Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[thesecondbest]

And Anttya shared a spread I didn't find.
This spread was really good and it's allowed M- Alaria easily booster mostly.
Perhaps someone get it yet?

All I wanted say is check before say there aren't replays,...

First one: guy sets up dual screens for no reason then gets salty
Second: if ditto had min happiness you get counter swept
Third: ok here he cant do much to beat it but if he had saved gardevoir and gone to that after twaving instead of latios then hyper voice + psyshock annihilate the rest of the team. Also proves that twave is more broken than altaria, its so centralizing you have to run heal bell
Fourth: He stays in with alo too long, going to tenta first would easily stop the sweep.
Fifth: he lets hippo die instead of saving it to whirlwind alt out
Sixth: one again ditto has max happiness and he still kills alt, although crit mattered to be fair
Seventh: once again ditto has max happiness. This is a 50-50 scenario, half the time you get counter swept if they have min happiness
Eighth: like he said, empoleon died too early
Ninth: Twave is more broken than altaria
Tenth: gets a min roll on stone edge and goes to cradily instead of rhyperior first, whose standard ou spread 2hko's alt with ice punch
Eleventh: ok i see why dragon has an issue with alt, i'll concede this one to you
Twelth: The guy sacs his zard x and he has an arcticuno
Overall altaria doesn't sweep from team preview, it has counters in most types, and of course anything can sweep when its counters are gone. Normal ditto's should start running half happiness. You will still beat the altarias and pinsirs that have boosted even if you don't sweep the rest of the team (after rocks +1 return from half happiness kills, and +2 pinsir kills itself). People could have played much better in these replays to avoid the sweep.

 

[Josh]

First one: guy sets up dual screens for no reason then gets salty
Second: if ditto had min happiness you get counter swept
Third: ok here he cant do much to beat it but if he had saved gardevoir and gone to that after twaving instead of latios then hyper voice + psyshock annihilate the rest of the team. Also proves that twave is more broken than altaria, its so centralizing you have to run heal bell
Fourth: He stays in with alo too long, going to tenta first would easily stop the sweep.
Fifth: he lets hippo die instead of saving it to whirlwind alt out
Sixth: one again ditto has max happiness and he still kills alt, although crit mattered to be fair
Seventh: once again ditto has max happiness. This is a 50-50 scenario, half the time you get counter swept if they have min happiness
Eighth: like he said, empoleon died too early
Ninth: Twave is more broken than altaria
Tenth: gets a min roll on stone edge and goes to cradily instead of rhyperior first, whose standard ou spread 2hko's alt with ice punch
Eleventh: ok i see why dragon has an issue with alt, i'll concede this one to you
Twelth: The guy sacs his zard x and he has an arcticuno
Overall altaria doesn't sweep from team preview, it has counters in most types, and of course anything can sweep when its counters are gone. Normal ditto's should start running half happiness. You will still beat the altarias and pinsirs that have boosted even if you don't sweep the rest of the team (after rocks +1 return from half happiness kills, and +2 pinsir kills itself). People could have played much better in these replays to avoid the sweep.

"Also proves that twave is more broken than altaria, its so centralizing you have to run heal bell"
"Twave is more broken than altaria"
lol?

"it has counters in most types"
Please, explain to me what counters Electric/Dragon/Fighting/Dark/Fire have. Normal literally loses no matter what you do if you don't have ditto, and ditto is a soft counter at best. Water is pretty much autolose as well.

And in all of those 'explanations' you gave, you are assuming that both a) the opponents know the set M-alt is running, and b) play perfectly based on that information. I'd like you to link your most recent battle where I can tell you exactly what you did wrong to lose and how you could have won.

 

[thesecondbest]

"Also proves that twave is more broken than altaria, its so centralizing you have to run heal bell"
"Twave is more broken than altaria"
lol?

"it has counters in most types"
Please, explain to me what counters Electric/Dragon/Fighting/Dark/Fire have. Normal literally loses no matter what you do if you don't have ditto, and ditto is a soft counter at best. Water is pretty much autolose as well.

And in all of those 'explanations' you gave, you are assuming that both a) the opponents know the set M-alt is running, and b) play perfectly based on that information. I'd like you to link your most recent battle where I can tell you exactly what you did wrong to lose and how you could have won.

In all of them after statusing it they stay in with their wall for like five more turns instead of going to a nuke to kill it.
And yeah twave is stupidly broken. I showed that fighting and dark have counters, fire beats this given set with most things since it doesnt have eq, electric can twave it, then volt switch out to mag as altaria reveals heal bell. Then they know it doesnt have eq so they can go to mag and kill it. Dragon has dragalge, but I agree dragon has a tough time with it. But it needs to beat three types, and in that aspect it is less broken than jirachi, which beats two. Water can beat it if they use this move called ice beam instead of trying for scald burns, and tentacruel and empoleon beat altaria.

 

[Whydon]

I wouldn't say Mega Altaria with Cotton Guard sweeps Fairy teams. You can always run Unaware Clefable, and it isn't even a niche because Unaware Clefable is actually very good on bulky Fairy teams with screen support.

 

[thesecondbest]

I wouldn't say Mega Altaria with Cotton Guard sweeps Fairy teams. You can always run Unaware Clefable, and it isn't even a niche because Unaware Clefable is actually very good on bulky Fairy teams with screen support.

or you can run twave since that set doesn't have heal bell! #balanced

 

[truedrew]

So not sure where to post this but will be posting my achieving reqs here http://prntscr.com/7zamn0

Not to make this a senseless post, i would like to talk about my experience laddering to reqs.

Using flying/psychic/dragon teams, to ladder i noticed that above the lower ladder most teams (bug,flying,psychic,steel,water) were harder to set up on as they have a lot of pressure/checks to m-alt thus making it seem that it was playing a backpacking role. Apart from that i was really surprised that many of the flying teams i saw did not usually run mega altaria as zard x is so important in checking that genesect (more on that later) that altaria is not needed to be used as flying has so many win-cons its great and a very diverse type to use which makes it nice n fun to use but a challenge to face at the same time.

