Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[TheAce22]

hey guys, quick update.
ive been running games with several people on mega blaziken, here's an example replay with laxuy. so far mega blaze hasn't been a corebreaker on fire at all, let alone overpowered.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298099007
i understand i probably wasn't playing the best as i was more focused on getting blaze action the battle, and my team probably isn't the best either, but here's an example of how mega blaze does against the dark core.

I wouldnt call that replay valid.. First of all he toxiced you with Mega Sabeleye to help wear you down and thats not something that anyone is worrying about on Mega Sab, thats a very weird set, and also you then missed a HJK.. Also ye when you say you werent playing the best and were more focused on using blaze, you need to have good replays showcasing it, not just focusing on Blazekin and having replays like that.

Edit: If your going to have a good replay then get a good replay instead of having rushed one and against more generic sets would probably be better to show how it would really be doing

Edit 2(gdi;~;): One replay also doesn't mean that much, you should be getting multiple replays to really prove anything, bcuz like what happened in your other game, hax can happen and not have the replay showcase it very well

 

[Sabella]

Yea i think that was a pretty bad replay also blaz attacked maybe 3 times and wnded up killing itself. I think we should keep doing replays but post good ones

 

[Dece1t]

I'm gonna try and make a figniting team myself and see how much it would devistate with mega blaziken on board. Anyways in the meantime, we should get some valid evidence backing some of the claims made so far, i.e. Replays. Idk whether I support blaziken back or not, but I've been enjoying discussing the possibilities and what it could bring to the table. On paper, in the current meta it doesn't seem entirely op, for fire especially it could be rly helpful actually.

Edit: doing this just to make sure i don't post too much lol. I would say we should do a suspect test with it or that form of nature, but the Sablenite one just ended, in other words that may need to wait/have more valid support behind bringing it into the metagame. Btw let's try and be mature.

 

[TheAce22]

it was a good replay...the fucking point of that was to show blaze got walled pretty easily and worn down even easier.
i don't understand, am i supposed to just post replays of mega blaziken doing well????????????

No, lol. Post replays where ur facing normal sets in the metagame and your not losing the Pokemon your showcasing due to hax. If you had played that game well and didn't lost Mega Blaze because of a miss then it would of been valid, but your showcasing its weak because it can miss??

Edit: There was no reason to delete the posts balto/Whoever did, the posts show people if they want to try this out then theyll get better replays

 

[lax]

Hey, it's lax :P I have a nice replay for you guys with mega blaziken on fighting vs psychic

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298123421

A lot of things you guys mention confuses me. You're calcing +2 knock off from mega blaziken or regular on a slowbro. First of all, mega blaziken gets 4 moves like any other pokemon. With the +2 knock off calc that's two moves already taken plus the obligatory protect so that's 3. So you guys are saying you'd replace either flare blitz or highjumpkick to beat one specific type but lose one of its stabs? Not worth, in my opinion.

On a different note, I like that we, the mono com, are trying to introduce something into the meta instead of being ban happy like we usually are... I personally think it would be fun to test out mega blaziken in a suspect test as I don't see it as too broken.

 

[Balto]

hi guys, quick apology to TheAce22 and Sabella
im not going to be posting on the blaze topic anymore. i think i introduced my stance poorly from the start and i haven't explained things well since then.
i'll leave the blaziken OP up because i do like seeing blaziken discussion though, and will still continue to like/read.

 

[MZ]

Im back after 15 minutes (lol) with another battle: Blaz vs bug

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/origin-ubers-68908

No hax in the battle (except for the stone edge miss which didnt matter and the forrtress getting up rocks but got paralyzed which also didnt matter) and it was a current mega pinsir team thats really good right now. Mega blaziken didnt do much in the battle except take out forrtress and wither down volcarona, but that didnt matter anyways, because a mega pinsir came to easily come in and destroy the mega and the rest of my team, and this was on fighting, you'd expect mega blaziken to do something to a bug team, but nope, it did as much as the breloom lol.

