Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
is a Tiering Contributor
Keks and I , Acast XD.

Really bummed about that drop :/

On other note I agree with Kammi about hoopa on psy.

It makes matchups like Psychic vs practically every single type a lot against some(electric for Eg.) a bit against others(dark) , easier.

Especially a type its weak to, Ghost.

If you run melo+hoopaU I dont imagine you can possibly lose this game.

It completely destroys the gentle balance psy vs ghost had had with meloetta.

I do agree it should be looked at, possibly in the near future.

I know i will. >_>
 
The July usage stats are up on the Monotype Website.
We had nearly 200,000 (~197k) battles on the Monotype ladder in July! That is easily the most ever.
In other news, Bug is pulling away as the most used type.
What do you guys think about the latest release?

Pokemon usage stats and sprite gallery: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html
Type Matchup Table and Imbalanced Matchups: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html
Metagame Trends/Type Analyses/Lead Information: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/type-analyses.html (may take longer to load than normal)

As always, make sure to let me know if you need any help understanding something, or if you find any bugs!
A monthly stat update time! As usual, I'll do my bit of a write about about grass. My attempt is to give a broad overview of the type for players that don't use grass much, or have trouble building teams with it. If you have experience with grass, its likely nothing I'll mention will be new. Feel free to have a read if your eyes have had enough of M-Altaria. Thanks again to scpinion for the stats each month, you do an outstanding job.

The Matchups and Usage
As far as matchups go it was a bad month for Grass. Poison moved from Bad to Neutral matchup was the only positive improvement. However Flying and Steel moved from Bad to Terrible, Fairy and Electric moved from Good to Neutral, and Rock moved from Awesome to Good. Grass also boasted some of the most imbalanced matchups with Fire beating it 80.7% of the time, Bug beating it 79.2% of the time and Steel beating it with 78.9% of the time. That is tied with Ice and Rock with 3 imbalanced matchups.

As far as usage goes, Grass only went backwards with 3.24% in June to 2.57% in July, its lowest usage this year. For context, in now sits in a group with the other "bad" types including Electric, Poison, Ice and Rock.

The Top 6:
When I look at the six pokemon below, I see the basic build for a grass team in the current metagame. Below I'll discuss the common moves, items and spreads that each pokemon runs and what it is useful for in a grass team. The first percentage is the July usage, and the second percentage is the average usage over 2015. I would like to point out that the top 6 haven't changed for grass in the last 6 months (excluding the Skymin usage in February when it was banned).
Ferrothorn
:
(86.33% / 88.75%) The most used grass pokemon and for a good reason, boasting 3 neutralities and an immunity to grass weaknesses, as well as a great defensive stat spread, it does its job well. Usually runs a Relaxed nature, although Sassy spreads are also used. Top three items are Leftovers, Rocky Helmet and Focus Sash, the last of which is used to ensure hazards go up against Fire threats. Physical options include Gyro Ball and Power Whip (STABS) and Knock Off for added utility. Status moves include Leech Seed and Protect (which is relies on for recovery), Stealth Rock and Spikes (hazards), and Thunder Wave.
Venusaur
/ M-Venusaur
:
(85.80% / 81.38%) Without a doubt the best mega choice for grass, Venusaurite is currently used on 83.85% of teams, the highest this year. Runs a wide range of natures depending if it is defensive or offensively oriented. Common offensive moves are Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain (STAB), HP Fire and Earthquake for coverage. If Earthquake is run, usually a neutral or -Spe nature is used. Has recovery options in Synthesis and Leech Seed, and also runs Sleep Powder. It jumped up to 2nd in July, likely due to the drop of people using Sceptilite.
Breloom
:
(80.90% / 83.43%) Everyone knows how Breloom operates. Almost always a Technician Sash but Life Orb has been gaining popularity recently as well. Bullet Seed and Mach Punch for STABS (although some commonly run Power-Up Punch to boost attack; don't use this in my opinion), Rock Tomb for coverage. Spore is most commonly used Status, however can be combined with Swords Dance. It wishes it could run five moves. Jolly is most commonly run due to its subpar speed, although Adamant spreads are not uncommon. Jumped down to 3rd in July, essentially swapping with Venusaur, and with the rise of Shiftry usage, players much have been using alternative physical sweepers.
Serperior
:
(66.29% / 61.29%) Grass Special contrary sweeper almost exclusively runs Timid spreads to boost its speed to excellent levels as one of the fastest pokemon on grass. Items are either Leftovers, Life Orb or surprisingly Focus Sash. Leaf storm and sometimes Giga Drain as a second STAB, Dragon Pulse and either HP Fire / Rock for coverage. Also runs Mirror Coat (likely with Focus Sash) although I imagine this is less reliable. Status options for fourth move slot include Glare, Substitute and Taunt.
Cradily
:
(57.71% / 44.32%) Usually runs as a SpD wall, with Calm or Careful natures, however Bold is also common. Suctions Cups is the most common ability but it depends on what moves it runs; if boosting moves such as Curse or Stockpile are used, Suctions cups is the best option; otherwise there isn't much reason not to run Storm Drain. Item is usually Leftovers, although Weakness Policy has also be gaining popularity. Has Recover for recovery and can Toxic stall, as well as set Stealth Rocks. Due to equal attack and special attack, Cradily has the option to run either. On one hand you have Rock Slide and Earthquake, and on the other Giga Drain, Ancient Power and Earth Power. The physical set suffers when burnt but is otherwise stronger. The special set does benefit from the Storm Drain boost (but who would use a water move on a grass type?). Cradily offers great neutralities to Flying, Fire and Poison.
Whimsicott
:
(44.54% / 38.56%) Usually the fastest Pokemon on Grass with a 116 base speed, its usually runs either Timid (with SpA and Spe) or Bold (with HP and Def). Prankster is the most common ability but a good portion also runs Infiltrator; the split likely depending on how supportive/offensive you want your Whimsicott to be. Leftovers is usually the go-to item but Choice Specs also sees usage on the more offensive sets. The bizarre thing is that Switcheroo isn't even currently used on below 4% of Whimsicott, which seems like wasted potential. Moonblast and Giga are STAB options, while Shadow Ball and Psychic are used for coverage. Has a range of status options making use of Prankster, the most popular of which is Leech Seed, Encore, Substitute, Toxic and Stun Spore. Another noticeable absence in its most used moves is Taunt.

The Other Eight:
Now the following 8 Pokemon have all had above 10% usage in a least two months this year, and really represent the only semi-viable options that remain when building grass teams. Notice that there is a solid 20% jump from 6th place usage to 7th place.
Rotom-Mow
:
(24.70% / 24.46%) The most used Grass Pokemon outside of the top six, both this month and with year-long averages. I would place is as the most likely replacement of Whimsicott, although they do different jobs. Choice Scarf if the only option really used, and combined with the commonly used Timid nature, helps with the speed problem that most grass teams face. It's move pool is pretty limited but is does its job well. Offensive options are Volt Switch for momentum, Thunderbolt and Leaf Storm for STABS and HP Ice for pseudo-boltbeam. Trick is necessary to offload the scarf when convenient and Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave also represent solid status options. Levitate is also a surprisingly useful ability, as the primary defensive core of grass (Venu, Ferro, Crad) all take neutral Ground damage (read earthquake) and can offer a helpful switch in. It moved from 8th to 7th this month, however is percentage usage actually decreased slightly.

Ludicolo
:
(24.51% / 20.40%) I was surprised to see Ludicolo jump from 12th to 8th this month, with a rise of 10% usage. It is likely players were looking for something to help against Fire teams. Swift Swim is the majority ability however 39% also run Own Tempo for reasons I don't really understand. The most common spreads are bulky with Calm (HP and SpD) or Modest Offensive, holding Leftovers or Life Orb respectively. Damp Rock is also a good option when running Rain Dance however weakens synthesis on Venu. Offensive options are straightforward Giga Drain and three options of water STAB (Scald, Surf and Hydro Pump) with Ice Beam for coverage. Rain Dance setter to boost speed under Swift Swim, again helping address the speed problem of grass, as well as leech seed and protect for more defensive variants.