Onto my observations:
Genesect is really good like really good on bug. The pressure that is put by genesect on so many types is insane. i mean alongside sticky webs and SR it pressures so many types its crayz
Flying- SR+ Bolt Beam gen is cancerous to face as if not zard-x then something takes a massive amount every time it switches in
Ice- Iron head+ Flamethrower= GG (tbolt for walrein)
Fire-Rofl it does jack here but keeps up momentum as it can ko torkoal with tbolt and harasses in general
Rock-Read ice except it can run energy ball
Steel- Heatran is number one counter/check but if tis taken down then have fun tanking those flame throwers although steel with its hazards almost always wins vs steel (outpressures it)
Grass- Read ice/Rock also it has u-turn to harass although mega venu comfortably takes it on (almost always unless max attack u-turn +1 attack)
Water- tentacruel+lanturn can be worn out but they do a good job as most things can live tbolt/energy ball and ko back also scarf keldeo just owns it
Normal- Can be annoying but gets rofld by chans-pory core also can be checked by mega lop (takes any hit) otw its okay vs normal
Fairy- Rofl iron head (not seen fary at all as of late) but klefki can twave azumarill lives and bops

you get the idea genesect shits on a lot with its team support so i feel that it fits the criteria numbers 1,2 and 3 thus i feel that although altarianite is the suspect, genesect is the true monster as it has the usage, it ruins so many types with its team support as with mega pinsir it just crushes shit ez and becomes auto win once just a 1-2 pokemon are taken down and it does burden team building to an extent as any successful flying team has to have a genesect check or they straight up lose (although many megas are checks some how ;~;) even ice (lol), grass, and rock to an extent can be swept clean.
Thus ban genesect to insure that bug is not too op as mega pinsir is very very good rn as well (others have stated why so yeah)

Zard X- dont even need to try it has like 2 counters and a few checks only depending on the set- Altaria-mega Counter (lmao) Heatran-Check Thick Fat Azumarill- Counter and thats all i can think of atm (niche counters are well possible but for simplicities sake lets just be real and talk about usage/team matchup etc) this thing on flying is OP plain and simple like just straight up remove it.

If nerfing flying further i am open to a zapdos being reintroduced as a test to see whether or not its needed as it helps flying patch up what these megas were useful for (although if gen is banned then no need for zap unban)

lastly i got a unique mega altaria set which is super bulky and can set up and live so much random shit that i wonder how i even got it

New Meta (Altaria) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 128 HP / 68 Atk / 120 Def / 96 SpD / 96 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Frustration
- Heal Bell/Refresh

So at first the eves and nature seem super weird but what these eves do is give you 323/317/270 bulk on your mega alt which means that you have fabulous mixed bulk and can live loads of random shit thus allowing you to set up easily on many things etc sweep ez. The only difference in this set is that it has an easier time setting up vs a wider variety of things due to your new found bulk. Refresh is a valid option if your team does not mind the status. Pair it with healing wish lati and you have a great core. On flying just remove/damage opposing checks and you win with this aswell

 

[Freeroamer]

Identification thread is up for those who have reqs: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-suspect-identification-thread.3545803/

Remember you have until the 12th of August 11:59PM EST to get your reqs, happy laddering!

 

[ArkenCiel]

Yeah! I know what I'm looking forward to! July's Monotype stats! scpinion woop! woop!

So I looked over Dragon's "win rates" and it had stupidly high numbers for both Electric and Fire, 78.0% and 79.0% respectively, and had clearly favored match ups for Grass and Poison. However, all of these types would have a rough time against Dragons even without Altaria (Kyurem would be the suspect for 3 of those and helps against Fire, but don't ban that). You could say that this isn't a reason to NOT BAN Altaria, and true, but I'm just starting off by saying that these favorable match-ups for Dragon is NOT Altaria's fault alone.

With that out of the way, I'd now like to point out the lack of a positive match up against Fighting and Dark in my previous statement. I've briefly skimmed past the months and their numbers are usually between 55%-60% in Dragon's favor. You can see it favor Dragon there a little, but the keyword here is a little. With how IMPOSSIBLE people make the match-up out to be, I'd have expected the numbers to be very skewed, much more than just barely "a good match-up".

Two other relevant match ups I can think of are Altaria vs Psychic and Normal. Well, Psychic apparently wins 65% of the time against Dragons (the range for Psychic winning is 60-73% in the subsequent months). They can thank Mew, Gardevoir as either Scarf or Mega, Slowbro's TWave, and any of the part-Steel Psychic Pokemon. I don't really think Psychic is in trouble if it's prepared and players not being prepared shouldn't be a reason to ban Mega Altaria. Normal has an okay match-up with Dragon. It wins 51-60% of the time against Dragon. With walls like Porygon and Chansey, it's pretty difficult to break with the lack of Knock Off. Add Ditto on top of that and Mega Audino if you want to 6-0 Dragons. ):

These last two paragraphs -^ could just be disregarded if you don't believe the numbers to accurately portray Altaria's brokenness, and that's fine, but surely they're not entirely meaningless and I hope I could have at least staved off some animosity you hold (if any) towards Altaria's stay for Dragon.

I've neglected discussion of Flying and I'll get to that now, but I have no experience using Altaria on Flying and little experience fighting against one. That last part is actually something I want to draw your attention to, "little experience fighting against one." Recently, Altaria-mega has only had 12%-9% usage on Flying, and uhh, not too sure how this became a huge concern, but fair enough. It can create a problematic core on Flying.

Altaria is problematic and I acknowledge that. Everyone can agree that it's a great sweeper and is clearly a threat, but I don't think that's enough to call for a ban. I sort of only discussed win and usage rates in this, but I'd be glad to try and carry on the discussion from a different angle. cri I hope I'm not alone and receive back up.

