Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

@Can Eh
I'm pretty sure Monty's skepticism of Munchlax comes from its offensive passivity. Sure it can take all these special hits, but what can it do back with 0 attack investment? What makes it any better than Sliggoo, which has superior typing and more speed? (only thing I can think of is the curse set, which is walled by any Ghost, Rock,and Steel in the tier)

Munchlax is actually pretty strong for a wall. Base 85 Atk is good by NU standards where offensive threats like Sneasel or Kangaskhan have base 95. You can actually afford to run some investment which is what I decided to do. It makes you slightly weaker against wallbreakers like Mega Camerupt but you dish out pretty solid damage. For example,

0 SpA Sliggoo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 71-84 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO
104+ Atk Munchlax Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 151-178 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 135-159 (30 - 35.4%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 102-120 (30 - 35.2%) -- 19.6% chance to 3HKO

Sliggoo is actually garbage offensively because you need Dragon Tail to be viable, and that means no Dragon Pulse because it's redundant. T-Bolt/Ice Beam are flatout weak and you need to run max SpDef unlike Munchlax, who has pretty much the same bulk with a lot less EV's. Sliggoo is also Sneasel bait, gets 3HKO'd by Samurott's Ice Beam and can't even hope to damage Mega Camerupt even slightly unless you run Muddy Water. Also Whirlwind > Dragon Tail when it comes to Substitute. Taunt is pretty rare in NU.

As for the Curse set yes it's walled by Ghosts, although it will beat stuff like Ferroseed or Regirock eventually and even defensive Rhydon if Munchlax is the last mon. Still loses against Klinklang and Mawile though unless they're weakened beforehand. CurseLax is a pretty scary late game sweeper as there aren't that many mons that can check it. Fighting-types are very popular but there's only a few good ones in the tier. Same with Ghost-types. And Steel-types. See where I'm going? If my opponent has 3 special attackers that means 3 mons that I can freely setup on, and that's how it goes a lot of the time. It's like mons like Scarf Mesprit or SD Scyther; when their counters are gone there's not much you can do to stop them from sweeping. CurseLax is kind of the same except it just tanks everything and sweeps that way.

 

[Punchshroom]

The Munchlax nom wasn't really done out of the blue (...ok it is, but that's beside the point). Its engorged special bulk combined with Eviolite lends itself nicely for blanket checking almost the entire special attacking spectrum in the tier (most notably Fire-types), while access to Curse means it not only isn't as susceptible to Psyshock at first glance, but it even beats Calm Minders 1v1, providing stall teams a solid way out as well as a decent wincon. It does want Fighting-types, Normal resists that can set up, and especially Ghost-types out of the way if it wants any work done, and hazards + passive damage can do a number on Munch as well due to its reliance on RestTalk. The closest mon I would compare Munchlax to is Miltank which currently resides in C. Miltank itself boasts several advantages over Munchlax (reliable recovery, better support movepool in addition to ~the same movepool Munch has, different abilities grant it variety), though its lack of sheer bulk on any side, especially the special side, means it doesn't blanket check as many mons, which is kind of important for a mon that doesn't carry any resists (bar abilities). That alone is enough to give Munchlax a possible ranking, though I wouldn't rank it above Miltank. C- Rank is the best Munch can hope for.

As for Servine, I can definitely see it get its own ranking. The snowballing potential is still there; you just need to work harder in order to make it happen. Scarf Servine can be something to look out for since it can steamroll offensive teams off the bat, though bulky Grass resists will make it super hard for it to do very much and competes with Lilligant for the most part. Eviolite sets can be more bothersome for slower bulkier teams, but having Magmortar-esque speed means that offensive switch-ins can force it out with impunity, though Glare can be bothersome. The most successful Servines I have seen are on Sticky Web teams, where they can both outspeed opponents and afford extra power (LO) or bulk (Evio), and they don't care whether the Web gets Magic Bounced or not due to Contrary; I might even go so far to say that Servine prefers getting itself Webbed so it can outspeed floating opponents. Servine (alongside Malamar) is a significant factor for Sticky Web's slow rise back to even the slightest relevance. Servine still has issues, namely its coverage, poor initial offenses, and only average speed tier, but it has what it needs to work well enough for C+ Rank imo.

I believe the biggest issue with Mr. Mime is that it doesn't offer quite enough over Mesprit to justify a rise to C+/B-. What Mr. Mime prominently has over Mesprit is STAB Dazzling Gleam (be aware Mesprit too has Gleam) and Fairy typing, much better coverage options, very slightly better speed, Nasty Plot, and Baton Pass. Meanwhile, Mr. Mime loses out on a substantial amount of bulk (and by extension defensive utility), versatility (Mime cannot threaten to go physical), and even a marginal loss in raw power (Mime's base 100 to Mesprit's base 105). The huge loss in bulk is easily the biggest drawback of Mr. Mime, as it heavily limits several advantages Mr. Mime would have otherwise had over Mesprit. For one, it becomes much more susceptible to priority moves and faster threats, the latter of which its bump in Speed over Mesprit doesn't even help much against. Despite its good Special Defense, Mr. Mime's HP is so bad it actually takes special moves about as well as Mesprit itself, and the gap in physical bulk is extremely apparent. To put it into perspective, Mr. Mime with its 4x Fighting resist takes (very slightly) more from Sawk's Close Combat than Mesprit does. This means that the Fairy-typing's defensive advantages are pretty much wasted on Mr. Mime; what does it matter that it resists Fighting better and isn't weak to Dark and Bug moves when it still takes just as much as Mesprit anyway? To rub salt into the wound, Mesprit offers a Ground-type immunity which is way more relevant than Mime's Dragon immunity.