Trevenant
:
(19.70% / 21.38%) Didn't move position from last month. I personally think Trevenant is overused on grass, and there are better Pokemon that do its job as a special defensive wall (over 75% of Trevenant are Careful). Its niche is Harvest, coupled with Lum or Sitrus can provide good recovery. Can provide a decent status absorber for grass, a type which otherwise struggles dealing with status. Runs Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, Substitute and Rest as status options and Shadow Claw, Phantom Force, Horn Leech as STAB attacks. Its Physical (as opposed to special) presence on grass is also helpful. Can also be used as a spin blocker however rapid spin isn't too common anyway.

Shiftry
:
(18.52% / 13.22%) July was a bit of a turn-around for Shiftry, as in June it was 15th with 4.84% usage and rose to 10th with almost 4x as much usage. There is really only one reason to use Shiftry on a grass team and that is Defog. Usually Adamant (but Lonely and Jolly are also used) with a Life Orb or Focus Sash. Apart from Defog, Swords Dance is the only other status option used. Sucker Punch and Knock Off, Leaf Blade and Leaf Storm are the STAB options (Leaf Storm if Lonely nature), Fake Out for utility and Rock Slide to wreck Fire teams when sun is up, due to its Chlorophyll ability.

Celebi
:
(16.77% / 21.39%) Celebi actually dropped from 7th position to 11th in July, and lost about 10% usage. Runs a huge range of spreads, but held item is either leftovers or choice scarf with its decent (although not outstanding) speed tier. Natural Cure also allows it to function well as a status absorber for Grass. If offensive Celebi is what you want, Celebi runs Psychic, Giga Drain, Energy Ball for STABs, Earth Power, Dazzling Gleam and HP Fire for coverage. Interestingly this month, physical Celebi was nowhere to be seen, as it was in past months. Provides Grass with useful Heal Bell support and can also Baton Pass Nasty Plot and Calm Mind boosts making its useful as a support pokemon. Thunder Wave and Recover make up the rest of its commonly used status move options.

Sceptile
/ M-Sceptile
:
(13.01% / 22.37%) Has had its worst month in July with the lowest its usage has been in the entire year. Mega Sceptile is now used on just 11.22% of Grass teams, and without Sceptilite, it's pretty useless. Opportunity cost of the mega stone is usually too high, unless running Hyper Offensive grass. That being said, it is only of the Grass Pokemon that has viable sets on both the Physical and Special side. Swords Dance is can be run to boost attack on physical sets alongside options such as Leaf Blade, Dragon Claw, Earthquake and Drain Punch. On the Special side, there is Dragon Pulse, Giga Drain, Leaf Storm, Energy Ball, Focus Blast and HP Fire. Substitute is also a common choice. Its niche is being the fastest pokemon on Grass with 145 Base Speed and can only be paralysed via Glare, or Body Slam.

Shaymin
:
(11.20% / 12.96%**) I'm surprised this guy stuck around for longer than a month. Compared to its competition with Celebi, Sceptile and Serperior, its difficult to find a niche. However it does have less weaknesses than Celebi and also functions as a status absorber with Natural Cure. It doesn't require a mega stone to be useful like Sceptile and it doesn't need to boost its special attack with leaf storm like Serperior. It addition, Seed Flare can work as a pseudo-boost in special attack with a 40% chance of lowering the target's Special Defense stat by two stages. Shaymin is definitely not as useful in Land Forme. It runs either Leftovers or Life Orb with Timid nature. The standard set is Seed Flare, Earth Power, Air Slash and HP Ice, however Rest and Substitute are also options.

Roserade
:
(6.31% / 11.75%) Poor Roserade managed to fall below the 10% mark this month and down to 15th. Its best option is Choice Scarf although Life Orb and Black Sludge have gained usage this month. Also interestingly, Technician and Natural Cure are both run about 46% of the time, although I would argue that Technician is much better, giving it the niche of 90 BP Hidden Power (Fire or Rock). STAB options include Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Leaf Storm and Energy Ball, with coverage in Extrasensory, Dazzling Gleam, Shadow Ball in addition to HP. Also gaining popularity this month is Roserade as a hazard setter with Sleep Powder, Toxic Spikes and Spikes becoming common choices.

Conclusion
Grass is struggling to compete in the current metagame. It has many team options but not enough room to put them, causing it to run the same generic 6 over again if it wishes to stand a chance high ladder. The downside of this is that many players now know how to counter this build, so something fresh needs to happen for grass if it wants to build up a decent player base. The highlight for me during the month was ArkenCiel 's Grass team for the Core Challenge, which peaked at #4 on the ladder. Check it out if you haven't already, http://pastebin.com/YpH5w8TS .
 
Once again, not to be rude, But i find it very weird that In this specific forum topic, you support Altaria staying in the metagame, but among various players such as myself and other's you say you get why it should be banned or agree with us why it's broken? It's just me maybe but that sounds like you have 2 arguments, and that your only sharing 1 cause you might want it to stay, seeing as you use Dragon alot in tournaments, and on Ladder. Once again no disrespect, I just feel there is a hint of bias in your argument.
Yeah, I get what you mean, but I mentioned the reasons why I didn't agree with the ban. I'll be clearer with them now so it won't be a problem again.

Flying: Usage on Altaria was so low that I didn't really understand why it should be banned. People say that having low usage doesn't save a Pokemon from being suspected, and while I see the drastic effects it has on those types, it's only happening on a small scale. The Pokemon banned previously like Mega-Metagross, Mega-Mawile, and whatnot were all sooo widely used in their respective types that it forced the meta to be prepared for them since they were almost ALWAYS on that type.

Here, we have Altaria barely scraping by with 10% usage a month, and when you compare it to the banned mons from before, it's like "What?" You could afford not to run a dedicated counter because it wasn't that prevalent. I acknowledge that it's breaking teams left and right in tandem with Flying's already superb core, but is 10% of Flying teams really affecting the meta like the previously banned Pokemon which teams had to desperately try to prepare for but ended up with no solutions? It's not there often, but when it is there, it does work stupidly well, and I didn't disagree it was doing work, but I was just questioning if it's doing enough work on the meta. That's all that made me doubt its banishment on Flying.

To compare it with another tier, would OU really have banned Greninja if it was only on 10% of the teams. Can 10% really OVERcentralize the meta? Would people be complaining about something that they only have a small chance of fighting against it. Of course, when people realize how good something is, they'll tend to use it for themselves too. What we're actually seeing now in the meta's usage could possibly be that time before Altaria is abused in the ladder for Flying. If Altaria were to get enough usage, then I'd gladly eat my words. But even now, I feel like I'm the only one who's concerned about usage being a determining factor for suspects, and I may have to eat my words regardless. To me it's like everyone is ban-hungry since not everything is adding up right. To everyone else, I'm probably just downright wrong in thinking this way (about usage and determining banishment), lol, and I may have to let that go.

Dragon: It's a different case on Dragon. It does have the usage to make people prepare for it and centralize the meta, but the reason why I didn't agree with the ban on Dragon was because the stats didn't add up. We can almost assume that Altaria will be on every Dragon team yet the types Pk-Kaiser listed were capable of putting up a fight except Fire, Water, and Electric, which already have problems with Dragon to begin with, so it bears less significance. Kyurem is the bigger problem for Water, Garchomp for Fire, and I want to say it's just Dragon's hyper offensive style in general is what ends up beating Electric, but yeah, Altaria does steamroll Electric well.

In Dark and Fighting Altaria is certainly a huge threat, but they still put up a fight that doesn't really scream "we can't beat Dragon!" with win rates of 46.8% and 42.4% respectively as of July. Altaria is now at 85% usage on Dragon, but they still have a neutral match-up (according to the match-up tables at least). With the threat Altaria imposes, these two types still hang on. Is it really as bad as we thought? Here are some replays I pulled from my RMT for the 4th Dragon core challenge of Dark doing very well against Dragon. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-252711575 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253851032 <- This one doesn't have Weavile. I wish I had some good ones to showcase for Fighting too.