 

[Dece1t]

Yeah! I know what I'm looking forward to! July's Monotype stats! scpinion woop! woop!

So I looked over Dragon's "win rates" and it had stupidly high numbers for both Electric and Fire, 78.0% and 79.0% respectively, and had clearly favored match ups for Grass and Poison. However, all of these types would have a rough time against Dragons even without Altaria (Kyurem would be the suspect for 3 of those and helps against Fire, but don't ban that). You could say that this isn't a reason to NOT BAN Altaria, and true, but I'm just starting off by saying that these favorable match-ups for Dragon is NOT Altaria's fault alone.

With that out of the way, I'd now like to point out the lack of a positive match up against Fighting and Dark in my previous statement. I've briefly skimmed past the months and their numbers are usually between 55%-60% in Dragon's favor. You can see it favor Dragon there a little, but the keyword here is a little. With how IMPOSSIBLE people make the match-up out to be, I'd have expected the numbers to be very skewed, much more than just barely "a good match-up".

Two other relevant match ups I can think of are Altaria vs Psychic and Normal. Well, Psychic apparently wins 65% of the time against Dragons (the range for Psychic winning is 60-73% in the subsequent months). They can thank Mew, Gardevoir as either Scarf or Mega, Slowbro's TWave, and any of the part-Steel Psychic Pokemon. I don't really think Psychic is in trouble if it's prepared and players not being prepared shouldn't be a reason to ban Mega Altaria. Normal has an okay match-up with Dragon. It wins 51-60% of the time against Dragon. With walls like Porygon and Chansey, it's pretty difficult to break with the lack of Knock Off. Add Ditto on top of that and Mega Audino if you want to 6-0 Dragons. ):

These last two paragraphs -^ could just be disregarded if you don't believe the numbers to accurately portray Altaria's brokenness, and that's fine, but surely they're not entirely meaningless and I hope I could have at least staved off some animosity you hold (if any) towards Altaria's stay for Dragon.

I've neglected discussion of Flying and I'll get to that now, but I have no experience using Altaria on Flying and little experience fighting against one. That last part is actually something I want to draw your attention to, "little experience fighting against one." Recently, Altaria-mega has only had 12%-9% usage on Flying, and uhh, not too sure how this became a huge concern, but fair enough. It can create a problematic core on Flying.

Altaria is problematic and I acknowledge that. Everyone can agree that it's a great sweeper and is clearly a threat, but I don't think that's enough to call for a ban. I sort of only discussed win and usage rates in this, but I'd be glad to try and carry on the discussion from a different angle. cri I hope I'm not alone and receive back up.

Preach!!!! xD But yea dude, stole the words out of my mouth, but, im not a great speaker, thanks for that.

 

[Monotip]

Identification thread is up for those who have reqs: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-suspect-identification-thread.3545803/

Remember you have until the 12th of August 11:59PM EST to get your reqs, happy laddering!

I love that we're finally doing a suspect, but I see a possible problem if people give their votes on this thread. It could derail us from actual discussion with a bunch of posts with just their vote. Can we get a separate place for qualified players to vote, and if they feel the need to justify their vote they can tell us here?

 

[scpinion]

I love that we're finally doing a suspect, but I see a possible problem if people give their votes on this thread. It could derail us from actual discussion with a bunch of posts with just their vote. Can we get a separate place for qualified players to vote, and if they feel the need to justify their vote they can tell us here?

Let's go ahead and get this out of the way so it isn't in limbo any more.

Once you've made reqs, post proof in the voter identification thread Freeroamer posted.
DO NOT POST YOUR VOTE IN EITHER THREAD!

In order for the votes to be blind (i.e. you can't see what other people voted until after the results are announced) those of you that make reqs will be pm'ing your vote to me here on Smogon. I will post in the voter id thread with specific instructions on how to submit your vote when that time comes. For now, just hang tight once you've made reqs.

If you have questions about the suspect process feel free to start a pm with the council members. We will happily answer your questions there so this thread can be kept for discussion.

edit: clarity

 

[Argus2Spooky]

I'm curious about this...
If this is something you guys are making the effort to do every month then I'd consider adding that analysis to the website, where it could be scripted. I'm not sure I completely understand what it is saying (or what you're calculating) right now though. Could you (or Arken) elaborate on it a bit?

It was a half-assed attempt to find the win rate on the ladder, based on how common each type was and win rates. So for bug, I did something along the lines of:
(Bug's win rate against Dark x Dark's Usage) + (Bug's win rate against Dragon x Dragon's Usage) + ... With everyone type but itself. Then to account for itself, you would need a range of ± half of Bugs own usage on the ladder. If I'm not shitty at math, that should give a win rate for each type on the ladder based on usage. So bug might win 77.60% against grass, but since its less common, it gets a lower value.

 

[vanderlylic]

It was a half-assed attempt to find the win rate on the ladder, based on how common each type was and win rates. So for bug, I did something along the lines of:
(Bug's win rate against Dark x Dark's Usage) + (Bug's win rate against Dragon x Dragon's Usage) + ... With everyone type but itself. Then to account for itself, you would need a range of ± half of Bugs own usage on the ladder. If I'm not shitty at math, that should give a win rate for each type on the ladder based on usage. So bug might win 77.60% against grass, but since its less common, it gets a lower value.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-84#post-6261512

Correct me if I wrong, but I'm pretty sure that is what I attempted to do in the above post in the old thread. It was decided however that the information wasn't very accurate or useful.

 

[Acast]

I don't see how usage has any impact whatsoever on win rate. Regardless of how often something is used, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. Less usage just means you have fewer instances of the type being used on the ladder, so you don't have as many instances to calculate the win rate for a Rock team as you would for a Bug team. But that still doesn't change how often Rock teams win. The only thing that might impact win rate is how high on the ladder the battle is taking place, which scpinion has already accounted for with the weighted statistics.