Why would I expect a mega blaziken to do something to a team when it gets taken out by a focus sash volcarona? Mega Lucario or mega mewtwo y could lose to a sash volcarona, and they're still broken. Oh, and then obviously Blaziken won't sweep a team with Aerilate Quick Attack forcing it out. It might be worth testing in more games that more accurately show what it can do tbh, I just thought I'd point out that "oh look it died vs bug" isn't exactly right, with those particular circumstances it really doesnt mean that much

 

[MZ]

I just meant that *insert blaziken losing to sash mon here* doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know. But I did get off my ass and try it for a bit although I have to leave now.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298144629
Blaziken takes teams without things like random sash mons, mega pinsiresque priority, etc. and can do that. I'm not trying mega as I feel like the chances of that being balanced are even smaller, but still this is just a really effective cleaner versus offensive playstyles. I haven't had the opportunity to do much more testing, but I'm really confused on what's taking it on for, say, HO Psychic or something. It's got the power and speed to just blow through offense and severely reduce the viability of grass and bug at the very least, sorta missing the part where it's balanced (at least on paper for the most part)

 

[Rhalekin]

I just meant that *insert blaziken losing to sash mon here* doesn't really tell us anything we didn't know. But I did get off my ass and try it for a bit although I have to leave now.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298144629
Blaziken takes teams without things like random sash mons, mega pinsiresque priority, etc. and can do that. I'm not trying mega as I feel like the chances of that being balanced are even smaller, but still this is just a really effective cleaner versus offensive playstyles. I haven't had the opportunity to do much more testing, but I'm really confused on what's taking it on for, say, HO Psychic or something. It's got the power and speed to just blow through offense and severely reduce the viability of grass and bug at the very least, sorta missing the part where it's balanced (at least on paper for the most part)

Gonna be a little criticizy, well first the part about reducing viability of grass and bug, fire always has the upper chance to win against grass and bug,fighting can also win against grass, maybe but (if the opponent doesnt have mega-p or yanmega), so nothing will change that much. And the replay you showed, the guy could have made some smart decisions to reduce getting sweeped, but he CHOOSE to get sweeped by it. Also a regular blaziken with life orb does way more than mega, so it would be harder to balance the normal form than the mega from imo and its defenses arent that good.

We could have a plan where somebody gets with a partner and starts battling fighting and fire's weakness and see how much the type benefits from it, but it shouldnt benefit it from it too much, like fire getting some help to deal with rock and normal, but only slowly, as we are trying to introduce blaziken and see how it can work currently.

 

[MZ]

Gonna be a little criticizy, well first the part about reducing viability of grass and bug, fire always has the upper chance to win against grass and bug,fighting can also win against grass, maybe but (if the opponent doesnt have mega-p or yanmega), so nothing will change that much. And the replay you showed, the guy could have made some smart decisions to reduce getting sweeped, but he CHOOSE to get sweeped by it. Also a regular blaziken with life orb does way more than mega, so it would be harder to balance the normal form than the mega from imo and its defenses arent that good.

We could have a plan where somebody gets with a partner and starts battling fighting and fire's weakness and see how much the type benefits from it, but it shouldnt benefit it from it too much, like fire getting some help to deal with rock and normal, but only slowly, as we are trying to introduce blaziken and see how it can work currently.

Losing from team preview, which is what was pictured there, is different from choosing to lose to it, although point about fire already auto-winning vs grass taken. Still I don't see where HO has counterplay vs this thing

 

[ArkenCiel]

To bring us all in the same page, we're essentially discussing if Blaziken is now tame enough for Monotype. With access to a wide offensive movepool and Swords Dance (among other things), most would agree that Blaziken with Speed Boost is too overpowered by itself, however more people are more lenient towards it on Fire, while it is heavily antagonized on Fighting.

We're no longer doing type bans and since Fighting is the main problem type, I figured it was the best place to start because if it's overpowered on Fighting, then it's definitely not going to be unbanned. To do just that, see if it's overpowered, I've gone ahead and collected replays against some types of what I believe are the most important match-ups for Fighting to see how much of an effect Blaziken would have on the tier

Before I go on with the replays though, let me share the set I've been using on Blaziken so you could see where I'm coming from.

