Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings (Under Construction)

[Hootie]

Rotom-Fan should move up to B+/A-. Being one of few reliable Sawk answers on offense is very valuable in the current meta and the lack of Pursuit weakness unlike Rotom is pretty nice. Flying STAB is actually really good right now with Fighting-types being everywhere and the decline of fat Calm Mind users also favors it offensively. More hazard removal mons being added also help out a lot, with Shiftry in particular pairing very well with it, due to it taking care of problematic mons like Rhydon.

Vivillon could also use a bump to A-. For similar reasons it got better with the recent shift thanks to all of the new hazard removal mons. Vivillon just keeps getting better with each shift, as before it had to deal with Magneton, Sneasel picked it off now matter how fast it was, and now it lost one of its best answers in Fletchinder. Near guaranteed Sleep Powder and a very accurate Hurricane is still terrifying to switch into. Flying-types in general got much better this shift so a raise for both is warranted.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so played the meta, and now feel pretty confident to make these noms and comment on existing ones:

A+ to S: Agree. Sawk is an absolute monster in the current meta, thanks to the presence of the two new darks added to the tier. Pairing one of them with Sawk helps deal with all these CM Psychics, and threats such as Fletchinder and Uxie who threatened Sawk has left the tier. It may have not deserved it before the shifts, but now I think it is well deserving.

B+ to A-: Agree. With the darks now, and Fletch gone, Pinsir has an easier time in this new meta. Also has a niche in MB Stealth Rock to troll Xatu. I can agree with this nom, as it also helps with CM Psychics (there so annoying...)

A- to A/A+: Not sure, but incline to Agree. Combusken is pretty cool right now, that Fletch left and darks came. It does have versatility between it's sets, and is overall a great answer to the metas top threats in Klingklang, Liepard and Liligant. Can see it go to A, but maybe not A+.

A- to A+: Agree. Basically the same reasons as Sawk, but is used as a BU sweeper, and is pretty effective at doing it. Imo should deserve rise, maybe to at least A.

Now for some of my noms:

A to A+: Scyther just got better this shifts, as two new deffogers entered the tier, and Fletch just left, making it finallt take back it's spot as a bulky SD sweeper. It can also go Scarfed or Banded, and is again something to hit those CM Psychics.

A to B+/B: Simply is now outclassed by Shiftry in every way, poor Cacturne :(

A- to B+: Eggy ain't just that effective in this new meta. The new darks put a hamper to it, with new trends like Scyther and Pinsir also giving it a hard time. Lets not also forget how much Signal Beam is running around in the tier.

 

[Ares]

Can't wait for this new movie, been bumpin NWA all week.

Sawk A+ --> S
Klinklang S --> A+
Shiftry Unranked --> A+
Kabutops A+ --> A
Audino (Mega) A --> A+
Cacturne A --> A-
Skuntank Unranked --> A-
Magmortar A --> A+
Scyther A --> A+
Combusken A- --> A
Gurdurr A- --> A
Hariyama B+ --> A-
Haunter B+ --> A-
Exeggutor A --> B+
Vileplume B+ --> A-
Floatzel B --> B+
Hitmonchan Unranked --> B
Rotom-Fan B --> B+
Linoone C+ --> B-
Leavanny C- --> C
Kricketune C --> C-

 

[Kiyo]

'bout fucking time the best mon in the tier is S rank

 

[eren]

Discussing some more in Nu room, something that drop to either A or A- Is Mesprit. Simply put, Mesprit has acquired a counter and a soft check in the recent drops. And this isnt very helpful because both can knock out it cleanly with Sucker and Skunk can Pursuit trap it very easily. Furthermore, while Mesprit was considered slow in previous more fast paces meta, it still cant outpace Sawk, which is a huge downside.

 

[Aladyyn]

Mesprit commonly runs speed investment to outrun Adamant Sawk, which is still the most common variant. This means that it actually functions as a Sawk check and while Skuntank's presence hurts it for sure, it doesn't care nearly as much for Shiftry as it can just beat it with Colbur + SE coverage move like Ice Beam or Signal Beam. Coverage is basically Mesprit's main selling point because it means Mesprit can be tweaked to check an incredible number of pokemon in the metagame, a true swiss army knife and easily deserving of A+ imo.

 

[shiloh]

Discussing some more in Nu room, something that drop to either A or A- Is Mesprit. Simply put, Mesprit has acquired a counter and a soft check in the recent drops. And this isnt very helpful because both can knock out it cleanly with Sucker and Skunk can Pursuit trap it very easily. Furthermore, while Mesprit was considered slow in previous more fast paces meta, it still cant outpace Sawk, which is a huge downside.

