How is this supposed to make it look not overpowered? It only shows that after a Swords Dance Mega Blaziken is able to OHKO some of it's best "counters" with a bit prior damage.
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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im not advocating for an unban of the mega. im presenting it how it is, regular blaziken im saying should be unbanned.
yea, i don't think fire would be overpowered with mega blaziken. honestly feel a little bad for you if you think one mon would completely change the type's viability lol. fighting is where i expressed my concern, and monotype doesn't allow complex bans. please use a bit of common sense, in that post i directly stated i saw issues on fighting.
lol, when did I stated such a thing?
I said that, and I reiterate, your argument that blaziken wouldn't be overpowered and can easily be walled is wrong.
You don't have to take my word for it though, here are a bunch of calcs showing just how this could be walled "just like the rest of fighting"
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 270-320 (83.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 356-421 (90.3 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 344-407 (97.1 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224 Def Mew: 421-497 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 494-582 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 335-395 (79.7 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 300-355 (87.4 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 374-442 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This are some of the sturdiest walls of monotype and they all crumble against a +2 Regular Blaziken after SR, some don't even need that. Only Hippo has a shot to survive after SR and he only needs a little damage to be reduced to ashes (which Fighting has Breloom for). Offensive checks fare no better:
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 156-185 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 144-172 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 172-203 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 285-335 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Azumarril can switch in once, if sun is up Blaziken wins since Aqua Jet doesn't OHKO, same for Scarf Landorus, which has the added weight of having to worry about losing it's Scarf if it switches into Knock Off (and thus will be 2HKOed next turn). Keldeo can't switch in, neither can Mega Pinsir, Victini, Alakazam, etc...
And even on top of that it would be the final nail on types already struggling to survive, how is Ice / Grass / Rock / Normal suppose to deal with it?
I said that, and I reiterate, your argument that blaziken wouldn't be overpowered and can easily be walled is wrong.
You don't have to take my word for it though, here are a bunch of calcs showing just how this could be walled "just like the rest of fighting"
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 270-320 (83.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 356-421 (90.3 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 344-407 (97.1 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224 Def Mew: 421-497 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 494-582 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 335-395 (79.7 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 300-355 (87.4 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 374-442 (88.4 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This are some of the sturdiest walls of monotype and they all crumble against a +2 Regular Blaziken after SR, some don't even need that. Only Hippo has a shot to survive after SR and he only needs a little damage to be reduced to ashes (which Fighting has Breloom for). Offensive checks fare no better:
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 156-185 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 144-172 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 172-203 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 285-335 (88.2 - 103.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Azumarril can switch in once, if sun is up Blaziken wins since Aqua Jet doesn't OHKO, same for Scarf Landorus, which has the added weight of having to worry about losing it's Scarf if it switches into Knock Off (and thus will be 2HKOed next turn). Keldeo can't switch in, neither can Mega Pinsir, Victini, Alakazam, etc...
And even on top of that it would be the final nail on types already struggling to survive, how is Ice / Grass / Rock / Normal suppose to deal with it?
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buddy, you make this way too easy for me lol.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 346-408 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 324-382 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
yes, blazizen IS like the rest of fighting. fighting type mons are powerful buddy, that's what makes hyper offense viable,,,,,,,,,
i'm pretty tired of you guys acting like the metagame has to be completely defensive oriented.
note:blazekin can very rarely sd on anything.
Who said that it had to be defensively oriented? I specifically put a list of offensive threats that Blaziken beats, it's like, right there in the second paragraph!
Mega Gallade doesn't get Speed Boost, it doesn't become harder to revenge kill the longer it's on the field, Blaziken walks all over offense as well as balance!
How do you suppose to revenge a Blaziken at +2 speed? At least in OU there was Talonflame but here we don't even have that, there are two viable users of Aqua Jet, two of ExtremeSpeed, one Aerialite Quick Attack, and Breloom for Match Punch. Unless you want your offensive teams to be forced to carry one of those then Blaziken can rip right through it, since even without set up it's still pretty strong. If it foregoes Swords Dance in favor of Protect to guarantee the Speed Boosts it then demolishes offense.
Mega Gallade doesn't get Speed Boost, it doesn't become harder to revenge kill the longer it's on the field, Blaziken walks all over offense as well as balance!
