I was running a few matches which werent the best but from the matches i did find some interesting things such as the SD knock off one shotting all of psychic with a boost which is easy to get when setting up on the mew, the fact that even great physical walls cant swap in, in one of the matches blaziken had the potential to 2shot hippowdon, which means it cant really swap in. while i still find it to be a very broken mon, my initial analysis of it was a bit of an over estimation
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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Alright I'm seeing some Blaziken discussion and you guys know I gotta get some of this.
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off / Baton Pass
- Protect
This is for Fire btw.Gonna post some replays with Blaziken in my team.You guys can discuss about it and have your own opinions about it:
Vs. Dark (Clearly)
Vs. Psychic (TheThorn)
Vs. Fighting (Wyngate)
Vs. Fire (Thimo)
Now, I wanna say something about Blaziken.It has somewhat the same problem as Greninja,The 4 Move problem. It can only run 4 moves,in which High Jump Kick,Protect is practically a must.That leaves it with just 2 more slots.Flare Blitz is a nice stab while theres also Knock Off for coverage or something I like more like Baton Pass (Credit to Wyngate for telling me about it).
I'll post some more replays about it when I get time.
Also, thanks to Clearly , TheThorn , Wyn and ThimoTheUltimateBOBO for helping me with the replays
EDIT: Wyngate made a sick Fire team as well which I think you guys should see.Here's a replay against Booty with Wyngate using Fire and Booty using Ground:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-297636104
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off / Baton Pass
- Protect
This is for Fire btw.Gonna post some replays with Blaziken in my team.You guys can discuss about it and have your own opinions about it:
Vs. Dark (Clearly)
Vs. Psychic (TheThorn)
Vs. Fighting (Wyngate)
Vs. Fire (Thimo)
Now, I wanna say something about Blaziken.It has somewhat the same problem as Greninja,The 4 Move problem. It can only run 4 moves,in which High Jump Kick,Protect is practically a must.That leaves it with just 2 more slots.Flare Blitz is a nice stab while theres also Knock Off for coverage or something I like more like Baton Pass (Credit to Wyngate for telling me about it).
I'll post some more replays about it when I get time.
Also, thanks to Clearly , TheThorn , Wyn and ThimoTheUltimateBOBO for helping me with the replays
EDIT: Wyngate made a sick Fire team as well which I think you guys should see.Here's a replay against Booty with Wyngate using Fire and Booty using Ground:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-297636104
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Physical Tyranitar
formerly Marquis of Blaze
Ok, thanks for the clarification...
From what ive seen and personal experience, people are argueing that blaziken could be helpful on fire but be broken on fighting, except its the reverse, ive seen that blaziken is more balanced on fighting than fire.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298684881 Heres a replay of rock vs fire. As you can see here, blaziken utterly destroys and sweeps rocks, the battler is really scared for his outcome and moves because a high jump kick annihilates everything, as seen in turn 18, a high jump kick kos a 302 defense diancie and its not even super effective.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298688655 Heres a replay of dragon vs fire. Nothing changed here, blaziken couldnt do anything really, since most of the pokemon walled it, and some came back to revenge kill it with priority.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298684881 Heres a replay of rock vs fire. As you can see here, blaziken utterly destroys and sweeps rocks, the battler is really scared for his outcome and moves because a high jump kick annihilates everything, as seen in turn 18, a high jump kick kos a 302 defense diancie and its not even super effective.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298688655 Heres a replay of dragon vs fire. Nothing changed here, blaziken couldnt do anything really, since most of the pokemon walled it, and some came back to revenge kill it with priority.
Don't agree with 2/3. Fighting loses the matchup overall to Dark as it stands now, because of how much it struggles with ttar + msab + bird core. Normal, yeah fighting wins the MU, but Normal still has a very solid chance of winning. Ditto, p2 and raptor/pidge are capable of beating fighting pretty conistently. Blaziken breaks this very easily, because it can protect and proceed to outspeed pidge, and as I said Ditto (normals best way of taking on fighting) can't even take on blaziken.
No offense to the guy using fighting but he played very poorly. This game shouldn't have been as close as it was at all.
Again, no disrespect, but the gameplay is just bad. Blaziken was his wincon, and he sacked it for no reason. And btw, no I am not saying noth aving Brave Bird is bad, running Brave Bird is not standard and would be team specific.
I really doubt that guy has any experience with fighting. Its not a personal shot, but I'm just saying it doesn't really show much. I'm going to get some replays myself and post them if I have time. In the mean time, here are 3 from this thread I thought were really good examples (you're in some kek).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298688655
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-298684881
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-297636104
Yeah, Dark and Normal definitely have their winning chances. I've been on both ends when using those types, but with how the stats are where the Fighting win rate for is 65% at the very least against Dark, Normal, and Ice, I just felt like you were setting the bar too high for all those types. I can still see Dark winning the match up, but it's a lost cause for Normal unless I bring my Audino-mega which I built out of spite. Not sure if you'd let me use that, but that'd be Normal's answer.
To the Fighting v Steel replay, I don't know about saying it was "close" since it was a 4-0 after all, and unless I got every double and Protect read right as a Steel user, there was just no way.