As for sweeping potential, Mime has the coverage but when it comes to raw power it is slightly weaker than Mesprit, meaning Mime has to bridge the gap with its Fairy STAB (which is its secondary STAB as its Psychic STAB is stronger >.<), stronger boosting move in Nasty Plot, and support potential in Baton Pass. However, Mesprit takes care of a large majority of STAB Dazzling Gleam targets with Signal Beam as it is, Mime is faaar too frail to consistently set up with Nasty Plot, much less attempt to pass it away. Even raw Baton Pass is outdone by Mesprit's U-turn which deals chip damage and naturally keeps Dark-types at bay. It's not so much Mr. Mime being a bad mon, rather it doesn't manage to distinguish itself enough from Mesprit to warrant a rise. C Rank is fine for Mime.

 

[HJAD]

In reality, munchlax is shit. Its low base defense means its practically checked by every fighting type pokemon in the tier, like sawk, hariyama etc. Not only this, but it is complete settup fodder for ghost type pokemon, something that the OTHER relevant, normal, curse sweeper, miltank, doesnt need to worry about thanks to scrappy.
Not only is it checked by fighters and countered by ghosts which can use it as settup fodder, but every relevant steel type in the tier walls it as well. Sure, it can use some like probopass for fodder but what about mawile and klinklang. Certainly in mawiles case, you don't want it getting free sd's and even klinklang getting free shift gears is immensely frightening .
To add to these points on fighting types countering, ghost types getting free settup, steel types getting free settup, more pokemon can just use it for fodder. Like rock types, dd rhydon has great fun vs a munchlax or can roar it out, settup hazards, and just generally be a pain for any munchlax.

You have 4 types of pokemon, fighters, ghosts, steels and rock type pokemon that not only beat munchlax, but I'm the final 3's case, can use it for settup fodder, leading to immense pressure on your team, and generally, being a problem you can really do without.

Don t get me wrong, munchlax has a niche, munchlax is really really really really bulky and probably unkillable at a certain point, but there are so many common types that flat out wall it, in reality I can see it bring not quite as good as your quite making out

D- sounds about right to me.

 

[Deej Dy]

Munchlax is actually pretty strong for a wall. Base 85 Atk is good by NU standards where offensive threats like Sneasel or Kangaskhan have base 95. You can actually afford to run some investment which is what I decided to do. It makes you slightly weaker against wallbreakers like Mega Camerupt but you dish out pretty solid damage. For example,

0 SpA Sliggoo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 71-84 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO
104+ Atk Munchlax Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 151-178 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 152 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 135-159 (30 - 35.4%) -- 21% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 102-120 (30 - 35.2%) -- 19.6% chance to 3HKO

Sliggoo is actually garbage offensively because you need Dragon Tail to be viable, and that means no Dragon Pulse because it's redundant. T-Bolt/Ice Beam are flatout weak and you need to run max SpDef unlike Munchlax, who has pretty much the same bulk with a lot less EV's. Sliggoo is also Sneasel bait, gets 3HKO'd by Samurott's Ice Beam and can't even hope to damage Mega Camerupt even slightly unless you run Muddy Water. Also Whirlwind > Dragon Tail when it comes to Substitute. Taunt is pretty rare in NU.

As for the Curse set yes it's walled by Ghosts, although it will beat stuff like Ferroseed or Regirock eventually and even defensive Rhydon if Munchlax is the last mon. Still loses against Klinklang and Mawile though unless they're weakened beforehand. CurseLax is a pretty scary late game sweeper as there aren't that many mons that can check it. Fighting-types are very popular but there's only a few good ones in the tier. Same with Ghost-types. And Steel-types. See where I'm going? If my opponent has 3 special attackers that means 3 mons that I can freely setup on, and that's how it goes a lot of the time. It's like mons like Scarf Mesprit or SD Scyther; when their counters are gone there's not much you can do to stop them from sweeping. CurseLax is kind of the same except it just tanks everything and sweeps that way.

This post is so flawed. Seriously. You are comparing Ice Beam (STAB Dragon Pulse is forbidden!) and uninvested Sliggoo and comparing it to a sudden 104+ Atk Munchlax Return (Not even Body Slam or Max Spc Def like Can-eh previously hinted at) and comparing damage on a Sawk? Also, Dragon tail Sliggoo?

"As for the Curse set yes it's walled by Ghosts, although it will beat stuff like Ferroseed or Regirock"- Yes after they get max hazards and/or leech seed off and swap to an appropriate check (which isn't hard to find)

"Base 85 Atk is good by NU standards where offensive threats like Sneasel or Kangaskhan have base 95"

Yes, Sneasel has 95 base attack, but unlike defensive Munchlax, it is invested in and used in tandom with Life Orb, Band, or Swords Dance. Same with Kanga and Silk Scarf. This makes them much less passive than a 5 speed, normal type (bad defensive typing) with 85 uninvested attack. I didn't even bother mentioning that it has an atrocious 40 base defense, which gets bopped by fighting types even after a few curses.

I can maybe see it a D, but curselax reminds me of Oshony's Curse outrage, sliggoo set. Both have a small niche, and tbh I think sliggoo requires equal rank at the very least.

 

[Evan.]

on my phone so thisll be quick

Just saying in regards to munchlax, i emplore everyone to remember that munchlax's niche is on defensive teams. Curse is not meant to be a sweeper on balance teams that sets up on half the meta. It can provide a win con for defensive teams while still being able to stop pretty much every special attacker in the tier. When people say that it loses to fighting and ghost types, no shit it does its a mono attacking normal type. Thats like saying that camerupt isnt useful because it has a 4x water weakness and doesnt need to be brought up.

Oh and cute fact of the day, munchlax usually runs max def max spdef because its HP is already so large. So if you decide to run a +def nature , if munchlax and klinklang begin setting up at the same time munchlax ends up winning.

Edit: disregard this^ unless you are a god at resttalk roles lmao.