 

[Fírnen]

So, perhaps people will do some face palms after read this analyse about M-Altaria, it's just my opinion, so don't insult me and be indulgent about my English, thanks.


Why M-Altaria should be banned in Dragons teams?

→ Him double type is really good and gives him some huge advantages to some types like Dark, Electric mainly.

→ Cures moves like Heal Bell, Roost, Refresh with a decent bulk even if there is better bulk than this.

→ He can avoid T-Wave if M-Altaria is played with EQ with Garchomp (Except T-Wave from Slowbro, Brace yourself, Scald is coming)


Why M-Altaria shouldn't be banned in Dragons Teams?

→ M-Altaria is the one viable user of Heal Bell (Dnite is more efficient as wallbreakers).

→ M-Altaria has the same weaknesses of Dragon except him immunity to dragon of course. Only Kyurem has neutral damage to Ice.

→ You've to chose between 2 offensives moves for coverage or only one move with Heal Bell. Only Frustration is useless in some games. And if you don't have Heal Bell, T-Wave, Toxic and WoW are good way to kill it. (Latias can, of course, give him a new life in the case where Heal Bell isn't in the moveset).


What's the difference with Flying?
The main difference is:

→ Support, in contrast of dragon type, Flying have more support Pokemons. You can so easily play 2 offensives moves and sweep more teams without fear status issues.

→ Poison immunity or resistance (Skarmory, Gliscor (both with recovery moves), Landorus, Landorus-T in contrast with Garchomp with no recovery moves (except Rest)).

→ Steel resistance: Skarmory, M-Zard Y, M-Zard X , Gliscor in contrast with Kingdra???.

→ M-Altaria gives more resistance to Electric for Flying they need. Gliscor, Lando, Thundurus-T, M-Zard X. Neutral damage to Rock moves (They are already enough resistance (=neutral) to rock).

Are they a way to counter M-Altaria?

→ Steel: ... Perhaps steel Pokemons?

→ Fighting: Cobalion is the best check. T-Wave and Iron Head are the best solution to kill M-Altaria. In addition with HO way to play Fighting type: M-Gallade, Lucario and Keldeo Spec with ice move prevent M-Altaria to boost himself. Even Toxicroak can be an solution.

→ Dragon: Kyurem Scarf is a good way to kill M-Altaria. Latios is able to do it too with Ice Beam.

→ Electric: Magnezone is the only way. Even if you opponent isn't stupid and bring back M-Altaria. The difference here: It's a good way to flying to kill Electric Mons... For Dragon...

Do u really think you'll lose because the dragon team has M-Altaria??? Let's be realistic please.

→ Water: Slowbro T-Wave, Alomomola Toxic, Tentacruel Acid Spray, Ice Beam everywhere (Cause you play against Dragon and Flying, so it prevents to boost yourself), Empoleon,...

→ Fairy: Fairy type is enough to kill Dragon teams but not for Flying!!!! New difference between Dragon and Flying. (Just to answer to people "M-Altaria +2 rekt fairy" Ok, let's admit you boost your M-Altaria in a Dragon team, do you know something called Clefable Unaware?).

→ Fire: It's a similar reasoning than Electric. Dragon against Fire is a bad matchup, not for Flying. You won't lose against dragon because your opponent use M-Altaria...

→ Ice: Happy IceBeam, Icicle Crash, Ice Shard guys.

→ Bug: (M-)Scizor, Genesect, Foretress.

→ Normal: Counter to I've seen, Normal aren't really rekt by M-Altaria, especially when you play Ditto, Bulky Raptor, Porygon2, Toxic or T-Wave chansey before send Diggersby Band to send some OHKO (252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 297-351 (96.7 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO).
Normal have enough to counter M-Altaria.

→ Grass: M-Venu, Ferro, Amoonguss, Whimiscott.

→ Poison: Poison Pokemons perhaps?

→ Psychic: Slowbro, (M-)Gardevoir(-Scarf), Jirachi, Metagross, ...

→ Rock: M-Aggron, Omastar, Diancie(-Mega).

→ Ground: Happy Excadrill, Gliscor Taunt, M-Steelix, Nidoqueen/king, Landorus

→ Ghost: Aegislash, Doublade, Gengar.

→ Dark: Here is our real problem with M-Altaria. It's the type with it handle M-Altaria is very difficult of impossible.
But: Weavile is something! Against dragon, only Kyurem-B can counter him, and you've Tyranitar with Rocks to kill Kyurem-B step by step.
With flying... You will have more trouble (Skarmory, M-Zard X, Articuno).

→ Flying: Skarmory, Togekiss, ...

Some replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-255016256 Against Saehttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-255016074 Against Prosaic

Ps: Because have replay in low ladd is even useless than speak to a deaf.
I'll try to give more replays against good guys and others types.

My final thought:
I think M-Altaria really give trouble to Fire, Electric and Dark.
Like I showed, Fire and Electric are one of worst matchup against Dragon, ban M-Altaria from Dragon won't make easier the fight against Dragons...

I think ban M-Altaria from flying should be the best.

But that's just my opinion.


Thanks for have read me if you did and not have skip all I said.

 

[ed wins]

Shouldn't we be encouraging people here to ladder for reqs with mono Flying or Dragon to help formulate their opinions? Sure, discussions help change views, but I'm coming into this suspect test with the intention to ban Mega-Altaria on Flying, but not on Dragon. Nothing that I have witnessed in this supposed suspect test has changed my opinion on this, as I have only come across two Mega-Altarias on Dragon, both of which were not problematic to me (RIP type match ups).

 

[Crazy Horse]

I haven't been ignoring this...just getting things set up for the alt suspect!

I prefer the type-only ban for Charizardite X because it meets two of our suspect criteria on Flying, opposed to arguably meeting the first requirement on Fire.