To the Fighting v Grass replay, he said he was curious to see the damage, which wasn't advisable, true, but he felt it was already over at that point too, blaming Whimsicott.
I'm just as curious as you to find out if Blaziken belongs to the tier or not (I'd really like it in OU so it can just literally rip stall apart), so I'll be getting plenty of Fighting match ups tomorrow, and hopefully they can showcase Blaziken's worth properly.
is blaziken being unbanned? I'm down for it, it's not like its difficult to ban it again if it turns out to be broken xd
I don't have the replay but some1 was asking me to do ubers match for mono so they could try blaziken and i won using steel psychic and flying, so the man using blaziken lost 3 times it dosent really seem to be any more "OP" then scolipede is. xd
note: I haven't read any of the thread
I don't have the replay but some1 was asking me to do ubers match for mono so they could try blaziken and i won using steel psychic and flying, so the man using blaziken lost 3 times it dosent really seem to be any more "OP" then scolipede is. xd
note: I haven't read any of the thread
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Alright,this replay shows the difference between a good battler and a relatively average battler.If you look at the replay,the Rock user "RoseX" (not sure who it is) could have easily made some better plays there but didn't.Any good battler would have made those plays and who knows,maybe the outcome wouldn't be the same.So I think that replay shouldn't really be considered in all seriousness.
Now as promised,I've returned with more replays!Still using this set:
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off / Baton Pass
- Protect
Vs. Ground (Sandman619)
Vs. Flying (Sandman619)
Vs. Water (rnbs)
Vs. Dragon (rnbs)
Vs. Fairy (rnbs)
I kinda lost in every single match up because I'm trash at this tier but hey!Fire already loses to these so its okay right? Now I don't think Blaziken should be banned,while it does Speed Boost,it's average bulk unlike Mega-Blaziken really tones down the pokemon.Again, High Jump Kick can not be spammed against every type,which means Flare Blitz is the next option.Flare Blitz is a recoil move which can not really be spammed.Life Orb + Recoil of Flare Blitz hurts Blaziken way too much.Now I wouldn't advise straight up unbanning it,rather have a suspect test although even suspect tests in monotype aren't really good as people are way too bias about it.
Again,thanks to rnbs , Sandman619 for helping me with the replays.
No offense man, but i don't think the water and flying were necessary, since water obliterates fire, and flying can always counter fire and even blaz with the correct plays, for the ground we didn't really see an abuse in blaziken (what we trying to discuss), it was just a baton pass and a sub high jump kick, and the baton pass was wasted too. Dragon was a good replay, showed how fire still flops against dragon even with an uber.Alright,this replay shows the difference between a good battler and a relatively average battler.If you look at the replay,the Rock user "RoseX" (not sure who it is) could have easily made some better plays there but didn't.Any good battler would have made those plays and who knows,maybe the outcome wouldn't be the same.So I think that replay shouldn't really be considered in all seriousness.
Now as promised,I've returned with more replays!Still using this set:
Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off / Baton Pass
- Protect
Vs. Ground (Sandman619)
Vs. Flying (Sandman619)
Vs. Water (rnbs)
Vs. Dragon (rnbs)
Vs. Fairy (rnbs)
I kinda lost in every single match up because I'm trash at this tier but hey!Fire already loses to these so its okay right? Now I don't think Blaziken should be banned,while it does Speed Boost,it's average bulk unlike Mega-Blaziken really tones down the pokemon.Again, High Jump Kick can not be spammed against every type,which means Flare Blitz is the next option.Flare Blitz is a recoil move which can not really be spammed.Life Orb + Recoil of Flare Blitz hurts Blaziken way too much.Now I wouldn't advise straight up unbanning it,rather have a suspect test although even suspect tests in monotype aren't really good as people are way too bias about it.
Again,thanks to rnbs , Sandman619 for helping me with the replays.
You also relay on a speed tie turn one on whether you get sticky web up or not, how is that good for bug?
Yeah that match showed us "heres how you beat blaziken, just sack 2-3 pokemon, and than come to revenge kill it". So other than mega pinsir that is a good pokemon and a good counter and the best mega on bug (Dont see why you wouldnt carry one on your team), i think im gonna pass on sacking some pokemon i needed later on and using "recoil" as my counter.
The reason I didn't use Pinsir was bc in the main chat we were talking about it, so I made a bug team without it. Also if you were curious, 252+ Atk Blaziken Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 212+ Def Volcarona: 142-168 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO A lot of Volcs including the 1 I used do run HP Ground, and some even run roost. So if it didn't have flare blitz and I had to rely on no recoil to wear it down, there's your answer, but moral is, Bug can handle Blaziken fine if it was added, a lot of people have been complaining that is a type that would be severely hurt by it.
Yea, a speed tie happened, its a 50/50 chance, and if not I could of set up webs later in the game if i got taunted at that very moment.
Against what exactly? SR breaks your sash and you can't switch against anything, best case scenario you'd have been able to set it up after Breloom killed one of your mons (and being KOed when doing it) and that's it. Yes, it's a 50/50 but one that let you apply a tremendous amount of pressure to the opposing team and without which it wouldn't have been as close as it otherwise was.