BlazikenCiel (Blaziken) @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Protect
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick

It's no doubt that +2 LO Blaziken is a powerhouse, but I personally don't think it needs Swords Dance because 1.) it's already plenty powerful, and 2.) set up opportunities are quite rare to come by with its less than stellar defensive typing and somewhat frail defenses. It would only be able to set up on complete utility mons, resisted moves locked by choice scarf, and the weakest of set up fodder. Flare Blitz, STAB fire move, 120 base power, should be self explanatory as an option. Protect lets Blaziken scout moves and stall a turn for Speed Boost to outpace a faster Pokemon while making it harder to revenge kill by means of outspeeding it. Knock Off for some coverage and utility, could be swapped for something else. High Jump Kick is another insanely powerful move, but since it is on a Fighting team, this can also be swapped for something else if needed.

Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Flying Blaziken had no effect in this battle; won, but it wasn't even sent out.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Ghost Blaziken dominates; overwhelms with pressure. The rest of the team cleans up after it eventually KO's itself -> recoil is literally the "counter" here.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Dragon Blaziken doesn't help much; could do damage, but can't significantly change the battle.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Psychic Blaziken helps a bit, but it's not too important in the match up. SD Blaziken can easily take the game vs. Psychic if it finds the opportunity though.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Water Blaziken doesn't make much of a difference here because of Gyarados.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Bug Blaziken can hurt things, but will eventually lose to Mega Pinsir. Terrakion will always be the hero here.

In a few of these instances, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, or Swords Dance could have really helped Blaziken shine, but it would have been nigh-useless in another match-up. Keep in mind that these replays are not representative of Blaziken's match-up against the entire type. There were other types I could have fought against, but I believe the outcome, win or loss, couldn't have been solely attributed to Blaziken anyway.

tl;dr Blaziken is powerful, but suffers from acute 4MSS, and it will naturally end up not contributing too much in another match up because of that.

Shoutout to SaNeski (x2), Argus2Spooky, and Lord B33 for lending me some of their time to help me test. Thanks to the other guys who helped me test too, but I don't know your Smogon names.

 

[Dece1t]

Hey guys, I just wanted to showcase a set rly quick that I came up with. Banded Blaziken. So what can you get with it compared to LO Blaziken?

Pros: Allows an extra coverage move, more power with no recoil each turn, hard to determine set (from the opponent's side), if played right can last in a battle longer, perfect neutral coverage with both HJK and Brave Bird alone
Cons: Choice locked, lacks protect

I'll give the set I've been running, explain everything, as well as provide some replays.

Blaziken @ Choice Band
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick
- High Jump Kick
- Brave Bird / Thunder Punch / Earthquake
- Knock Off

Set Details: This is meant to be a wallbreaker, who gets harder to revenge kill every passing turn. Flare Blitz is the preferred STAB as you don't have the extra LO recoil wearing it down, and it's a lot stronger. HJK as the obvious fighting STAB, kinda self explanitory. The 3rd slot you got options, I like to use Brave Bird so I don't get hard walled by Mega Venusaur (252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Knock Off is a great utility move, and helps you do same damage yo psychic.

Additional Comments: This set is great for Mega Sableye, who constantly gives Fighting teams problems, and Flare Blitz is a clean 2KO, and it's immune to WoW. Fighting is already full of sweepers that can clean late game, including having one of the best ones in the game, Terrakion. This Blaziken set is super helpful to clear pesky walls, and allow the rest of the team to finish up. However, if your smart and allow it to accumulate boosts (ex: Sending it in to take out a weakened mon, get the free speed boost, and sweep), it can wreck havoc.

Replays

Vs Flying
Vs Steel
Vs Grass (Misplayed towards the end, but shows how Blaziken does as a Mega Venu Check)
Vs Dark
Vs Fairy (Fairy has barely any problems with it here, but Blaziken does prove to be a potent wallbreaker)
More replays coming soon (struggling to get good ones)

Many thanks to TheThorn for help with a lot of the replays, and .Rawr! for inspiring the idea.

 

[Day Healer]

Props to you Stun. Happy you liked the banded Blaze idea :3

@ ArkenCiel: I think this is other replay of yours too: Psychic vs Fighting. Blaze can find setup chances again mew or choice locked mons (victini in this case) so it can start a sweep (a +2 chicken OHKOes every psychic with knock off). So yeah, blaziken have the potential to be decisive again psychics

 

[Thimo]

People forget blaziken also has a nice SpA stat. Leaving mixed as something you need to check too if this thing gets unbanned.