Also deej, base 5 speed really doesnt matter because you arent trying to outspeed anything, and its typing isnt bad at all defensively. Mono normal is actually pretty good typing for spdef mons because they arent hit super effectively by anything outside of focus blast on the special side. It also has 2 pseudo resists to fire and ice which are really nice. I dont think anyone in XY complained about audino's mono normal typing because it's actually a good defensive typing lol.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

This post is so flawed. Seriously. You are comparing Ice Beam (STAB Dragon Pulse is forbidden!) and uninvested Sliggoo and comparing it to a sudden 104+ Atk Munchlax Return (Not even Body Slam or Max Spc Def like Can-eh previously hinted at) and comparing damage on a Sawk? Also, Dragon tail Sliggoo?

"As for the Curse set yes it's walled by Ghosts, although it will beat stuff like Ferroseed or Regirock"- Yes after they get max hazards and/or leech seed off and swap to an appropriate check (which isn't hard to find)

"Base 85 Atk is good by NU standards where offensive threats like Sneasel or Kangaskhan have base 95"

Yes, Sneasel has 95 base attack, but unlike defensive Munchlax, it is invested in and used in tandom with Life Orb, Band, or Swords Dance. Same with Kanga and Silk Scarf. This makes them much less passive than a 5 speed, normal type (bad defensive typing) with 85 uninvested attack. I didn't even bother mentioning that it has an atrocious 40 base defense, which gets bopped by fighting types even after a few curses.

I can maybe see it a D, but curselax reminds me of Oshony's Curse outrage, sliggoo set. Both have a small niche, and tbh I think sliggoo requires equal rank at the very least.

First of all, calm down. No need to be rude. "This post is so flawed" is quite harsh. What I was getting at is that Munchlax is pretty strong for a wall, while you claimed the opposite. That's all. You don't need to tell me that Sneasel and Kangaskhan run offensive investment, thanks. Munchlax is a wall primarily, not a powerhouse. You can't expect it to 2HKO the whole metagame. It's a defensive mon as Can-Eh-Dian pointed out. But for a wall it's strong enough to do some solid damage.

As for Sliggoo, I was assuming the same SpDef Rest-Talk sets with a phazing move. Seems like the most fair way to compare them since they fulfill the same role. If you run RestTalk + Dragon Tail + Dragon Pulse everyone can see how that could be a problem. I could have calced Muddy Water or T-Bolt or whatever for the final slot, the point is just that Sliggoo has a tough time because using it's main STAB means it's walled by Fairies and Steels completely, and it's redundant coverage. If it uses anything else it lacks a good damaging move, and if it foregoes Dragon Tail you're setup fodder for every CM sweeper in the tier. Rain Dance + Rest is also problematic because you always need to use Rain Dance first before you can Rest, and you won't always have the time to do so. Sorry for my lack of elaboration but this is pretty basic stuff, I thought I didn't need to write it all out.

As for the Curse set, yes you can setup all the hazards you want, but if your way to beat Munchlax is to "wall" it with Steel or Rock types like you said, then it's not really fair that you conveniently have another check laying around that's "not hard to find". If you claim that you can beat CurseLax with any Rock or Steel type then you're simply mistaken. Besides, you tell me what can come in on a Munchlax with 3 or 4 Curses that's not a Fighting or a Ghost-type. Let me tell you, most of the tier can't beat such a thing. Basically you said that mons like Regirock and Ferroseed can beat CurseLax which they clearly can't, and then all you can say is "oh well, I'm conveniently going to give myself an actual check to Munchlax". Yeah we know that CurseLax isn't going to sweep while stuff like CB Sawk and Mismagius are still around, but when they're not your Ferroseed is not going to save you. That's my point.

And yes Munchlax has abysmall defense. So does Blissey. They're special walls, not physical walls. Also, as Can-Eh-Dian pointed out that's not impossible to fix with some investment thanks to that huge HP stat. After a few Curses you're completely fine against most physical attackers that are not Sawk or Mawile.

 

[Quite Quiet]

As for Sliggoo, I was assuming the same SpDef Rest-Talk sets with a phazing move. Seems like the most fair way to compare them since they fulfill the same role. If you run RestTalk + Dragon Tail + Dragon Pulse everyone can see how that could be a problem. I could have calced Muddy Water or T-Bolt or whatever for the final slot, the point is just that Sliggoo has a tough time because using it's main STAB means it's walled by Fairies and Steels completely, and it's redundant coverage. If it uses anything else it lacks a good damaging move, and if it foregoes Dragon Tail you're setup fodder for every CM sweeper in the tier. Rain Dance + Rest is also problematic because you always need to use Rain Dance first before you can Rest, and you won't always have the time to do so. Sorry for my lack of elaboration but this is pretty basic stuff, I thought I didn't need to write it all out.

I don't care much for this discussion, because I haven't used either enough to make an argument that isn't pure theory, but I felt like telling you Sliggoo doesn't actually learn Dragon Tail. So find something else to base your argument on, just not that. :l

 

[Punchshroom]

I've already pointed out Munch's susceptibility to Fighting-types, setup Normal resists, and Ghosts, but it's not like Munch needs to set up to function. Against more offensive teams that make it much harder for Munch to set up, Munch can just do what it does normally, aka wall most special threats and spread paralysis with Body Slams, and it does this to a much better degree than Miltank due to its immense natural special bulk. People who point out Munchlax's mediocre physical bulk are justified, but do note that it's actually half decent if invested into (in a similiar manner to OU Chansey), certainly enough to tank weaker Psyshocks with. Yes it still gets beaten by Fighting-types even after a few Curses, but what are you doing setting up in their presence instead of tossing out Body Slams which deter many offensive switch-ins as it is? Also, while I can attest that Normal isn't a great defensive typing, it isn't particularly bad either.