Yeah I 100% disagree with dropping Mesprit. One reason for this is the fact that we just lost Uxie, and Mesprit is the best mon to "replace" it on teams. If you take a look at a bunch of teams either on ladder or even in the teambuilding lab, the amount of Mesprit taking Uxie's old roles has skyrocketed. One example being a recent team iplaytennislol posted with defensive pivot Mesprit with U-Turn / T-Wave / Psychic / Stealth Rock, a role that Mesprit now fills due to the rise of Uxie. Mesprit also isn't as "dark bait" as you make it out to be. The set I have been running recently is Calm Mind / Psyshock / Signal Beam / HP Ground with a Colbur Berry, so I can stay in against the dark types and either knock them out or deal enough damage to the point where I am 2HKOing them. It also can run a "slow" U-Turn in order to outslow Skuntank and pivot out of it so Pursuit only goes to 40BP instead of the usual 80BP, allowing Mesprit to handily take it. I also agree with everything Aladyyn said regarding coverage and Sawk. Overall Mesprit is still a great mon, even though the rise of Dark Types does hurt it a little.

 

[Mar1onette]

Ok so played the meta, and now feel pretty confident to make these noms and comment on existing ones:

A to B+/B: Simply is now outclassed by Shiftry in every way, poor Cacturne :(

Cacturn is actually not completely out-classed by shiftry, cacturn can still set up spikes and run can run D-Bond with having much stronger sucker punch's and stronger sheer power in both the physical and special side. but shiftry makes up for this for having a stronger special stab, knock off, speed, and move pool. yes i do think shiftry is "better" than cacturn in a lot of ways but, cacturn is not completely "out-classed" by shiftry, it still has its niche's and uses.

 

[Winter's Howl]

Articuno can carry support moves like defog

Yes, the game allows you to carry Defog. But like Scyther, another mon on which Defog is less than noteworthy, Articuno has to take 49% damage from switching into the most common hazard in the tier, Stealth Rock. Then if you choose to Defog straight away, your opponent has an easy time bringing in something to threaten Articuno out. Therein lies the problem. Articuno does not easily get a chance to Roost throughout the game, meaning every time your opponent gets up hazards without Articuno on the field, Articuno loses another 49% (assuming you EV'd it to not take half). So why use a hazard remover that literally requires you to play aggressively to maintain hazard control throughout a match? You are handicapping yourself, especially in higher level games. Not convinced Articuno deserves B/B+ with hazard removal being cited as a major point, when more consistent hazard removal lies in each other of those rankings.

 

[Choice Banned]

Yes, the game allows you to carry Defog. But like Scyther, another mon on which Defog is less than noteworthy, Articuno has to take 49% damage from switching into the most common hazard in the tier, Stealth Rock. Then if you choose to Defog straight away, your opponent has an easy time bringing in something to threaten Articuno out. Therein lies the problem. Articuno does not easily get a chance to Roost throughout the game, meaning every time your opponent gets up hazards without Articuno on the field, Articuno loses another 49% (assuming you EV'd it to not take half). So why use a hazard remover that literally requires you to play aggressively to maintain hazard control throughout a match? You are handicapping yourself, especially in higher level games. Not convinced Articuno deserves B/B+ with hazard removal being cited as a major point, when more consistent hazard removal lies in each other of those rankings.

To be fair, this isn't like BW where we had to resort to using things Wartortle as a hazard remover. We have viable ways of getting rid of it, such as Defog Shiftry, Prinplup, Claydol, and more.

 

[Winter's Howl]

To be fair, this isn't like BW where we had to resort to using things Wartortle as a hazard remover. We have viable ways of getting rid of it, such as Defog Shiftry, Prinplup, Claydol, and more.

He cited Defog in his post. As in Articuno being the one defogging. So your post compliments mine in saying that we have better things to use as hazard removal, and thus Defog on Articuno is not a point in justifying it moving up.

 

[Cheryl.]

