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Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Celticpride
- Start date
Does Tangrowth even get used in UU? I think Tangrowth is more of the situation Amoonguss was in. More viable than the tier it's in at the moment (idk how good Tangrowth is in RU being that I haven't played it in so long but I think the usage situations between the two are quite similar.
To the point, I think it's quite possible that Tangrowth could raise to OU. It's proven to be one of the most reliable defensive pivots in the tier and is probably one of the easiest Pokemon to splash onto teams.
To the point, I think it's quite possible that Tangrowth could raise to OU. It's proven to be one of the most reliable defensive pivots in the tier and is probably one of the easiest Pokemon to splash onto teams.
One thing that's definitely big right now is how shitty non Rock Slide Sand Rush Excadrill has become, to a point where I'd almost consider it a piece of shit. For quite a while Exca could get away with running just dual STABs with SD and Rapid Spin, but now it's pretty much mandatory to either run one or the other, or else Exca is just a completely free switch-in for Rotom-W. Rock Slide isn't doing a ton to Rotom-W, but if weakened it can still actually pose a legitimate threat to it other than a completely free switch-in, as a +2 Iron Head is doing nothing to Rotom-W. I've even seen Return pop up a few times on Excadrill, as it has the advantage of OHKOing Rotom-W with a lot less prior damage and it does a lot more than Rock Slide unboosted as well. Rock Slide is still really nice though for OHKOing Zard-Y, Talon, Thundurus, and Mega Pinsir. But yeah, SD 3 attacks is really scary to face, as is 3 attacks Spin, but Dual STAB is just complete ass right now with Washington being everywhere.
Zard-Y is rarely seen nowadays and you lose to it anyway because of Drought. You still outspeed stuff like Talonflame and Thundurus, which take a ton from Return and will likely KO with just a little prior damage so yeah, not really see the merit of running Rock Slide unless you really hate Zapdos or Gyarados for some reason.
The popularity of Tangrowth and Rotom-W is interesting because it can actually be an excuse to use the aforementioned Zard-Y. Takes advantage of the bulky Grass, bulky Mie and removes Sand from the field. The biggest drawback I can see is the way the build is pretty one-dimensional, which is a major issue.
The popularity of Tangrowth and Rotom-W is interesting because it can actually be an excuse to use the aforementioned Zard-Y. Takes advantage of the bulky Grass, bulky Mie and removes Sand from the field. The biggest drawback I can see is the way the build is pretty one-dimensional, which is a major issue.
I still don't see how Return is the better option, especially on non SD sets when it literally provides no additional coverage. The main purpose of 3 attacks Excadrill is to revenge kill or clean outside of spinning, because it lacks the wallbreaking power of SD. Return's main target is hitting Rotom-W harder, and without SD, it still fails to 2HKO after SR. Otherwise, you're just using a move that can hit Rotom-W a bit harder, while Rock Slide's merits of always OHKOing SpD Talonflame, Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, Tornadus-T, and Modest Zard-Y in an emergency (if Jolly Exca) are all good enough reasons to use it on sets that lack SD.
On SD sets, Return is actually useful because you need a lot less prior damage kill Rotom-W at +2 than with Rock Slide, but again, outside of Rotom-W there is seriously not that much of a reason to run Return. I'd only run it if I was trying to lure Rotom-W or I was extremely weak to it for what ever reason. Rock Slide still has more merits overall, because Exca isn't always going to have perfect scenarios where everything is in Return range.
I think this is how mega diancie should be ran. All this while people have been running max sp attack and speed, and kinda neglected its attack. Yet, diamond storm is really the preferred move as it can potentially 2HKO some mons that special mega diancie cannot accomplish no matter what.
I had my misgivings about this set at the start but after experimenting with it, it really matches up better against chansey, amoongus and rotom-w that are specially invested (or with minimal physical bulk). Further, the loss in sp. attack is hardly noticeable if you ask me:
- Hippowdon - cannot 2hko even with max sp attack investment;
- Bulky waters such as slowbro (physical wall) - 0 sp attack investment moonblast still more or less 2hko slowbro;
- Ferrothorn, Scizor - even without investment, HP fire still does a lot, usually 2hko-ing both. Max sp attack wouldn't ohko them most of the time anyway except if there's a crit or in the case of scizor with no sp def investment (fuck mega scizor which is unusually bulky);
- Heatran - 2hko special tanks with diamond storm! Pray that it doesn't retaliate with flash cannon or earth power (the latter may not always ohko anyway). Then again, max sp attack diancie's earth power may not ohko a special heatran if it's a low roll anyway, which is disappointing;
- Still cleanly ohko Keldeo despite 0 sp attack.
