Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[darkrai147]

care to explain how mega-pinsir can sweep a "high majority" of types? Rotom-W (water), Avalugg (ice) and Cloyster (water and ice) are found on a lot of teams and stop Mega-Pinsir pretty handily...

Also, this discussion took place many pages ago, but Mega-Pinsir is different from Talonflame in a few key aspects:

- Mega-Pinsir can only be used on Bug, which limits the amount of matches you would ever see it in, and that's if the Bug user doesn't want Mega-Scizor or Mega-Heracross instead (compared to Talonflame, which was found on every single Fire and Flying team)
- Mega-Pinsir eats up your mega-slot, Tflame does not
- Talonflame not only has stronger priority than Mega-Pinsir, but has a secondary STAB that roasts steel types (Mega-Pinsir must rely on non-STAB EQ and CC, and can only run one of these which leaves it vulnerable to steels that aren't covered by its coverage move)

There's more, but I don't see Mega-Pinsir being suspected anytime soon

Rotom-W:
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 186-219 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 225-265 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 170-204 (62.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 135-159 (49.8 - 58.6%)

Both moves 2hko even after will-o-wisp, and volt switch and hydro do not kill unless it took more than one round of rocks damage, which is not likely since it usually won't come in before the end game.


Avalugg:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 302-356 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 192-226 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Can not switch in on Close Combat or SD if rocks are up


Cloyster:
Really?
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You didn't even mention the other types so I'll assume you know it can easily sweep those as well.
To me, only being on type is irrelevant, that in no way affects it's offensive presence. While it's true that Talonflame had a second stab move, it has a much lower attack stat than Pinsir making that kind of irrelevant as well. I'll concede that it takes up the mega slot, but we've already banned several megas for their offensive capabilities, so does that really matter?

 

[Acast]

care to explain how mega-pinsir can sweep a "high majority" of types? Rotom-W (water), Avalugg (ice) and Cloyster (water and ice) are found on a lot of teams and stop Mega-Pinsir pretty handily...

Also, this discussion took place many pages ago, but Mega-Pinsir is different from Talonflame in a few key aspects:

- Mega-Pinsir can only be used on Bug, which limits the amount of matches you would ever see it in, and that's if the Bug user doesn't want Mega-Scizor or Mega-Heracross instead (compared to Talonflame, which was found on every single Fire and Flying team)
- Mega-Pinsir eats up your mega-slot, Tflame does not
- Talonflame not only has stronger priority than Mega-Pinsir, but has a secondary STAB that roasts steel types (Mega-Pinsir must rely on non-STAB EQ and CC, and can only run one of these which leaves it vulnerable to steels that aren't covered by its coverage move)

There's more, but I don't see Mega-Pinsir being suspected anytime soon

While I agree Mega Pinsir isn't as big of a deal as Talonflame was, it definitely does sweep a lot of types. I was skeptical of it sweeping Ice too when I first saw darkrai147 say that, but I did some calcs and it really does sweep if it has rock support after 1 Swords Dance.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 274-324 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
^That's with max Defense Avalugg and Jolly Pinsir after a Swords Dance. Adamant Pinsir is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock damage. Admittedly, that is only if rocks are up and Avalugg does OHKO Pinsir with Avalanche if it survives, so take that as you will.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No Swords Dance boost and Pinsir is still more than likely going to OHKO, but again, only if Stealth Rock is up.

Ice is basically screwed no matter which way you look at it if Stealth Rock goes up and you're facing a Pinsir. That's probably not new information, nor is it surprising, but it does add another type to the list that more or less gets swept by it.

Of all the pokemon in the metagame that could potentially be looked at next for a suspect I suppose Mega Pinsir is towards the top of my list, but I wouldn't place it as public enemy #1. And as others have said, the metagame is relatively balanced right now so I'd rather not suspect anything.

EDIT: People keep sniping me ;-;

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Given that he voted "Do Not Ban," I don't think he meant that post to be taken seriously in the slightest.