The types with a good match up against Dragon are Fairy, Ice, and Psychic. Of those 3 I emphasized Psychic because that's something people believe auto-loses to Altaria, but Psychic has the versatility to handle Dragon very well. Mew and Gardevoir, which are both common on Psychic teams, handle Dragon as a type very well. Psychic has viable counters to Altaria as well, so I don't see why Psychic would be struggling.

As far as the stats are concerned, the only types that struggle with Dragon are Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Poison, none of which is Altaria's sole fault. Dark and Fighting that many say auto-lose to Altaria aren't displaying auto-lose stats, with Dark having less of a problem with Altaria compared to Fighting. Dragon v Dragon does become a game of who can properly set up Altaria first, but before that, Dragon v Dragon was just who can spam Dragon moves faster.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon is less versatile in its play style than Flying. This reminds me of the Mega-Gallade ban back then. Dragon doesn't have the walls like Flying does to support Altaria-Mega just like how Gallade-Mega was broken for Psychic, but not for Fighting. In one of those replays, Mega Gardevoir came to destroy Altaria-Mega. It failed and was crippled in the process. Mega-Gardevoir would have just simply taken a different Pokemon down instead on Dragon. If Weavile were to use Icicle Crash on Altaria-Mega on Flying, Skarmory would take the hit instead. For Dragon, another Pokemon would go down. Even if it was just a strong hit in general, Dragon teams generally lack recovery in its teambuild outside of Altaria unlike Flying.

All in all, if Altaria were to have more usage on Flying, I'd definitely agree with a ban for it. As it stands now, low usage doesn't convince me of overcentralization since none of the bans in any tier ever banned a Pokemon that didn't have high usage. If this is found invalid as a reason, I'd agree with a ban on Flying for the fantastic core it creates with the type. For Dragon, I don't believe its best match ups are entirely Altaria-Mega's fault and should not be banned by association. Its other supposedly good match-ups because of Altaria don't reflect the stats of being in an overwhelming disadvantage unlike the types that suffered from previously banned Pokemon (like Steel w/ MGross having a ridiculously better match up with Dragon and Flying).

Ehh. The thing that bothers me behind all this is that Altaria-Mega isn't like the Pokemon that was suspected before it. It didn't have the usage and then it didn't have the stats. On paper it's just not like the others and it just makes me question whether it's the community making Altaria out to be a worse problem than it is or if Altaria is just a different case of broken. In the end, I'm not forcing anyone to think like me. I know Altaria does great work, but what I listed above, my uneasiness with all the information, is why I can't wholeheartedly agree with a ban on both. I don't really think Altaria will be saved from banishment, and I can understand that, but I had to share my thoughts anyway.
 
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Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Yeah, I get what you mean, but I mentioned the reasons why I didn't agree with the ban. I'll be clearer with them now so it won't be a problem again.

Flying: Usage on Altaria was so low that I didn't really understand why it should be banned. People say that having low usage doesn't save a Pokemon from being suspected, and while I see the drastic effects it has on those types, it's only happening on a small scale. The Pokemon banned previously like Mega-Metagross, Mega-Mawile, and whatnot were all sooo widely used in their respective types that it forced the meta to be prepared for them since they were almost ALWAYS on that type.

Here, we have Altaria barely scraping by with 10% usage a month, and when you compare it to the banned mons from before, it's like "What?" You could afford not to run a dedicated counter because it wasn't that prevalent. I acknowledge that it's breaking teams left and right in tandem with Flying's already superb core, but is 10% of Flying teams really affecting the meta like the previously banned Pokemon which teams had to desperately try to prepare for but ended up with no solutions? It's not there often, but when it is there, it does work stupidly well, and I didn't disagree it was doing work, but I was just questioning if it's doing enough work on the meta. That's all that made me doubt its banishment on Flying.

To compare it with another tier, would OU really have banned Greninja if it was only on 10% of the teams. Can 10% really OVERcentralize the meta? Would people be complaining about something that they only have a small chance of fighting against it. Of course, when people realize how good something is, they'll tend to use it for themselves too. What we're actually seeing now in the meta's usage could possibly be that time before Altaria is abused in the ladder for Flying. If Altaria were to get enough usage, then I'd gladly eat my words. But even now, I feel like I'm the only one who's concerned about usage being a determining factor for suspects, and I may have to eat my words regardless. To me it's like everyone is ban-hungry since not everything is adding up right. To everyone else, I'm probably just downright wrong in thinking this way (about usage and determining banishment), lol, and I may have to let that go.

Dragon: It's a different case on Dragon. It does have the usage to make people prepare for it and centralize the meta, but the reason why I didn't agree with the ban on Dragon was because the stats didn't add up. We can almost assume that Altaria will be on every Dragon team yet the types you listed were capable of putting up a fight except Fire, Water, and Electric, which already have problems with Dragon to begin with, so it bears less significance. Kyurem is the bigger problem for Water, Garchomp for Fire, and I want to say it's just Dragon's hyper offensive style in general is what ends up beating Electric, but yeah, Altaria does steamroll Electric well.

In Dark and Fighting Altaria is certainly a huge threat, but they still put up a fight that doesn't really scream "we can't beat it Dragon!" with win rates of 46.8% and 42.4% respectively as of July. Altaria is now at 85% usage on Dragon, but they still have a neutral match-up (according to the match-up tables at least). With the threat Altaria imposes, these two types still hang on. Is it really as bad as we thought? Here are some replays I pulled from my RMT for the 4th Dragon core challenge of Dark doing very well against Dragon. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-252711575 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253851032 <- This one doesn't have Weavile. I wish I had some good ones to showcase for Fighting too.

The types with a good match up against Dragon are Fairy, Ice, and Psychic. Of those 3 I emphasized Psychic because that's something people believe auto-loses to Altaria, but Psychic has the versatility to handle Dragon very well. Mew and Gardevoir, which are both common on Psychic teams, handle Dragon as a type very well. Psychic has viable counters to Altaria as well, so I don't see why Psychic would be struggling.

As far as the stats are concerned, the only types that struggle with Dragon are Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Poison, none of which is Altaria's sole fault. Dark and Fighting that many say auto-lose to Altaria aren't displaying auto-lose stats, with Dark having less of a problem with Altaria compared to Fighting. Dragon v Dragon does become a game of who can properly set up Altaria first, but before that, Dragon v Dragon was just who can spam Dragon moves faster.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon is less versatile in its play style than Flying. This reminds me of the Mega-Gallade ban back then. Dragon doesn't have the walls like Flying does to support Altaria-Mega just like how Gallade-Mega was broken for Psychic, but not for Fighting. In one of those replays, Mega Gardevoir came to destroy Altaria-Mega. It failed and was crippled in the process. Mega-Gardevoir would have just simply taken a different Pokemon down instead on Dragon. If Weavile were to use Icicle Crash on Altaria-Mega on Flying, Skarmory would take the hit instead. For Dragon, another Pokemon would go down. Even if it was just a strong hit in general, Dragon teams generally lack recovery in its teambuild outside of Altaria unlike Flying.

All in all, if Altaria were to have more usage on Flying, I'd definitely agree with a ban for it. As it stands now, low usage doesn't convince me of overcentralization since none of the bans in any tier ever banned a Pokemon that didn't have high usage. If this is found invalid as a reason, I'd agree with a ban on Flying for the fantastic core it creates with the type. For Dragon, I don't believe its best match ups are entirely Altaria-Mega's fault and should not be banned by association. Its other supposedly good match-ups because of Altaria don't reflect the stats of being in an overwhelming disadvantage unlike the types that suffered from previously banned Pokemon (like Steel w/ MGross having a ridiculously better match up with Dragon and Flying).