However, I did notice some letdowns in the lack of sp attack investment. For instance, the inability to ohko tank chomp. I just cannot believe how bulky this shit is, so much so that 160 base sp attack is still insufficient to ohko it. Granted there's 0 investment, but I really expected better from a 160 base sp attack.
Also, some bulkier latias will now live your moonblast AND hit back with psyshock or surf, and you will almost always lose against it in a speed tie because of HP fire. Take the pain with the gain I suppose.
In all, a max attack spread has way more benefits than the old standard, which couldn't kill what it needed to despite the max investment ANYWAY.
Yeah I personally almost always go max attack nowadays. Rock is just such a dangerous offensive typing atm, and when you have access to a spammable STAB 100 BP Rock-type move that has the potential to save you from an RK with it's nasty boost rate coming off of a base stat of 160 then it is just really useful in general. Things I like are how SpD Skarm can't switch in on it safely like it can on SpA (252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 144-169 (43.1 - 50.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery), and Heatran is no longer able to come in on its STABs with ease (252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 181-214 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)--meaning that you can run HP Fire with no drawbacks barring losing the tie with non-HP Fire Lati@s and concequentially you don't lose to things like Ferrothorn and PhysDef Skarm who try to come in on you.
Ive just read some posts and you inspired me to test some future metagame possibillities. So i picked two mentioned Pokemon and built a team around them. Then i fought the ladder for a few points. I find it interesting what the future may bring and if those pokemon may have a chance. For example one Pokemon which was long overdue to raise into OU was Quagsire and now it is. Please leave your opinions and other predictions what we could expect in the near future.
The first Pokemon i've choosen was Volcanion.
Scince a while ive rarely seen Volcanion in OU. It is a strong special attacker, especially with specs. But that seems to be everything. Due to its lack of support and boosting moves (willo, toxic, thats it) people prefer heatran or keldeo.
The second mentioned Pokemon was Tangrowth.
It has a great defense and a lot useful oves. But Tangrowths typing and its general necessity to be used in OU hold it back a few tiers lower.
To find a niche for Volcanion i reanayzed its movepool and tried not to use the Stab+ep+hp grass moveset. Volcanion has a great physical movepool an also good stats so i built a moveset around that. The final movepool was this:
Code:
Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Steam Eruption
- Flame Charge
- EarthquakeThis set makes it useful as a lategame sweeper and regular damage dealer. There is also the possibility to use Super Power to one hit tyranitar. Some times its also useful to use stone edge o get rid of Dnite and Charizard Y.
After testing i find this set very nichy. Because of its bulk Volcanion can almost everytime boost up. The problem is you cant boost its attack, which means you have to play naughty or adamant which makes Vol not fast enough against some other pokemon. There are some more viable physical sweepers in my opinion which deal more damage and can boost (i recognized Infernape is upcoming). The thing which makes this set worth to play are its ability, typing and the stab water move. I think if people recognize this set (or maybe a Band version) it will raise up in usage a little bit but at the end it will remain as a low used OU until some Poke to counter appears.
Tangrowth has a great movepool to build around. But a big problem was its SpD which makes it susceptible for surprise mixe sets. The first idea was Assault Vest but it prevents me to use support moves. I recognized it is kind of a physical Blissey so i came up with idea which poeple did to Blissey. Use its preevolution and hope it doesnt eat knock off. The final moveset was this:
Code:
Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 196 SpD
Relaxed Nature
Sassy Nature
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Knock OffI predict Volcanion to rise up a little bit in usage when they discover the physical set but then it falls down again.
I predict Tangela and Tangrowth to get a big rise in the next months. It walls common threads like Landorus, Keldeo, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Excadrill, Azumarill, Lopunny, Tyranitar ect.
In this chart you can already see the slighty rise of Tangrowth. With more usage im sure Tangela will follow. What do you think?