I'm sorry. I didn't check the suspect thread about the Mega Sableye in a while, nor do I stalk ed wins, so I didn't know that he was being sarcastic. In my defense, however, I don't think me not getting a reference from another forum is completely foolish.

Mega Pinsir shouldn't be suspected, but it sure does cause hell on earth to types that are weak to it such as Grass. For instance, once Mega Pinsir uses Swords Dance, it's Game Over. After this, it will be able to kill Mega Venusaur, and will have a 62.5% to kill Ferrothorn. At +2 there is virtually nothing on Monotype Grass that can stop it.

However, Coba Berry Tangrowth lives a +2 Return and can try to Sleep Powder, and then Rock Slide, and there is Sash Breloom, but Breloom is dead if rocks are up. And Grass has no remotely viable ways at all of getting rid of rocks, if I'm correct. It only has Shiftry. And let's be honest. Who even uses Shiftry.

Ice has a little easier time as it can OHKO it with their STAB moves but they still face trouble. As other users have stated, a 2+ CC Adamant will OHKO Avalugg after SR, but let's not forget Sash Mamoswine and Choice Scarf Kyurem-Black. Mamoswine can live a +2 Attack with the Sash and OHKO, and Kyurem-Black stomachs a +2 Quick Attack (or Feint, I guess...) and can OHKO with Fusion Bolt.

Bug has a hard time too. At +2 it will be able to smash through everything Bug has, and all Bug can hope for is the burn chance on Volcarona's Flame Body. Bulky Mega Scizor only has a 20% chance to live a +2 Return but unfortunately cannot do much back. Galvantula outspeeds and OHKO it but will die to any of it's attacks if at +2. But in general, I see Galvantula used as a lead, so it will be one of the first mons to die.
Basically Bug is screwed if Mega Pinsir at +2.

Now, Mega Pinsir obviously thrives on the Pokemon that are weak to Flying Types. But unfortunately, other, higher-tier types have easier ways to deal with them. Physical Walls such as Skarmory and Mandibuzz can live a +2 Attack and use their respective moves (Foul Play and Brave Bird). Mega Sableye The Slayer can burn Mega Pinsir and proceed to set up on it, and eventually finish it off with Dark Pulse. Fairies can live Mega Pinsir's attacks through the aid of Klefki, who can paralyze then set up screens. In general, Stealth Rocks really hurt Mega Pinsir so if the team defogger is gone, and you can force a switch, it should be easy pickings.

The Marquis Of Blaze's Opinion: No Suspect. It may be terrifying to some types, but it is relatively easily handled by others.

 

[Arash]

While I agree Mega Pinsir isn't as big of a deal as Talonflame was, it definitely does sweep a lot of types. I was skeptical of it sweeping Ice too when I first saw darkrai147 say that, but I did some calcs and it really does sweep if it has rock support after 1 Swords Dance.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 274-324 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
^That's with max Defense Avalugg and Jolly Pinsir after a Swords Dance. Adamant Pinsir is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock damage. Admittedly, that is only if rocks are up and Avalugg does OHKO Pinsir with Avalanche if it survives, so take that as you will.

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No Swords Dance boost and Pinsir is still more than likely going to OHKO, but again, only if Stealth Rock is up.

Ice is basically screwed no matter which way you look at it if Stealth Rock goes up and you're facing a Pinsir. That's probably not new information, nor is it surprising, but it does add another type to the list that more or less gets swept by it.

Of all the pokemon in the metagame that could potentially be looked at next for a suspect I suppose Mega Pinsir is towards the top of my list, but I wouldn't place it as public enemy #1. And as others have said, the metagame is relatively balanced right now so I'd rather not suspect anything.

EDIT: People keep sniping me ;-;

If Ice has SR up against it and you manage to give mega-pinsir a free turn to SD, then yes the battle is basically lost. Looking at different calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard (after a shell smash) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 117-138 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

In this case, if Cloyster can manage to set up and not let Mega-Pinsir get to +2 for free, it typically pulls out ahead. If you don't care for Ice Shard, Icicle Spear will OHKO even regular Pinsir with no attack boosting item, and Cloyster will outspeed any Mega-Pinsir at +2, forcing it to Quick Attack.