Er, sorry. I saw this post and felt the need to respond for clarification so this isn't actually related to the blazi discussion. Also, sorry if I say stuff you mentioned in an above post I skimmed through them.
There are lots of things to correct with your post. First of all, Greninja was always considered "insane" ever since it got released into competitive mons. I mean, the fact that it had access to an ability that changed your type to whatever move you were using granting STAb everywhere is just crazy. That, as well as its high speed tier and decent special attack is such a problem for everything. At this point, it was able to nearly sweep types like ground and have virtually no switch in.
Now, for ORAS, Greninja learned gunk shot and low kick giving it access to an even better movepool and access to nearly ohko clefable. The greninja sets became so unpredictable with this as it could run a whole bunch of moves. Main moves: Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Hidden Power [Fire], Gunk Shot, Low Kick, U-Turn, Grass knot. This moveset is really extreme and by the way, under no circumstance would greninja run max attack as it is mainly a special hitter. Note: some evs were thrown into attack for OHKOs like on clefable and such.
Sorry, just wanted to point out that those two moves didn't "make it broken" but it was always broken and those moves were sort of like the final straw. Hope this clarifies any discussion on the possibility of Greninja being unbanned for now.
(Edit: max attack on the yung band ninja creds to Sabella and azian and all falls down for that)
I don't think you understand why scp wanted the replays.There's no point in showing replays of types that fire already beats.He wanted replays to see if Blaziken made a difference in matchups that are already considered bad for Fire.
Ok I'd like to point out that the idea of a "type advantage" is outdated and ridiculous... The idea of monotype is to be able to win against ANY of the 18 types; in what kind of competitive atmosphere should one simply quit/lose because their opponent had the "advantage". When one wins using fire vs water the man using water shouldn't say WOW WTF or wow good job dude, they should simply say gg and leave. Why? Because their opponent did their job, when using something that has a distinct and common counter ones very first goal should be to deal with said counters.
My point here is to hopefully get the removal of the phrase "type advantage" from a competitive and potentially tier changing thread.
Thanks
CC
My point here is to hopefully get the removal of the phrase "type advantage" from a competitive and potentially tier changing thread.
Thanks
CC
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Thanks for point dat out man, hopefully it finish the greninja talk :3 (at that time i used the physically based mixed attacker set so dat explains the 252 Atk so ya)Lax said:
I think both replays (the ones it have advantage and the ones it dont have) are important, otherwise it will be Shaymin-s/ Kyurem-W all over again, where they pwnd types which grass/ ice already pwnd hard, but they didnt helped at all again types grass/ice already struggled, so their unban added absolutely nothing to the metagame at the time (it unbalanced the metagame instead)Zarif said:
Greninja is not being unbanned. It's not even up for discussion. I don't know how people started talking about this.
No, we want any replays that show how Blaziken interacts with the metagame. It doesn't really matter what type it's against unless we've seen a hundred of that same matchup already. If Blaziken doesn't do anything in the battle, then we probably won't care about that replay, but it really doesn't matter what type Blaziken is facing in these replays as long as we get to see exactly what the Uber Chicken can do and how good it really is. It sweeps Ice? Ok, let's see when it found the opportunity to set up. Grass got swept? Cool, what set was used to KO Mega Venusaur? All replays showing Blaziken interacting with the metagame are useful.
Lax wasn't advocating a geninja unban, he was putting that rumor to rest. As for ice I may be able to cover that one if yall like.
Thats because every "unique good team" has become generic LOL... The best 6 or so pokemon for every type are set, theres really no better team per type. So what you're asking for is worse teams but hey! they're "ungeneric"!!!! And how can you call a balanced meta not fun, you're in a state of time where you cannot lose simply because of matchup thats exactly what you should look for. Why are you playing this game if you want to use one thing that simply wins, what is the fun and excitement of that...
I gotta disagree. There are some teams that are ungeneric and good, sometimes even better than their generic counterparts. I think most of my teams are rather ungeneric and they work pretty well in the meta. I think some people overdo it though, so the team becomes bad. You don't need a full team of ungeneric stuff, that's just asking to lose. Personally, I think support mons are best for creative sets. Also having a move or item to check a threat is fine. Though the thing I like to abuse, is the element of suprise. Suprising your opponent catches them off-guard. I like messing with this in my teambuilder quite alot. For example Hidden Power Ice Diancie-Mega, bet booty's still pissed about that LOL. So I kinda disagree on 1 part of crazyclown's post which was about the ungeneric teams being bad. though for the rest of that post, I agree on, gj on that.
That's what I meant, "So what you're asking for is worse teams but hey! they're "ungeneric"!!!!" as you know most of my teams stray from the generic path yet they rise above what has become common. However you cannot deny that the generic teams for each type are certainly among the best.
And why is generic vs. ungeneric incredibly important to you? Besides, the metagame will make changes over time even if it's minor. What we may consider gimmicky now could become common and generic later. Who knows?
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