I would like to see Skuntank rise to A/A+. Skuntank is the best counter to non HP Ground Psychic types, due to his Poison/Dark typing that makes him neutrally hit by Signal Beam. He is also a good check to some other things like Shiftry thanks to his good bulk and typing. He has a fair attack stat so he has an offensive presence, and he has okay speed and priority in Sucker Punch. He can also beat Ghost types and Fairy types like Mega Audino thanks to Poison Jab hitting MegaDino super effectively. He can even go mixed with Fire Blast to help him 2HKO things like Mawile and Ferroseed, who would otherwise wall him. He also has Defog, although I don't use it because Skuntank loses to most of the Rockers in the tier. Skuntank has some faults though. Ground weakness means things like Rhydon can switch in and force him out, and he isn't really too bulky or too speedy or too powerful either. But Skuntank is a really good pokemon in the metagame, due to being a good blanket check to a lot of things, and he syngerizes well with some of NU's biggest threats, like Sawk, that I think he should rise from A-

I would also like for Hitmonchan to drop to B-/C+. Hitmonchan is pretty meh imo, as he faces a lot of competition from other Fighting types, as he is mostly outclassed by all of them, but he has one saving grace in Rapid Spin, but still, he is walled by all of the Psychic and Ghost types due to lack of Knock Off, and is outclassed by a Bulk Up user by Gurdurr, or a Choice Band / Scarf user by Sawk, and he needs the Life Orb to do most of his 2HKOs and OHKOs, and Rapid Spin Life Orb recoil is never good. He can run Assault Vest, as he has decent special defense, but still, he needs the power boost. Overall, Hitmonchan is pretty mediocre and his only real niche is Iron Fist and Rapid Spin, so I think he should drop.

One last nomination for today:

Primeape for B/B+
Primeape got better with the tier shifts, as checks in Uxie and Fletchinder left, and two Defoggers joined the tier in Skuntank and Shiftry, so Primeape can use his Defiant ability much better now. While Primeape also receives comepitition from the other Fighting types, he still can differantiate himself from them with Defiant and some cool moves like U-Turn to gain momentum. While the lack of Knock Off and his frailty hurts him a lot, I think Primeape definetely deserves a rise to B/B+.

 

[Aladyyn]

I totally agree with dropping Hitmonchan, no way it's as good as all these mons in B (why hasn't pawn risen yet when it's been much better than B for like half a year now?). The fact that Primeape is below Chan is a damn travesty, since Ape is oh so good - it basically beats all the things other Fighting types struggle with such as Fairies and Psychic types (with U-Turn into Skunk or whatever).

Also I'd like to start a discussion about Rhydon. I feel like it could be in contention for S-rank, given how good flying types and Skuntank are in this meta. It's both a great blanket check to flying and fire types AND one of the most dangerous sweepers NU has to offer now. I think it's by far one the best pokemon in A+ rank and as such could be considered for a raise.

 

[Venoxio]

I agree with Rhydon getting a rise. As I have gotten back into NU with the tier shifts, I have seen how well it does. It checks many potent metagame threats, such as Archeops, Xatu lacking Giga Drain, Garbodor, and Magmortar. Rhydon also has access to Swords Dance and Rock Polish, a great combination which enhances sweeping potential. It is also, like Aladyyn pointed out, a check to most of the good types in the meta. Rhydon is a such a great Pokemon and should imo rise.

Also a nom of my own:

Pinsir for A-
Pinsir got better with the tier shifts, being a great check to Shiftry and having access to the amazing Mold Breaker and Stealth Rock combo, which lets it pass through Xatu's Magic Bounce. It also has some defensive bulk, letting it take a hit or two befor going down. Pinsir checks most fighting types too with it's decent physical bulk and resistance to them. It has great offensive power as well. Pinsir is a decent Pokemon in the NU metagame, and should be considered to rise.
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

 

[Deej Dy]

I don't get these recent noms for Pinsir, I've always felt it overrated and pretty bad in general besides Mold Breaker Stealth rocks (which isn't as important now that Xatu is less common with more defoggers/spinners present). I've always felt Pinsir was more of a B- mon as it can either be fast with Scarf or use SD and be slow, but unlike Gallade it has shit typing, less tricks (heh) up its sleeves and not as great a movepool.
Also SD quick attack is ass, don't try to convince me a non-STAB normal 40bp priority move is good.

 

[Machineae]

What are peoples thoughts on Muk rising from C- to possibly C or C+? I've been loving it lately, and I'm pretty surprised how well it deals with a lot of top mons including the recent drops. I've been using a 248hp/252Atk set w/ AV, Gunk, EQ, Shadow Sneak and shifting the last slot between Giga Drain, Ice Punch and Power Up Punch. With max attack you net a surprising amount oh OHKOs on top mons and even more 2hkos w/ rocks. Shadow Sneak makes late game cleaning/2hkoing things a breeze when they assume they can outspeed and kill you before you shoot off another Gunk Shot.

I'm not proposing Muk rise a ton, just a bit because I feel like its a bit better than its given credit for. You can't slap it on any team like Skunk and it doesnt have team utility like Defog/Taunt so I suppose its lesser in that regard but its still a decent offensive tank mon that can take a beating and return it.