252 SpA Rotom-F Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 276-326 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 338-398 (124.7 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 216-254 (79.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 91-108 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If Ice royally screws up and gets SR permanently on its side, it can still rely on scarf Rotom-F (you will need rocks on the opponent's team to guarantee the OHKO with volt switch, but its other attacks do the job nicely).

These points aside, if Mega-Pinsir gets a free turn to SD and has rocks on the opponent's side of the field, it's going to do major damage to every type. The same goes for Mega-Gyarados, Mega-Gallade, Dragonite, Aegislash, etc. etc.... Just like Mega-Scizor vs. Ice, Ice can technically win despite the huge odds against it, but it has to plan for it in advance and play carefully so that it doesn't get a free +2 attack.

Bug vs Bug is a mirror match, and again if Mega-Pinsir is banned, Bug will have exactly the same difficulty facing...itself. Fighting and Grass do hate this thing also, but due to its weaker priority, they can at least manage it with stuff like scarf Rotom-C and Terrakion if played smartly. Bottom line is, if you are up against a bug team and you see Pinsir, it is paramount that you keep your Mega-Pinsir checks alive so that you don't auto-lose. It is the same logic that Poison teams must have vs. Lando-I, or that Ghost teams must have against Hoopa-U.

To me, only being on one type is irrelevant, that in no way affects it's offensive presence. While it's true that Talonflame had a second stab move, it has a much lower attack stat than Pinsir making that kind of irrelevant as well. I'll concede that it takes up the mega slot, but we've already banned several megas for their offensive capabilities, so does that really matter?

It does matter, because although Talonflame has a lower attack stat, it is capable of holding an item to boost it (Sharp Beak, CB, etc.). Talonflame's second STAB is definitely not irrelevant, or else Ferrothorn would be a good check on Grass.

The fact that Mega-Pinsir only shows up on Bug teams is also noteworthy, as Bug teams don't have pokemon that take all Rock/Fire/Flying attacks exceptionally well (as opposed to something like Flying, who gets Skarm to take Rock attacks, Gliscor/Lando for Electric, and Mega-Gyara for Ice). Also, and perhaps more curiously, Mega-Pinsir is the first mon to be discussed in this manner that is only available on one type. If something like Mega-Sableye were only available to Ghost types (say, a pure ghost type which mega-evolved to Mega-Sableye ghost/dark), would it have even been suspected? If Mega-Pinsir was available for Flying types, would it have already been suspected? Food for thought, I guess...

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

If Ice has SR up against it and you manage to give mega-pinsir a free turn to SD, then yes the battle is basically lost. Looking at different calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard (after a shell smash) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 117-138 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

In this case, if Cloyster can manage to set up and not let Mega-Pinsir get to +2 for free, it typically pulls out ahead. If you don't care for Ice Shard, Icicle Spear will OHKO even regular Pinsir with no attack boosting item, and Cloyster will outspeed any Mega-Pinsir at +2, forcing it to Quick Attack.

252 SpA Rotom-F Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 276-326 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 338-398 (124.7 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 216-254 (79.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 91-108 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If Ice royally screws up and gets SR permanently on its side, it can still rely on scarf Rotom-F (you will need rocks on the opponent's team to guarantee the OHKO with volt switch, but its other attacks do the job nicely).

These points aside, if Mega-Pinsir gets a free turn to SD and has rocks on the opponent's side of the field, it's going to do major damage to every type. The same goes for Mega-Gyarados, Mega-Gallade, Dragonite, Aegislash, etc. etc.... Just like Mega-Scizor vs. Ice, Ice can technically win despite the huge odds against it, but it has to plan for it in advance and play carefully so that it doesn't get a free +2 attack.

Bug vs Bug is a mirror match, and again if Mega-Pinsir is banned, Bug will have exactly the same difficulty facing...itself. Fighting and Grass do hate this thing also, but due to its weaker priority, they can at least manage it with stuff like scarf Rotom-C and Terrakion if played smartly. Bottom line is, if you are up against a bug team and you see Pinsir, it is paramount that you keep your Mega-Pinsir checks alive so that you don't auto-lose. It is the same logic that Poison teams must have vs. Lando-I, or that Ghost teams must have against Hoopa-U.