I can see why Munchlax's comparisons to Sliggoo are being brought up: both of their defining niches in the meta involve huge special bulk, important Fire resist, RestTalk, Curse, and mono STAB (Body Slam and Outrage respectively). However, Sliggoo does lack 3 advantages Munchlax has. First, Sliggoo's STAB is much less reliable; it can't paralyze foes early-game to cripple them or even be thrown out safely while awake. Sliggoo's weaknesses are also more commonly carried by special attackers (no. of Ice Beam users > no. of Focus Blast users) and thus make it harder for Sliggoo to capitalize on as many foes as it could; there aren't many physical attackers for Sliggoo to take advantage of as a compromise either. Finally, there's the fact that one of Sliggoo's biggest obstacles, Mega Audino, happen to be one of the most annoying / difficult Pokemon to remove from battle, while the Ghosts Munchlax can't touch are more easily dealt with in comparison. Sliggoo's most notable advantage over Munchlax is likely its Leech Seed immunity, or if you want to get cheeky against Rain teams Hydration can be used but eh :/

That said, recall that I said that C- is likely the best rank Munchlax can aim for; it's still rankworthy but won't be very high up at all. It's better than the likes of Avalugg and Dusclops which don't even blanket check as many mons as their stats would claim.

Meanwhile, I just wanna bring up:

Sawsbuck to C+

Sawsbuck has been nicely impressive as of late. The loss of Nature Power = Earthquake has always been considered be a big loss for it, but its newfound niche on Sun teams is still pretty strong. For one, it is one of essentially 3 Sun sweepers that check opposing Chlorophyll Lilligant (the other 2 being Jumpluff and to an extent X-Scissor Leafeon but no one runs that :P) due to its Speed, which in turn suggests that Sawsbuck is not fully reliant on Sun to outspeed foes, since it has enough speed for cleanup potential even after the Sun wears off. It is also not reliant on the Sun itself to dish out its damage unlike Victreebel, as its STABs in Return / Double-Edge and Horn Leech are perfectly fine on their own and have decent neutral coverage; Horn Leech in particular is excellent in conjuction with Swords Dance, making it one of the few Pokemon in the tier with a +2 boosting move and a draining attack (the other being Servine). Boosted Horn Leeches go a massive way in preserving Sawsbuck's health, either for it to dish out more LO attacks and/or survive priority moves. This sustainability actually makes me fear SD Sawsbuck more than Growth Victreebel, because Victreebel can at least fizzle out from LO recoil and Sun fading off, while Sawsbuck suffers no such drawbacks.

There are still a good number of mons in the current meta that can cause Sawsbuck issues. Gourgeist and Garbodor are two huge obstacles that happen to see decent to prolific use, while Steel-types can also pose problems should Sawsbuck forgo Jump Kick. Being below the 100 benchmark is also a bummer (though really this is more of Typh's impact on the tier in general rather than Sawsbuck having lackluster speed, like with Jynx). That said, Sawsbuck is, imo, the second best Chlorophyll sweeper in the tier right after Victreebel and packs a strong wallop in its own right.

 

[KnightK]

I think a lot of the debate regarding Munchlax honestly took the discussion in the wrong direction. Munchlax is being compared to things that it really shouldn't, lot of stating of the obvious, and generally flawed logic and reasoning behind some stuff being said here. There is definitely a reason to rank it, it is a bulky thick fat pokemon that is able to tank special hits almost to the point of absurdity in a tier full of threatening special fire types.

Seriously 2HKO'ing this thing from the special spectrum is near impossible.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 186-220 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 121-144 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 195-231 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 105-124 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 8.4% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 172-203 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

One of the largest reasons behind Typlosions and Mega Rupts suspect was the fact that due to their sheer power they could single handedly 2hko-3hko even extremely bulky would-be checks and those that can tank their hits really well lack recovery so they are worn down easily (AV hariyama, Mantine, Prinplup) or they can get past them through completely viable coverage options. Munchlax has none of these issues. It is absurdly specially bulky with Typlosion's specs Max HP eruption the strongest fire type attack in the tier (to my knowledge) being a freakin' 5hko, has recovery in rest, and specs focus blast isn't even a 2hko. It is a straight up counter to 95% of the fire types in the tier including the aforementioned suspects that also isn't trash and also has other utility besides just being a sponge all of that alone should be enough for D.

And Honestly if we are looking at moving up Munchlax from unranked we should not be looking at much at the aspects of what it does but what does it do that is different from the other countless specially bulky normals that are already ranked. If there are comparisons to be made to Munchlax it is Miltank and Lickilicky. Miltank for a specially bulky normal with thick fat and access to curse and Lickilicky for a specially bulky normal with phazing capabilities in dragon tail. Munchlax while having to dedicate two move slots for recovery is immensely way bulkier as both Miltank and Lickilicky are both threatened to be 2hko'd by coverage options by many fire types including the two suspects which in itself is a pretty big niche Munchlax has. People need to remember Munchlax, alongside Miltank and Lickilicky, are largely passive pokemon and Munchlax's niche is with defensively oriented teams. So yea you are being forced out by a physical fighting type like literally every other special normal type wall but any competent defensively oriented team will have other checks to them.

If we are talking sets I haven't used curse lax but that sounds more like a D set to me. The argument that you are a free set up opportunity for a large portion of the tier is completely valid and it sounds like the amount of things that would have to be eliminated before that set could actually work is too much. What set I think actually deserves C- is RestTalk w/ Whirlwind and Body Slam. Which not only is a phenomenal para shuffler but also works great on spike stacking teams (synergizes extremely well with Garbodor) for spreading hazard damage but for the most part removes the issue of being set up fodder. Munchlax does a good job of weakening the opponents hand for another set up sweeper or strong pokemon to sweep.

I was honestly one of the people that dismissed the Munchlax nom when it was first brought up months and months ago but after actually using it and seeing it action is deserves to be ranked although definitely not above C-. On the physical side it can't handle much at all and knock off is detrimental which is why Munchlax is a one trick pony for handling special attacking threats without knock off. But it does that job so well in deserves to be ranked.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Changes:
Lots of proposed changes, but we didn't push through many. There's some inflation in A+ and A- in comparison to A, so I'd like to focus discussion a bit on fine-tuning the As.

This was Monday. The discussion since has been the placement of munchlax lol. I know this debate is heated and vital for the viability rankings but I mean discussing the mons that are actual good is kinda important too.

