Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[SubMindRaikou]

All I'm going to say is: 1: Umbreon isn't that common. It is just barely on top 9 of the Dark usage. 2: Like let's be honest here, Mega Sableye, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar AND Umbreon. That's basically a stall team and leaves you with only 2 open spots for offensive mons (#BanHoopa?). Dark is a type that has to trade offense to make the famous defensive core as where other types like normal require a core of 2 pokemon. Might as well ban Staraptor so we can weaken the normal core amirite?

On a side note: Lum Berry is the most common item on Bisharp making it able to set up without fearing a will o wisp. +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Also let's not forget Steel can run Jirachi which skillfully flinches Sableye to death after mega evolution (which is easily forced with heatran).

Other than that your argument was pretty solid tbh and you were probably the first person to make me understand why Sableye might be uncompetitive.

Umbreon was included because imo for something to be a check it has to beat all forms of mega sableye & friends, no matter how rare, which is why even though MAmpharos is a strong check to MSab, its only strong because the dark user doesnt have umbreon most of the time (either because they dont want to 6-0 electric or because they needed the team slot for something else)

Even though Im pretty sure that the normal core stuff was a joke, the normal core doesnt have an op mega that can take care of their fighting weakness while spamming priority wows and eventually sweeping w/ cm and a move of its choice :p

Also i probably should have made this more clear but that calc was for if it was utility msab which would most likely go for koff on a physical attacker (unless its scizor) since koff would get rid of lum or remove trans air balloon if it predicts a wow. It being utility sab also means it doesnt cm going for the sweep, so bisharp is more than likely going to take a koff or wow if you try and switch it in unless they come in together or it switches on a recover (even then +2 only 2hkos so your being left with a burnt sharp rest of the match, doesnt really matter tho since vs dark its not doing much anyway

 

[vlmufa]

Umbreon was included because imo for something to be a check it has to beat all forms of mega sableye & friends, no matter how rare, which is why even though MAmpharos is a strong check to MSab, its only strong because the dark user doesnt have umbreon most of the time (either because they dont want to 6-0 electric or because they needed the team slot for something else)

Even though Im pretty sure that the normal core stuff was a joke, the normal core doesnt have an op mega that can take care of their fighting weakness while spamming priority wows and eventually sweeping w/ cm and a move of its choice :p

Also i probably should have made this more clear but that calc was for if it was utility msab which would most likely go for koff on a physical attacker (unless its scizor) since koff would get rid of lum or remove trans air balloon if it predicts a wow. It being utility sab also means it doesnt cm going for the sweep, so bisharp is more than likely going to take a koff or wow if you try and switch it in unless they come in together or it switches on a recover (even then +2 only 2hkos so your being left with a burnt sharp rest of the match, doesnt really matter tho since vs dark its not doing much anyway

Well then again, utility Sableye gets beaten by heatran since it doesn't run Calm Mind but rather standard set with Knock Off or Metal Burst. And yes the normal core thingy was a joke :s

 

[Josh]

I think it would be better if you would actually make a writeup and explain with calcs why Mega-Houndoom is a Viable check for Mega-Sableye, rather than making a post with one picture.

I viewed it as rather obvious, and not needing explaining. Just something SubMindRaikou forgot about since its not seen that much is all.

But, if you want me to go into it.

Mega Houndoom is not a check. It is a counter, and a very reliable one at that.

• Immune to Will-O-Wisp, so won't get worn down
• Resists both of Mega Sableye's STABs
• Runs Nasty Plot, so doesn't care about Snarl

Sableye can't even touch this thing. It is a free, safe switchin.
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Houndoom: 42-49 (14.4 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And again, Mega Houndoom can quickly outboost Sableye, so CM and Snarl aren't a problem.

 

[Rhalekin]

Theres been a lot of dont ban MSab, so this is just a post playing devil's advocate.

MSab should be banned from monotype since certain types realistically cant beat it, while every type certainly has pokemon to beat it in a 1v1 MSab is a ghost type and cant be trapped, so they are going to switch out.

Electric:
Toxic MAmphy - Umbreon has heal bell, which contrary to popular belief, actually does remove toxic status for MSab. Umbreon and MSab also get reliable recover (recover and wish) while MAmphy does not, allowing them to easily outlast MAmpharos, and if MSab even starts clicking an attacking move when MAmphy comes in then it wont last long
0 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- 9.7% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage
0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 49-58 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 49-58 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 5HKO after sandstorm damage
As you can see even bulky MAmphy sets with max hp can only switch in around 7 times into an attack, combine that with any sandstorm damage (its a special attacker, why wouldn't they switch into ttar? If you start predicting and clicking focus miss, they just keep in MSab and hit you again, making it die even faster!)