Last but not least some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-397736372 (sweep a noob)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-397550035 (super close)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-397565579 (volcanion shit)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-397569769 (tangela action)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-397571750 (everyone gives up)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-397578401 (funny plot twist in late game)
Pls dont wonder, i confused Power Swap with Power Split for a while.
Infernape an Hawlutcha rising up in usage atm btw.
p2
Banned deucer.
tangela is just a gimmick, can't pressure things like landos uturn or lops hjks with rocky helmet or lacks passive healing from lefties. it's also a lot more passive and it's movepool misses out on some important moves like eq and rock slide which make it even more bait for stuff like talon.
volcanions physical set also doesn't sound great, it's walled even harder by typical switchins to specs like latis or gastro and like you said, it's very slow which leads to issues with being outrun by scarf lando-t even at +1 from flame charge.
i don't really understand the logic of an infernape rise, it's not very good. all of its sets are pretty bad and is a niche check to stuff like weavile and bisharp when the time of stuff like proper dark spam is over with, i think it's kinda pointless using nape because it faces a lot of competition from other offensive fires and it's not great as a defensive fighting type because keldeo can usually fulfill that role with rest talk.
hawlucha is understandable, loves being in a lando-t meta and a load of teams are vulnerable to it late game when scizors / azus / etc are removed.
also those replays are very low on the ladder, they're not good examples to use to show meta development or the rise/decline of threats.
volcanions physical set also doesn't sound great, it's walled even harder by typical switchins to specs like latis or gastro and like you said, it's very slow which leads to issues with being outrun by scarf lando-t even at +1 from flame charge.
i don't really understand the logic of an infernape rise, it's not very good. all of its sets are pretty bad and is a niche check to stuff like weavile and bisharp when the time of stuff like proper dark spam is over with, i think it's kinda pointless using nape because it faces a lot of competition from other offensive fires and it's not great as a defensive fighting type because keldeo can usually fulfill that role with rest talk.
hawlucha is understandable, loves being in a lando-t meta and a load of teams are vulnerable to it late game when scizors / azus / etc are removed.
also those replays are very low on the ladder, they're not good examples to use to show meta development or the rise/decline of threats.
I am predicting that the Toxic and Flame Orbs will be used more with trick/switcheroo in the upcoming months. The toxic orb has always been good with poison heal gliscor. The Toxic/Flare orb + Trick/Switcheroo frees up the moveslot that toxic/will o wisp would have occupied.
...at the cost of not only a moveslot but also an itemslot as well. It's really just better to use Toxic or WoW over Trick + status orb in most situations.
Durant @ Eject Button
Ability: Truant
EVs: 128 HP / 64 Def / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Send out Durant and use Entrainment on your first turn (which changes the opponent's ability to match the user's, in this case Truant) and switch out to Dugtrio with the eject button after Durant gets hit. Durant has a pretty high base Speed, so it will usually move first.
Once Dugtrio is in, his ability Arena Trap will keep the opponent from switching out unless they are a Flying or Ghost type, or they are holding an Air Balloon. Pokemon with the ability Levitate will still be unable to switch out, because their ability was replaced with Truant. Obviously, this method is not foolproof, but if you build the rest of your team to take out Flying and Ghost types, you will be able to sweep the rest of your opponent's Pokemon with Dugtrio. Here's how:
Since the opponent's Pokemon is only able to move every other turn because of Truant, and they are unable to switch out because of Arena Trap, you can max out your Attack and Accuracy by alternating between Protect (when the opponent is able to attack you) and Hone Claws (when the opponent is loafing around). When you get Dugtrio's Attack to 4x and his Accuracy to 3x, you can easily sweep your opponents with Earthquake (or Stone Edge if your opponent sends in a Flying type).
The only Pokemon that you will probably not be able to knock out in one hit are: Torterra, Breloom, Virizion, Chesnaught, Hawlucha, Gligar, Gliscor, Landorus, Skarmory, or any Fighting, Ground, or Steel type Pokemon with the ability Levitate or that is holding an Air Balloon. However, if you can build your team around Durant and Dugtrio to take out common counter Pokemon like Torterra, Chesnaught, Gliscor, and Skarmory, you will be almost unstoppable.
The best part is that this set is compatible with Generation 6 OU, Generation 6 UU, and Generation 5 OU, so you have even more options for your other 4 Pokemon.