Audino (Mega) ---> A I find this poke just to be general underwhelming relative to its rank, its rest talk calm mind set is very difficult to set up with the more offensive paced meta, and the calm mind attacking set is generally done better by uxie, mesprit and xatu.

Malamar ---> A Malamar has finally been noted as a threat lol and now people are running bug coverage to prevent malamar from doing much, as most signal beams will 2hko, while knock generally does not kill. It's also an easy switch for pokes like scyther, garb, rhydon, gourgeist, quag etc

Mismagius --> A Its speed and resistance to spikes makes it a very reliable pokemon. I've seen the stallbreaker set, will-o, nasty plot, 3 attack life orb + d-bond all work very well, while being a good enough spin blocker to the most reliable spinner, claydol (though this is only a small benefit)

Swellow --> A I really do not see teams preparing for this, as alot of people are going away from using rock setting stealth rock users thanks to mega camerupt
being around. The steel types that are present get 2hko by specs heat wave. For the most part, based on team build, you can predict which swellow it is, but, just like samurott, you really cannot be certain as both its physical and special sets work really well. And hazard control is good enough that swellow can come in relatively unscathed.

To make A+, A and A- "equal" I would also support vivillon and/or ferroseed to move up but am still not 100% convinced on either of them.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Yo I never used munchlax but really, 135 hp and 85 sp.d with an eviolite... you can afford going 252+ in attack and still be bulkier than AV Hariyama on boths sides (as long as evio stands). If I were to use lax, I'd probably go with something like 252+ attack b slam, eq, whirlwind, filler (sleep talk/curse/self-destruct). He then becomes more of a pain to switch-in with a pretty powerful stab, a good coverage for rocks and steel and whirlwind to rack-up SR damage on predicted ghost switch-ins and phaze off calm mind users. He also has a certan value in trick room I guess. I'd give munchlax a C- too, I mean the shit is better than delibird

252+ Atk Munchlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 206-244 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 152 HP / 100 SpD Thick Fat Munchlax: 166-196 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I'd also like to talk about mr.mime. This dude is far from being inferior to mesprit in every way. First off, he's faster and his speed tier becomes very important when facing stuff like vivillion and sturdy sawk (which I've used to great success lately). Some people will then say all he's got left over mesprit is a secondary stab and nasty plot, but mime also has a really cool ability in technician. This let's him have 90 bp attack of the type of his choice, something mesprit really lacks to kill it's counters. In fact, with psychock, dazzling gleam, a 90 bp hp fighting and a life orb this guy hits very hard on both defences with two great complementary stabs and hits hard any viable steel type that resists both, making him quite a challenge to switch-in to. It's last move can indeed be nasty plot, but it's not because mesprit can do it too that mime shouldn't use healing wish (or trick if he's choiced). I'd promote mime to B- at least as I've used him with good success.

 

[Punchshroom]

Yo I never used munchlax but really, 135 hp and 85 sp.d with an eviolite... you can afford going 252+ in attack and still be bulkier than AV Hariyama on boths sides (as long as evio stands). If I were to use lax, I'd probably go with something like 252+ attack b slam, eq, whirlwind, filler (sleep talk/curse/self-destruct). He then becomes more of a pain to switch-in with a pretty powerful stab, a good coverage for rocks and steel and whirlwind to rack-up SR damage on predicted ghost switch-ins and phaze off calm mind users. He also has a certan value in trick room I guess. I'd give munchlax a C- too, I mean the shit is better than delibird

252+ Atk Munchlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 206-244 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 152 HP / 100 SpD Thick Fat Munchlax: 166-196 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Woah there, the reason AV Yama can go offensive is because 120 Atk and STAB dishes out a lot of damage on neutral foes, meaning Yama often deals out more damage than it takes. 85 Atk and STAB is nowhere near that caliber, and from what you said you'd use Munchlax for (tanking, Trick Room sweeping) you might as well just use Yama itself. You also kind of fuked up the Typhlosion calc: where's the Eviolite, and how does getting 3HKOed by Specs Eruption make it even a half decent Typh check?

KnightK I'll be straight here: I can't think of any reason why Munchlax would need / make use of Whirlwind at all. It's used to stop setup sweepers, but Munchlax has no business to risk staying in against pretty much any physical setup sweeper for even a moment. As for special setup sweepers, the Calm Minders are actually stopped better by Curse than Whirlwind (even if they run Psychic > Psyshock, Munchlax can still outdamage them) especially in a last mon situation, the Quiver Dancers cannot even stop Munch with Sleep Powder unless Sleep Talk chooses badly while Body Slam threatens to cripple them the longer they stay in, and Mismagius either stops the Whirlwind with Taunt or be unable to 2HKO Munchlax with +6 Dazzling Gleam (unless Life Orb). Curse > Whirlwind for the most part, the only notable exception I can think of would probably be to deny SmashPass, but that can be dealt with something equally situational, like Haze Mantine or something.

I'd also like to talk about mr.mime. This dude is far from being inferior to mesprit in every way. First off, he's faster and his speed tier becomes very important when facing stuff like vivillion and sturdy sawk (which I've used to great success lately). Some people will then say all he's got left over mesprit is a secondary stab and nasty plot, but mime also has a really cool ability in technician. This let's him have 90 bp attack of the type of his choice, something mesprit really lacks to kill it's counters. In fact, with psychock, dazzling gleam, a 90 bp hp fighting and a life orb this guy hits very hard on both defences with two great complementary stabs and hits hard any viable steel type that resists both, making him quite a challenge to switch-in to. It's last move can indeed be nasty plot, but it's not because mesprit can do it too that mime shouldn't use healing wish (or trick if he's choiced). I'd promote mime to B- at least as I've used him with good success.