Band Guts Luxray - Firstly MSab has no business spreading burn around, what does it affect? Its a type full of special attackers, MSab would be better of a nice boost to its SpDef in using calm mind, which would let it take on the entire rest of the team. You are then left with
252+ Atk Choice Band Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
Which MSab then recovers away, leaving you with a check that doesn't work.
Utility MSab also beats Luxray
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

SubCMRaikou - Is a lord an beats everything, whats the surprise? #notbiased But really, it loses to snarl. +1 snarl will 5hko, and you cant just start tbolting it since then you lose
+1 0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 78-93 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 54-64 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO

Ice:
Specs Walrein - Can actually win, assuming the dark user doesnt feel like preserving something that can almost 6-0 ice by itself
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Walrein Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(If they koff then switch out and come in and recover on something else, then rip)

Specs Lapras - Loses to MSab, it can koff then recover away the damage or even switch to a teammate.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lapras Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Max rolls = 99% damage!!! (2 hp from a ko), your going to need a tiny bit of prior damage but if its a 1v1 (like all your checks so desperately want) then it loses.

Steel:
Bisharp - Loses to MSab
+2 252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 46-54 (15.1 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO

Magnezone - Loses to MSab
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

Heatran - Needs hax to win, even with an active flash fire
252 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

These are just 3 types that can have trouble with MSab, and even for these 3 MSab can beat its "checks" 1v1, or you can sack something and bring your check in but then its either too strong (rip special attackers) or its teammates easily take care of your checks

MSab by itself also steamrolls Ghost teams, as nothing can beat MSab except another MSab on that type. This is already 3 types (not including ice) that cannot beat MSab due to MSab 6-0ing by itself or because MSab with a tiny bit of team support ends up winning. This doesn't even take into account other types that cannot beat MSab + friends, and while team support alone can never ban a pokemon it really can break a pokemon when everything you have is easily beaten by the teamsupport.

Apparently MDoom does beat MSab, ( thx Joshz ) but standard ttar can counter it
56 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 318-374 (109.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 83.5% chance to 4HKO
(Not that MDoom should stay in to Ttar anyway, so Sabless dark can beat MSab dark)

When taking into account teamsupport that are suddenly more types that cannot beat MSab, as pokemon that are easily worn down by hazards, sand storm damage, and just attacks in general when switching into MSab eventually die, and MSab + friends keep healthy with wish, recover, roost and lefties.

What about ghost? It has to be a casualty. The same principle that applied to Skymin and KyuW apply here. When they got banned the council said that they wouldn't be unbanning any more ubers. Why? Because they are broken in the monotype metagame. The same applies to MSab, just because Ghost becomes bad doesn't mean you shouldn't ban a broken pokemon, and even though offensively it will never reach the same potential the same affect still applies.

Just to end this I would like to point out how MSab is broken and uncompetitive from ous tiering policy.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/

"II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough."

In monotype the matchups are pretty skewed, much more than in ou. However certain matchup advantages get to be too much. MSab auto wins against electric if they use MAmphy as their check with toxic and the dark user carries heal bell. If MSab carries the right set and teammates it can easily get past teams that rely on 1 check to beat it. This fits with the BP team example, and while that may be ok for a few types (dragon v electric or fire) it is unacceptable for a ton of types (dark v electric, ice, steel, dark, ghost) to be auto losing based on who their check is and whether the dark user prepared for it. In this way MSab reaches the "uncompetitive" status.

"III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it."

MSab also fits under the definition for broken. While it may not be a uber capable of 6-0ing a majority of teams, it is broken in the way it requires something out of every type. While this is applicable in a small way to a lot of pokemon, such as how a water user must always prepare for Mega Venusaur, MSab pushes this to the extremes. A lot of types must include a check to MSab, just like water needs something to get past MVenu, but MVenu and water is just one type. MSab requires a majority of types to prepare for it, and more often than not creating specific sets just for MSab. While a little bit of change and adapting is good for a meta, a pokemon that forces every user of a type to use x as a check to not get 6-0d is broken. You cannot skill your way past MSab, as the only way to get past it is to use your check and click a move, no amount of double switching will force it out, no amount of surprise moves on physical or special attackers will kill it, you must use a certain pokemon or die.