Here are some replays demonstrating this technique:
(Note: In these replays, Durant is holding a Focus Sash instead of an Eject Button. I started out using a Focus Sash in case a faster Pokemon knocked Durant out on the first turn. I later changed it to an Eject Button because a lot of my opponents were switching out after I used Entrainment, and instead I maximized Durant's Speed EVs.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-392594759
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-396661605 (He forfeited after he realized what I was doing.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-396727806
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-397170659
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-390971981 (This is pretty much the worst case scenario of what could happen. You are always guaranteed to knock out the first Pokemon, by alternating between Protect and Earthquake/Hone Claws, but I didn't want to knock out Gardevoir until Trick Room and Destiny Bond were both inactive.)
Ability: Truant
EVs: 128 HP / 64 Def / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Send out Durant and use Entrainment on your first turn (which changes the opponent's ability to match the user's, in this case Truant) and switch out to Dugtrio with the eject button after Durant gets hit. Durant has a pretty high base Speed, so it will usually move first.
Once Dugtrio is in, his ability Arena Trap will keep the opponent from switching out unless they are a Flying or Ghost type, or they are holding an Air Balloon. Pokemon with the ability Levitate will still be unable to switch out, because their ability was replaced with Truant. Obviously, this method is not foolproof, but if you build the rest of your team to take out Flying and Ghost types, you will be able to sweep the rest of your opponent's Pokemon with Dugtrio. Here's how:
Since the opponent's Pokemon is only able to move every other turn because of Truant, and they are unable to switch out because of Arena Trap, you can max out your Attack and Accuracy by alternating between Protect (when the opponent is able to attack you) and Hone Claws (when the opponent is loafing around). When you get Dugtrio's Attack to 4x and his Accuracy to 3x, you can easily sweep your opponents with Earthquake (or Stone Edge if your opponent sends in a Flying type).
The only Pokemon that you will probably not be able to knock out in one hit are: Torterra, Breloom, Virizion, Chesnaught, Hawlucha, Gligar, Gliscor, Landorus, Skarmory, or any Fighting, Ground, or Steel type Pokemon with the ability Levitate or that is holding an Air Balloon. However, if you can build your team around Durant and Dugtrio to take out common counter Pokemon like Torterra, Chesnaught, Gliscor, and Skarmory, you will be almost unstoppable.
The best part is that this set is compatible with Generation 6 OU, Generation 6 UU, and Generation 5 OU, so you have even more options for your other 4 Pokemon.
Here are some replays demonstrating this technique:
(Note: In these replays, Durant is holding a Focus Sash instead of an Eject Button. I started out using a Focus Sash in case a faster Pokemon knocked Durant out on the first turn. I later changed it to an Eject Button because a lot of my opponents were switching out after I used Entrainment, and instead I maximized Durant's Speed EVs.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-392594759
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-396661605 (He forfeited after he realized what I was doing.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-396727806
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-397170659
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-390971981 (This is pretty much the worst case scenario of what could happen. You are always guaranteed to knock out the first Pokemon, by alternating between Protect and Earthquake/Hone Claws, but I didn't want to knock out Gardevoir until Trick Room and Destiny Bond were both inactive.)
The problem with this gimmick is that not only do you have two Pokemon that don't have any defensive utility, but any decent player will see it at team preview since Durant is not viable in OU, and you give away it is truant when dugtrio is paired with it, so any player will easily play around it with their Pokemon who isn't trapable. Example being landorus-t. It cannot be trapped by dugtrio and can simply u-turn on on Durant. Not only that, but priority is super common in OU, and because dugtrio has the defenses of a tissue paper, it'll die to any priority that comes it's way. This strategy is nothing more than a gimmick and should not be taken for any team.