It does matter, because although Talonflame has a lower attack stat, it is capable of holding an item to boost it (Sharp Beak, CB, etc.). Talonflame's second STAB is definitely not irrelevant, or else Ferrothorn would be a good check on Grass.

The fact that Mega-Pinsir only shows up on Bug teams is also noteworthy, as Bug teams don't have pokemon that take all Rock/Fire/Flying attacks exceptionally well (as opposed to something like Flying, who gets Skarm to take Rock attacks, Gliscor/Lando for Electric, and Mega-Gyara for Ice). Also, and perhaps more curiously, Mega-Pinsir is the first mon to be discussed in this manner that is only available on one type. If something like Mega-Sableye were only available to Ghost types (say, a pure ghost type which mega-evolved to Mega-Sableye ghost/dark), would it have even been suspected? If Mega-Pinsir was available for Flying types, would it have already been suspected? Food for thought, I guess...

How come I'm the only one called out for theorymoning? KIDDING

To answer your question, I guess Mega Pinsir would probably be suspected if it were on Flying Monotype, because it would have a lot more support than Bug, and it would have a better role as a Mega. But I doubt type-changed Megas will be allowed into new types, so let's not get into a discussion on that. Sab probably would have a less buzz if it was restricted to Ghost because people would be more understanding that Ghost absolutely needs Mega Sableye.
In fact in general, you should never let Mega Pinsir get a free turn when it's on the field, because a +2 Mega Pinsir can rip through all of the metagame, OHKOing and 2HKOing literally all physical walls (besides Aegi and Doublade).
But about your philosophy on it doing major damage to all types at +2, that kinda goes for any powerful attacker with priority. Talonflame basically gave Grass, Fighting, and Bug Teams no chance to shine, although Talonflame's checks lie in Cradily, Occa Berry Cobalion, and Armaldo. But if your team lacked these, your team was literally DEAD.

Yep

 

[Rhalekin]

People take the definition of broken or too powerful in a wrong way. Just because a pokemon sweeps or walls types doesnt mean: "OMG ITS BROKEN, BAN IT". It has to be the similar case of pokemon like mega altaria or Talonflame. It needs viable sweeping options, recovery, Supports team in a major way and be able to sweep the metagame, aka abusing a pokemon for the meta to win. Landorus-I, Mega Pinsir, and Mega scizor have all those options but they lack sweeping the metagame and lots and lots of pokemon that can take it down and their abilities arent super broken. (Dont give me the "but technician, sheer force, and aeriliate are super power", they arent crazy stupid like parental bond or download) Many pokemon can take them out, people really define broken as nitpicking things that seem stupid (ex of stupid: mega sab) or losing to it all lot (ex: using rock or fairy and letting a mega scizor get up a sd). Like scpinion said, the metagame is balanced, theres nothing that breaks or sweeps the meta. Lets just wait and see if people find out that rock tomb garchomp can sweep steel, than we can decide.

 

[MZ]

Alright sorry for the callout post
Basically what I've seen is that there's a lot of things getting thrown out automatically as potential suspects, and in a few cases even using "I was just kidding" when refuted. It's entirely possible that nothing will be suspected because it doesn't need to be though. Plus, things will definitely seem worse because certain Pokemon can have a great matchup versus a certain type while not actually being broken or even particularly great. I think if anything needs to be brought up for suspect, it should be shown to just win versus at least 2-3 types on its own. The fact that the last suspect wasn't banned it just more of a suggestive factor that the meta is close to as balanced as one where you can have mono fire vs mono water can be

 

[Thimo]