Another thing to note is that banning MSab can only make the meta healthier. It greatly lessens the teambuilding pressure put onto teams, which would lead to a more fun and more diverse meta. Ghost and Dark still have regular sableye, which is also better at checking physical attackers but unlike the mega cannot wall an almost infinite amount of special attackers with cm + snarl.

This is why MSab should be banned, its combination of teammates, moves, abilities, and bulk make it broken and uncompetitive, and its difficulty to even check is shown in the way users prepare for it.

I can solidly say your one of the first people to make a solid arguement for why it should be banned, other than the gibberish i said. You took everything people disliked about mega sab and put it into 1 good, smart, and detailed summarization. Amazing Job.

 

[Arash]

MSab by itself also steamrolls Ghost teams, as nothing can beat MSab except another MSab on that type. This is already 3 types (not including ice) that cannot beat MSab due to MSab 6-0ing by itself or because MSab with a tiny bit of team support ends up winning. This doesn't even take into account other types that cannot beat MSab + friends, and while team support alone can never ban a pokemon it really can break a pokemon when everything you have is easily beaten by the teamsupport.

Let's be honest, ghost isn't gonna magically be even with dark if mega-sab is banned. Msab and friends steamroll ghost teams, yes, but if banned, just the "friends" are good enough to beat ghost every time.

Just to end this I would like to point out how MSab is broken and uncompetitive from ou's tiering policy.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/

"II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough."

In monotype the matchups are pretty skewed, much more than in ou. However certain matchup advantages get to be too much. MSab auto wins against electric if they use MAmphy as their check with toxic and the dark user carries heal bell. If MSab carries the right set and teammates it can easily get past teams that rely on 1 check to beat it. This fits with the BP team example, and while that may be ok for a few types (dragon v electric or fire) it is unacceptable for a ton of types (dark v electric, ice, steel, dark, ghost) to be auto losing based on who their check is and whether the dark user prepared for it. In this way MSab reaches the "uncompetitive" status.

A ton of types? Dark vs Dark is a mirror match, and will be 50/50 regardless if mega-sab is banned or not. Dark vs Ghost is heavily favored towards Dark, and there's not much that can be done about that. Electric, Ice and Steel will have a difficult time against it, but Steel can take measures to prepare for it at least (assuming they don't play stupidly)

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
MSab also fits under the definition for broken. While it may not be a uber capable of 6-0ing a majority of teams, it is broken in the way it requires something out of every type. While this is applicable in a small way to a lot of pokemon, such as how a water user must always prepare for Mega Venusaur, MSab pushes this to the extremes. A lot of types must include a check to MSab, just like water needs something to get past MVenu, but MVenu and water is just one type. MSab requires a majority of types to prepare for it, and more often than not creating specific sets just for MSab. While a little bit of change and adapting is good for a meta, a pokemon that forces every user of a type to use x as a check to not get 6-0d is broken. You cannot skill your way past MSab, as the only way to get past it is to use your check and click a move, no amount of double switching will force it out, no amount of surprise moves on physical or special attackers will kill it, you must use a certain pokemon or die.

Mega-Venu doesn't just irk water teams... Electric, Water, Poison, Grass, Fighting, Rock all hate this thing due to its defenses, typing, ability, and good movepool (for its purposes). Each of these teams isn't outright beaten or 6-0'd by it, but they have to take measures to beat it or else they will lose. Mega-Sab is in this same boat IMO; it is a dangerous threat and must be accounted for in team-building, but it is not impossible to beat by any means.

Another thing to note is that banning MSab can only make the meta healthier. It greatly lessens the teambuilding pressure put onto teams, which would lead to a more fun and more diverse meta. Ghost and Dark still have regular sableye, which is also better at checking physical attackers but unlike the mega cannot wall an almost infinite amount of special attackers with cm + snarl.

This is why MSab should be banned, its combination of teammates, moves, abilities, and bulk make it broken and uncompetitive, and its difficulty to even check is shown in the way users prepare for it.

Why do you care about the teambuilding pressure put on teams? I would prefer a metagame where some actual thought goes into these teams, not just slapped together since there's only 2-3 threats to account for. Mega-Sableye is dangerous due to teammates/moves/ability/etc.etc., but if you're gonna include teammates into its ban the same argument can be made of almost any threatening mon

 

[scpinion]

There are enough votes to reach a verdict in the Sablenite suspect. Those of you that haven't voted, feel free to send it in anyways. I'll gladly add it to the spreadsheet for posterity.