Zard X is hard to handle for a number of types, regardless of what team it is on (1st criteria). However, the strategies these types have for beating it are significantly more effective in the matchup vs. Fire.

Electric is an excellent example of this. Once the CharX is para'd, it is neutered for the rest of the match. No need to worry about a Heal Bell user coming in and giving it another chance to sweep (Flareon is not viable imo).

For Ghost, once they set SR Torkoal can't spin and people aren't running Defog ZardX on Fire (or at least I view that as a waste). SR vs. a Fire team is a lasting advantage and the Ghost user can capitalize by forcing switches w/ its bulky core. If they don't have something to deal w/ a +1 Zard, then that is on them.

DD Zard X w/ EQ + a Fire move pretty much 6-0's Steel when it is on a Flying team. It does the same on Fire, but that matchup already has Infernape, which is just as big of a problem for Steel to deal with. The match up is not tilted solely because Zard X is there.

Bug, Grass, and Ice are a similar story to Steel...they were already going to struggle with Fire regardless of Zard X. In fact, Zard Y can be more troublesome for them in some cases.

All the stuff I just listed goes out the window when Zard X is on a Flying team, which allows it to meet the 1st criteria. Electric can't reliably para. Ghost can't keep Flying from Defogging. Steel now has another "auto-lose" 'mon/matchup. This is paired with its amazing ability to soak up electric/ice attacks for the rest of the team, which opens up the 4th criteria as a reason to suspect. I don't think anyone will argue the Flying core w/ Zard X is excellent.

If we were discussing Zard X within the context of the 3rd criteria, then I would wholly support a global ban, but I don't view it as broken by that criteria atm.

I'm getting tired of this flying hate tbh. Zard X is the only mega that carries fighting after mega altaria ban then it's basically sent back to Gen V's HO Cluster F***

These tiering decisions just keep bringing down other playstyles except for : HO

Seriously. You guys unbanned a bunch of pokes that shit on the soul of stall and balance alike then took a year banning them again when we could've been making actual progress. Mega-Sableye has been swept under the rug even though he beats an entire playstyle(stall) w/ support from umbreon. Seriously, few types can play stall viably with it around. I'm not saying ban it I just wish people would look into it more.

Stall Flying for example: I mentioned how mega-sab is kind of impossible with only hope being pressure zapdos. Someone told me to use flare blitz chari-x.... on a STALL team. Ok this was just a little rant before going into my real post but damn chari-x on stall team shouldn't ever have blitz :I


Ok scp time to break your post down

Zard X is hard to handle for a number of types, regardless of what team it is on (1st criteria). However, the strategies these types have for beating it are significantly more effective in the matchup vs. Fire.

Hard to handle isn't a reason to ban, but let's do this. He needs an autowin against 3 types. Now remember auto-win essentially means There's little to nothing the opposing team can do about losing.

Electric can para chari-x and from there have to focus on pressuring flying's heal bell user (Togekiss) which while it is a challenge is completely possible with it being weak to STAB and elec having access to volt switch and U-Turn also good taunt users. So how exactly does it auto win? After the para is done it has to shift to a focused playstyle but it is winnable and I bet the Elec user that makes all the right plays feels godlike when he finally beats it. I think that is a healthy and competitive way to deal with a threat. Maybe most of you are used to the logic "X pokemon beats Y & A walls B", but this laziness just irkes me. Use your brain cells! Make Plays! Stop going on the forums and crying because you have to think.

Ghost, my my my. This actually is one of ghost's biggest threats. However! There are ways uncle Rorschach here is gonna teach ya.
>Scarf Gengar.
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 151-178 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 196-231 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Haze Toxic Cofagrigus
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 238-282 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>Haze Dusclops (Pain Split, Toxic, Oh and it can learn counter :])
> While Mega Bannette is shady it allows a poke on ghost to revenge kill chari with T-wave & confuse ray but can troll with S-Punch and shadow sneak
I'll admit it's really shaky but running haze on a poke that can take atleast 1 hit from chari-x helps the situation. and golurk can revenge kill it
Also Aegislash gives chari-x a nasty 50/50 if running Air Balloon - Cheers

Steel DOES NOT auto-lose to Chari-X
Can you not ever say that non-sense again. Unlike the types above it has a reliable check that KOs back. >Air Balloon Heatran
An offensive AB Empoleon can hit chari-x hard as hell.
Rocky Helmet Ferro is very annoying to chari-X and lights up.
Doublade is a soft check being able to d-bond and/or landing a toxic at the very least.
Lucario can R-Kill if it's heavily lit
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 101-120 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As a previous poster said before grass vs chari-x can go either way. It can get swept but rocky helmet ferro puts it in kill range of checks(Shiftry, Serperior, Scarf Virizion, Unexpected S-Punch from cacturne). Don't think it's an auto-win and tbh for grass to have a viable way to beat arguably it's biggest threat says something.

Ice has Mamoswine, Piloswine and even based avalugg.

Bug has Pinsir and Red Card Forretress, Armaldo, Crustle and Scarf Durant

These are just about the only types that struggle to kill chari-x, the rest handle it fine via Absolute Check or Absolute Counter

Guys I know it can be hard for beginning players to handle big threats like Chari-X but this exaggeration on it's abilities and level of strain on balance it puts on the tier is getting ridiculous

Chari-X is a positive presence in the tier keeping pokes in check and is a defining member of the tier.
The only way it can centralizes other teams is forcing you to:

Offense
-> Run a scarfed 'mon faster than 100 bst that has the capability of killing Chari-x
-> Strong Priority user
-> Cripple
Balance
-> Strong Priority user
-> Wall that wears it down enough for revenge kill(rocky helmet)
-> Cripple
Stall
-> Wall that wears it down enough for revenge kill
-> Counter that optionally soft counters Chari-Y
-> Haze
-> Cripple

Those are can be applied to many other 'mons so I yet to see how Chari-X is broken when the only types it even reaches close to an auto-win is Ghost and Grass.
tl;dr QQ Less Chari-X is healthy and balanced

 

[ed wins]

I'm getting tired of this flying hate tbh. Zard X is the only mega that carries fighting after mega altaria ban then it's basically sent back to Gen V's HO Cluster F***

These tiering decisions just keep bringing down other playstyles except for : HO

Seriously. You guys unbanned a bunch of pokes that shit on the soul of stall and balance alike then took a year banning them again when we could've been making actual progress. Mega-Sableye has been swept under the rug even though he beats an entire playstyle(stall) w/ support from umbreon. Seriously, few types can play stall viably with it around. I'm not saying ban it I just wish people would look into it more.