But better setup mons don't trap the opp u_u yeah people should use setup sweepers that are self sufficient but that's unrelated to this gimmick. It would've worked with goth but r.i.p
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
So heres a mon ive been having a some success with recently
Gastrodon is like really good lol. The curse set finds tons of setup opportunities on some notoriously dangerous mons like mega diancie, volcanion lacking/locked into something besides hp grass or toxic, gengar, life orb alakazam, thundurus, cb ttar locked into pursuit or stone edge, and kyube while also setting up on plenty of other common mons right now like jirachi, starmie, slowbro, pursuit mzor, and defensive lando-t. The amount of shit gastro takes down 1v1 is incredible. After boosting a bit it can easily take on some of the tiers most threatening physical or mixed attackers as well such as weavile, bisharp, keldeo, mega lopunny, and mega metagross lacking grass knot. Obviously gastro gets held back by some common stuff like amoonguss and rotom-w, but it wasnt nearly as bad as I initially thought it would be. Gastro really does benefit from the decline in popularity of shit like venu too as well as the growth of sand. Its bulk is really incredible. There are a couple classic cores with it in torn-t + gastro and tflame + gastro, both of which take a bird and let it handle the grasses gastro hates while appreciating gastro's ability to take on electrics, certain fat waters like cune, slowbro, and slowking, and also rock types. Unfortunately these cores have issues with rotom-w, toxic on things like starmie, and certain waters like azu and rotom-w for example. I actually tried pairing it with shaymin lol because it would fix most of those problems, providing a powerful grass type breaker that can eat toxics and wisps thanks to nat cure. I guess celebi could work too but shaymin is cuter o.o Imo the physically defensive set is kind of garb compared to the curse set and not nearly as threatening but thats just me. Physdef also cant take on tons of special attackers that gastrodon is supposed to beat either like mdiancie, kyube, and cm slowbro/king due to lack of spdef investment and curse. All im saying is that i just think that gastro is a really solid wincon atm and im pretty impressed with it so far.
Gastrodon is like really good lol. The curse set finds tons of setup opportunities on some notoriously dangerous mons like mega diancie, volcanion lacking/locked into something besides hp grass or toxic, gengar, life orb alakazam, thundurus, cb ttar locked into pursuit or stone edge, and kyube while also setting up on plenty of other common mons right now like jirachi, starmie, slowbro, pursuit mzor, and defensive lando-t. The amount of shit gastro takes down 1v1 is incredible. After boosting a bit it can easily take on some of the tiers most threatening physical or mixed attackers as well such as weavile, bisharp, keldeo, mega lopunny, and mega metagross lacking grass knot. Obviously gastro gets held back by some common stuff like amoonguss and rotom-w, but it wasnt nearly as bad as I initially thought it would be. Gastro really does benefit from the decline in popularity of shit like venu too as well as the growth of sand. Its bulk is really incredible. There are a couple classic cores with it in torn-t + gastro and tflame + gastro, both of which take a bird and let it handle the grasses gastro hates while appreciating gastro's ability to take on electrics, certain fat waters like cune, slowbro, and slowking, and also rock types. Unfortunately these cores have issues with rotom-w, toxic on things like starmie, and certain waters like azu and rotom-w for example. I actually tried pairing it with shaymin lol because it would fix most of those problems, providing a powerful grass type breaker that can eat toxics and wisps thanks to nat cure. I guess celebi could work too but shaymin is cuter o.o Imo the physically defensive set is kind of garb compared to the curse set and not nearly as threatening but thats just me. Physdef also cant take on tons of special attackers that gastrodon is supposed to beat either like mdiancie, kyube, and cm slowbro/king due to lack of spdef investment and curse. All im saying is that i just think that gastro is a really solid wincon atm and im pretty impressed with it so far.
Does Chansey or Blissey pressure anything? Tangela can put foes to sleep, paralyse, toxic, knock off items, annoy them with leech seeds and so on, so i thinks its mp fits its role as a wall still pretty well. Not to mention its 6 possible ways to heal.
The big conterpoint i see is that it has way more problems with knock off since its a physical wall. I think what you chose is a question of your playstyle. ( Personally i prefer full evolved pokemon except Porygon2 Wall.)