Sablenite will NOT be banned from Monotype.
You may view the votes here.

 

[Zar]

#BringBackTypeBans

So yeahh sice we didnt ban that monster, what are we going to look into next? I'd suggest Hoopa-Unbound but hav we started a discussion on something yet?

 

[scpinion]

#BringBackTypeBans

So yeahh sice we didnt ban that monster, what are we going to look into next? I'd suggest Hoopa-Unbound but hav we started a discussion on something yet?

Personally (i.e. I'm not speaking on behalf of the council), I don't find anything in the current metagame to be suspect worthy. I know it is a new concept in monotype, but for once we have a reasonably balanced and stable metagame! I'd like to let it develop for some time, especially with the major Monotype tournaments right around the corner (OM Grand Slam, Mono Premier League, Origin League Championship).

 

[Day Healer]

#BringBackTypeBans

So yeahh sice we didnt ban that monster, what are we going to look into next? I'd suggest Hoopa-Unbound but hav we started a discussion on something yet?

I agree with a Hoopa-u suspect, because contrary to mega sableye which was just overcentralizating, Hoopa-u is just downright broken and don't have any safe switch ins at all in the entire metagame (porygon 2 and klefki comes close, but knock off and fire punch are a thing as well, so meh)

Specially on psychic with the offensive core Hoopa u - Scarf victini - Mega gardevoir, where Hoopa break most walls and Tini / megavoir finish the job. Hoopa-u definitively needs to go.

Pd: If someone like to see what I think about Hoopa-u check here. Also Ghast comment is a nice read too

 

[Acast]

Let's not get ban-happy, guys. Let the metagame settle after a suspect. Even though nothing was banned, we should have some down time before we think about suspecting anything else. Also, I completely agree with scpinion's post.

Personally (i.e. I'm not speaking on behalf of the council), I don't find anything in the current metagame to be suspect worthy. I know it is a new concept in monotype, but for once we have a reasonably balanced and stable metagame! I'd like to let it develop for some time, especially with the major Monotype tournaments right around the corner (OM Grand Slam, Mono Premier League, Origin League Championship).

The metagame is probably the best we've had in a long time, if not the most balanced we've ever had. Let's just leave it be for a little while and enjoy the progress we've made.

 

[Day Healer]

Let's not get ban-happy, guys. Let the metagame settle after a suspect. Even though nothing was banned, we should have some down time before we think about suspecting anything else.

The purpose of this thread isn't be ban-happy or no, the purpose of this thread is "discuss anything not on these banlists wich people feel too overpowered for the meta". Hoopa-u fulfill this requirement i think (in my opinion Hoopa-u was deserving the suspect a lot more than Mega sableye, which was just a nuisance)

 

[Neimenko]

Wasn't there discussion about Hoopa U recently? Didn't council members say that Hoopa might be suspected eventually but that it's too early? Can we please stop spinning in circles by heating up discussion about same mons over and over and over again? ;_;

 

[darkrai147]

Just wondering, has any discussion been given to Landorus-I? It got banned from OU with a crazy high majority, and in general threats are more broken in Mono than in OU due to the building restrictions. Seems like it would be worth a discussion at the very least. Although I do agree that overall this is definitely the most balanced this meta has been in recent memory, so props to the council.

 

[DoW]

Just wondering, has any discussion been given to Landorus-I? It got banned from OU with a crazy high majority, and in general threats are more broken in Mono than in OU due to the building restrictions. Seems like it would be worth a discussion at the very least. Although I do agree that overall this is definitely the most balanced this meta has been in recent memory, so props to the council.

There was a discussion of Lando-I a while ago, and in fact there are a number of good points in favour of a ban, including it giving a very skewed matchup against many teams of the following types: Grass, Steel, Rock, Fairy, Dark, Electric, Poison, Fighting... (although many of those are only against bulkier teams, or with certain sets being used). However, Lando-t is preferred on Flying, while losing it on Ground would be something of a large loss. Moreover, just because a team doesn't have any switch-ins doesn't mean it is completely helpless, and pretty much any scarf mon or even fast attacker can be equipped with a move that will take Landorus out.
Because of this, I see no need for a Landorus ban at the present time.