Ehh. The thing that bothers me behind all this is that Altaria-Mega isn't like the Pokemon that was suspected before it. It didn't have the usage and then it didn't have the stats. On paper it's just not like the others and it just makes me question whether it's the community making Altaria a worse problem than it is or if Altaria is just a different case of broken. In the end, I'm not forcing anyone to think like me. I know Altaria does great work, but what I listed above, my uneasiness with all the information, is why I can't wholeheartedly agree with a ban on both. I don't really think Altaria will be saved from banishment, and I can understand that, but I had to share my thoughts anyway.
I think this is just a bit of miscommunication. Altaria is not being suspected for overcentralization. You are right in saying that Mega Altaria does not over centralize the meta, because it simply doesn't have enough usage on Flying for anyone to expect to see it.
Greninja and Aegislash were both banned from OU for over centralization, but Mega Altaria's case is completely different from those two bans. There's a reason M-Alt is only being suspected in Monotype, and not in any other tiers. It's because it causes an issue that's completely exclusive to monotype: type matchup imbalance.
It may not necessarily be an auto-win against certain types (see my post earlier where I posted a replay of me beating Anttya's M-Altaria with Dark. Yes, I'm very proud of that win.) But it does tip the scales so far in favor of the Mega Altaria user that it just starts becoming unfair. Altaria won't be screwing up the entire metagame by any means, just because it doesn't have enough usage for that. It's not a large-scale, metagame spanning issue. It's a small-scale, case-by-case issue that doesn't happen all the time, but still needs to be looked at. I'd be willing to bet that if we had access to statistics showing the win rate of a Mega Altaria team vs Dark, Fighting, etc, it would win 80% of the time at least. That's not where those matchups should be.
 
Sorry for the kinda/sorta double post.

I'm gonna do an overall analysis of the type usage this month and include a few of my theories as to why things changed the way they did.

June July


Bug, the most common type for both months, jumped more than a full percentage point. This is unsurprising to me considering Hoopa-U was just released and Bug is the perfect counter to it and its types.
Just looking at the order of the types, it looks like Flying actually dropped in usage (2nd to 3rd) and Electric (17th to 15th) and Grass (15th to 14th) actually rose in usage, but when we take a look at the percentages, we find that the opposite is true. FEWER people are using Electric and Grass, even though the types are ranked higher. MORE people are using Flying even though it's ranked lower than before.

What does this mean in terms of the overall trend of the metagame? It means the common types are getting more common and the rare types are getting more rare.

How we should deal with this information isn't obvious. Personally, I think this is worrisome. It means that we are becoming more centralized around a select few types and we have less diversity. Considering the nature of our metagame, diversity is what we should pride ourselves on and it keeps the game interesting. How fun would it be if you run into a Bug team every third battle on the ladder? That's where this trend is taking us. I understand if others think this really isn't an issue, but I would disagree.
Unfortunately, even if we do all agree that it's a problem, there's not much we can do other than continue to suspect and ban the pokemon that are just too good or the ones that cause auto-win situations. If we continue to do that, I think this trend may eventually reverse itself. Type usage will never be equal and there's nothing wrong with that, but we don't want our metagame centered around 3 types.

More specific things I'm noticing that I can explain:
  • Psychic shot up a full 2 percentage points. I expected a jump because of Hoopa-U, but I never thought it would be that big of a rise in usage.
  • Ground had a big drop. RIP Smooth Rock
  • Dark jumped up a bit (Yay Hoopa-U)
Specific things I'm noticing that I can't explain:
  • Poison's usage plummeted. It looks like it just drove off of a cliff halfway through the month. I can't imagine why this happened, but Septicus said something about it being his fault because he stopped laddering. So all you poison lovers can start hating on him I guess.
  • Steel rose somewhat in usage. I use the type a lot and I just started laddering again recently but that shouldn't explain its jump. Maybe the Mega Altaria suspect is to blame? I don't know.
  • Fire dropped quite a bit.
  • Fairy rose quite a bit.
  • Fighting continues to be very popular. I didn't understand it before, and I don't understand it now. It has some great pokemon at its disposal (Mega Gallade, Keldeo, Terrakion), but it can't do much outside of hyper offense except for a few teams that focus more on bulky offense. Maybe this is just an indicator that our current metagame is very offensively oriented. That's the only explanation I can think of.
Here is how I can explain increase/decrease of type usage.

Psychic: As you have mentioned, Hoopa is out. Hence Dark and Psychic are bound to be shot up ('cause people want to try Hoopa in monotype). Psychic, specifically, I think, shot up because now it has Hoopa U, a considerable mixed wallbreaker. Plus, Victini, making Psychic vs. Bug matches one sided, unless the Victini is statused.

Ground: RIP Smooth Rock ban...

Dark: As mentioned, Hoopa U.

Poison: As poison is a bit technical to use, not many people even try to use it. Hence, drop...

Steel: Steel's rise in usage is, I think, due to M-Altaria. People are using it so that they don't get wiped out by it. Moreover, Steel is rather a hard type for Bug to overcome.

Fire: This is what I can't explain. Maybe people lost interest in Fire. I don't know.

Fairy: Explain this too, someone.

Fighting: It has been some time, but Fighting is back in the scene. It is one of the types, which I think, has a high coverage. It can easily defeat Bug, and with somewhat difficulty, Flying too. Due to this, I think that's why its usage rose.
 
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Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Fairy probably rose because again, it is a type easily capable of dealing with m-alt and while also supporting multiple playstyles. Plus with poison falling, fairy is better off (poison has always been harder to overcome than steel) and fire also fell (another type it has a bit of trouble with).

Fighting can defeat pretty much anything besides ghost and m-alt (notice how I don't say dragon and flying but specifically the broken m-alt), although fairy and slowbro specifically can be difficult. It's also an easy type to use as a beginner because HO is simply easier than stall or balanced.

Fire, well I mean it can't do a whole lot to m-alt despite the pixilate resist. Fighting and fire are the two 'notorious' HO types, and fighting beats fire.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I'm gonna go ahead and build on what Acast said in his great analysis, mostly elaborating on Hoopa and Bug and what this implies for our metagame continuing forward.

Considering that Hoopa Unbound was only released halfway through the month, it has really shown a large amount of usage; this could be partially due to people wanting to test it out (most of the usage on Psychic is probably contributed to this) but its over 45% usage on Dark is really something interesting. Meanwhile, Dark has risen above 6% usage for the first time since Greninja was banned! Yay, Dark users finally have a decent special/mixed powerful attacker to replace their beloved Uber frog. I expect to see Hoopa-Unbound continue to rise in usage on Dark, although I am not an expert on the type, as it seems to balance out most teams well.

For Psychic, it seems like Hoopa-Unbound is just another plaything. The type doesn't really *need* it in the same way that Dark needs it. Sure, it has a nice niche, and definitely helps with the Steel matchup (see: PK-Kaiser's steelbreaker Hoopa set), but honestly Psychic would be just fine without it, as it was before. I could see this getting suspected or banned in the future, for sure.

Meanwhile Bug now has an upper hand over most of the metagame, continuing to rise in usage with the Hoopa release and the increase of Psychic and Dark usage as well. Ground and Fire, both previously bad matchups for Bug, have both dropped in usage. Fire is Bug's only bad matchup according to the stats, while Ghost, Flying, and Steel are all neutrally-bad. If a Mega Charizard X suspect is due after Altaria, then Bug's matchup with Flying will improve to probably be around 45% or 50%. This is quickly becoming a type that can rule the metagame. With all of this considered and if trends keep going the way they have been, Bug looks like it will be up for a nerf very soon, and I think we all know what will be or should be on the chopping block: Genesect has been sitting in the corner of the discussion thread for nearly 3 months now. I think it would be interesting to see how Bug handles the current meta without Genesect- I can't imagine that Bug would be nerfed into oblivion just by banning this one pokemon, and other types may get a chance to breathe without this terrifying sweeper sitting on 10% of all Monotype teams.

Tagging scpinion to request that bans and other benchmarks (Greninja ban, Hoopa release, M-Altaria suspect) be included on the type usage graph on the Monotype website, to help illustrate how nerfs and buffs affect certain types over time.
We already have a section that summarizes how the metagame looks between major shifts.
Metagame Reference -> Stats -> Archive

I didn't publicize it widely b/c the items/moves aren't 100% correct (I don't have access to that raw data). Going forward, I want each section of the archive to encompass multiple months to avoid biasing from a small sample size during an evolving metagame.

Kyu-W/Skymin/Galladite Ban to Zappy/Ninja/Metagrossite Ban (mid-Feb–May, 2015)
Mawilite/Slowbronite ban to Kyu-W/Skymin/Galladite Ban (Jan–mid-Feb, 2015)
ORAS release to Mawilite/Slowbronite ban (server crash/late-Nov–Dec, 2014)

I plan to add another section to this that runs from the Zappy/Greninja/Metagroass ban to the (possible) Altarianite ban (if not then it will go until Hoopa-Release).