 

[Hootie]

My main gripe with Muk and why I'm against it rising, is that it really doesn't do anything noteworthy over other Poison-types or provide any team support for that matter and this is especially apparent with Skuntank now existing, which brings way more utility for a team and also covers the mons that Muk checks (Lilligant, Audino, Mixed Cacturne, etc) in addition to Psychic-types due to its Dark-typing. The only noteworthy characteristic it has over Skuntank is the Fighting resistance, but with Muk's mediocre defense, Garbodor and Weezing are better options anyways. Shadow Sneak is also pretty weak without STAB when compared to Skuntank's much more powerful Sucker Punch. AV with okay coverage and a powerful STAB is the only real niche it has and this isn't exactly something that is valuable in this meta. There was less of a reason to run it before the shift happened and now this flaw is even more apparent. Heavy competition with other Poison-types is a reason to keep it where its at.

 

[marilli]

What are peoples thoughts on Muk rising from C- to possibly C or C+? I've been loving it lately, and I'm pretty surprised how well it deals with a lot of top mons including the recent drops. I've been using a 248hp/252Atk set w/ AV, Gunk, EQ, Shadow Sneak and shifting the last slot between Giga Drain, Ice Punch and Power Up Punch. With max attack you net a surprising amount oh OHKOs on top mons and even more 2hkos w/ rocks. Shadow Sneak makes late game cleaning/2hkoing things a breeze when they assume they can outspeed and kill you before you shoot off another Gunk Shot.

I'm not proposing Muk rise a ton, just a bit because I feel like its a bit better than its given credit for. You can't slap it on any team like Skunk and it doesnt have team utility like Defog/Taunt so I suppose its lesser in that regard but its still a decent offensive tank mon that can take a beating and return it.

I wish I could also use EQ muk..

 

[Machineae]

I wish I could also use EQ muk..

Whoops, I was thinking about a CB Dusk set I had on the same team when I mentioned Eq, my bad. Fire Punch was meant to go there not EQ.

I can see how it faces heavy competition from Skuntank and other poison types, my reasoning for the small rise isn't for it being better than them but Muk getting better in general with the dropping of Skunk&Shiftry as Muk can deal w/ them and other currently strong mons+it being better than a good chunk of mons in the surrounding ranks imo.

 

[Venoxio]

I would say Muk rise to C: it's niche is it's greater coverage over the other poison types, but otherwise it is completely outdone by Garbodor and Skuntank. That is the mark of a C Pokemon like Leavanny: it is mostly outclassed.

 

[Punchshroom]

Muk's coverage is "colorful" but isn't even that effective, as many bulky Poison resists are very capable of simply shrugging off Muk's attacks. Garbodor's coverage is actually considered superior for the most part as it has a physical Grass move which strikes many Ground-types in the tier far harder than Muk's Ice Punch ever would, and even nets additional coverage on Rock-types. Meanwhile, Garbodor is faster, physically bulkier, and has far better utility in Aftermath and hazards. Couple that with the arrival of Skuntank which stops much of the same notable attackers Muk can stop while also providing superior utility, and it's extremely hard to justify using Muk in this meta; Muk didn't get better, it got worse.

 

[ryan]

Non-STAB Quick Attack is a lot less weak when it gets a Moxie boost. Common scenario for SD Pinsir: you bring it on on something you can easily force out and/or set up on (mainly Psychic-types but slower Grass-types work pretty well) and then knock out whatever they bring in. Suddenly most of their potential revenge killers can no longer do so because an Adamant +3 Life Orb Quick Attack is a lot stronger than a "non-STAB Normal 40 BP priority move" sounds to be. Pinsir also has the unique ability to boost without spending a turn to set up and without being weak off the bat like Malamar is. It's definitely not a top-tier offensive Pokemon, but I think it's a very solid B rank Pokemon. I'm not sure where Pinsir is now, but I'd like to think it's around there.

 

[Punchshroom]

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 235-278 (90 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 229-270 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Deej Dy Yeah that non-STAB Normal 40 BP attack becomes a lot scarier after a SD + Moxie boost, right behind the second strongest priority attack in the whole tier. hollywood Pinsir is sitting in B+ right now, which happened to be the rank it was in Gen 5 NU. The influx of Fightings and Flyings in this meta is probably not to Pinsir's favor atm so maybe it's more suited in B, although Quick Attack is a useful tool to circumvent the increased amount of Sucker Punches in the tier.