How do you suppose to revenge a Blaziken at +2 speed? At least in OU there was Talonflame but here we don't even have that, there are two viable users of Aqua Jet, two of ExtremeSpeed, one Aerialite Quick Attack, and Breloom for Match Punch. Unless you want your offensive teams to be forced to carry one of those then Blaziken can rip right through it, since even without set up it's still pretty strong. If it foregoes Swords Dance in favor of Protect to guarantee the Speed Boosts it then demolishes offense.
like i said, swords dance is situational. you can very rarely SD on anything, but you'd rather neglect arguement because it disproves everything you're saying.
anyway, offensively, blaziken is not unique. there are so many mons with over 120 base attack, i probably couldn't list them all. every single one of your calc is situational, and you're also neglecting recoil, which is one of the reasons darmanitan isn't as good either.
Darmanitan isn't as good because it doesn't have the moves to beat it's checks and counters, is weak to SR and it's slow.
Blaziken can use Swords Dance in many support pokemon, or by forcing a switch, cause, you know, Blaziken is actually pretty strong and you rather not lose a pokemon. Even if it doesn't use Swords Dance and instead chooses to run Protect (to guarantee Speed Boost) or Baton Pass (to pass those boosts to a teammate such as MegaHeracross) it's still destroying a whole playstyle.
Additionally Knock Off doesn't have recoil, and High Jump Kick only has it when it misses, which most of the time is because of hax and thus not a reliable strategy to get rid of Blaziken. Flare Blitz recoil also means that you've removed cause damage equal to triple the damage you've received, which often means you've knocked two mons and went down by weakening a third one. THAT IS AWESOME. If Blaziken managed to kill itself from recoil it most likely means that it has done a huge damage to the opposing team, specially if it's against an Ice / Grass / Normal team, which you still haven't answered me how are they gonna deal with blaziken.
Blaziken can use Swords Dance in many support pokemon, or by forcing a switch, cause, you know, Blaziken is actually pretty strong and you rather not lose a pokemon. Even if it doesn't use Swords Dance and instead chooses to run Protect (to guarantee Speed Boost) or Baton Pass (to pass those boosts to a teammate such as MegaHeracross) it's still destroying a whole playstyle.
Additionally Knock Off doesn't have recoil, and High Jump Kick only has it when it misses, which most of the time is because of hax and thus not a reliable strategy to get rid of Blaziken. Flare Blitz recoil also means that you've removed cause damage equal to triple the damage you've received, which often means you've knocked two mons and went down by weakening a third one. THAT IS AWESOME. If Blaziken managed to kill itself from recoil it most likely means that it has done a huge damage to the opposing team, specially if it's against an Ice / Grass / Normal team, which you still haven't answered me how are they gonna deal with blaziken.
ok. by ur logic, to have knock off, protect and sd, that leaves with you with one move left. you can't have everything on one set buddy. whether it's knock off/hjk, or knock off/flare blitz, they both get walled by something. just a matter of process of elimination lol
well since we're discussing Blaziken and how it somehow won't be broken in our meta right now.. let's take a look at it's movepool
Well, now that we got that out of the way; Blaziken has a pretty colorful set of moves available to it. Ranging from Swords Dance for wall breaking with it's powerful 120-130 BP STABs, Work Up for pulling off some astonishing mixed attacking, to even Focus Energy making those 'counters' say goodbye when you crit their face off with a High Jump Kick. Oh.. and did I mention Baton Pass?
But that's only the start of it. Blaziken can also status predicted switch ins, effectively getting rid of it's own counters at the cost of a move slot. Substitute further eases prediction and Protect guarantees Blaziken gets at least a boost off.
As for some of the calcs above.. I've never seen any Psychic player using 252 HP 252 Def Mew. Almost all of them if not all of them run speed, at the least running 108 and sometimes even enough to out speed Jolly Gyara-M. To add onto this; comparing Blaziken to Darmanitan is silly; Darmanitan needs a scarf to do anything. Blaziken has (or would have if it was to be unbanned) a scarf attached to it's ability, meaning it can run an item further increasing it's damage, or it's longevity.
