that actually do useful things, we have other prankster/fast taunt users that can actually take advantage of those free turns to do things, subseeding things is not that helpful so i don't know what's its niche
Geopass
Yeah, really cool pokemon, but just not as brain dead easy to include in teams as Clefable (not to disrespect Clefable, it's my absolute favourite pokemon). Charizard X becoming less dominant in the meta with ORAS certainly didn't help Quagsire's position (although, for what it's worth, I never felt that Quagsire was as good as a counter as it was made out to be, since it got utterly wrecked by outrage). It used to be a staple of my XY teams, but ORAS made it a lot harder for Quagsire to find its niche.
I was frustrated with Mega-Alakazam and then i decided to test a few alternative sets, this one was one of the bests and the one i enjoyed the most:
Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 84 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Recover
- Guard Split
- Psyshock
The idea is to throw him against tanks, trace their abilities and reduce their defenses while increasing ours.
Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 84 SpA / 172 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Recover
- Guard Split
- Psyshock
The idea is to throw him against tanks, trace their abilities and reduce their defenses while increasing ours.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
this is quite gimmick, if you want to beat bulky things you can just run taunt+3 attacks or sub+3 attacks, this way you basically stop them from doing their supporting job and you generate free turns; only problem is that megazam is fuckin frail so even weak attacks from defensive pokemons can hurt it.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Unaware doesn't beat Baton Pass because Stored Power still gets to 200+ BP where it easily OHKOs Quagsire
Quagsire is still good because it counters stuff like Bisharp and Mega Scizor but many pokemon it could beat in XY (char-x for example) is used way less often
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
i think that quagsire actually have some merits as the unaware mon over fable in a stall team, also because they perform different roles. clefable pretty much is the cleric of the team when used in stall teams so that's its job and it doesn't do a lot more other than firing off moonblasts sometimes; on the other hand quagsire has a good defensive typing that leaves it with a good set of resistances and only one weakness which makes it a good answer to many threats like those sketchup listed above, it is also a stop to volt switchers that can be incredibly annoying for stall and can actually pressure the opponent more than clefable with toxic or potential scald burns.
It was mainly there cause it was the epitome of redundancy of haze unaware so it sorta did counter in some cases. Its not as effective with the likes of some heavy hitter around, but its still useful if its what you are looking for.
Least it wasnt numel in the swagplay case
I only ever use quagsire if stall team is just incredibly weak to char-x, but this usually doesn't work out because char-x is almost always paired with gothitelle. It's still a nice bulky water overall but the low base stats let it down against pokemon that use their own high base stats (instead of boosting) to wallbreak.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
no char-x is not always paired with goth o.o
and quag doesn't check only char but also a bunch of other dangerous threats like sharp, scizor, victini and basically every physical setup sweeper, of course it cannot handle the raw power of some wallbreakers like char-y or mega garde but you have other spots on your team to fix that. Quagsire's stats paired with its good set of resistances are enough to make it a solid physical wall and a good choice for any stall team
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-01/moveset/ou-1825.txt
According to the usage stats Gothitelle is paired up with Charizard fewer than 1.655% of the time (comparision: excadrill is paired up 10% of the time) and this is not even including the times where Gothitelle is paired up with Zard-Y over Zard-X.
Quagsire doesn't mean to wall pokemon like Metagross, but it beats stuff like Scizor who need the boosts to win against stall and Quagsire stops these pokemon.
Volcarona seems to be very good in the current meta game. It's defensive set has very little checks and counters, outside of Birdspam. It's ability to come in and set up on popular new megas at the moment, such as M-Sableye, M-Slowbro, M-Scizor and even M-Gallade, which can barely 3HKO it. M-Lopunny also fears burning itself, thanks to Flame Body.
Of course, it's weakness to Rocks can easily be abused and means that it has limited switch in opportunities. But it's not as limited as you may think -- it's good speed stat and access to Roost allows it to come in on slower threats that can't do much to it, and quickly heal off the damage.
It's uniquely powerful STABs, backed by a gargantuan 135 base Special Attack stat hits nearly everything for neutral damage barring bulky waters/dragons such as standard Gyarados, Keldeo and Dragonite.
Once it's checks and counters have been removed, there is very little that stops Volcarona from setting up multiple Quiver Dances and then sweeping with ease.
The Volcross core is also a powerful one, both offensively and defensively as they threaten each other's checks and counters (Although this may be rendered a little moot in light of the recently announced suspect test)
Thoughts?
Of course, it's weakness to Rocks can easily be abused and means that it has limited switch in opportunities. But it's not as limited as you may think -- it's good speed stat and access to Roost allows it to come in on slower threats that can't do much to it, and quickly heal off the damage.
It's uniquely powerful STABs, backed by a gargantuan 135 base Special Attack stat hits nearly everything for neutral damage barring bulky waters/dragons such as standard Gyarados, Keldeo and Dragonite.
Once it's checks and counters have been removed, there is very little that stops Volcarona from setting up multiple Quiver Dances and then sweeping with ease.