I'll look into adding stuff to the graph, but idk how to do that off the top of my head.
 

Sabella

formerly Booty
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
Well, suspect tests are almost over and I haven't really dropped an opinion on Mega Altaria, so here goes:


With all due respect, I can't see why anyone would want this in our Metagame. With 75/110/105 Bulk, and great typing, this thing sweeps Over 5 types in the entire Tier, without any sort of skill what so ever or effort. Before I say anymore, let me bring up the Points on why Altaria is Broken and why it sweeps so Many types.

Psychic: Now, I understand Flying and Dragon(Both with Altaria as a choice of mega) Loses to Psychic, 59.0% for dragon, and 50.8% for flying. But when it really comes down to it Getting Gardevoir in a good spot, or having a defensive steel Pokemon to check Altaria, is the only way it will be beatable. Sure Slowbro can Twave and cripple it, but Altaria can heal bell and it's basically set up bait, unless you want to switch to Gardevoir or another Pokemon that can check it and hope for a Para. I have laddered alot in ORAS, and I have come to see the only way i can beat Altaria on psychic, is by getting Mega Gardevoir in a Good spot, or by walling it with my Jirachi set, which is a hard Counter to Mono attacking Altaria. i have some replays, of me playing some really good players on the ladder, such as Anttya and Arkenciel, and the results had all been the same: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-255993284 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-255985910 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253848404 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253855627
In each replay even though I came out the winner, the Only ensured way i was beating Altaria was to force it out with my Jirachi set:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Iron Head
which is a hard counter to Mono attacking Mega Altaria. But I'm forced to run this on my team to avoid losing to it. Having to run certain Pokemon on certain types just for a Pokemon results in major meta shifts like these, and I believe this is unhealthy.
Dragon: This really isn't too complicated, but ill explain anyways. basically all it takes is 1 misplay, as in you Just need to get Altaria in on the right spot, Such as on a Locked Latios, or a Tank Chomp set and it's basically GG. Once again, more replays to support my point and for you all to see for yourself: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/eos-monotype-68030 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-255017829
Fighting: What can I really say? Since fighting is a Hyper offensive type, I would have to say in all honesty, that it has less trouble with mega Altaria then the other types. But Cobalion is the only thing that can really stop it, With Thunderwave, Taunt, and Iron head.
Water: With Greninja Banned, there is really no Hard check to Mono attacking Altaria once again. It sets u on every Common water type, besides Azumarill who can 1HKO it with Play Rough, or Empoleon who can Phaze it out with roar.
Fire: The way I see it. It's Like fire v mega Lati twins: It's 1 sided until you have a certain pokemon(Volcarona). Fire only has Heatran for Bulky Altaria, and even if it's not bulky, it can 1hko that with Earthquake.
DARK: No set up is even needed. You can just click return and eat up hits from anything not named Weavile, which Dark teams are forced to run if they don't want to auto lose to Altaria. Once again this supports what I'm explaining about metagame shifts, being forced to run a certain Mon for the soul purpose of not autolosing to something you won't ever be able to beat otherwise.
Flying: 1 vs 6 Altaria can sweep flying, due to Skarmory being unable to Whirlwind it out and Phaze it. Even with iron head it doesn't stand a Chance, as shown here http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-255979405

Electric: Not really that hard either. Just set up on anything not named Magnazone, and call it a snack wrap :]


Another thing I wanted to bring up, was Arkenciel's post


Once again, not to be rude, But i find it very weird that In this specific forum topic, you support Altaria staying in the metagame, but among various players such as myself and other's you say you get why it should be banned or agree with us why it's broken? It's just me maybe but that sounds like you have 2 arguments, and that your only sharing 1 cause you might want it to stay, seeing as you use Dragon alot in tournaments, and on Ladder. Once again no disrespect, I just feel there is a hint of bias in your argument.

Final verdict from me: Ban Altaria from BOTH types, we have had enough with this cotton bird!
I agree with most of these but u dont need defensive jirachi on psychic choice scarf works just as well. Also being an extreme problem for dragon teams as it it can flinch its way to victory usually.
I have to say with fire the combo of ballon tran with flash cannon and will o rotom h should be more then enough to check this mon and all variants of its sets. Working to preserve the ballon shouldnt be a huge issue.
Ive been on the good side of that 1v 6 flying match up so i know how that is. You need to be in a good position. Dragon enough said i agree 100%. Electric same thing alt+lando on flying blow it away. With darki find it alot more trouble some on flying bc flying can check weavile with skarm while dragon has no reall switch ins. I found the combo of mega sab sash bisharp and orb weavile a great way to keep hazards off the feild in both both matchs so that i can check alt effeciently ill provide replays later. If you can somehow break skarm on flyong i think weavile and bisharp become much more lethal in that matchup. I guess to some up my point while when u see this mon vs those types yes it can be a problem but with proper team preperation i think most of them can check it efficiently. Excluding maybe dragon and electric
 

Entei

TIMMEHHHHHHHHHHHHhHhhhh
is a Tiering Contributor
Here is how I can explain increase/decrease of type usage.

Fire: This is what I can't explain. Maybe people lost interest in Fire. I don't know.

Fairy: Explain this too, someone.
Fire - Recently people have started running TankChomp ( Bulky Garchomp with max def ) which possibly just depressed fire users all around, making dragon with Malt+TankChomp+Lati@s+Dragonite impossible to beat, nd the simple fact it is being spammed on ladder the ladder
( See: Matchup Tables ).
- Ground users testing everything they can to recover from Smooth Rock ban, which makes ground spam the ladder too.
- Another possibility could be the Hoopa hype o_o People either losing interest in fire or just neglected it to test Hoopa out.

Fairy - With Steel being (usually) an autowin against it, and common on the current ladder, and with the Hoopa hype ( Scarf Hoopa destroys Fairy with GunkShot spam, and when Kefki is down. ).
- And again, another reason could be to test Hoopa itslef.

^My opinion :s^
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Fire - Recently people have started running TankChomp ( Bulky Garchomp with max def ) which possibly just depressed fire users all around, making dragon with Malt+TankChomp+Lati@s+Dragonite impossible to beat, nd the simple fact it is being spammed on ladder the ladder
( See: Matchup Tables ).
- Ground users testing everything they can to recover from Smooth Rock ban, which makes ground spam the ladder too.
- Another possibility could be the Hoopa hype o_o People either losing interest in fire or just neglected it to test Hoopa out.

Fairy - With Steel being (usually) an autowin against it, and common on the current ladder, and with the Hoopa hype ( Scarf Hoopa destroys Fairy with GunkShot spam, and when Kefki is down. ).
- And again, another reason could be to test Hoopa itslef.

^My opinion :s^
Your reasoning for Fire makes sense. I like the Garchomp explanation, although Ground actually dropped in usage so I wouldn't say people are spamming the ladder with it trying to test it out.

And Fairy actually went up in usage, not down. If it went down we could blame it on the rise of Steel. Perhaps Fairy usage is going up because Dark is too? Or maybe the Altaria suspect is to blame since Fairy teams kind of check it. The popularity of Fighting is another possibility too.
 
I think Mega P!ka posted some good replays how mega alt is broken on dragon. I think I've seen many other good replays showing how broken it is on dragon but i really didn't have the nerves to go and search :s



With that being said i don't really get the argument how its not broken on dragon, I've seen people say that "it doesn't get the support that it needs on dragon"
How much support does it really need to sweep teams?