 

[Acast]

Just wondering, has any discussion been given to Landorus-I? It got banned from OU with a crazy high majority, and in general threats are more broken in Mono than in OU due to the building restrictions. Seems like it would be worth a discussion at the very least. Although I do agree that overall this is definitely the most balanced this meta has been in recent memory, so props to the council.

Lando-I is kind of a rare case in which it's less threatening in Monotype than in OU. It's generally accepted that, on Ground teams, Landorus-I is forced to run mostly special sets because Ground lacks good special attackers. That severely limits its options and makes it more predictable. Unpredictability was one of the reasons it was so good in OU iirc.
It might be worth discussing Landorus-I, but I would be opposed to a suspect or any talk of banning it.

ps: I typed this up before I saw Articuno I's post, so I'll just post the reply anyway :x

 

[ArVaDa-]

Idk that preferred on flying is the right word on flying teams. For rocks maybe when you don't run skarmory or gliscor. In terms of practice, I very clearly remember landorus i being a huge staple on flying teams. Notable users being arifeen and argus. As of last year it was a premier ground type to choose on flying teams when it shredded steel teams apart pre mega metagross. Idk that it is even worth talking about a ban, but it reminded me of pre oras before gliscor started to see significantly more usage.

 

[vlmufa]

Eh, to be honest if there's anything I would call out Lando-I for being too good on is providing Gravity support on ground teams breaking even flying sp def walls. Other than that I agree with the rest of the guys saying Landorus doesn't need a suspect, really not that ban-worthy.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

Just wondering, has any discussion been given to Landorus-I? It got banned from OU with a crazy high majority, and in general threats are more broken in Mono than in OU due to the building restrictions. Seems like it would be worth a discussion at the very least. Although I do agree that overall this is definitely the most balanced this meta has been in recent memory, so props to the council.

I can see your point but I'd advise to not use different metas when suggesting a suspect. OU has its own problems dealing with stuff. We have an overall better system here imo

 

[TheAce22]

I can see your point but I'd advise to not use different metas when suggesting a suspect. OU has its own problems dealing with stuff. We have an overall better system here imo

You realize we use OU's defintions of unhealthy, uncompetitive, or broken so I wouldn't really be calling ours a better overall system :P. Anyways for my thoughts on Landorus-I It's a great killer in the back that can get off huge hits due to Sheer Force but as Acast said it's very limited in options in Monotype. Everyone basically just runs E power, sludge wave, psychic/focus blast, gravity/focus blast. While some people do use Rock Slide its pretty rare considering you would already have things such as Excadrill or Garchomp. Although some types do struggle with it, notably steel or poision being the worst in my opinion, its not strong to the point where it should be banned nor suspected.

 

[darkrai147]

I can see your point but I'd advise to not use different metas when suggesting a suspect. OU has its own problems dealing with stuff. We have an overall better system here imo

I wasn't suggesting a suspect, and I wasn't trying to compare the styles of ban processes either (although now that you bring it up, they are pretty much identical). I was just pointing out that offensive threats are usually harder to deal with in Monotype than OU (Zard X, Talonflame, Metagross, Altaria, etc) so it stands to reason that Lando getting banned in OU should raise a red flag for Mono, but the points that Acast and Articuno made make sense.
Anyway, if we're still looking for stuff to talk about, the only other thing I have a problem with is Mega Pinsir. It can sweep a high majority of types, off the top of my head: Grass, Fighting, Water, Bug(awkward mirror match), Ice. I'm pretty sure there are others but that is already more than Talonflame was banned for. I know I've brought Pinsir up before but I still strongly feel its broken in this metagame, given its truly solid counters (Skarmory and Zapdos are the main ones I'm aware of) only exist on two or three types tops.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

...here we go again. Guys please, different metas are well, uhm, different. No point on talking what Ubers think of M-Sab or how viable is Shedinja on UU and then trying to correlate it to mono. Just stay on topic, that's all.

Yeah sadly we are using OU's "philosophy" now but that was just recently implemented. We could be/were better than that.

 

[scpinion]

To be fair, we opted to go with OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy because they provide a clear framework for discussion. I think those definitions apply across all metagames.

We also augmented that philosophy with 3 additional components unique to monotype.