The Volcross core is also a powerful one, both offensively and defensively as they threaten each other's checks and counters (Although this may be rendered a little moot in light of the recently announced suspect test)
Thoughts?
While I am excited to see Volcarona rise up the ranks and get a lot more useful; every time I try to calc it it always seems to suffer from 4MSS. Quiver Dance is necessary; but aside from that it wants Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, HP Ground, Roost and Giga Drain. I always find it incredibly hard to find a set that's well-rounded with just three of those.
Is the defensive set still viable? I rarely see it and always thought offensive was more of a threat since it can't boost its bad defense stat anyway. Granted it does have Flame Body but that's not reliable.
Most water types really aren't a huge issue for the offensive set with +1 Giga Drain and +1 SpDef allows it to tank most Scalds as well, you really only need a bit of prior damage on them. AV Azumarill is a threat as well as Gyarados but Keldeo doesn't check it at +1.
I've been running Quiver Dance / Fire Blast / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz, which allows other fire types + Gyarados + Dragonite to wall it (and Chansey always does). I'm not really into Roost because I think coverage is more important -- Roost seems to just amplify the matchup problem Volcarona already has. Granted, it does allow you to set up further on some things, but that's just my personal thought on it. HP Ground does help with Heatran and Zard X but Talonflame still fully stops it. Bug Buzz lets it smack fat Psychic types and the Latis as well as giving a secondary neutral STAB on things like Garchomp/Victini and lets it KO some things without risking a miss.
I'm not going to lie and say I've tried HP Ground or Roost (well not since BW) but I've had very nice success without them. Heatran is one of those pokes that so many things enjoy seeing dead so there are tons of ways to lure it in and KO it. Most of the other things that check Volcarona are also weak to Stealth Rocks so if you can force them out a few times they get greatly weakened.
I do agree it suffers a bit from 4MSS / lack of coverage but it is still very effective if you tailor your team to weaken whatever checks or counters you choose for it based on the moveset. Ultimately a pretty matchup dependent mon IMO but it really shines when it has a solid team matchup (plz no Chansey or Talonflame). Also it's a counter to Serperior which is always sweet for free setup.
Most water types really aren't a huge issue for the offensive set with +1 Giga Drain and +1 SpDef allows it to tank most Scalds as well, you really only need a bit of prior damage on them. AV Azumarill is a threat as well as Gyarados but Keldeo doesn't check it at +1.
I've been running Quiver Dance / Fire Blast / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz, which allows other fire types + Gyarados + Dragonite to wall it (and Chansey always does). I'm not really into Roost because I think coverage is more important -- Roost seems to just amplify the matchup problem Volcarona already has. Granted, it does allow you to set up further on some things, but that's just my personal thought on it. HP Ground does help with Heatran and Zard X but Talonflame still fully stops it. Bug Buzz lets it smack fat Psychic types and the Latis as well as giving a secondary neutral STAB on things like Garchomp/Victini and lets it KO some things without risking a miss.
I'm not going to lie and say I've tried HP Ground or Roost (well not since BW) but I've had very nice success without them. Heatran is one of those pokes that so many things enjoy seeing dead so there are tons of ways to lure it in and KO it. Most of the other things that check Volcarona are also weak to Stealth Rocks so if you can force them out a few times they get greatly weakened.
I do agree it suffers a bit from 4MSS / lack of coverage but it is still very effective if you tailor your team to weaken whatever checks or counters you choose for it based on the moveset. Ultimately a pretty matchup dependent mon IMO but it really shines when it has a solid team matchup (plz no Chansey or Talonflame). Also it's a counter to Serperior which is always sweet for free setup.
As far as partners go, RP Mega Diancie is a great one. RP Diancie primarily has issues with bulky Steels (along side bulky Venusaur). Volc is capable of handling virtually every Steel type short of Heatran... who Diancie takes care of with Earth Power. Volc on the other hand has issues with Fire types (if running Fire Blast, Giga Drain and Bug Buzz, which it should). Well, Diancie is a great check to Char-X, Talonflame and most other common Steels in the tier. The only issue is the core is very Water weak, and has trouble with fatter teams. From there, Thundurus, Keldeo, and certain Latios make excellent teammates, as they can break Stall and resist Water. I believe AM posted a core along these lines in the Good Cores thread, so I'd go check that out.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
''don't ban megagross fairies will dominate''
how about no
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play
- Clear Smog
Godly Mushroom Amoonguss is a very cool pokemon in this metagame because it can switch into many offensive threats and annoy them to death.
Some situations versus common pokemon not including Spore, which helps Amoonguss even more
Vs. Mega Diancie
Vs. Keldeo
Vs. Assault Vest Azumarill
Vs. Banded Azumarill
Vs. Belly Drum Azumarill
Vs. Dragon Dance Mega Altaria
Vs. Clefable
how about no
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play
- Clear Smog
Godly Mushroom Amoonguss is a very cool pokemon in this metagame because it can switch into many offensive threats and annoy them to death.