 

[Dece1t]

People forget blaziken also has a nice SpA stat. Leaving mixed as something you need to check too if this thing gets banned.

You honestly could run fire blast or flamethrower, to negate contact damage (rocky helmet/rough skin/iron barbs)/flare blitz recoil.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I think most of us can agree Blaziken wouldn't be a terrible addition to Fire teams, it's fighting that a lot of us are concerned about. If you think about it for a moment (theory-moning), if you were to run Mega, you would have a great fast sweeper with nice offensive typing. It 2ko's skarm on swicth in, so you wouldn't have to rely on Infernape or Keldeo so much, and it helps against bug as well (helps as in probably demolishing), but you have a soft check to Yanmega (whose been rising in popularity since the Genesect ban). However, with running a mega, you lose out on the amazing natural bulk of Gallade, and the immediate wallbreaking power of Medicham, plus Mega Venusaur becomes more of a problem. If you don't run mega, you do have a bit more power thanks to life orb, but with only 1 speed boost with an adamant nature, your not outspeeding much until you get another boost. In a sense it is debatable, could potentially be a great sweeper, but it does have its minuses.

Based on what was just said, I think we should try to play with it on fighting against various types, and see how much harm it would do, it wouldn't hurt to at least toy with it.

(Btw, lets ditch the SD argument, because when is it gonna be able to set up, and what move would you replace for it? It doesn't have great defensive typing, so a lot of common typed attacks can take it out, and for SD, you'd probably replace knock off or protect, both are fairly needed for its overall success.)

Edit: it also brings the niche of a nice WoW absorber, so you wouldn't have to rely on Conk, Heracross, or statusing your keldeo.

So, I assume that you guys are talking about Mega Blaziken, and it's (hypothetical) role in Monotype.
To be completely honest, I don't really have much of an opinion on this, but I can't see it being too overpowered. It would give Fighting a chance against weaker Fairies (i guess).

What is your opinion on this?

Edit: 200th Post!

 

[Rhalekin]

To bring us all in the same page, we're essentially discussing if Blaziken is now tame enough for Monotype. With access to a wide offensive movepool and Swords Dance (among other things), most would agree that Blaziken with Speed Boost is too overpowered by itself, however more people are more lenient towards it on Fire, while it is heavily antagonized on Fighting.

We're no longer doing type bans and since Fighting is the main problem type, I figured it was the best place to start because if it's overpowered on Fighting, then it's definitely not going to be unbanned. To do just that, see if it's overpowered, I've gone ahead and collected replays against some types of what I believe are the most important match-ups for Fighting to see how much of an effect Blaziken would have on the tier

Before I go on with the replays though, let me share the set I've been using on Blaziken so you could see where I'm coming from.

BlazikenCiel (Blaziken) @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Protect
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick

It's no doubt that +2 LO Blaziken is a powerhouse, but I personally don't think it needs Swords Dance because 1.) it's already plenty powerful, and 2.) set up opportunities are quite rare to come by with its less than stellar defensive typing and somewhat frail defenses. It would only be able to set up on complete utility mons, resisted moves locked by choice scarf, and the weakest of set up fodder. Flare Blitz, STAB fire move, 120 base power, should be self explanatory as an option. Protect lets Blaziken scout moves and stall a turn for Speed Boost to outpace a faster Pokemon while making it harder to revenge kill by means of outspeeding it. Knock Off for some coverage and utility, could be swapped for something else. High Jump Kick is another insanely powerful move, but since it is on a Fighting team, this can also be swapped for something else if needed.

Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Flying Blaziken had no effect in this battle; won, but it wasn't even sent out.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Ghost Blaziken dominates; overwhelms with pressure. The rest of the team cleans up after it eventually KO's itself -> recoil is literally the "counter" here.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Dragon Blaziken doesn't help much; could do damage, but can't significantly change the battle.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Psychic Blaziken helps a bit, but it's not too important in the match up. SD Blaziken can easily take the game vs. Psychic if it finds the opportunity though.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Water Blaziken doesn't make much of a difference here because of Gyarados.
Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Bug Blaziken can hurt things, but will eventually lose to Mega Pinsir. Terrakion will always be the hero here.