Yeah it's not inferior to Mesprit in every way; it just still doesn't offer as much as it could over Mesprit. Actually, I forgot another Psychic-type Mr. Mime would have to compete with: Uxie. Mr. Mime offers a small increase in speed over Mesprit but comes with a drastic decrease in bulk; Uxie offers an even better speed increase and a significant boost in bulk. If you want a speedier alternative to Mesprit, Uxie's speed tier is much more appealing since it doesn't speed tie with base 90s and outspeeds Rotom, all while not being very susceptible to priority or faster threats in general. Uxie trades initial power and coverage for these advantages, but that is a price easily paid for when you consider its ease at setting up Calm Minds, as opposed to Mr. Mime's difficulty in setting up Nasty Plot (or anything, really). The ease in boosting in turn increases the effectiveness of Uxie's available coverage moves as well.

While Mr. Mime has the widest coverage available amongst the Psychic-types in NU, a closer look reveals that the coverage kind of isn't anything unique or special. I mean there is no denying that Mr. Mime has colorful and strong coverage options, but for the most part all the coverage an offensive Psychic-type really needs to get by in the current NU is Psychic + Fire (for Steels) + Bug (for Darks and Psychics), then it's pretty well set for itself. Since there aren't much opponents Mr. Mime can hit that the existing Psychics can't already cover; Mime just hits these threats 'harder', but ends up as a middle ground between Mesprit and offensive Uxie with drastically reduced bulk and defensive utility. But let's say you stop looking at Mr. Mime as another Psychic-types; it's one of the only Fairy-type attackers in the tier! That would be swell if it weren't for the fact that its horrid bulk means it cannot even make use of Fairy-typing's defensive benefits, while from an offensive standpoint most Fairy-type targets (Fightings and Darks) are already covered for by the Psychic-types with Signal Beam. Basically, even as a unique offensive Fairy-type, Mime fails to provide strong niches in both the defensive and offensive department. Mr. Mime holds up simply because it's still pretty competent offensively, but the fierce competition and the fact that u can't use Mime defensively in any sort of manner unlike the other Psychics place it in its current ranking.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I did mess up the calc for Typh, thanks, this being said, it just makes him better to tank it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 152 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 111-132 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I know yama is a lot better and a lot more offensive than munchlax, that's why he's 7 ranks higher than C-. What I'm saying is that for those defences he's got a reasonable offensive presence, sure far from yama's but he can defend himself and actually use non-attacking moves (like whirlwind which isn't bad at all if some rocks are up). For what it is of typhlosion, I feel tanking eruption and blaze fire blast is the main concern. Yeah he won't take focus blast too well, but really, if I was using specs typh and predicting a munchlax switch-in, I'd rather double switch than try a 2hko focus blast (which I probably wouldn't be carrying anyway). If you wish to counter these arguments, please tell me about how utterly bad munchlax is, not about how he shouldn't be B, I'm not trying to get him there and I wouldn't agree with him being any higher than C-.

For what it is of mime, I talked about a max offensive life orb set (where I prefer healing wish to nasty plot but I wasn't too clear about that). Still, uxie can not at all use such a set to similar success and imo shouldn't be used as comparison. Sure it won't take much hits, but mr.mime is a great revenge killer and is very different than mesprit when it comes to tanking it's attacks. The fact is, if it wasn't for trick, mesprit would be pretty easy to switch-in. Something with the right defence (according to it's set: physical/special) doesn't need to resist psychic, just not be weak to it. Mr.mime however can deal big damage on both sides with both of his stabs meaning he 2hko's stuff with a lot of ease. Hp fighting coverage doesn't just hit steels that resist both stabs for large damage but also regirock and piloswine. In fact, if I look quickly through the top 7 viability rankings, only mega dino, uxie, defensively invested mesprit, mushy and claydol stand out as avoiding the 2hko and they all have pretty bad immediate offensive presence (except mesprit who's usualy not doing much against mime itself) (everything outspeeding takes huge damage if it's not OHKO'd). What's even better though is that for the vast majority of all those 2hko's, you don't even need to predict your first shot correctly because your 2 main stabs deal significant damage to pretty much everything.

 

[Kingler]

hi i don't play NU much but I've played around ~90ish matches for suspect so i guess that counts

I feel that Vileplume should be moved up to A-

The metagame atm is wayyy overprepared for Fire-types which give it trouble and although it has poor matchup against the S-ranks, it's a great check/counter to offensive Seismitoad, yama, lilligant, mega audino to an extent (sleep powder??), samurott, sawk, cacturne, rotom, and rhydon (shakier vs. a few of these), also beating kangaskhan 1v1. It's also quite bulky (as an example only, it survives CB sneasel's icicle crash). Non-RestTalk Megarupt is worn down by Giga Drain and/or Sludge Bomb poisons, Typh hates switching in on Sludge Bomb, archeops takes a huge amount from giga after rocks, and is actually beat if it switches in on that, and Xatu, a solid check, also takes a lot from Sludge Bomb. I feel like although A- is filled with a few generally more splashable threats, Vileplume fits well among these mons.

hope i did this right lol, first time posting here

fwiw I agree with the mr. mime and munchlax noms

 

[Punchshroom]

I know yama is a lot better and a lot more offensive than munchlax, that's why he's 7 ranks higher than C-. What I'm saying is that for those defences he's got a reasonable offensive presence, sure far from yama's but he can defend himself and actually use non-attacking moves (like whirlwind which isn't bad at all if some rocks are up)

What I'm trying to get at is that regardless of any offensive investment, the threat of paralysis from Body Slam provides Munchlax with all the 'offensive presence' it needs. CurseLax can just throw out Body Slams early game if setting up with Curse is too risky and it won't function any worse off. Aside from that, I'm pretty much just nitpicking your posts; I've already expressed my agreement that the highest rank Munchlax can aim for is C-.