May i ask what is your problem with rotom? You could toxic (over scald or curse) it and do stuff since it cant harm you.So heres a mon ive been having a some success with recently
Gastrodon is like really good lol. The curse set finds tons of setup opportunities on some notoriously dangerous mons like mega diancie, volcanion lacking/locked into something besides hp grass or toxic, gengar, life orb alakazam, thundurus, cb ttar locked into pursuit or stone edge, and kyube while also setting up on plenty of other common mons right now like jirachi, starmie, slowbro, pursuit mzor, and defensive lando-t. The amount of shit gastro takes down 1v1 is incredible. After boosting a bit it can easily take on some of the tiers most threatening physical or mixed attackers as well such as weavile, bisharp, keldeo, mega lopunny, and mega metagross lacking grass knot. Obviously gastro gets held back by some common stuff like amoonguss and rotom-w, but it wasnt nearly as bad as I initially thought it would be. Gastro really does benefit from the decline in popularity of shit like venu too as well as the growth of sand. Its bulk is really incredible. There are a couple classic cores with it in torn-t + gastro and tflame + gastro, both of which take a bird and let it handle the grasses gastro hates while appreciating gastro's ability to take on electrics, certain fat waters like cune, slowbro, and slowking, and also rock types. Unfortunately these cores have issues with rotom-w, toxic on things like starmie, and certain waters like azu and rotom-w for example. I actually tried pairing it with shaymin lol because it would fix most of those problems, providing a powerful grass type breaker that can eat toxics and wisps thanks to nat cure. I guess celebi could work too but shaymin is cuter o.o Imo the physically defensive set is kind of garb compared to the curse set and not nearly as threatening but thats just me. Physdef also cant take on tons of special attackers that gastrodon is supposed to beat either like mdiancie, kyube, and cm slowbro/king due to lack of spdef investment and curse. All im saying is that i just think that gastro is a really solid wincon atm and im pretty impressed with it so far.
Btw dont underestimate Gengar, Alakazam and Thundurus. They all learn grass moves which can OHKO you.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
If rotom-w burns you gastro basically has zero chance of sweeping for the rest of the match. Gengar has no reason to run a grass move ever. Energy ball (mega) zam is incredibly situational and literally only useful against rain teams. Gk thundy is a thing but its very rare compared to hp ice. You would carry a backup check like latios or something along those lines regardless.
p2
Banned deucer.
duuuude please stop advocating tangela because it has too many issues to actually be viable in ou. if it was actually viable it would be used in ou, but this clearly isn't the case.
i've already said why it's a lackluster choice compared to tangrowth (can't use other items, complete knock off bait, worse movepool and attacking stats, much more passivity issues), please don't pull these asinine comparisons to chansey and blissey which don't even make sense.
i'm not gonna respond again tho this is just beyond nonsense lol
I feel like Charizard-X is having a better time in this meta where Rocky Helmet Lando-T is usually the only check a team yields to this thing (Sand, Slowbro, etc). Charizard is a mon where it really pressures you to go directly into your check. Landorus-T have been running a lot of speed and Rocky Helmet lately which doesn't allow it to check Charizard-X better. Spikes are so good in supporting a Charizard sweep to allow it to net KOs easier. When Landorus-T are forced to switch-in to this thing to prevent setup it also gets worn down and (non leftovers) don't get recovery which it would need to allow it to prevent Charizard from breaking. Just my thoughts since Zard-Y be getting all the love out here. c:
I dunno about that. With people spamming status moves like no tomorrow, it's very difficult for Zard to get a Dragon Dance up without getting Status-ed so I prefer the immediate power of Zard-Y. Plus, even if you run Roost, it's kinda difficult to find breathing room to click it as you are just forced out by many random switch-ins or is pressured to attack immediately or risk a status. Oh, if you don't run Roost, it's just worn down really fast by Flare Blitz, Rocky Helmet, Rocks, priority moves and other attacks it takes while setting up. If you do run Roost, you have issues with coverage. All this before stating how Zard-X is forced out by common mons in OU.
Charizard X also has the speed issue. If you run Adamant, you get outsped by Kyurem and Base 100s. If you run Jolly, you don't have enough power to take out Garchomp, even at +1. Charizard X can be a monster if it gets to set up, but there are so few things it can set up against.
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 408-480 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Unless you're really unlucky you should have no problem taking it out at +1, and you only need a very small amount of chip for the guaranteed. Adamant Zard-X is pretty trash considering that you get outsped by almost all relevant Scarfers whereas with Jolly you outspeed Lando-T and it can't even reliably revenge kill you unless it's healthy. I agree with Vertex's post in the VR about how a lot of people seem to focus on using Zard-X as more of this early game breaker than as a cleaner, when IMO that's what it's best used for in the current metagame. It can't reliably sweep when Lando-T is healthy or when there's still stuff like Sand Rush Exca, but lategame it's a complete monster. The best set right now is just DD 3 attacks, because with EQ most of its common checks no longer check it reliably and you just cleave through a lot of balance builds. You just have to know when to play smart with it and not use it as your primary Mega Scizor or Rotom-W switch-in, which is where I think a lot of people fuck up because then it's too worn down to set up or sweep properly.