In a few of these instances, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, or Swords Dance could have really helped Blaziken shine, but it would have been nigh-useless in another match-up. Keep in mind that these replays are not representative of Blaziken's match-up against the entire type. There were other types I could have fought against, but I believe the outcome, win or loss, couldn't have been solely attributed to Blaziken anyway.

tl;dr Blaziken is powerful, but suffers from acute 4MSS, and it will naturally end up not contributing too much in another match up because of that.

Shoutout to SaNeski (x2), Argus2Spooky, and Lord B33 for lending me some of their time to help me test. Thanks to the other guys who helped me test too, but I don't know your Smogon names.

Good post to show how we can bring back blaziken into this meta.


But on the note, even though this is off topic, what made Greninja broken in oras? In XY, it was perfectly fine, than all of a sudden, gunk shot comes in and its a huge threat all of a sudden. This doesnt really make some sense to me as 1 move shouldnt determine a pokemon viability. I mean if protean wasnt as bad in XY, what was wrong with greninja currently?

 

[Day Healer]

Good post to show how we can bring back blaziken into this meta.

I dont think ArkenCiel replays show which Blaze can be reintroduced, if all them show Blaziken can potentially sweep teams all alone (psychic and ghost replays), while doing bad again dragons and water, becos dragons dont give it setup chances, and water having most of its counters (azumarill, gyarados, swim swifters)
Anyway, i could still like to see how it does again decent steel/grass/ice teams (no that it could change much fighting vs ice matchup, but its worth the test)

But on the note, even though this is off topic, what made Greninja broken in oras? In XY, it was perfectly fine, than all of a sudden, gunk shot comes in and its a huge threat all of a sudden. This doesnt really make some sense to me as 1 move shouldnt determine a pokemon viability. I mean if protean wasnt as bad in XY, what was wrong with greninja currently?

Greninja gained both Gunk Shot and Low Kick in Oras, so lowering a lot the number of counters it had, just to show some calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 361-429 (91.8 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Also, greninja can even afford to not run its water/dark stabs, becos every move it run is literally stab, so you can pick what you team needs. Anyway this is the set which made it broken iirc (there was other set with choice scarf but life orb is more threatening)

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Extrasensory
- Ice Beam / Hydro Pump

 

[Josh]

I cant believe people are entertaining the thought of unbanning Greninja lol. It's more broken in mono than it is in OU lmao. Nothing good can come from giving 2 top 5 types, Water and Dark, a pokemon that can change its type. It can give Dark and Water a mon of pretty much any type it wants. In OU it outpaces most of the meta, and changes its type at will. With coverage bordering Greninja level and STAB on all of it, the ability to run physical, special or mixed sets, and the ability to flat out ignore monotype's definition due to Protean, this thing is just way too much.

Blaziken is at least SLIGHTLY reasonable. In The Immortal s meta, no status, when it was OMOTM a few months back I was one of the top players. Blaziken was tested down from Ubers, with the logic that without protect, sub, sd and baton pass not only was it not broken but it was actually pretty shitty. This made me want to try it in standard OU, so I played some games vs friends with it and it seemed decent, but balanced. I'd argue it could be unbanned there but I don't think OU community will agree. Blaziken is power as fuck, but it wears itself down extremely quickly and has a lot of reliable answers.

Now in mono it's obviously different than OU. Being bound to a small pool of options that are of one typing closes the door to countering some beasts. I don't think Blaziken should be unbanned at all right now, but if I see some legit replays with good gameplay showing bug, grass, steel, ghost, ice (though tbf fighting wind anyways, fire can lose tho), dark and normal (fighting still wins thw matchup but blaze will ruin normals chance tbh) beating or close to beating solid fighting teams (not specific counter teams on either side lol) with blaziken I'd potentially change my opinion. As of now I'm fairly sure all of those types listed get flat out destroyed by blaziken, short of stupidly specific cteams. Normal can't even use Ditto effectively, both because of the sub blaziken variant and the fact that both knock off and flare Blitz wouldnt do much and blaziken can just protect to scout for HJK.