Some situations versus common pokemon not including Spore, which helps Amoonguss even more
Vs. Mega Diancie
16 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 168-198 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 146-174 (60.5 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*Amoonguss comes in on a Diamond Storm, takes 45%, goes back to 61% because of Black Sludge. Diancie Diamond Storm = 16% Amoonguss, Amoonguss Giga Drain and restores 20% of his health and gets back to 42% of his health with Black Sludge. Diancie needs 3 high rolls + predict the switch to win.
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 146-174 (60.5 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
*Amoonguss comes in on a Diamond Storm, takes 45%, goes back to 61% because of Black Sludge. Diancie Diamond Storm = 16% Amoonguss, Amoonguss Giga Drain and restores 20% of his health and gets back to 42% of his health with Black Sludge. Diancie needs 3 high rolls + predict the switch to win.
Vs. Keldeo
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 140-165 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 152-182 (47 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
*Amoonguss comes in and because of Black Sludge gets to 68%. Giga Drain restores 21% and 2HKOs Keldeo. So after 2 turns Keldeo is at 45% and Amoonguss is at 57%. Versus SubCM Keldeo, Amoonguss can get it out the sub with Giga Drain even at +2 and can Clear Smog the SpD boosts if needed to
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 152-182 (47 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
*Amoonguss comes in and because of Black Sludge gets to 68%. Giga Drain restores 21% and 2HKOs Keldeo. So after 2 turns Keldeo is at 45% and Amoonguss is at 57%. Versus SubCM Keldeo, Amoonguss can get it out the sub with Giga Drain even at +2 and can Clear Smog the SpD boosts if needed to
Vs. Assault Vest Azumarill
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 131-155 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 114-134 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
*Amoonguss takes max 36% on the switch in, and after that only takes 25% makes with Play Rough (Knock Off goes back to 65 BP)
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 114-134 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
*Amoonguss takes max 36% on the switch in, and after that only takes 25% makes with Play Rough (Knock Off goes back to 65 BP)
Vs. Banded Azumarill
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 197-232 (45.6 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 170-204 (46.8 - 56.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
*Amoonguss goes to 47% on the switch in versus Knock Off and loses 36% the next turn. So Amoonguss is at 17%. After giga drain it restores 24% and it 2HKOs Azumarill.
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 170-204 (46.8 - 56.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
*Amoonguss goes to 47% on the switch in versus Knock Off and loses 36% the next turn. So Amoonguss is at 17%. After giga drain it restores 24% and it 2HKOs Azumarill.
Vs. Belly Drum Azumarill
*Azumarill OHKO's with +6 Knock Off, but without Knock Off it fails to OHKO and Amoonguss removes the Belly Drum boost.
Vs. Dragon Dance Mega Altaria
192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 104-123 (24 - 28.4%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 92-110 (29.9 - 35.8%) -- 32.3% chance to 3HKO
*While Altaria can win 1v1 because Amoonguss doesn't have recovery outside of black sludge and Altaria has Roost, Amoonguss can keep pivotting out and remove the boosts. It wins the PP war against Mega Altaria because of Regenerator + Clear Smog + Spore
0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 92-110 (29.9 - 35.8%) -- 32.3% chance to 3HKO
*While Altaria can win 1v1 because Amoonguss doesn't have recovery outside of black sludge and Altaria has Roost, Amoonguss can keep pivotting out and remove the boosts. It wins the PP war against Mega Altaria because of Regenerator + Clear Smog + Spore
Vs. Clefable
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 130-154 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 84-102 (21.3 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
*Same situation as versus Mega Altaria. Amoonguss can remove boosts with Clear Smog and wins the PP war because of Spore + Regenerator + Clear Smog
0 SpA Amoonguss Clear Smog vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 84-102 (21.3 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
*Same situation as versus Mega Altaria. Amoonguss can remove boosts with Clear Smog and wins the PP war because of Spore + Regenerator + Clear Smog
Eh it doesn't always need HP Ground nor Giga Drain. It's defensive set can set up on a lot of bulky waters, and Heatran can't really do anything to it unless it has Ancient Power/Stone Edge. Rotom-W is set up bait, provided Rocks aren't up and he doesn't get a crit as Volcarona can easily take a Hydro Pump, Quiver Dance, and then take only 50% max from another Hydro Pump. Considering it's measly accuracy, you can PP stall/bank for a miss by constantly using Roost.
And you'll be faster than him so you will get at least 1 Dance off before he Taunts. Fiery Dance is the preferable option, especially for bulkier sets. This set really covers just about everything you need really, and best used mid-late game when it's checks/counters are weakened. That said, you can even send it out early to do some serious damage with Fiery Dance, even uninvested it still packs a punch from base 135 Sp.Atk. This set works best for me:
Gwyn (Volcarona) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Roost
Outspeeds max base 70s and Honchkrow, can take hits well due to max investment in bulk and finds easy set up opportunities due to Roost. Also punishes weaker physical attackers hard with Flame Body.
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