Now, i know what you're thinking. 'But Fire already has wall breakers, what would 1 more hurt, especially one with Knock Off!' That's exactly the thing; Fire already has access to a myriad of different wall breakers, which already give many types a run for their money. Add in another one of those but with speed boost.. I don't believe it would be a pretty sight. Not to mention the amount of viable moves Blaziken has at it's disposal; I hear Genesect all over again. Also touching on the fact that you said recoil is a hindrance.. It is indeed, however, Blaziken has a ton of options (with pretty high base power, some with other secondaries) if recoil is that bad - - But if recoil makes a pokemon not broken, i'd like to see Charizard-X back in, because this sounds exactly like it.
I won't post any more calcs, as you guys seem to have done that (for the most part.. make sure you put the correct EV spreads or else it doesn't really count for much..)
Edit: I forgot to talk about the whole 'but every pokemon forces switches' thing; yes, every pokemon does force switches, Blaziken is no exception. The thing being.. Blaziken then gets a free (literally FREE) turn to boost not ONLY his speed, but potentially it's Offensive stats too..
Physical:
Brave Bird
Blaze Kick
Earthquake
Fire Punch
Flare Blitz
Knock Off
High Jump Kick
Poison Jab
Rock Slide
Stone Edge
Shadow Claw (lol)
Superpower
Thunderpunch
Feint (priority)
Quick Attack (priority)
Special:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Focus Blast
Overheat
Blast Burn
Vaccuum Wave (priority)
Boosting:
Agility (lol)
Bulk Up
Hone Claws
Power Up Punch
Swords Dance
Focus Energy
Work Up
Status:
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp
Baton Pass (didn't want to make a seperate category)
Protect (^likewise)
Roar (^likewise)
Substitute (sigh i guess i should've made a seperate category)
Brave Bird
Blaze Kick
Earthquake
Fire Punch
Flare Blitz
Knock Off
High Jump Kick
Poison Jab
Rock Slide
Stone Edge
Shadow Claw (lol)
Superpower
Thunderpunch
Feint (priority)
Quick Attack (priority)
Special:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Focus Blast
Overheat
Blast Burn
Vaccuum Wave (priority)
Boosting:
Agility (lol)
Bulk Up
Hone Claws
Power Up Punch
Swords Dance
Focus Energy
Work Up
Status:
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp
Baton Pass (didn't want to make a seperate category)
Protect (^likewise)
Roar (^likewise)
Substitute (sigh i guess i should've made a seperate category)
Well, now that we got that out of the way; Blaziken has a pretty colorful set of moves available to it. Ranging from Swords Dance for wall breaking with it's powerful 120-130 BP STABs, Work Up for pulling off some astonishing mixed attacking, to even Focus Energy making those 'counters' say goodbye when you crit their face off with a High Jump Kick. Oh.. and did I mention Baton Pass?
But that's only the start of it. Blaziken can also status predicted switch ins, effectively getting rid of it's own counters at the cost of a move slot. Substitute further eases prediction and Protect guarantees Blaziken gets at least a boost off.
As for some of the calcs above.. I've never seen any Psychic player using 252 HP 252 Def Mew. Almost all of them if not all of them run speed, at the least running 108 and sometimes even enough to out speed Jolly Gyara-M. To add onto this; comparing Blaziken to Darmanitan is silly; Darmanitan needs a scarf to do anything. Blaziken has (or would have if it was to be unbanned) a scarf attached to it's ability, meaning it can run an item further increasing it's damage, or it's longevity.
Now, i know what you're thinking. 'But Fire already has wall breakers, what would 1 more hurt, especially one with Knock Off!' That's exactly the thing; Fire already has access to a myriad of different wall breakers, which already give many types a run for their money. Add in another one of those but with speed boost.. I don't believe it would be a pretty sight. Not to mention the amount of viable moves Blaziken has at it's disposal; I hear Genesect all over again. Also touching on the fact that you said recoil is a hindrance.. It is indeed, however, Blaziken has a ton of options (with pretty high base power, some with other secondaries) if recoil is that bad - - But if recoil makes a pokemon not broken, i'd like to see Charizard-X back in, because this sounds exactly like it.
I won't post any more calcs, as you guys seem to have done that (for the most part.. make sure you put the correct EV spreads or else it doesn't really count for much..)
Edit: I forgot to talk about the whole 'but every pokemon forces switches' thing; yes, every pokemon does force switches, Blaziken is no exception. The thing being.. Blaziken then gets a free (literally FREE) turn to boost not ONLY his speed, but potentially it's Offensive stats too..