We all have seen the replays of it going solo through teams. And on dragon it can get some nice Screen support from Latios. It also get healing wish which is a nice support move for Altaria. I understand how you are saying that Fire and Electric loose to dragon and will keep loosing to dragon and banning mega alt won't help thatbut what about the other types that Mega Alt loves to sweep on, like Dark, Fighting etc. I think Dragon can offer enough support that makes mega alt broken. n_n
There are lot of ways how to abuse Mega Altaria on dragon that we haven't even thought of:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/infinite-monotype-25492
With the exception of Prosaic, how many of these these replays are actually in a good point in the ladder or against competent players? Not one. In a lot of these replays, the inexperienced player got swept due to his ineptness to let Altaria set up. One of the Normal players could have could switched into Banded/Scarfed Staraptor and scared you out or put you in the Lopunny Fake Out range


192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 270-318 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 243-286 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 75-88 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO

In one of the replays, a Water user with a Tentcruel lets Pika set up to +3 before finally utilizing it as a check. The one sweep that could not have been prevented was the Normal user with the happy Ditto.

If we look at the battle against Prosaic, we see that Prosaic made the misplay and lost his check, which cost him the game. Unfortunately, that was a misplay on his part. While it does showcase the power of Altaria, this matchup isn't the best replay to argue is brokeness, as the matchup versus the two types is 65% in favor of Dragon. Had Prosaic's Gyarados had Ice Fang and had it set up before Altaria, we can argue the brokenness of Gyarados as well. Also, lets not forget that a +2 Sharpedo downright sweeps Dragon once Kyurem is eliminated or has gone through one rocks switch in if rocks are still on the field. This batlle most have likely ended up in a win for Prosaic had he not sacked Empoleon.


Here we have an imbalanced matchup vs Firnen and I. While the TYPE matchup was imbalanced, you can see how offebsive pressure alone can be enough to prevent Altaria from setting up, which is something that Prosaic did not do. You can argue that my main STAB blah blah blah, but many common types have access to scarf users that can do the same. Flying has Togekiss, Psychic has Jirachi, Dragon has Kyruem, Bug has Genesect, Dark has Hoopa, etc etc etc
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-254976270
 
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Sabella

formerly Booty
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
Have to say i really agree with what edwins said especially is the prosaic replay. He sacked his one check to mono attacking altaria which is most common. By losing empoleon his only way to win that game was getting a dd up with grayados or get +2 speed with sharpedo. I Wouldnt say that was a super bad matchup but probably one sided for the most part pika having an advantage. If that altaria has earthquake it probably would have been a 6-0. So i have to say it still gives water massive trouble but bc its different various movesets but none the less i think it can be beat. Also water does get cloyater which i have seen rise in usage bc of dragon which is a great offensive pressure vs dragon
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Well, I did some matrix math, and here is the overall win rate for each type:

Bug has a 52.3732% win rate. Dark has 48.1482%. Dragon has 52.5757%. Electric has 41.9374%. Fairy has 53.6693%. Fighting has 51.747%. Fire has 43.4291%. Flying has 51.9663%. Ghost has 46.7073%. Grass has 38.5485%. Ground has 55.4443%. Ice has 42.6725%. Normal has 44.8932%. Poison has 37.9734%. Psychic has 54.4824%. Rock has 40.4218%. Steel has 54.4936%. Water has 50.025%.
Methodology: I put the matchup table in Excel, changed everything to the 1630 stats, put .5 in the middle, and then multiplied by the usage stats (matrix multiplication ofc). This was the result.

My thoughts: Poison is worse than I thought, but like I expected, Electric is abysmal. Poison probably just loses too badly to all the common types. Plus, it's only green matchups are grass, which also sucks (like I expected) and Fairy. Rock is also trash, no wonder usage is so low. Ground is still the best (as usual, people overreact to nerfs and stop using it. Smooth rock was barely a nerf. Banning an integral mon would actually kill its reign atop the standings.) Psychic is great, but flying isn't as op as I thought it would be. Maybe if Char and Alt get banned Zapdos can come back. Maybe. I wouldn't know since I didn't play mono back then. Fairy is getting usage because it is good! Gardevoir is really powerful and Azu, Klefki, and Diancie give great support. What do you guys think?
 
With the exception of Prosaic, how many of these these replays are actually in a good point in the ladder or against competent players? Not one. In a lot of these replays, the inexperienced player got swept due to his ineptness to let Altaria set up. One of the Normal players could have could switched into Banded/Scarfed Staraptor and scared you out or put you in the Lopunny Fake Out range


192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 270-318 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 243-286 (79.1 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Fake Out vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 75-88 (24.4 - 28.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO

In one of the replays, a Water user with a Tentcruel lets Pika set up to +3 before finally utilizing it as a check. The one sweep that could not have been prevented was the Normal user with the happy Ditto.

If we look at the battle against Prosaic, we see that Prosaic made the misplay and lost his check, which cost him the game. Unfortunately, that was a misplay on his part. While it does showcase the power of Altaria, this matchup isn't the best replay to argue is brokeness, as the matchup versus the two types is 65% in favor of Dragon. Had Prosaic's Gyarados had Ice Fang and had it set up before Altaria, we can argue the brokenness of Gyarados as well. Also, lets not forget that a +2 Sharpedo downright sweeps Dragon once Kyurem is eliminated or has gone through one rocks switch in if rocks are still on the field. This batlle most have likely ended up in a win for Prosaic had he not sacked Empoleon.


Here we have an imbalanced matchup vs Firnen and I. While the TYPE matchup was imbalanced, you can see how offebsive pressure alone can be enough to prevent Altaria from setting up, which is something that Prosaic did not do. You can argue that my main STAB blah blah blah, but many common types have access to scarf users that can do the same. Flying has Togekiss, Psychic has Jirachi, Dragon has Kyruem, Bug has Genesect, Dark has Hoopa, etc etc etc
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-254976270
I understand what you are saying, And tbh many of those players were probably not monotype experts but i would say that rnbs is a top tier monotype player and Animus is atleast a experienced monotype player. With that being said i agree with the points that you made about those replays.The point of my post was try to make people understand that Altaria doesn't need much support at all to sweep types as it shows in those replays.
 
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Well, I did some matrix math, and here is the overall win rate for each type:

Bug has a 52.3732% win rate. Dark has 48.1482%. Dragon has 52.5757%. Electric has 41.9374%. Fairy has 53.6693%. Fighting has 51.747%. Fire has 43.4291%. Flying has 51.9663%. Ghost has 46.7073%. Grass has 38.5485%. Ground has 55.4443%. Ice has 42.6725%. Normal has 44.8932%. Poison has 37.9734%. Psychic has 54.4824%. Rock has 40.4218%. Steel has 54.4936%. Water has 50.025%.
Methodology: I put the matchup table in Excel, changed everything to the 1630 stats, put .5 in the middle, and then multiplied by the usage stats (matrix multiplication ofc). This was the result.
It was a half-assed attempt to find the win rate on the ladder, based on how common each type was and win rates. So for bug, I did something along the lines of:
(Bug's win rate against Dark x Dark's Usage) + (Bug's win rate against Dragon x Dragon's Usage) + ... With everyone type but itself. Then to account for itself, you would need a range of ± half of Bugs own usage on the ladder. If I'm not shitty at math, that should give a win rate for each type on the ladder based on usage. So bug might win 77.60% against grass, but since its less common, it gets a lower value.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-84#post-6261512

Correct me if I wrong, but I'm pretty sure that is what I attempted to do in the above post in the old thread. It was decided however that the information wasn't very accurate or useful.
Again, we can't do this and expect to have results that are accurate or meaningful. Click the link and scroll down for explanation.
Maybe you should add something to explain this to the bottom of the matchup page scpinion so people don't keep doing this analysis.
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Well maybe people don't use one type for prolonged periods of time. That assumption is the only thing invalidating this method of testing type. If these stats were available for tournament settings, ten the percentages would be more accurate. I don't know why scpinion would invalidate this analysis. I've used fairy, ground, psychic, flying, and ice so far. I've had different win rates with each one. So that assumption is untrue, and the analysis remains strong. Average GXE per type is awful, good players would use better types, skewing the analysis even more.
 
Tbh I wanted to bring up the topic of genesect. If you noticed, the last couple months bug has been the most used type, and has rose a whole percent this month. As A cast mentioned, and what I've seen, almost 1/3 of matches I come across are vs bug. Genesect is a great mon for bug teams, as it provides a ton of coverage, especially against steel. It is the 2nd most used mon in the type, just under Volcarona (which is basically a nessesity on bug teams). It has consistently had no bad match ups, and almost of of its possible match ups being either good or awesome. This is obviously beginning to become a problem, as it's promoting over centralization.