 

[Rhalekin]

I dont think ArkenCiel replays show which Blaze can be reintroduced, if all them show Blaziken can potentially sweep teams all alone (psychic and ghost replays), while doing bad again dragons and water, becos dragons dont give it setup chances, and water having most of its counters (azumarill, gyarados, swim swifters)
Anyway, i could still like to see how it does again decent steel/grass/ice teams (no that it could change much fighting vs ice matchup, but its worth the test)


Greninja gained both Gunk Shot and Low Kick in Oras, so lowering a lot the number of counters it had, just to show some calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 361-429 (91.8 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Also, greninja can even afford to not run its water/dark stabs, becos every move it run is literally stab, so you can pick what you team needs. Anyway this is the set which made it broken iirc (there was other set with choice scarf but life orb is more threatening)

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick
- Extrasensory
- Ice Beam / Hydro Pump

Your logic is kinda flawed, since 1. Mostly Everybody used special greninja, not full attack greninja so gunk shot should be 4- Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 2. low kick was a uncommon move on greninja since dark and water didnt really need a pokemon with low kick as seen by the 15% and 14% on the move usage for greninja on both dark and water, 4- Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 150-176 (21.3 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO. "Also, greninja can even afford to not run its water/dark stabs, becos every move it run is literally stab, so you can pick what you team needs" If thats the case, why wasnt it banned during XY, you arent giving good explanation to this.

 

[Rhalekin]

I cant believe people are entertaining the thought of unbanning Greninja lol. It's more broken in mono than it is in OU lmao. Nothing good can come from giving 2 top 5 types, Water and Dark, a pokemon that can change its type. It can give Dark and Water a mon of pretty much any type it wants. In OU it outpaces most of the meta, and changes its type at will. With coverage bordering Greninja level and STAB on all of it, the ability to run physical, special or mixed sets, and the ability to flat out ignore monotype's definition due to Protean, this thing is just way too much.

Blaziken is at least SLIGHTLY reasonable. In The Immortal s meta, no status, when it was OMOTM a few months back I was one of the top players. Blaziken was tested down from Ubers, with the logic that without protect, sub, sd and baton pass not only was it not broken but it was actually pretty shitty. This made me want to try it in standard OU, so I played some games vs friends with it and it seemed decent, but balanced. I'd argue it could be unbanned there but I don't think OU community will agree. Blaziken is power as fuck, but it wears itself down extremely quickly and has a lot of reliable answers.

Now in mono it's obviously different than OU. Being bound to a small pool of options that are of one typing closes the door to countering some beasts. I don't think Blaziken should be unbanned at all right now, but if I see some legit replays with good gameplay showing bug, grass, steel, ghost, ice (though tbf fighting wind anyways, fire can lose tho), dark and normal (fighting still wins thw matchup but blaze will ruin normals chance tbh) beating or close to beating solid fighting teams (not specific counter teams on either side lol) with blaziken I'd potentially change my opinion. As of now I'm fairly sure all of those types listed get flat out destroyed by blaziken, short of stupidly specific cteams. Normal can't even use Ditto effectively, both because of the sub blaziken variant and the fact that both knock off and flare Blitz wouldnt do much and blaziken can just protect to scout for HJK.

Nobody has thoughts of unbanning greninja. My thought is from there was really no difference from oras and xy. OU and Monotype apparently considered it stable since they never banned it or suspected it, and than oras came in, introduced 1-2 moves, and everybody went batshit insane to ban it. I question this, as too why? What was so different, there has to be some meaning if it really was broken or not. Protean isnt as bad as speed boost, at least a reliable scarf can revenge kill it.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Rhalekin It was already on the border, but then Greninja received even more things to check things with. In OU, it was described something like having the potential to break everything and you don't know which of your Pokemon can actually check it until your opponent's moveset is revealed, which could be after you've already lost critical Pokemon that you actually needed in order to win. In Monotype, the reasoning was more like "it can literally pick which types it counters." It was a little more bearable on Dark because its moveset was somewhat more predictable there, but it was still deemed too strong. The fact that it was a new Pokemon played a role in its delayed banishment as people were still trying to figure it out and whatnot. The added weapons in ORAS helped focus the attention on Greninja.