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Ok, the first thing to note here is that Life Orb blaziken is stronger than regular blaziken:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The second thing to note is that, as you can see from the calcs above, blaze sweeps psychic. If it gets +2 somewhere then better luck next time, and while offensive pressure can help against that things like Mew won't exactly be able to touch it (what's it gonna do, Knock off? Will-o-Wisp? lol). Now, Psychic is one of the best types right now, so the fact that a mon just straight-up sweeps is something I find somewhat worrying.
Now, Balto brought up a good point in that Mega Gallade is nearly as strong. But do you remember why Blaziken was banned? That's right, it's got speed boost. It's pretty much impossible to revenge kill without a priority user. Oh, and you thought Talon was OP? This thing sweeps bug, grass, rock, ice, psychic, steel, poison... Heck, you thought Azumarill was a counter? Think again:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 212-252 (70.4 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 530-627 (132.1 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Believe me, I was playing OU when this thing was around back then. It was banned at the same time as Deoxys-N, and I can't say that either one was more broken than the other. There were a small number of checks: Slowbro and Azumarill (for which it could run thunder punch, while knock off also KO'd the former), Talonflame (lol), occasional bulky mons that are still strong enough to OHKO such as defensive Lando-t or Dragonite (if blaze doesn't Stone edge as dnite comes in). You can also try playing around with protect or ghosts on HJK, but this is barely reliable.
As you can see, this list does not include one mon from every type. Basically, most types would have to sac a mon to paralyse it then KO with another, which isn't hugely healthy considering generally you can't get that mon in safely so you'll be sacing two mons. Other types simply never stood a chance.
tl;dr this thing is ridiculous.
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The second thing to note is that, as you can see from the calcs above, blaze sweeps psychic. If it gets +2 somewhere then better luck next time, and while offensive pressure can help against that things like Mew won't exactly be able to touch it (what's it gonna do, Knock off? Will-o-Wisp? lol). Now, Psychic is one of the best types right now, so the fact that a mon just straight-up sweeps is something I find somewhat worrying.
Now, Balto brought up a good point in that Mega Gallade is nearly as strong. But do you remember why Blaziken was banned? That's right, it's got speed boost. It's pretty much impossible to revenge kill without a priority user. Oh, and you thought Talon was OP? This thing sweeps bug, grass, rock, ice, psychic, steel, poison... Heck, you thought Azumarill was a counter? Think again:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 212-252 (70.4 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 530-627 (132.1 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Believe me, I was playing OU when this thing was around back then. It was banned at the same time as Deoxys-N, and I can't say that either one was more broken than the other. There were a small number of checks: Slowbro and Azumarill (for which it could run thunder punch, while knock off also KO'd the former), Talonflame (lol), occasional bulky mons that are still strong enough to OHKO such as defensive Lando-t or Dragonite (if blaze doesn't Stone edge as dnite comes in). You can also try playing around with protect or ghosts on HJK, but this is barely reliable.
As you can see, this list does not include one mon from every type. Basically, most types would have to sac a mon to paralyse it then KO with another, which isn't hugely healthy considering generally you can't get that mon in safely so you'll be sacing two mons. Other types simply never stood a chance.
tl;dr this thing is ridiculous.
Wat. Fire is not speed lackluster at all, sure it is not like speed monsters like electric or fighting, but its speed is ok for tier standards. Ghost is slow, Ground is slow, but fire is definitively not slow.Balto said:
Iirc Jellicent was a counter to it too, until people realized how good the buff of Knock off was and the pringles ghost got pwnd. Anyway I agree with u and with Gerard, don't bring that thing back to mono, is broken like sht.Articuno I said:
Fact: It literally 6-0 steel, grass, ice, ... monos
not trying to be a dick balto but like u saw all my posts about zard x on fire on this thread get deleted idk why you would even bring this up on here. After they all clearing had a problem with us going against the tiering philosophy. I mean trust me itd be fun af with that thing but its borked asf
At this point everyone is theory-moning with blaziken. Why don't you guys play some unrated games with it and share the replays? That would be a good starting point for everyone to build from.
Just make sure the replays provide a realistic picture of how it might be used.
Just make sure the replays provide a realistic picture of how it might be used.