Stall Flying for example: I mentioned how mega-sab is kind of impossible with only hope being pressure zapdos. Someone told me to use flare blitz chari-x.... on a STALL team. Ok this was just a little rant before going into my real post but damn chari-x on stall team shouldn't ever have blitz :I


Ok scp time to break your post down


Hard to handle isn't a reason to ban, but let's do this. He needs an autowin against 3 types. Now remember auto-win essentially means There's little to nothing the opposing team can do about losing.

Electric can para chari-x and from there have to focus on pressuring flying's heal bell user (Togekiss) which while it is a challenge is completely possible with it being weak to STAB and elec having access to volt switch and U-Turn also good taunt users. So how exactly does it auto win? After the para is done it has to shift to a focused playstyle but it is winnable and I bet the Elec user that makes all the right plays feels godlike when he finally beats it. I think that is a healthy and competitive way to deal with a threat. Maybe most of you are used to the logic "X pokemon beats Y & A walls B", but this laziness just irkes me. Use your brain cells! Make Plays! Stop going on the forums and crying because you have to think.

Ghost, my my my. This actually is one of ghost's biggest threats. However! There are ways uncle Rorschach here is gonna teach ya.
>Scarf Gengar.
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 151-178 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 196-231 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Haze Toxic Cofagrigus
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 238-282 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>Haze Dusclops (Pain Split, Toxic, Oh and it can learn counter :])
> While Mega Bannette is shady it allows a poke on ghost to revenge kill chari with T-wave & confuse ray but can troll with S-Punch and shadow sneak
I'll admit it's really shaky but running haze on a poke that can take atleast 1 hit from chari-x helps the situation. and golurk can revenge kill it
Also Aegislash gives chari-x a nasty 50/50 if running Air Balloon - Cheers

Steel DOES NOT auto-lose to Chari-X
Can you not ever say that non-sense again. Unlike the types above it has a reliable check that KOs back. >Air Balloon Heatran
An offensive AB Empoleon can hit chari-x hard as hell.
Rocky Helmet Ferro is very annoying to chari-X and lights up.
Doublade is a soft check being able to d-bond and/or landing a toxic at the very least.
Lucario can R-Kill if it's heavily lit
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 101-120 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As a previous poster said before grass vs chari-x can go either way. It can get swept but rocky helmet ferro puts it in kill range of checks(Shiftry, Serperior, Scarf Virizion, Unexpected S-Punch from cacturne). Don't think it's an auto-win and tbh for grass to have a viable way to beat arguably it's biggest threat says something.

Ice has Mamoswine, Piloswine and even based avalugg.

Bug has Pinsir and Red Card Forretress, Armaldo, Crustle and Scarf Durant

These are just about the only types that struggle to kill chari-x, the rest handle it fine via Absolute Check or Absolute Counter

Guys I know it can be hard for beginning players to handle big threats like Chari-X but this exaggeration on it's abilities and level of strain on balance it puts on the tier is getting ridiculous

Chari-X is a positive presence in the tier keeping pokes in check and is a defining member of the tier.
The only way it can centralizes other teams is forcing you to:

Offense
-> Run a scarfed 'mon faster than 100 bst that has the capability of killing Chari-x
-> Strong Priority user
-> Cripple
Balance
-> Strong Priority user
-> Wall that wears it down enough for revenge kill(rocky helmet)
-> Cripple
Stall
-> Wall that wears it down enough for revenge kill
-> Counter that optionally soft counters Chari-Y
-> Haze
-> Cripple

Those are can be applied to many other 'mons so I yet to see how Chari-X is broken when the only types it even reaches close to an auto-win is Ghost and Grass.
tl;dr QQ Less Chari-X is healthy and balanced

Just a nitpick here. Full stall isn't what it used to be anymore, so a wincon on a stall team is needed to break opossing stall and have an esier time all around with fat teams. I basically have a semi stall bird team Wisp Xzard. If you don't want to use him as your mega, then use RP/CM-I Landorus, as most Mega-Sableyes are psychically defensive, and Sableye cannot set up on Landorus if it is not specially defensive.

 

[thesecondbest]

stuff

You probably don't know that Charizard is extremely bulky with great typing. Even if char-x is para'd, (first of all more proof that twave is broken) electric can't deal with it. I read the rest of that part 5 times and it makes no sense at all.
After the para is done it has to shift to a focused playstyle but it is winnable and I bet the Elec user that makes all the right plays feels godlike when he finally beats it. I think that is a healthy and competitive way to deal with a threat. Maybe most of you are used to the logic "X pokemon beats Y & A walls B", but this laziness just irkes me. Use your brain cells! Make Plays! Stop going on the forums and crying because you have to think.
Shift to a focused playstyle and make godlike plays? that's a healthy and competitive way to beat it? That doesn't even sound like a way at all, just you being rude to the rest of the community. Electric, barring eq from evire or stunfisk (lol) has no way do deal over half to char-x. It literally auto sweeps.