For what it is of mime, I talked about a max offensive life orb set (where I prefer healing wish to nasty plot but I wasn't too clear about that). Still, uxie can not at all use such a set to similar success and imo shouldn't be used as comparison. Sure it won't take much hits, but mr.mime is a great revenge killer and is very different than mesprit when it comes to tanking it's attacks. The fact is, if it wasn't for trick, mesprit would be pretty easy to switch-in. Something with the right defence (according to it's set: physical/special) doesn't need to resist psychic, just not be weak to it. Mr.mime however can deal big damage on both sides with both of his stabs meaning he 2hko's stuff with a lot of ease. Hp fighting coverage doesn't just hit steels that resist both stabs for large damage but also regirock and piloswine. In fact, if I look quickly through the top 7 viability rankings, only mega dino, uxie, defensively invested mesprit, mushy and claydol stand out as avoiding the 2hko and they all have pretty bad immediate offensive presence (except mesprit who's usually not doing much against mime itself) (everything outspeeding takes huge damage if it's not OHKO'd). What's even better though is that for the vast majority of all those 2hko's, you don't even need to predict your first shot correctly because your 2 main stabs deal significant damage to pretty much everything.

I do indeed know you are talking about a LO offensive variant, because really what else does Mr. Mime have that is even worth running (*hint hint*)? The reason I brought up offensive Uxie is because it has a much more noticeable speed bump from Mesprit than Mr. Mime; all Mime offers with its increased speed is outspeeding positive Sawk and Magmortar, and merely speedtying positive base 90s. Most of them don't even run a positive nature meaning positive Mesprit can still get the drop on them, which can weaken the basis of using Mr. Mime as a faster alternative to Mesprit. Mime's (frankly situational) speed boost compared to its substantial loss in bulk already seems , the latter of which is usually far more likely to matter. The most notable perk is the faster Healing Wish, but again Mime isn't outspeeding very much that Mesprit couldn't already, and Mesprit has the bulk to launch a few attacks before busting out the Healing Wish.

Now I won't argue that Mime can be pretty tricky to switch into, but saying Mesprit is easy to switch into (as opposed to 'easier') isn't quite true, especially when considering Mesprit has more raw power than unboosted Mr. Mime. Mime's advantageous matchups over Mesprit boil down to its stronger coverage moves, but Mesprit still has the coverage necessary to capably fend for itself with. In fact, with a moveset of Psychic, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power Fire, Mesprit attains a large majority of KOes Mr. Mime would also get, so it doesn't really lose out on very much.

That said, a closer look at the viability rankings now has me uncertain on Mime's possible placement. While the argument that Mime is on par / better than most of the C+ Ranks can be made to move it up, there is also the 'outclassed' factor to consider. Take Audino who is currently in C+ compared to its solid A- ranking prior to ORAS. It's not that Audino itself has really gotten any worse, but the existence of Mega Audino managed to largely (but not completely) overshadow it; unevolved WishTect Audino can perform Leftovers Audino's job to a slightly lesser degree but offers up so much versatility and various advantages in exchange, all with little opportunity cost (in this scenario, unevolved Audino can go Mega and ditch the Regen business to access its Fairy-tying and engorged bulk in a pinch, which Lefties Audino cannot do at all). This scenario is very applicable to Mr. Mime and Mesprit, with Mime also not being 'bad' in its own right but has little versatility and a significant drawback which is its utterly shit bulk. So yeah, my thoughts and reasoning about Mime's placing in C Rank, but if it rises anyway so be it.

hi i don't play NU much but I've played around ~90ish matches for suspect so i guess that counts

I feel that Vileplume should be moved up to A-

The metagame atm is wayyy overprepared for Fire-types which give it trouble and although it has poor matchup against the S-ranks, it's a great check/counter to offensive Seismitoad, yama, lilligant, mega audino to an extent (sleep powder??), samurott, sawk, cacturne, rotom, and rhydon (shakier vs. a few of these), also beating kangaskhan 1v1. It's also quite bulky (as an example only, it survives CB sneasel's icicle crash). Non-RestTalk Megarupt is worn down by Giga Drain and/or Sludge Bomb poisons, Typh hates switching in on Sludge Bomb, archeops takes a huge amount from giga after rocks, and is actually beat if it switches in on that, and Xatu, a solid check, also takes a lot from Sludge Bomb. I feel like although A- is filled with a few generally more splashable threats, Vileplume fits well among these mons.

I too like Vileplume a lot, but I still have to acknowledge its flaws. The meta hasn't gotten any friendlier to it, with Fires, Psychics, and Flyings still being the biggest and most common threats in the meta. It also faces very stiff competition with fellow B+ Rank mon Gourgeist-XL which shares Plume's niche as being one of the best physical sponges in the tier and each having their own advantages. Plume has better offensive presence, Effect Spore, and a Toxic immunity (including soaking up Toxic Spikes), while Geist has outright better physical bulk, additional disruptive tools (Wisp, Leech Seed, Foul Play), and spinblocking ability. As of right now it is really difficult to distinguish if one has a distinct advantage over the other, so keeping them in the same Rank is probably fine in the meantime, though I expect future meta developments to make a difference here.

 

[Kingler]

ehh I think the poison typing is really nice to have but I probably should've held this off based on future meta shifts; I still feel like plume is overall superior to gourg due to toxic immunity/aromatherapy+offensive presence and good special bulk as well.

 

[bird crew]

I do indeed know you are talking about a LO offensive variant, because really what else does Mr. Mime have that is even worth running (*hint hint*)? The reason I brought up offensive Uxie is because it has a much more noticeable speed bump from Mesprit than Mr. Mime; all Mime offers with its increased speed is outspeeding positive Sawk and Magmortar, and merely speedtying positive base 90s. Most of them don't even run a positive nature meaning positive Mesprit can still get the drop on them, which can weaken the basis of using Mr. Mime as a faster alternative to Mesprit. Mime's (frankly situational) speed boost compared to its substantial loss in bulk already seems , the latter of which is usually far more likely to matter. The most notable perk is the faster Healing Wish, but again Mime isn't outspeeding very much that Mesprit couldn't already, and Mesprit has the bulk to launch a few attacks before busting out the Healing Wish.