Gr8 idea scp. I think a lot of people are theorymoning as well which is interesting since stats don't tell the full story[cough hoopa]
Also on mobile so I can't double post, but Articuno I i discussed this in previous posts. Acting like blazekin is the only mon that forces a sac(lol) is very interesting considering I could name off countless mons that do the same. The speed boost arguement is fair, but running protect / SD absolutely limits the coverage to two moves, which is oh so limited, assuming you can get an SD off in the first place lol. The last thing I want to bring up(which ive stressed a lot already) is that recoil+lo stacks on blaziken very easily, which you guys would see if you played some games with it.
note:DoW it's extremely unfair to compare blaziken In bw to how blaziken would do now, there's literally been 3 years difference
DoW
formally Death on Wings
It's not that Blaziken is very different from other mons such as M-Gallade in early turns, at all. I agree that M-Gallade and other mons are just as capable of punching holes in teams, cleaning late-game, etc., and that this is perfectly acceptable. However, the thing that stands out about Blaze is that it's vastly more difficult to revenge kill. No longer can you just run a scarf mon with a super effective move and suddenly that huge threat is dealt with. For example, Steel dislikes M-Gallade. But it still has mons that can outspeed m-gallade and KO it, so it's not going to sweep from turn 1. Blaziken is different, if it gets to +2 there's honestly not very much you're going to be doing to it other than mindgames with heatran's protect.
In terms of coverage, sure it can't use Knock Off / Stone Edge / Thunder Punch / Swords Dance / Substitute / Protect / Baton Pass alongside HJK/Flare blitz. But it doesn't need to. Frankly, Flare Blitz / HJK alone break Bug, Grass, Normal, Steel, Rock, Ice and Dark. Coverage is just to choose which other types you also beat.
I agree that we shouldn't be comparing it with Gen 5. That's why I haven't been comparing it with gen 5. If you look carefully, the only things I've referrenced have been early OU (which I played some of when it was still around), and similar mons that arguably you could compare it to. If we look at this, which McMeghan posted when it was first banned here though http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-ban-of-blaziken-and-deoxys-n.3492497/
Frankly, the vast majority of types are completely incapable of stopping this monster, while at the same time I see very little that it would add to the metagame.
I'm kinda confused what it wouldn't add? Most of the top types are so viable because of their cores, we've been in a defensive based meta game for 2 years, wouldn't you like to see some offense at the top?
As for bp( I don't remember who brought it up) bp clause limit it to just speed boost passes, and overall limits blazikens viability
Balto does have a point here, for the past 1-2 years, types have mostly focused on the balanced or defensive style for battles (flying, psychic, steel, normal, grass, water, fairy, poison, electric, ghost, and even ice), and a lot of those types had a pokemon that turned the type offensively which made battles super fun, and we only have a few offensive types and thats only because the pokemon retain to being offensive (Fighting, Dragon, Ground, fire, and at a point bug). Not saying the pokemon bans like Mega charizard x, greninja, and genesect made the types feel in a whole new level with the others pertaining to a whole new battle style. (not saying that you cant turn a defensive normal into a hyper offensive normal, but just the way the type feels and plays naturally). I hope gen 7 can introduce pokemon to flip back to our good old days of playing pokemon.
I don't know about you but I really prefer a meta where you can't just 2hko everything, and some of the types you said were balanced/defensive (flying, steel, ice, electric) can run ho successfully. just because thimo water, skarmdos, and skarmtran are good doesn't mean that the meta needs fixing or that ho needs a buff, it just means that balanced and defensive teams are better atm.
unbanning blazeitiken would make a buff to fire no doubt, but fire is already capable of succeeding in the meta, but it's just harder than spamming skarmdos. fire is a solid low-tier type with no matchups that are really autolose (besides dragon, which eats blazeitiken for lunch with multiscale dnite anyway). blazeitiken doesn't even help with ground, the other arguably autolose matchup, unless your opponent is brain dead and can't click eq and decides to sac hippo. it doesn't beat keldeo/terra unless you get a double protect, or if it's band/specsketeers, in which case fire's scarfers (rotom-h, victini) beat it anyway.
not talking about fighting, have not laddered seriously with it in a while.