With people trying to get something new suspected in Monotype, I need to teach you all some stuff. So the things I've seen alot lately are Landorus-I, Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir. One thing that Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir need, is Swords Dance. If you have enough offensive pressure. They won't be able to setup. With Landorus-I it's a different story. Moves you will always see on that thing are Earth Power, and quite often also Focus Blast. The last 2 moves are usually fillers such as Psychic, Sludge Wave, Calm Mind, Rock Slide, Hidden Power Ice, Gravity and even Stealth Rocks. Now I know that's quite alot you could expect from 1 Pokémon, but looking at it the way I look at it. It's quite easy to check. Anything faster with an Ice move obviously defeats it like 99% of the time, But if you're using a type like Steel, it can be quite hard to fit on something faster with an Ice move. It will most likely switch out on Magnezone or Jirachi, so you have to think out of the box a little. Assault Vest is great for this, as this boosts Special Defense by 50%, something that can make some stuff that are usually no good idea against Landorus-I a viable check, for example:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 260-307 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

You can live this a 100% if you are willing to have a little bit less attacking power. However, I can live with a 12.5%. One other thing I like to do, which applies for all 3 of them, are Weakness Berries. I use Babiri Berry Togekiss, and it's been doing it's job really good. If you want a Mega Pinsir check so badly, try Coba Berry on something, for example:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Coba Berry Yanmega: 220-259 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No need to be afraid if you have this sweetie on your Bug Team. I hope you will all try out the highly underrated Assault Vest and Weakness Berries for Pokémon like these 3, because they are definitly worth it!

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

With people trying to get something new suspected in Monotype, I need to teach you all some stuff. So the things I've seen alot lately are Landorus-I, Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir. One thing that Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir need, is Swords Dance. If you have enough offensive pressure. They won't be able to setup. With Landorus-I it's a different story. Moves you will always see on that thing are Earth Power, and quite often also Focus Blast. The last 2 moves are usually fillers such as Psychic, Sludge Wave, Calm Mind, Rock Slide, Hidden Power Ice, Gravity and even Stealth Rocks. Now I know that's quite alot you could expect from 1 Pokémon, but looking at it the way I look at it. It's quite easy to check. Anything faster with an Ice move obviously defeats it like 99% of the time, But if you're using a type like Steel, it can be quite hard to fit on something faster with an Ice move. It will most likely switch out on Magnezone or Jirachi, so you have to think out of the box a little. Assault Vest is great for this, as this boosts Special Defense by 50%, something that can make some stuff that are usually no good idea against Landorus-I a viable check, for example:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 260-307 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

You can live this a 100% if you are willing to have a little bit less attacking power. However, I can live with a 12.5%. One other thing I like to do, which applies for all 3 of them, are Weakness Berries. I use Babiri Berry Togekiss, and it's been doing it's job really good. If you want a Mega Pinsir check so badly, try Coba Berry on something, for example:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Coba Berry Yanmega: 220-259 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No need to be afraid if you have this sweetie on your Bug Team. I hope you will all try out the highly underrated Assault Vest and Weakness Berries for Pokémon like these 3, because they are definitly worth it!

What. Assault Vest Metagross isn't a viable check to Landorus-Incarnate. As the calc shows, if Metagross lives, it will no doubtedly be mortally wounded and without speed investment, it will basically be dead weight for the rest of the match. And let's say if it was a check, boy oh boy, AV Metagross isn't much of a good Pokemon in general. There are other ways on Steel to deal with Lando than AV Meta that aren't useless anywhere else.
About Coba Berry Yanmega, Yanmega cannot switch in either, and without Specs or LO it cannot do much damage to any other pokes besides Mega Pinsir. And if rocks are up you can forget about yanmega.

I am all for Weakness Berries, but Coba Berry Yanmega and Assault Vest Metagross are just complete dead weight, in my opinion.

 

[Thimo]

What. Assault Vest Metagross isn't a viable check to Landorus-Incarnate. As the calc shows, if Metagross lives, it will no doubtedly be mortally wounded and without speed investment, it will basically be dead weight for the rest of the match. And let's say if it was a check, boy oh boy, AV Metagross isn't much of a good Pokemon in general. There are other ways on Steel to deal with Lando than AV Meta that aren't useless anywhere else.
About Coba Berry Yanmega, Yanmega cannot switch in either, and without Specs or LO it cannot do much damage to any other pokes besides Mega Pinsir. And if rocks are up you can forget about yanmega.