Now Ghost. First off I'd like to point out one of the ways is twave it. Wow twave is balanced! Anyways, bulky char-x, which is the best set imo, beats everything you listed. I use spdef dd wow dragon claw roost. This beats gengar, Banette, aegislash, and can wear down coffin, whose only recovery moves are rest (setup fodder) and pain split. Heal bell support + char x annihilates you. Air balloon heatran does not KO back, Earth power does 60ish, but this is flying mono, the rest of the team thanks you for the free switchin. Even after that your luke can't kill it. Destiny bonding wean you die to burn, plus char is faster so it can easily play around it. Ferro is set up fodder for zard. My spread sets up on your empoleon. Grass, like you said, has to sac stuff and sucker punch, but my set 6-0s barring whimsicott, and even that has no recovery so you die to burn.
Standard flare blitz zard x kills mamo after rocks, Avalugg dies at +1 after rocks and can't touch zard back. Pinsir is slower after a dd, and wow zard beats everything you listed. Bug can't touch it.

Zard is strong, bulky, has support option, has tailwind, sd, and dd, and most importantly, Zard Y is a threat too. To quote OST Finalist ThunderBlunder777, "Zard is just broken man. the fact that you can choose between forms is a game breaking mechanic" (or something to that effect). Zard outclasses altaria (look at their flying usages!) and certainly deserves to go. Altaria looks weak in front of this beast. Only twave can stop this broken pokemon. Ban it plz.
(ban genesect too)

 

[Crazy Horse]

You probably don't know that Charizard is extremely bulky with great typing. Even if char-x is para'd, (first of all more proof that twave is broken) electric can't deal with it. I read the rest of that part 5 times and it makes no sense at all.
After the para is done it has to shift to a focused playstyle but it is winnable and I bet the Elec user that makes all the right plays feels godlike when he finally beats it. I think that is a healthy and competitive way to deal with a threat. Maybe most of you are used to the logic "X pokemon beats Y & A walls B", but this laziness just irkes me. Use your brain cells! Make Plays! Stop going on the forums and crying because you have to think.
Shift to a focused playstyle and make godlike plays? that's a healthy and competitive way to beat it? That doesn't even sound like a way at all, just you being rude to the rest of the community. Electric, barring eq from evire or stunfisk (lol) has no way do deal over half to char-x. It literally auto sweeps.

Now Ghost. First off I'd like to point out one of the ways is twave it. Wow twave is balanced! Anyways, bulky char-x, which is the best set imo, beats everything you listed. I use spdef dd wow dragon claw roost. This beats gengar, Banette, aegislash, and can wear down coffin, whose only recovery moves are rest (setup fodder) and pain split. Heal bell support + char x annihilates you. Air balloon heatran does not KO back, Earth power does 60ish, but this is flying mono, the rest of the team thanks you for the free switchin. Even after that your luke can't kill it. Destiny bonding wean you die to burn, plus char is faster so it can easily play around it. Ferro is set up fodder for zard. My spread sets up on your empoleon. Grass, like you said, has to sac stuff and sucker punch, but my set 6-0s barring whimsicott, and even that has no recovery so you die to burn.
Standard flare blitz zard x kills mamo after rocks, Avalugg dies at +1 after rocks and can't touch zard back. Pinsir is slower after a dd, and wow zard beats everything you listed. Bug can't touch it.

Zard is strong, bulky, has support option, has tailwind, sd, and dd, and most importantly, Zard Y is a threat too. To quote OST Finalist ThunderBlunder777, "Zard is just broken man. the fact that you can choose between forms is a game breaking mechanic" (or something to that effect). Zard outclasses altaria (look at their flying usages!) and certainly deserves to go. Altaria looks weak in front of this beast. Only twave can stop this broken pokemon. Ban it plz.
(ban genesect too)

I never said godlike plays and they aren't. They're very intense and offensive plays, but if played right can feel great. It's just simply keeping the pressure on.
"Elec can't do half to chari" Ok what the actual f- I'm calm now. Uh, Ampharos kills it, done , dead, gone. Evire is a prominent poke so don't try to say that like it's nothing either >_>. Mainly Ampharos though, you know? zeus looking thing? Yeah that. It one shots chari-x.

Um I did keep BulkyChar in mind and it doesn't beat Cofagrigus it's actually laughable. Toxic+will O wisp and ur chari can get mummy ^_^. As for heal bell um, that's where plays come to mind and ghost can double switch to kill toge to prevent heal bell or better yet just spam toxic? Once again ya just gotta think.

Ok so if heatran does 60 to ur bulkyzard what are you gonna do? No matter what you do you lose to heatran.

"Bug can't touch it" Nice rebuttal :I

 

[Argus2Spooky]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-84#post-6261512

Correct me if I wrong, but I'm pretty sure that is what I attempted to do in the above post in the old thread. It was decided however that the information wasn't very accurate or useful.

Yeah, it looks like its the same thing. I didn't consider the effects of the ladder matching system on the data.

I don't see how usage has any impact whatsoever on win rate. Regardless of how often something is used, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. Less usage just means you have fewer instances of the type being used on the ladder, so you don't have as many instances to calculate the win rate for a Rock team as you would for a Bug team. But that still doesn't change how often Rock teams win. The only thing that might impact win rate is how high on the ladder the battle is taking place, which scpinion has already accounted for with the weighted statistics.

Acast, if you read my post I'm not recalculating individual win rates against each type. I'm making an overall win rate for each type on the ladder. Basically, I'm not trying to change what Bug vs. Rock is, I'm trying to find what Bug vs. a random match-up on the ladder is.

 

[Acast]

Yeah, it looks like its the same thing. I didn't consider the effects of the ladder matching system on the data.



Acast, if you read my post I'm not recalculating individual win rates against each type. I'm making an overall win rate for each type on the ladder. Basically, I'm not trying to change what Bug vs. Rock is, I'm trying to find what Bug vs. a random match-up on the ladder is.

Alright I see now and I apologize. I didn't quite understand your wording at first. Although I do think that individual win rates vs each type are still going to be more useful than overall win rates, it's an interesting idea in any case and I it couldn't hurt to have more data.