"super fun" battles aren't needed for a good meta, and while i understand you're talking about offensive threats being banned more than defensive ones, unbanning uber offensive threats is not the way to balance this very balanced already meta that happens to favour balanced and defensive playstyles. I'd need to see some replays of blazeitiken doing something other than shitting on matchups that fire and fighting already shit on to even consider an unban.
It seems like you misinterpreted things a bit my dude, right now we're focusing primarily on blaziken in our discussions
Seems like it would be an interesting change to the current metagame but, the defensive playstyle in mono would remain the same and maybe even more so if ho gained more usage at the top resulting in forcing the other types to go more on the defensive side to cover their new weakness to a huge potential sweeper. However still seems like an interesting new topic and would like to see more opinions on it.
I agree with everything on this post, it rly isnt a bad idea, however I think your neglecting 1 thing, how it affects fighting. Without type bans, if we let it back in the meta, that means fighting gets it as well. This could potentially* be a disaster, because fighting has extremely high usage rn (to be exact #3, and with good reason). If we look at it on paper, they have anotherviable mega, which is a plus because the only other good ones are gallade and medicham. However, would it be broken? Even without mega, you can use it as a scout, and after a speed boost it ties with base 80 scarfers. It could potentially be hard to wall, because of its combo of stabs. Granted there are a select few mons such as hippowdon or bulk raptor that can wall it for the most part, but after that, that's about it. Especially as mega, on switchin it can easily 2ko skarmory. Granted steel already has a hard time against fighting, but blaziken would apply a lot more pressure. It would also give bug a lot of trouble, in that matchup it would just sweep, there isn't a lot you'd be able to do. So, idk, I'd say yea, we should try it if Type Only bans were a thing, however I don't think that would be the case, because the situation isn't as polarized. It would help fire a bunch especially in rock matchups, and having a reliable terrakion check (if mega), but at the same time, is it needed? That's debatable. For fighting, it really isnt, it could possibly make it the new best type, bc now theyll have a much easier time against bug and steel.hey guys, balto here. a lot of this forum has been super banhappy, so i wanted to bring a bit of an inverse arguement to the table. most of you probably don't know a whole lot about this topic unless you've been playing since b/w, so i'll break it down.
blaziken is a mon that never really had a shot in monotype. in gen 5, monotype followed the overused banlist, so naturally when blazekin was banned in overused, it was banned in mono as well. now, from my completely honest opinion, blazekin was not overpowered in the bw monotype metagame. however, that opinion is completely void and offers no actual insight to how blaziken would do in the current metagame, since we're about 3 years past that metagame.
so since we do have this huge periodical difference, let's analyze blazekin for a second. (the critical stats are highlighted)
hp:80
atk:120
def:70
sptk:110
spdf:70
spd:80
ability:speed boost
typing:fire/fighting
these stats basically reflect how well blaziken could play a mixed/physical/special speedboost user. this stands out especially on fire, because it's such a slow type. but would infernape be broken on fire?the easy answer, is no. the evidence lies with a mon that practically mirrors blazekin's offensive stats.
good ole infernape falls just short of blazekin's offensive stats, with a 104 in both special attack as well as regular attack. the difference between the two's stats, as well as infernape's current performance on fire, leads me to believe blaziken would provide a significant boost in speed, yet not an overpowered addition to fire.
honestly, i don't think it's necessary to write a whole lot about kin on fighting, it's not a very unique mon among fighting types other than speed boost. the only significant benefit to running blaziken would be a speed boost fire stab mon vs bug, which would be quite helpful. however, overall blaziken's speed, attack, and spatk tier are NOT unique among the other fighting types.
after quick thoughts, i have no doubt that blaziken wouldn't be overpowered in a monotype metagame.
note:bp wasn't covered due to the new baton pass clause(the reason i decided to write this up in the first place.)
the discussion doesn't end here though. there is one more aspect of blaziken that we didn't cover.
let's take a look at it's stats, shall we?(too lazy to type out)
once again, mega blaziken's offensive stats point towards a perfect speed boost user. i was curious how a long-time fire user would think about mega blaziken, so i asked my boy InsanityZenith his thoughts. here are a few logs of him explaining how mega blaziken would play out on fire.