From a ground user perspective, genesect is now harder to beat with the loss of smooth rock, especially from its array of options, including energy ball, douse drive techno blast, and ice beam, there are little switch ins. If it has energy ball, I often have to rely on switching exca in, taking more than half hp from an energy ball or ice beam, and hope it stays in so I can get rid of it easier. If it switches to something to take an eq, next time I'd probably have to sack something to genesect to get exca a free switch in. Which tbh is silly.

As for Ice, which I've been using a lot recently, genesect is a big threat. It alone on Bug, with some predicting I can manage it, but if there's a scizor, and/or a Heracross, things become near impossible (see my match against Pk-Kaiser in AC finals). It's not like type wise, bug has an advantage against ice, it's a very easy win, especially if the genesect is physically biased with blaze kick/flamethrower. Ice already has 2 matchups that are basically auto losses. 3 is outrageous.

Grass is very new to me, but I've been toying around with it. Mega Venu is my only 100% full proof genesect check, but, this doesn't include the fact that pinsir is also in the mix, or armaldo, or volcarona. If genesect is out of the picture, grass can have a somewhat easier time against it. Yea there's mega Pinsir, but if your smart, rotom mow is awesome.

All in all, 2/3 of those are types not used a lot, but this basically proves, for ice more so, how genesect can basically destroy.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Tbh I wanted to bring up the topic of genesect. If you noticed, the last couple months bug has been the most used type, and has rose a whole percent this month. As A cast mentioned, and what I've seen, almost 1/3 of matches I come across are vs bug. Genesect is a great mon for bug teams, as it provides a ton of coverage, especially against steel. It is the 2nd most used mon in the type, just under Volcarona (which is basically a nessesity on bug teams). It has consistently had no bad match ups, and almost of of its possible match ups being either good or awesome. This is obviously beginning to become a problem, as it's promoting over centralization.

From a ground user perspective, genesect is now harder to beat with the loss of smooth rock, especially from its array of options, including energy ball, douse drive techno blast, and ice beam, there are little switch ins. If it has energy ball, I often have to rely on switching exca in, taking more than half hp from an energy ball or ice beam, and hope it stays in so I can get rid of it easier. If it switches to something to take an eq, next time I'd probably have to sack something to genesect to get exca a free switch in. Which tbh is silly.

As for Ice, which I've been using a lot recently, genesect is a big threat. It alone on Bug, with some predicting I can manage it, but if there's a scizor, and/or a Heracross, things become near impossible (see my match against Pk-Kaiser in AC finals). It's not like type wise, bug has an advantage against ice, it's a very easy win, especially if the genesect is physically biased with blaze kick/flamethrower. Ice already has 2 matchups that are basically auto losses. 3 is outrageous.

Grass is very new to me, but I've been toying around with it. Mega Venu is my only 100% full proof genesect check, but, this doesn't include the fact that pinsir is also in the mix, or armaldo, or volcarona. If genesect is out of the picture, grass can have a somewhat easier time against it. Yea there's mega Pinsir, but if your smart, rotom mow is awesome.

All in all, 2/3 of those are types not used a lot, but this basically proves, for ice more so, how genesect can basically destroy.
I haven't really taken a stand on Genesect yet, but I agree it's time we take a serious look at it (after Altarianite of course).
Even if Genesect isn't "too good" in its own right, it's one of the primary reasons that Bug is absolutely dominating the ladder right now. I see Bug's situation as being extremely similar to pre-Zapdos-ban Flying. The type as a whole has become too good and it needs a nerf. The convenient thing about Bug is that the solution is a little more obvious than Flying's situation was: Genesect. Ban Genesect, and I bet Bug's near perfect matchups across the board (with the exception of Fire) will start looking more reasonable.

I'm not saying Genesect is too good. I'm saying Bug as a type is too good and Genesect is the best way to nerf it.

Of course Mega Altaria is the primary concern at the moment, but I believe Genesect should be next in line. Or at least some sort of nerf to Bug teams.
 
I haven't really taken a stand on Genesect yet, but I agree it's time we take a serious look at it (after Altarianite of course).
Even if Genesect isn't "too good" in its own right, it's one of the primary reasons that Bug is absolutely dominating the ladder right now. I see Bug's situation as being extremely similar to pre-Zapdos-ban Flying. The type as a whole has become too good and it needs a nerf. The convenient thing about Bug is that the solution is a little more obvious than Flying's situation was: Genesect. Ban Genesect, and I bet Bug's near perfect matchups across the board (with the exception of Fire) will start looking more reasonable.

I'm not saying Genesect is too good. I'm saying Bug as a type is too good and Genesect is the best way to nerf it.

Of course Mega Altaria is the primary concern at the moment, but I believe Genesect should be next in line. Or at least some sort of nerf to Bug teams.
That's what I mean. Genesect by itself is by little means broken withe the current meta. But it provides bug with near perfect coverage.
 
Tbh I wanted to bring up the topic of genesect. If you noticed, the last couple months bug has been the most used type, and has rose a whole percent this month. As A cast mentioned, and what I've seen, almost 1/3 of matches I come across are vs bug. Genesect is a great mon for bug teams, as it provides a ton of coverage, especially against steel. It is the 2nd most used mon in the type, just under Volcarona (which is basically a nessesity on bug teams). It has consistently had no bad match ups, and almost of of its possible match ups being either good or awesome. This is obviously beginning to become a problem, as it's promoting over centralization.

From a ground user perspective, genesect is now harder to beat with the loss of smooth rock, especially from its array of options, including energy ball, douse drive techno blast, and ice beam, there are little switch ins. If it has energy ball, I often have to rely on switching exca in, taking more than half hp from an energy ball or ice beam, and hope it stays in so I can get rid of it easier. If it switches to something to take an eq, next time I'd probably have to sack something to genesect to get exca a free switch in. Which tbh is silly.

As for Ice, which I've been using a lot recently, genesect is a big threat. It alone on Bug, with some predicting I can manage it, but if there's a scizor, and/or a Heracross, things become near impossible (see my match against Pk-Kaiser in AC finals). It's not like type wise, bug has an advantage against ice, it's a very easy win, especially if the genesect is physically biased with blaze kick/flamethrower. Ice already has 2 matchups that are basically auto losses. 3 is outrageous.

Grass is very new to me, but I've been toying around with it. Mega Venu is my only 100% full proof genesect check, but, this doesn't include the fact that pinsir is also in the mix, or armaldo, or volcarona. If genesect is out of the picture, grass can have a somewhat easier time against it. Yea there's mega Pinsir, but if your smart, rotom mow is awesome.

All in all, 2/3 of those are types not used a lot, but this basically proves, for ice more so, how genesect can basically destroy.
I'm on mobile so i won't type much. As a ground user, you have to sack something everything Genesect comes in? Guess what? The bug user has to sack something every time that excadrill comes in as well. Same with rock slide lando-i. Let's ban those as well. This is something referred to as counter play


I used to main psychic until recently, and Genesect was never an issue. In fact, i ended up winning at least 80% of my bug matchups. If i lost, it was usually due to webs since i didn't run defog

It seems like a lot of genesects are running steel stabs now, and as a main fairy user, i still don't see him as a problem

If anything, i see genesect as a huge threat to birds more than anything
 
I'm on mobile so i won't type much. As a ground user, you have to sack something everything Genesect comes in? Guess what? The bug user has to sack something every time that excadrill comes in as well. Same with rock slide lando-i. Let's ban those as well. This is something referred to as counter play


I used to main psychic until recently, and Genesect was never an issue. In fact, i ended up winning at least 80% of my bug matchups. If i lost, it was usually due to webs since i didn't run defog

It seems like a lot of genesects are running steel stabs now, and as a main fairy user, i still don't see him as a problem

If anything, i see genesect as a huge threat to birds more than anything
I will say that Energy Ball / Ice beam Genesect (about 20% of all sets) is probably extremely unhealthy for the Bug vs Ground matchup as it creates a lot of 50/50s and one shots a ton of 'mons with the correct download boost; however, the most common coverage run on Genesect is boltbeam coverage, so you are correct in saying that Genesect really is a threat to Flying over anything else. Most Genesects don't run this, but if you have issues with Water you could even do Thunderbolt / Energy Ball Genesect and really mess that type up too. It's very versatile in that it can cover a weakness of your team almost single-handedly.