Now I won't argue that Mime can be pretty tricky to switch into, but saying Mesprit is easy to switch into (as opposed to 'easier') isn't quite true, especially when considering Mesprit has more raw power than unboosted Mr. Mime. Mime's advantageous matchups over Mesprit boil down to its stronger coverage moves, but Mesprit still has the coverage necessary to capably fend for itself with. In fact, with a moveset of Psychic, Signal Beam, and Hidden Power Fire, Mesprit attains a large majority of KOes Mr. Mime would also get, so it doesn't really lose out on very much.

Perhaps the only other viable set Mr. Mime offers outside out life orb is its choice specs wall breaker set. Unlike mesprit, its access to a high base power secondary STAB and 90 bp hp fighting, along with moves like healing wish/trick, means Mr. Mime plays a lot better when locked into a coverage move other than psychic (which is really all mesprit can do unless it wants to threaten something with a crippling weakness). Mime can safely lock itself into a move that will even hurt a switch in, and can also do the same trick/healing wish shenanigans that makes mesprit so popular.

 

[Raseri]

Removing Typhlosion and Camel

 

[kay]

so does this mean we can move Magmortar to A now? :]

 

[Teddeh]

It means Pyroar goes to A+/S, this lion is so underrated.

 

[Evan.]

so does this mean we can move Magmortar to A now? :]

It means Pyroar goes to A+/S, this lion is so underrated.

Does this mean regular Camerupt gets a rank?

B imo

idk what it means but it sure doesnt mean we can post 1 liners willy nilly

anyways with the bans all the munchlax conversation happening is kinda for naught. I think it still might deserve a place in D Rank because of the way it can manhandle CM psychics and can even take on sneasel fairly well and i do think it has a small niche on defensive teams. thoughts?

 

[Hootie]

I know this is early, but does this mean Mega Audino should go to S Rank at some point? It's the only mega in the tier so it has no opportunity cost now that Camel is gone and walls/sets up a lot of relevant threats. Also having two of the most relevant wallbreakers absent from the tier makes it have to worry about a lot less. It has surprisingly good coverage so it can run a decent offensive cm set and crodino can be incredibly hard to break for a lot of teams.

 

[Magis4Life]

I know this is early, but does this mean Mega Audino should go to S Rank at some point? It's the only mega in the tier so it has no opportunity cost now that Camel is gone and walls/sets up a lot of relevant threats. Also having two of the most relevant wallbreakers absent from the tier makes it have to worry about a lot less. It has surprisingly good coverage so it can run a decent offensive cm set and crodino can be incredibly hard to break for a lot of teams.

Ehh, I wouldn't necessarily say that. M-audino is certainly a good mon, and losing the only other mega and Typhlosion is certainly a boon, but there are still quite a few relevant wall breakers in the tier that can wreck it and it still suffers from the same problems as before in that it is still very susceptible and easily shut down by taunt/encore users, being pretty weak without a calm mind or two under its belt (the 3 attacks +healing wish set hits a bit harder and is still pretty fun in luring in stuff though), and is therefore rather easy to set up on by some threats like subcm uxie, klinklang, liligant, etc. Not to mention that there are still very powerful fire spam users like magmortar and pyroar that can now shine. I can see m-audino go up, but I'm skeptical as to whether all that much has changed for it to make it S rank worthy other than no competition for the mega slot (though again this is still quite a boon regardless). Well it's still too early to say anyway.

 

[Adaire]

So with the new moves, I'm going to suggest some changes.

D --> Unranked Lost it's main niche of checking camerupt, incredibly outclassed and overall useless

B --> B-/C+ Like vibrava, pretty much lost 50% of it's niche due to banning. Still a semi-decent defogger but with no roost, weakness to rocks, and bad physical defence, not worth B rank anymore

B+ --> A/A- Klinklang is becoming more and more of a threat, and the best counter to it is B+!!!??? It beats Rhydon, Scyther, Malamar, Carracosta, Klinklang, Gurdurr, Mawile with a curse se. Yes it defences is meh and speed is below average, but it has recover which is great for a set up mon and the ability to beat all of those mons I just mentioned all A rank which is amazing. Plz A rank

Magmorter and Pyroar are new fire spam craze. #NewFireSpam

I was going to say Hariyama should move down but it's still going to be pretty good stopping a lot of special attackers.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Going to comment on the above noms.

Vibrava to unranked - agree, its pretty simple that it was only ranked due to its ability to check Mega Camerupt. Its a cool mon and all, but useless now.

Mantine dropping - agree, but there were some major points that were missed. With Mega Camerupt and Typhlosion gone, Mantine severely struggles against the remaining Fire-types. First off, Magmortar has Thunderbolt which obviusly blows past Mantine. Next, Pyroar has a secondary STAB move that makes Mantine wary to switch in, especially if Stealth Rocks are up. Lastly, Ninetales has Psyshock which targets Mantine's lower defensive stat. To be honest, Mantine wasn't that great of a Typhlosion check since if they kept up Stealth Rock Mantine could only switch in once and it would be 2HKOed afterwards.

Quagsire should definitely move up, although we're most likely losing it in the tier shifts which sucks. However, for the time being, it certainly should move up to at least A- since it checks a plethora of threats like Scyther, Malamar, Klinklang, Musharna, and Mega Audino while simultaneously setting up on them with Curse.

Magmortar and Pyroar both should definitely move up, but I'm not sure how far apart they should be from each other. Magmortar has the upper hand versus slower teams with its outstanding coverage and power while also having a useful ability [seriously GF why didnt Pyroar get something useful smh], but Pyroar has a secondary STAB move in Hyper Voice to dent most Fire resists as well as being immune to Shadow Ball allowing it to check Mismagius and Rotom. Pyroar's higher Speed is also an important factor, putting it front of base 95 Pokemon [Evire, primeape, Leafeon, Uxie, Jynx] and other stuff like Mismagius, Cryogonal, and Frogadier [cool mon o-o]. They should both be A rank at the very least, but A+ is not unreasonable.