(talking about pivots)
After reading the recent topics in this discussion, I wanted to express my opinion on the various trends of the metagame, til everything I wanted to talk a little with respect to this metagame that evolved during the release of volcanion and ban Hoopa-U, like all we are seeing (I guess), bulky pivot as rotom-W and spd jirachi coupled to a breaker as mega Medicham, Gardevoir mega, mega Pinsir, cb Terrakion and tyranitar, have become very popular, this "archetype" is to exploit much more the breaker power, offering defensive and offensive support to it, such as jirachi that controls decently mega Gardevoir and latios, and also creates momentum using healing or wish u-turn right to support the breaker, but we can also see that some pivot help offensively the breaker to weaken or eliminate his counters, a good example is Tornadus-Therian, which is probably the best pivot along with rotom-w in this moment the metagame, which thanks to its speed and coverage (talking about the life orb variant) fails to be dangerous for many defensive pokemon common as Ferrothorn, and also for some tanks as Clefable, using iron tail or taunt, He manages to weaken him to use various status; another example of a pivot is Landorus Therian, I think it is the best pokemon of the metagame, with his versatility can provide offensive and even defensive support, being also one of the best rock setter, helps breaker and the cleaner to close the game team but I think landorus well as providing a support with indirect damage, such as using the same hazards, oppre having rocky helmet or toxic, that serve to weaken other breaker or pivot as opposites Landorus on imminent u-turn, or to weaken some specifc pokemons, such as the fake out users, as mega cham and mega lopunny, and consequently for example bring them in range of keldeo's hydro pumps after this indirect damage, Landorus also, as I already said before manages to put that pressure that the right offensive that serves to eliminate some common switches present in balance teams as bulky mega Scizor, Clefable, Ferrothorn and hippo using swords dance, and manages to be a good wincon using DD version, it manages to beat bulky builds and builds fast very easily if used in the right way at the right time, even if the usage of specs Keldeo is high, this set of Landorus remains one of those sets feared by mega diancie + Magnezone builds , or stall teams that Skarmory is missing, such as builds as mega Sableye-Zapdos-Quagsire-Chansey-Amoonguss; after the release of Volcanion we all noticed how Tangrowth, Amoonguss have become much more common, are good pivot, and have the differents characteristics, we begin by Tangrowth: Tangrowth is an excellent defensive pivot, thanks to regenerator has the possibility to be a good switch for many offensive minecce as mega lopunny, Bisharp, life orb Excadrill, Landorus, tang is very versatile, and can have two very good sets that they have different roles, the first is the coune assalult vest variant, this version works well for bulky offensive teams, and manages to handle threats like mega diancie, Keldeo locked in a water move, w-rotom, slowbro (no CM), also provides utilities using earthquake for different Heatran, and knock off some items to remove or switch as latios Clefable, tang hates status as burn and toxic, in fact a partner common is Heatran, which controls various typings as ice, flying, poison and fire; the other set that is becoming more common particularly in the last month is RH tang, rh tang is a great set that allows Tangrowth better control physical threats as mega lopunny, Terrakion, tyranitar also also has a good utility on pivoting on mixed attacker as a superpower Tornadus-t, this set weakens many pivots as jirachi, Landorus, torn-t, also provides a good utility through sleep powder, or leech seed to have a passive recovery, despite the high bulk physical, its low special defense does not allow him to control manaphy, mega diancie or resist two Specs Keldeo hydro pump. About Amoong, became as short a ou pokemon in effect, is also an excellent defensive pivot grass types, he definitely different from utility than tang, such as get on some fairy types as Clefable and Azumarill, amoonguss as tang is very good in bulky offense and also very good at stall builds, now has become a regular place of the much known Weavile stall recently become common, amoonguss do have the ability to control special diancie based mega, mega lopunny with the right evs), and controls Keldeo and loom very easily, finally, I really like the use of stun spores, which can give you many advantages against Tornadus-Therian, which after absorbing spores with another teammate, believed to safely get on amoonguss, this move is very effective in this metagame.