 

[Tyke]

Evire is a prominent poke so don't try to say that like it's nothing either >_>.

Only band is KOing. Not unfeasible, but I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who runs band E-vire.

Even if char-x is para'd, (first of all more proof that twave is broken) electric can't deal with it.

I really can't stress this enough, but please stop saying Thunder Wave is broken. It's honestly making it difficult for me, and I imagine many other users, to take anything else you say seriously.

 

[scpinion]

I'm getting tired of this flying hate tbh. Zard X is the only mega that carries fighting after mega altaria ban then it's basically sent back to Gen V's HO Cluster F***

These tiering decisions just keep bringing down other playstyles except for : HO

Seriously. You guys unbanned a bunch of pokes that shit on the soul of stall and balance alike then took a year banning them again when we could've been making actual progress. Mega-Sableye has been swept under the rug even though he beats an entire playstyle(stall) w/ support from umbreon. Seriously, few types can play stall viably with it around. I'm not saying ban it I just wish people would look into it more.

Stall Flying for example: I mentioned how mega-sab is kind of impossible with only hope being pressure zapdos. Someone told me to use flare blitz chari-x.... on a STALL team. Ok this was just a little rant before going into my real post but damn chari-x on stall team shouldn't ever have blitz :I


Ok scp time to break your post down


Hard to handle isn't a reason to ban, but let's do this. He needs an autowin against 3 types. Now remember auto-win essentially means There's little to nothing the opposing team can do about losing.

Electric can para chari-x and from there have to focus on pressuring flying's heal bell user (Togekiss) which while it is a challenge is completely possible with it being weak to STAB and elec having access to volt switch and U-Turn also good taunt users. So how exactly does it auto win? After the para is done it has to shift to a focused playstyle but it is winnable and I bet the Elec user that makes all the right plays feels godlike when he finally beats it. I think that is a healthy and competitive way to deal with a threat. Maybe most of you are used to the logic "X pokemon beats Y & A walls B", but this laziness just irkes me. Use your brain cells! Make Plays! Stop going on the forums and crying because you have to think.

Ghost, my my my. This actually is one of ghost's biggest threats. However! There are ways uncle Rorschach here is gonna teach ya.
>Scarf Gengar.
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 151-178 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 196-231 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Haze Toxic Cofagrigus
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 238-282 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
>Haze Dusclops (Pain Split, Toxic, Oh and it can learn counter :])
> While Mega Bannette is shady it allows a poke on ghost to revenge kill chari with T-wave & confuse ray but can troll with S-Punch and shadow sneak
I'll admit it's really shaky but running haze on a poke that can take atleast 1 hit from chari-x helps the situation. and golurk can revenge kill it
Also Aegislash gives chari-x a nasty 50/50 if running Air Balloon - Cheers

Steel DOES NOT auto-lose to Chari-X
Can you not ever say that non-sense again. Unlike the types above it has a reliable check that KOs back. >Air Balloon Heatran
An offensive AB Empoleon can hit chari-x hard as hell.
Rocky Helmet Ferro is very annoying to chari-X and lights up.
Doublade is a soft check being able to d-bond and/or landing a toxic at the very least.
Lucario can R-Kill if it's heavily lit
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 101-120 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As a previous poster said before grass vs chari-x can go either way. It can get swept but rocky helmet ferro puts it in kill range of checks(Shiftry, Serperior, Scarf Virizion, Unexpected S-Punch from cacturne). Don't think it's an auto-win and tbh for grass to have a viable way to beat arguably it's biggest threat says something.

Ice has Mamoswine, Piloswine and even based avalugg.

Bug has Pinsir and Red Card Forretress, Armaldo, Crustle and Scarf Durant

These are just about the only types that struggle to kill chari-x, the rest handle it fine via Absolute Check or Absolute Counter

Guys I know it can be hard for beginning players to handle big threats like Chari-X but this exaggeration on it's abilities and level of strain on balance it puts on the tier is getting ridiculous

Chari-X is a positive presence in the tier keeping pokes in check and is a defining member of the tier.
The only way it can centralizes other teams is forcing you to:

Offense
-> Run a scarfed 'mon faster than 100 bst that has the capability of killing Chari-x
-> Strong Priority user
-> Cripple
Balance
-> Strong Priority user
-> Wall that wears it down enough for revenge kill(rocky helmet)
-> Cripple
Stall
-> Wall that wears it down enough for revenge kill
-> Counter that optionally soft counters Chari-Y
-> Haze
-> Cripple

Those are can be applied to many other 'mons so I yet to see how Chari-X is broken when the only types it even reaches close to an auto-win is Ghost and Grass.
tl;dr QQ Less Chari-X is healthy and balanced

You're entitled to your opinions on Zard X. I view it as broken on Flying, but not Fire. If it was solely up to me we would have suspected it before Altarianite tbh. I'm glad there are people that disagree and it is good to see both sides represented in the thread.

I can respect a good many of those points. Tbh, I used similar arguments for quite some time when we were discussing Greninja, but ended up agreeing with the ban in the long run. However, I strongly disagree w/ this:

Steel DOES NOT auto-lose to Chari-X
Can you not ever say that non-sense again. Unlike the types above it has a reliable check that KOs back. >Air Balloon Heatran

DD Roost Zard X w/ EQ + a Fire move is destroying pretty much every Steel team in existence. All you have to do is pop the (possible) Air Balloon and it is gg. The Air Balloon is just delaying the inevitable in a game between two competent players.
Here's a replay between two of the best players in our community in this match up when there isn't an Air Balloon Heatran: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-249081705

 

[Crazy Horse]

AB Heatran delaying the inevitable? I mean it forces it out and the all you have to do is preserve air balloon. That's a lot easier than what the flying user has to do in forcing you to pop it prematurely. All I'm saying is it isn't auto-win since AB heatran gives steel the fighting chance unlike what talonflame did to fighting