I am all for Weakness Berries, but Coba Berry Yanmega and Assault Vest Metagross are just complete dead weight, in my opinion.

Your whole steel team would be dead weight

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Your whole steel team would be dead weight

Huh? Is that an attempt at an insult or something? What does that even mean.


Anyway,

To be fair, we opted to go with OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy because they provide a clear framework for discussion. I think those definitions apply across all metagames.

We also augmented that philosophy with 3 additional components unique to monotype.

My philosophy is that all metagames have a somewhat similar banlist, and it's true. For instance, basically every single metagame that is not AG or Hackmons doesn't allow Mega Rayquaza or more than one Pokemon knowing Baton Pass. In a way, the Monotype's banlist is derived from OU's.

Pokemon Politics.

 

[terrors]

Huh? Is that an attempt at an insult or something? What does that even mean.


Anyway,

My philosophy is that all metagames have a somewhat similar banlist, and it's true. For instance, basically every single metagame that is not AG or Hackmons doesn't allow Mega Rayquaza or more than one Pokemon knowing Baton Pass. In a way, the Monotype's banlist is derived from OU's.

Pokemon Politics.

What he's trying to say is that without AV Metagross, your entire team would be useless vs Landorus-I so I'd rather have a check thats dead weight for the rest of the match than an entire steel team that can't touch Lando I..

 

[Alexis Breeze]

Anyway,

My philosophy is that all metagames have a somewhat similar banlist, and it's true. For instance, basically every single metagame that is not AG or Hackmons doesn't allow Mega Rayquaza or more than one Pokemon knowing Baton Pass. In a way, the Monotype's banlist is derived from OU's.

Smogon "Politics".

This is an example of slippery slope rather than strong evidence of unanimity. So please refer to one of my previous posts: stop bringing up what happens on different metas. They are DIFFERENT METAS. Want to judge this one better? I suggest you get more familiar with it. Comparisons with others won't do the trick. Have a nice day.

 

[vlmufa]

If you guys need a landorus check on steel scarf Empoleon is a good one at it, and also a great check to fire threats, much better than AV Metagross to be honest.

 

[terrors]

If you guys need a landorus check on steel scarf Empoleon is a good one at it, and also a great check to fire threats, much better than AV Metagross to be honest.

I get the feeling scarf Empoleon would only be good at HO steel and since most steel teams prefer to be defensive or balanced, I'd say AV Metagross might fit in them better.

 

[truedrew]

Non gravity Lando I can be beaten by skarm with spdef investment also bronzong

 

[average fella]

Non gravity Lando I can be beaten by skarm with spdef investment also bronzong

mixed knock off lando (16% usage on ground and 6% on flying) can eat bronzong for breakfast, and bronzong is killed before you can kill lando unless you use hp ice

4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 141-166 (44.2 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 195-231 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 133-156 (39.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

skarmory is a problem for landorus-i lacking gravity, though, but i think they were looking for ways to beat grav lando on steel from the start

 

[vlmufa]

mixed knock off lando (16% usage on ground and 6% on flying) can eat bronzong for breakfast, and bronzong is killed before you can kill lando unless you use hp ice

4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 141-166 (44.2 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 195-231 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 133-156 (39.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

skarmory is a problem for landorus-i lacking gravity, though, but i think they were looking for ways to beat grav lando on steel from the start

Focus Blast Lando 2hkoes physdef Skarmory I think that's what they are talking about.

Edit: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seems like it 2hkoes spdef one too, rip.

 

[truedrew]

Well then it helps that focus miss never hits (LOL) but yeah Lando I is a problem for steel but it can be played around (so sp def Mega scizor) but to be honest I feel the meta game is in a good position right now and that jumping from suspect to suspect is just detrimental to the metagame!! Let's see how the meta evolved in the near future?

Points:
How is team building affected by the mega Sab no ban

Is there any arch type that dominates again?