I don't think Blaziken should be unbanned at all right now, but if I see some legit replays with good gameplay showing bug, grass, steel, ghost, ice (though tbf fighting wind anyways, fire can lose tho), dark and normal (fighting still wins thw matchup but blaze will ruin normals chance tbh) beating or close to beating solid fighting teams (not specific counter teams on either side lol) with blaziken I'd potentially change my opinion. As of now I'm fairly sure all of those types listed get flat out destroyed by blaziken, short of stupidly specific cteams. Normal can't even use Ditto effectively, both because of the sub blaziken variant and the fact that both knock off and flare Blitz wouldnt do much and blaziken can just protect to scout for HJK.

Joshz If it's just fighting teams in question, I don't think it's fair to include Ice, Normal, and Dark because without Blaziken, these types already struggle too much against Fighting. Steel won't have a stable check. As it stands, Steel has plenty of anti-fighting tools, but with Flare Blitz+HJK+Protect+Speed Boost, usual checks to Infernape, which only lacks Speed Boost when compared to Blaziken, are out the window. Bug with Mega-Pinsir + Sticky Web still takes care of Fighting quite easily, I actually have a replay of that in an earlier post of mine. Ghost will lose more times than it will win against a Blaziken with Knock Off, I have a replay of that too on my post. Grass will be a meh-match up. I think Whimsicott, Venusaur, and Breloom can stand to check Blaziken. I'll get a replay for Steel and Grass soon, so we can all get a clearer picture.

Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Steel Fighting offers immense pressure at the start; Blaziken can break any single mon as it's sent out. A bad guess (replay) can pay off, but the Steel user will generally be in the worse spot.

Fighting w/ Blaziken vs. Grass Grass can fend for itself. Brave Bird could help, but still won't sweep unimpeded with recoil. With only 4 slots, Brave Bird would have to replace Knock Off (or whatever filler you have) making your Psychic/Ghost match up weaker (or whatever you tried to accommodate for prior to that).

Shout-out to Rhalekin for helping me test!

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Wait, this chat has been talking about Blaziken-Mega and Greninja potentially being unbanned from Monotype?

Let's start with Greninja. It has an expansive movepool, which makes it slightly hard to predict. It also gets STAB on all moves and gains the typing of them, potentially allowing to check entire opponent Monotype Teams (Mono. Type.). On Dark, it gave Fairies something to worry about with a STAB Gunk Shot tearing through their most seasoned walls, like Clefable, Togekiss, and even Azumarill. It's ability to change type at any moment has been one of the main factors which is securing it's comfy seat in Ubers. Greninja was banned relatively recently, so I don't think that is an appropriate time to bring up discussion such as this.
Greninja is more broken in Monotype than it is in OU, because all Monotypes have at least one barring weakness by default. This makes it easier for Greninja to check and kill threats, although it's non-existent bulk means it's still going to be 3HKO'd or 2HKO'd by "not very effective..." moves anyway.

Blaziken-Mega shouldn't be unbanned, at least for now. It has a diverse physical and special movepool, so like Greninja, it's a little bit of a chameleon. Blaziken-Mega would give Fighting a high chance of winning or sweeping against Grass. It's STAB Fire moves would rip through all Grass Pokemon but Cradily, Mega Venusaur, and Sash Breloom. Brave Bird can 2HKO Mega Venusaur, making lubrication with less tension( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). Whimsicott cannot switch in or take a hit from Blaziken-Mega, but can use its troll set or even an offensive set to deal some decent damage. As ArkenCiel said, if you get Brave Bird, you lose Knock Off, making Ghost have a fighting chance.

As I am typing this, I realize that I am inadvertently borrowing aspects from other users. Sorry. But the point is that both are way too overpowered for Monotype. Greninja is super-versatile, and takes advantage of the very concept of Monotype itself to sweep and check teams. Blaziken-Mega has awesome offensive presence and can Pass speed onto a teammate like Terrakion and Heatran to have a sweep. As each generation provides a power creep, I guess there will be a time where these Pokemon will not be as good as they used to. But not now.

 

[SirSkit]

Wait, this chat has been talking about Blaziken-Mega and Greninja potentially being unbanned from Monotype?

Whoa there, before we head off on a Greninja tangent, let's be clear that no one is talking about about banning Greninja ;w;. They're just talking about how the transition from XY to ORAS affected its ban/"brokenness".