On the other hand, Genesect runs very little STAB besides U-Turn for pivoting. Iron Head and Flash Cannon are both sitting on 30% of Genesects (physical sets almost always run steel coverage, whereas it's more rare on special variants), and Bug Buzz is run on even fewer Genesects than Energy Ball is. Genesect isn't run for STAB power on Bug teams, it's run for coverage, which is probably why you didn't have that much trouble with it when you played Psychic or Fairy.

I think that if Bug was a struggling type Genesect would probably not be a huge problem in the metagame, but since Bug is becoming so offensively dominant, it's natural that we turn to the strongest 'mon on the type to nerf it. Definitely deserves a look after the Altaria suspect finishes up.
 
I haven't really taken a stand on Genesect yet, but I agree it's time we take a serious look at it (after Altarianite of course).
Even if Genesect isn't "too good" in its own right, it's one of the primary reasons that Bug is absolutely dominating the ladder right now. I see Bug's situation as being extremely similar to pre-Zapdos-ban Flying. The type as a whole has become too good and it needs a nerf. The convenient thing about Bug is that the solution is a little more obvious than Flying's situation was: Genesect. Ban Genesect, and I bet Bug's near perfect matchups across the board (with the exception of Fire) will start looking more reasonable.

I'm not saying Genesect is too good. I'm saying Bug as a type is too good and Genesect is the best way to nerf it.

Of course Mega Altaria is the primary concern at the moment, but I believe Genesect should be next in line. Or at least some sort of nerf to Bug teams.
The problem with straight up banning genesect though is that bug will go from well balanced to heavily skewed.

Genesect is the one all and all ice user of bug. Galvantula can get by with hp ice but the damage is pitiful unless you run specs. Without genesect, bug had very little chance vs flying. Mega Zard x and skarm form an already hard to break core for bug. Without an ice beam user flying pretty much has a switch in for everything bug can throw out.

Ground was also even more of a nightmare. With bug having few ways to break its defensive core. Again out side of specs galv. Landorus is so op with gene. Bug is a mostly physical type outside volc, galv, and gene. And lando forces out the former two with ease.

And dragon. Oh my. Basically dragonite alone laughs it up with its weakness policy. If you even try to start wearing things down with specs galv kyurem black comes in for free to get a kill on something. There is no reliable way to kill it. But for dragon I can give a pass. Because while I hate how one sided it was when we didn't have gene, it's not much better when it is one sided now.

As for ice. I laugh at anyone saying Genesect is the reason ice gets rofl stomped by bug. Scizor is the reason ice doesn't stand a chance with heracross/cc mega Pinsir is distant second. THEN Volcarona, then gene. Gene hardly runs physical iron head blaze kick. And if it does, then that's a good opportunity to block it with avalugg

If you want to nerf bug. Just ban mega Pinsir. It's the thing that ACTUALLY creates one sided match ups against grass and fighting. And removing it would help skew bug back out of favor since fighting is constantly prevalent in the ladder.
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
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The problem with straight up banning genesect though is that bug will go from well balanced to heavily skewed.

Genesect is the one all and all ice user of bug. Galvantula can get by with hp ice but the damage is pitiful unless you run specs. Without genesect, bug had very little chance vs flying. Mega Zard x and skarm form an already hard to break core for bug. Without an ice beam user flying pretty much has a switch in for everything bug can throw out.

Ground was also even more of a nightmare. With bug having few ways to break its defensive core. Again out side of specs galv. Landorus is so op with gene. Bug is a mostly physical type outside volc, galv, and gene. And lando forces out the former two with ease.

And dragon. Oh my. Basically dragonite alone laughs it up with its weakness policy. If you even try to start wearing things down with specs galv kyurem black comes in for free to get a kill on something. There is no reliable way to kill it. But for dragon I can give a pass. Because while I hate how one sided it was when we didn't have gene, it's not much better when it is one sided now.

As for ice. I laugh at anyone saying Genesect is the reason ice gets rofl stomped by bug. Scizor is the reason ice doesn't stand a chance with heracross/cc mega Pinsir is distant second. THEN Volcarona, then gene. Gene hardly runs physical iron head blaze kick. And if it does, then that's a good opportunity to block it with avalugg

If you want to nerf bug. Just ban mega Pinsir. It's the thing that ACTUALLY creates one sided match ups against grass and fighting. And removing it would help skew bug back out of favor since fighting is constantly prevalent in the ladder.
I wouldn't be upset if we banned Mega Pinsir, but I'm honestly surprised you're defending Bug's viability. You're saying Bug depends on Genesect THAT much? You're saying if it weren't for Genesect, Flying would have a type advantage? Good. Bug is absurdly good right now and it desperately needs a nerf. If the type needs Genesect just because it makes beating Bug's weaknesses easy, that means it's a natural and logical choice to ban it. Since when is it a bad thing if Flying has an advantage over Bug? By the very nature of type matchups, Flying SHOULD have an advantage, but it doesn't and that's all because of one Pokemon. (as a side note, there are other cases where types should have an advantage and don't. Example: Electric vs Water/Flying. In those cases, it's due to much more than just one pokemon and the issue stems from the lack of viable pokemon on Electric, as opposed to one single pokemon tilting the entire matchup, such as the case with Genesect.)

As a Bug user, you have it incredibly good right now (too good if you ask me) and I hope you realize that. Genesect is a blessing to your type, but I don't think it should be a right. Bug is not going to suffer without Genesect. The type has access to so many good pokemon that I can't imagine it would suffer much even if you banned Mega Pinsir and Genesect together. Banning Genesect just brings it down to a more playable level.
 
The problem with straight up banning genesect though is that bug will go from well balanced to heavily skewed.

Genesect is the one all and all ice user of bug. Galvantula can get by with hp ice but the damage is pitiful unless you run specs. Without genesect, bug had very little chance vs flying. Mega Zard x and skarm form an already hard to break core for bug. Without an ice beam user flying pretty much has a switch in for everything bug can throw out.

Ground was also even more of a nightmare. With bug having few ways to break its defensive core. Again out side of specs galv. Landorus is so op with gene. Bug is a mostly physical type outside volc, galv, and gene. And lando forces out the former two with ease.

And dragon. Oh my. Basically dragonite alone laughs it up with its weakness policy. If you even try to start wearing things down with specs galv kyurem black comes in for free to get a kill on something. There is no reliable way to kill it. But for dragon I can give a pass. Because while I hate how one sided it was when we didn't have gene, it's not much better when it is one sided now.

As for ice. I laugh at anyone saying Genesect is the reason ice gets rofl stomped by bug. Scizor is the reason ice doesn't stand a chance with heracross/cc mega Pinsir is distant second. THEN Volcarona, then gene. Gene hardly runs physical iron head blaze kick. And if it does, then that's a good opportunity to block it with avalugg

If you want to nerf bug. Just ban mega Pinsir. It's the thing that ACTUALLY creates one sided match ups against grass and fighting. And removing it would help skew bug back out of favor since fighting is constantly prevalent in the ladder.
With your ice comment, at least scizor can be checked, specs lapras ans walrein do kill it. Genesect however outspeeds every mon thanks to scarf, so it's very very difficult to keep in check. As for Heracross, Avalugg can revenge kill it so long as you save it and keep it'd health up. So ice users do have a right to say genesect crushes ice. Period.
 
Ehehe. A Core Challenge for Bug with Genesect + Volcarona would be amazing right now since Genesect is such a hot topic. Genesect was with that package of Pokemon allowed to roam free in Monotype because the meta split from OU, right? Look like that's going to be undone too. On my Dragon team, I dedicate a move slot on Scarf Latios just for Genesect because Bug is so prevalent. I'm not all too bothered by it, but it is resembling Greninja with this thing's coverage. It can choose which types it wants to dismantle with relative ease. Bug on the match-up tables must be awesome.
 
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