Psychic the choice of mega (there are some great ones rn)

 

[Day Healer]

>inb4 my man Assault Vest Escavalier

Hide

Escavalier @ Assault Vest
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Atk / 112 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Aerial Ace/Pursuit/Drill Run

Use it becos swag. Overcoat becos fuck sleepers and last slot Aerial Ace for fightings, pursuit trap or drill run for idk

Nah out of jokes, steels beat lando with offensive pressure iirc. Also i dont think is a bad thing if a mon (lando) give problems to a top tier type (steel); same thing like mega gyarados again psychics, so i think is ok in the tier

How is team building affected by the mega Sab no ban

Is there any arch type that dominates again?

Psychic the choice of mega (there are some great ones rn)

1. The same like always, being a nuisance to teams.

2. Flying and psychic

3. Mega gardevoir becos destroying darks is fun

 

[Rhalekin]

tbh if we do ban landorus, ground is probably gonna plummet in usage since lando is the best special attacker for ground teams, and i dont think people are gonna be happy using their nidokings which dont outspeed A LOT of pokemon that lando outspeeds and scarf nidoking is gonna lose power, and people wont be too happy to see mega camerupt as their high hitting SLOW AF special attacker. Flying is gonna be alright i guess, but not so for ground. Kinda same situation of dark, hoopa gets banned and you get rid of a amazing special attacker replacement after greninja was banned for dark, and that only leaves everybody forced to use hydreigon, which isnt bad, but its gonna be the ONLY good special attacker. Think guys before you say.

 

[Wanka]

Nah there is no need to mess with landorus at all. It will only create more type only ban confusion which is the last thing this tier needs lmao. Leave it be.

Speaking of ground though....I'd like to hear some peoples thoughts about it. It seems to be gaining more popularity lately from what I've seen in tours and the ladder in general. I'm not to to surprised because it shows adaptation within the tier in terms of "How am I going to make my ground effective without smooth rock." I think I've seen fantastic strides being made for ground and it is becoming more effective of a type. My boi Cell peaked the ladder with his ground with an elo over 1800 and a gxe of 90 so I'm convinced ground is picking up steam.

I'd just like to hear some of everyones thoughts on some sets or mons that have been successful for ground users and all that jazz.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Ive been liking sub sd chomp with 2 atks recently since when you lead with chomp most people assume a rocks set and even when you dont lead it its pretty easy to suprise status things with a sub like mega sab after it mega evos. Then a sd or 2 come easily and it can really dent teams that it suprises. Specifically using lefties sd sub eq stone edge rn and it does damage when it works which thanfuly is often

As for standard ground the main things i noticed is a move to band exca and more seismitoed instead of gastrodon, everything else seems pretty much the same as smooth rock ground .-.

 

[Arash]

tbh if we do ban landorus, ground is probably gonna plummet in usage since lando is the best special attacker for ground teams, and i dont think people are gonna be happy using their nidokings which dont outspeed A LOT of pokemon that lando outspeeds and scarf nidoking is gonna lose power, and people wont be too happy to see mega camerupt as their high hitting SLOW AF special attacker. Flying is gonna be alright i guess, but not so for ground. Kinda same situation of dark, hoopa gets banned and you get rid of a amazing special attacker replacement after greninja was banned for dark, and that only leaves everybody forced to use hydreigon, which isnt bad, but its gonna be the ONLY good special attacker. Think guys before you say.

While I agree with Lando-I not even needing a suspect at this point, your logic is a bit flawed. We banned Mega-Altaria despite removing Dragon's only resist/immunity to other Dragon attacks, and we banned Char-X despite being the best boltbeam absorber and best DD booster on flying.

If a mon truly is broken (and again, not saying that Lando-I is even close to broken), it gets banned. Kyu-W was rebanned on Ice and Skymin rebanned on Grass because they themselves are broken, even though the team support was poor and the types got notably worse afterwards.