Anyways, with Blaziken, my main concern about unbanning it is how the combination of Speed Boost + Protect prevents opposing teams from revenge killing it with a Choice Scarf/Fast Pokemon, which is the usual, reliable way of removing things that potentially sweep your type. This forces teams to just allow it to weaken itself by making it Flare Blitz constantly and deal it with it from there recoil damage or priority, or by attempting to tank an Adamant, Life Orb-boosted, attack and KO back. I'm also wondering how Blaziken could be possibly less broken than it was in OU (broken enough to be quickbanned, iirc). I know that OU and Monotype are vastly different, but with the exception of simple Stealth Rock support, which both Fire and Fighting provide decently enough, Blaziken sweeps almost independently mid/late-game, especially against types weak to its STABs. However, Blaziken's acute 4 moveslot syndrome and frailty makes it easier to handle, and I can't help but think that Blaziken's intimidating Uber status tends to make us blow its power out of proportion. Currently, I'm still supportive of at least suspecting it since its affect on the tier is still very unclear to many of us at this point.

 

[terrors]

So since Arken provided us some replays of Blaziken on fighting, I managed to get some of Blaziken on Fire. I'm pretty sure almost everyone is more concerned about Blaziken on Fighting but that doesn't mean being on fire makes it any less of a threat. It was pretty hard to get good replays and I didn't get as many as I would've liked but I'll try to update the list as soon as I can.

Blaziken on fire is basically a better version of Infernape however, without priority (unless you're real enough to use vacuum wave Blaziken) A few points I noticed about it that either hold it back or make it overpowered are listed below:

Pros:

• One thing that makes Blaziken stand out between late game cleaners is speed boost. If it can come in to get a kill vs a weakened Pokemon and get a free speed boost, it can be hard to stop.
• Blaziken's offensive stats make it an extremely efficient wallbreaker also having access to great coverage. Between Flare Blitz, High Jump Kick, Brave Bird, Stone Edge, Knock Off, and even Thunder Punch, it has few counters. This aspect resembles Hoopa-U.
• Life Orb Blaziken does not take a mega slot. This allows threats like Mega Gallade and Mega Medicham (on fighting) and Mega Charizard Y (on fire) to be used alongside it. Combinations like those are a bit too much for some types.

Cons:

• Slapping a Life Orb on a Pokemon comes with a price, hence its name. The recoil that Blaziken experiences usually takes it out early. It barely ever manages to find set up opportunities.
• While Blaziken may have excellent coverage, a Pokemon can only have 4 moves. It suffers from 4MSS (4 Move-Slot Syndrome)

Now, with that out of the way, let's have a look at the set I used on Fire:

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Protect
- High Jump Kick

I went for SD + Knock Off which puts a huge dent on Psychic teams, if not sweeping them single-handedly. HJK provides a strong STAB and I opted for no Flare Blitz because this is a fire team anyway and, again, it suffers from 4MSS.

Replays with it:

Psychic (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298683314) This is a prime example of how even SD + Knock Off Blaziken can be stopped in its tracks. Colbur Berry Slowbro lets Psychic not only deal with Blaziken but countless other threats including Bisharp. This replay proves that one item can be enough to deal with even uber level threats.

Rock (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298685342) This replay speaks otherwise. The core between Charizard Y and Blaziken is too much to handle for rock teams, a type which is supposed to have advantage vs fire. I understand I ended up losing but that was because of a misclick and I wasn't paying attention x_x. The point remains that I would've won if not for the misclick and if we need to rely on misclicks to win, I don't think its wise to let this monster out.

Flying (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298689698) Blaziken had next to no use in this matchup. The result would've been the same even if I didn't have Blaziken.

Steel (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298692124) Blaziken put in a lot of work in this match and would've possible swept if I didn't miss HJK. It kinda adds to the fact that it dies to recoil quickly but trust me its seriously hard to find replays with no hax involved.

I'm trying to find a good replay vs Normal and Grass. Normal seems like a matchup in Fire's favour utterly because of Blaziken while Grass is a steamroll anyway but I want to see how much Blaziken helps.

TL;DR: Some of the replays prove that it wouldn't be that disastrous to give it a try (see the replay vs Psychic) while the replay vs Rock shows how broken it can get. Forgive me if I made some bad plays while using Fire but its my first time using the type so I'm not the greatest with it.

Shoutout to ArkenCiel and dusk raimon for helping me get the replays :D.