Time for my own nom:

C to B Rank

Yes I know it's quite the jump, but hear me out. I've given a lot of praise to Pokemon who can break the commonplace Fighting + Dark + Psychic cores (Scyther in particular), and began looking for other candidates. Mr. Mime stands out as one of them as its main STAB, being Fairy, is unresisted among the trio, and it boasts the ability to outpace and threaten Sawk. Mr. Mime can also easily establish itself as an offensive threat due to its power, Speed, and solid neutral coverage between Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, and Focus Blast / Technician Hidden Power Ground (thanks Sir Kay!). Being the fastest Fairy-type attacker is already pretty nice in this current meta, but it is also one of the very few Psychic-types that aren't greatly hampered offensively. This is due to its access to a fast Baton Pass, which allows it to evade both Pursuit and Sucker Punch from Skuntank (Musharna risks being Taunted before it can Pass); it also allows Mr. Mime to pass things like Nasty Plot and Substitute (or heck, sweep with them). To add even more to its offensive utility, Mr. Mime has access to Healing Wish as well. Sadly Mr. Mime cannot switch in for shit, I can say with certainty that Mr. Mime performs better in this meta than the (large majority of) B- mons right now.

Minor nom: Primeape and Hitmonchan can probably see a switch in Rank: Primeape is still a fairly respectable Fighting-type attacker due to its superior Speed tier to Sawk's (plus Defiant I guess) and U-turn synergizes very nicely with Skuntank to make up for its lack of Knock Off. Hitmonchan meanwhile is not only easier to prepare for than every other Fighting-type in the tier, but is the kind of mon that requires perfect conditions for it to work well and yet lacks the means to effectively facilitate those scenarios for itself (aka honestly C~ish material).

 

[Incognitus]

B to A- Rank

I'm well aware that this was brought up before, but poliwrath honestly deserves A- rank. Being able to check a slew of prominent offensive mons such as SD samurott, rhydon, pawniard, carracosta, and kabutops with just one mon is superb, and fighting types only got better with the new drops. Nobody responded regarding Teddeh's poliwrath nom, so i'm unsure whether it was just unnoticed or if the general consensus was that it wasn't worthy of a raise. A bit of clarification would be appreciated.

 

[Deej Dy]

Why are y

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 235-278 (90 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 229-270 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Deej Dy Yeah that non-STAB Normal 40 BP attack becomes a lot scarier after a SD + Moxie boost, right behind the second strongest priority attack in the whole tier. hollywood Pinsir is sitting in B+ right now, which happened to be the rank it was in Gen 5 NU. The influx of Fightings and Flyings in this meta is probably not to Pinsir's favor atm so maybe it's more suited in B, although Quick Attack is a useful tool to circumvent the increased amount of Sucker Punches in the tier.

Time for my own nom:

C to B Rank

Yes I know it's quite the jump, but hear me out. I've given a lot of praise to Pokemon who can break the commonplace Fighting + Dark + Psychic cores (Scyther in particular), and began looking for other candidates. Mr. Mime stands out as one of them as its main STAB, being Fairy, is unresisted among the trio, and it boasts the ability to outpace and threaten Sawk. Mr. Mime can also easily establish itself as an offensive threat due to its power, Speed, and solid neutral coverage between Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, and Focus Blast / Technician Hidden Power Ground (thanks Sir Kay!). Being the fastest Fairy-type attacker is already pretty nice in this current meta, but it is also one of the very few Psychic-types that aren't greatly hampered offensively. This is due to its access to a fast Baton Pass, which allows it to evade both Pursuit and Sucker Punch from Skuntank (Musharna risks being Taunted before it can Pass); it also allows Mr. Mime to pass things like Nasty Plot and Substitute (or heck, sweep with them). To add even more to its offensive utility, Mr. Mime has access to Healing Wish as well. Sadly Mr. Mime cannot switch in for shit, I can say with certainty that Mr. Mime performs better in this meta than the (large majority of) B- mons right now.

Minor nom: Primeape and Hitmonchan can probably see a switch in Rank: Primeape is still a fairly respectable Fighting-type attacker due to its superior Speed tier to Sawk's (plus Defiant I guess) and U-turn synergizes very nicely with Skuntank to make up for its lack of Knock Off. Hitmonchan meanwhile is not only easier to prepare for than every other Fighting-type in the tier, but is the kind of mon that requires perfect conditions for it to work well and yet lacks the means to effectively facilitate those scenarios for itself (aka honestly C~ish material).

Why are you giving pinsir a moxie boost? So It kills something AND then Swords dances? Psh, way too circumstantial, Pinsir isn't that great in most circumstances.
May as well use belly drum Linoone and Substitute with those 2 turns.

Edit: Ok, that was a bit rash, but I still think Pinsir is not deserving of B+