 

[Balto]

hey guys, balto here. a lot of this forum has been super banhappy, so i wanted to bring a bit of an inverse arguement to the table. most of you probably don't know a whole lot about this topic unless you've been playing since b/w, so i'll break it down.

blaziken is a mon that never really had a shot in monotype. in gen 5, monotype followed the overused banlist, so naturally when blazekin was banned in overused, it was banned in mono as well. now, from my completely honest opinion, blazekin was not overpowered in the bw monotype metagame. however, that opinion is completely void and offers no actual insight to how blaziken would do in the current metagame, since we're about 3 years past that metagame.

so since we do have this huge periodical difference, let's analyze blazekin for a second. (the critical stats are highlighted)
hp:80
atk:120
def:70
sptk:110
spdf:70
spd:80
ability:speed boost
typing:fire/fighting

these stats basically reflect how well blaziken could play a mixed/physical/special speedboost user. this stands out especially on fire, because it's such a slow type. but would infernape be broken on fire?the easy answer, is no. the evidence lies with a mon that practically mirrors blazekin's offensive stats.

good ole infernape falls just short of blazekin's offensive stats, with a 104 in both special attack as well as regular attack. the difference between the two's stats, as well as infernape's current performance on fire, leads me to believe blaziken would provide a significant boost in speed, yet not an overpowered addition to fire.

honestly, i don't think it's necessary to write a whole lot about kin on fighting, it's not a very unique mon among fighting types other than speed boost. the only significant benefit to running blaziken would be a speed boost fire stab mon vs bug, which would be quite helpful. however, overall blaziken's speed, attack, and spatk tier are NOT unique among the other fighting types.

after quick thoughts, i have no doubt that blaziken wouldn't be overpowered in a monotype metagame.
note:bp wasn't covered due to the new baton pass clause(the reason i decided to write this up in the first place.)

the discussion doesn't end here though. there is one more aspect of blaziken that we didn't cover.

let's take a look at it's stats, shall we?(too lazy to type out)

once again, mega blaziken's offensive stats point towards a perfect speed boost user. i was curious how a long-time fire user would think about mega blaziken, so i asked my boy InsanityZenith his thoughts. here are a few logs of him explaining how mega blaziken would play out on fire.



iZenith: theres only 1 base 108 speed and 4 viable base 100 speed
iZenith:so speed boost would help there
iZenith:also for the speed thing, no priority other than mach/vacuum on ape, speed boost would help

fire's speed tier is lackluster compared to other types. that, in particular, is the main reason fire struggles in the metagame. drought is completely worthless if you're unable to match opposing speed tier.

iZenith:the speed would help with beating the keldeo/terrakion offensive core that just breaks fire if one of them is scarf
this one's pretty self explanatory. mega blaziken gives fire a chance against major threats, like keldeo and terrakion, and other fast threatening mons in general.

iZenith:no knock off on all of fire... having one would be nice
this one's also really self explanatory, blaziken/mega blaziken just opens up so many roles on fire.

now here's what makes me think that fire WOULDN'T be overpowered if mega blaziken was allowed. the simple reason is, it has to trade charizard y in order to use it. without it's primary sun mega, ninetales has a chance to shine. the great thing about mega blaziken on fire is that it would provide a new style to fire. post zard x ban, char y is literally the only viable mega on fire, and this same style of fire has been played since the beginning of XY.

when we take a look at fighting, this is where the unbiased side of me get's a bit concerned. mega blazikens offensive tier still isn't overpowered, as it falls under the likes of mega medicham. however, i can see a bit of potential issue with the speed tier. at the same time, mega blaziken can be walled just like the rest of fighting. here's a few calcs for support.

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(ignore the 2kho, calc can't figure out that knock off makes bro lose it's item.)

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 156-184 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

these are just to name a few, there ARE common checks to blaziken.

one last quick comparison to mega blaziken

scarf darmanitan would be nearly identical to blaziken in terms of role. following this, there's a reason why darm isn't a staple, or to be honest, super common on fire. recoil damage. blaziken would not get any type of recovery, and this means at most, it could get 2-3 picks before dropping to recoil alone.

overall, i think it's time to call for a suspect on blaziken. in my personal opinion, regular blaziken is nowhere near broken, but there are good arguments for keeping out mega. please drop your opinions(and maybe even a like) on this counter-intuitive idea of NOT banning something on the forums.