iZenith: theres only 1 base 108 speed and 4 viable base 100 speed
iZenith:so speed boost would help there
iZenith:also for the speed thing, no priority other than mach/vacuum on ape, speed boost would help
fire's speed tier is lackluster compared to other types. that, in particular, is the main reason fire struggles in the metagame. drought is completely worthless if you're unable to match opposing speed tier.
iZenith:the speed would help with beating the keldeo/terrakion offensive core that just breaks fire if one of them is scarf
this one's pretty self explanatory. mega blaziken gives fire a chance against major threats, like keldeo and terrakion, and other fast threatening mons in general.
iZenith:no knock off on all of fire... having one would be nice
this one's also really self explanatory, blaziken/mega blaziken just opens up so many roles on fire.
now here's what makes me think that fire WOULDN'T be overpowered if mega blaziken was allowed. the simple reason is, it has to trade charizard y in order to use it. without it's primary sun mega, ninetales has a chance to shine. the great thing about mega blaziken on fire is that it would provide a new style to fire. post zard x ban, char y is literally the only viable mega on fire, and this same style of fire has been played since the beginning of XY.
when we take a look at fighting, this is where the unbiased side of me get's a bit concerned. mega blazikens offensive tier still isn't overpowered, as it falls under the likes of mega medicham. however, i can see a bit of potential issue with the speed tier. at the same time, mega blaziken can be walled just like the rest of fighting. here's a few calcs for support.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(ignore the 2kho, calc can't figure out that knock off makes bro lose it's item.)
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 156-184 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
these are just to name a few, there ARE common checks to blaziken.
one last quick comparison to mega blaziken
scarf darmanitan would be nearly identical to blaziken in terms of role. following this, there's a reason why darm isn't a staple, or to be honest, super common on fire. recoil damage. blaziken would not get any type of recovery, and this means at most, it could get 2-3 picks before dropping to recoil alone.
overall, i think it's time to call for a suspect on blaziken. in my personal opinion, regular blaziken is nowhere near broken, but there are good arguments for keeping out mega. please drop your opinions(and maybe even a like) on this counter-intuitive idea of NOT banning something on the forums.
Tl;Dr could be a great new addition, but may make fighting op w/o a type ban.
Edit: re-read the post, slowbro does wall it, but it's not like blaziken would do a ton against psychic. Same goes for ground.
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We won't be unbanning something simply to change up the orientation of the metagame. Unless defensive teams become too strong, there is nothing wrong with having a somewhat balance/defense oriented metagame. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of allowing Blaziken, but I'm only interested in whether or not it is still OP after all this time. If it is allowed back into the metagame, it will not be to buff Fire or Fighting or even hyper offense as a play style. It will only be re-introduced if it is decided that there is no legitimate reason for it to remain banned.
I'm not saying any of you have made those arguments. I'm just bringing this up now so that they are not brought up as arguments later.
After saying all that, I do admit the idea of Blaziken is intriguing and I'm willing to consider it, but we need to tread carefully with unbanning things. We don't need a repeat of Skymin and Kyurem-W.
Disclaimer: I am not speaking for the entire council. This is only my opinion at the moment.
I'm not saying any of you have made those arguments. I'm just bringing this up now so that they are not brought up as arguments later.
After saying all that, I do admit the idea of Blaziken is intriguing and I'm willing to consider it, but we need to tread carefully with unbanning things. We don't need a repeat of Skymin and Kyurem-W.
Disclaimer: I am not speaking for the entire council. This is only my opinion at the moment.
Unbanning Blaziken just doesnt seem viable for the meta as it is, its ability first off puts it at an advantage, with 2 speed boost its going to outspeed pretty much any scarf aside from base 108+, gaining two boosts is easy enough for a pokemon such as blaziken due to the pressure it causes, one simple switch in forcing the opponent out and either SD or attacking on the switch followed by a protect. Blaziken's Damage output is greatly enhanced with its two STABs at 120 and 130 base power respectively all of this backed by a base 120 attack stat. Then depending on what your team is struggling with the final move can be tailored to that need considering it has the likes of knock off, edgequake, thunder punch, brave bird and poison jab even quick attack for a priority kill makes blaziken versatile as well as strong, all of this is not factoring in the viability of mixed sets that could catch potential walls off guard(not that there are many). All of these factors make blaziken a threat to many teams, causing them to risk several mons in the attempt to take it out. overall i dont feel it would be a good idea to unban blaziken
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