 

[Arash]

I wasn't suggesting a suspect, and I wasn't trying to compare the styles of ban processes either (although now that you bring it up, they are pretty much identical). I was just pointing out that offensive threats are usually harder to deal with in Monotype than OU (Zard X, Talonflame, Metagross, Altaria, etc) so it stands to reason that Lando getting banned in OU should raise a red flag for Mono, but the points that Acast and Articuno made make sense.
Anyway, if we're still looking for stuff to talk about, the only other thing I have a problem with is Mega Pinsir. It can sweep a high majority of types, off the top of my head: Grass, Fighting, Water, Bug(awkward mirror match), Ice. I'm pretty sure there are others but that is already more than Talonflame was banned for. I know I've brought Pinsir up before but I still strongly feel its broken in this metagame, given its truly solid counters (Skarmory and Zapdos are the main ones I'm aware of) only exist on two or three types tops.

care to explain how mega-pinsir can sweep a "high majority" of types? Rotom-W (water), Avalugg (ice) and Cloyster (water and ice) are found on a lot of teams and stop Mega-Pinsir pretty handily...

Also, this discussion took place many pages ago, but Mega-Pinsir is different from Talonflame in a few key aspects:

- Mega-Pinsir can only be used on Bug, which limits the amount of matches you would ever see it in, and that's if the Bug user doesn't want Mega-Scizor or Mega-Heracross instead (compared to Talonflame, which was found on every single Fire and Flying team)
- Mega-Pinsir eats up your mega-slot, Tflame does not
- Talonflame not only has stronger priority than Mega-Pinsir, but has a secondary STAB that roasts steel types (Mega-Pinsir must rely on non-STAB EQ and CC, and can only run one of these which leaves it vulnerable to steels that aren't covered by its coverage move)

There's more, but I don't see Mega-Pinsir being suspected anytime soon

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Eh, to be honest if there's anything I would call out Lando-I for being too good on is providing Gravity support on ground teams breaking even flying sp def walls. Other than that I agree with the rest of the guys saying Landorus doesn't need a suspect, really not that ban-worthy.

Tbh I don't really see "Gravity Support" used very often on Mono Ground, I see it used as the best special attacker on the type. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think Gravity is kind of a waste on Ground Teams, as most Flying types will still be able to get by, even after the Gravity. Landorus-Incarnate definitely doesn't deserve a suspect, heaven forbid a ban!

Yay! Replays are back.

Before I come back to read this tonight I would like you guys to open your eyes and see exactly how broken Sableye is. Even vs Fairy, Sableye freely burns every switch to make them not be switch ins any more. Sableye is so powerful that he freely sets up Calm Minds and proceeds to body bag the type with Dark Pulse finches and crits. Like seriously, how is this thing still in the meta?

If it wasn't for Sableye being so slow, Gardevoir would have swept. However, Sableye was able to stall out Trick Room against the likes of a Mega-Gardevoir. Sableye walls Trick Room Mega-Gardevoir and prevents Fairy to sweep Dark, therefore it is broken

Pls ban

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-294630227

Sableye isn't really broken. In the replay you had, you had your Mega Gardevoir use Trick Room on a Sableye who was about to Mega Evolve, which basically debunks your "flinches and crits" thing, as it going first greatly increased the chance of that happening. All of your opponent's Mono Dark team was not outspeed by Mega Gardevoir, so basically you ensured that your Garde would go last and get hit. I'm not sure why you let the Mega Sableye set up anyway, and that's the argument of many pro-ban Sableye critics. You should never let any setup sweeper set up because in my opinion, that isn't a very valid reason to ban a Pokemon.

 

[Omega-Xis]

Tbh I don't really see "Gravity Support" used very often on Mono Ground, I see it used as the best special attacker on the type. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think Gravity is kind of a waste on Ground Teams, as most Flying types will still be able to get by, even after the Gravity. Landorus-Incarnate definitely doesn't deserve a suspect, heaven forbid a ban!

Sableye isn't really broken. In the replay you had, you had your Mega Gardevoir use Trick Room on a Sableye who was about to Mega Evolve, which basically debunks your "flinches and crits" thing, as it going first greatly increased the chance of that happening. All of your opponent's Mono Dark team was not outspeed by Mega Gardevoir, so basically you ensured that your Garde would go last and get hit. I'm not sure why you let the Mega Sableye set up anyway, and that's the argument of many pro-ban Sableye critics. You should never let any setup sweeper set up because in my opinion, that isn't a very valid reason to ban a Pokemon.

Given that he voted "Do Not Ban," I don't think he meant that post to be taken seriously in the slightest.