(talking about breakers)
As I said before, the metagame has given space to many breakers as mega garde, lopunny mega, mega Medicham, choice band Terrakion and tyranitar, charizard Y, now we analyze these one by one, to give a also idea of their characteristics in this metagame.
mega gardevoir: mega Gardevoir is a great Wallbreaker, exploiting defensive pivoting of Landorus, jirachi and rotom-w manages to be pericolso fat for many pokemon as manaphy, slowbro, hippo, RH tang, suicune, Heatran, Clefable, this factor is very important since that the popularity of some of these pokemon has increased in recent months, many gardevoir forcing the opponent to go with his steel type, and these can be weakened with wow (in the case of Metagross and mega Metagross, jirachi, Ferrothorn, and mega Scizor), and can inflict considerable damage to skamory, ferrthrorn, Heatran, Ferrothorn fact, for this reason is racing Chople berry as a countermeasure to better manage this Wallbreaker, mega gardevpir is also a great stallbreaker, with a good pursuit trap support can deal much more easily chansey even taunt is a good option for men faced cm Clefable preventing twave or softboiled, all in all, mega Gardevoir is really good teams in bulky offense, aprezza be joined by tankchomp or rocky helmet Landorus, which weaken the steel types with passive damage, and put pressure with stealth rock.
mega lopunny: mega lopunny, was always a great pokemon in the oras metagame, having a frightening speed can threaten threats like Weavile, Tornadus-t very easily, also has a good offense, thanks to Rotom-W support is really difficle stop it, many builds as we have seen in many competitions, are based mega lopunny - rotom-w-jirachi, this core, indeed is very synergistic both offensively than defensively allowing lopunny threaten many pokemon in the metagame, lately I've seen some ice beam lopunny in wcop, probably to avoid taking indirect damage from the municipalities rocky helmet tang, tankchomp, lando-t, and have proven effective as it may seem strange as a move to give to lopunny also toxic is another good move to weaken hippo,, mega slowbro, defensive lando, tankchomp, mega also lopunny to weaken these threats appreciates spikes support, so as to be able to do a better clean the opposing team.
mega medicham: mega Medicham probably is in top 3 mega evolution strongest of the moment, much like mega lopunny except for speed and power, can hit hard many pokemon as hippo, rotom-w, slowbro (using thunderpunch) and tankchomp, Landorus using ice punch, the BoltBeam version now has become the most common, this is able to eliminate many pokemon and many types of common building now as Keldeo / latios / rotom-w / steel, also his exaggerated the power of doing 2HKO to Clefable using HJK with adamant nature makes mega cham very dangerous even for some Clefable balance, this Wallbreaker has a very good coverage combined with a high attack, and with the support of the slow pivot manages to get free on the battlefield, and then to do at least one kill in battle (if not more).
&
CB ttar and terrakion: at this time of the metagame the rock type is one of the best, in fact the popularity of Cb ttar and kion proves, these pokemon are similar, have in fact the counters very similar, their only difference lies in the role they can play to support the team and in the very high speed, which is an important factor that differentiates them, tyranitar is definitely a great stallbreaker, capable of pursuit chansey, latios, mega Latias doing enormous damage, and then support other breakers as Keldeo, Breloom, Terrakion instead can threaten many pokemon as offensive Landorus, Weavile, av tang, amoonguss, volcanion, Skarmory and Clefable, also his speed allows him to threaten charizard Y, rotom-w, mega Venusaur, and charizardx without boost. as we can see, these two Wallbreaker have similar roles as the tough wallbreak, but also even some defensive utility or countermeasure that differentiate them.
weavile: This pokemon is currently one of the strongest Pokemon in the metagame and difficult to manage, thanks to the popularity of the band's choice version, can strike hard Keldeo, making it an unsafe switch during the game because of the lack of a real recovery move, also his speed is the envy of everyone, and with a high attack can threaten Tornadus-t, Garchomp, Landorus, revealing a antimeta pokemon, also the possibility of running poison jab allows you to hit Azumarill and Clefable very hard, I think right now is Weavile having its best time.
mega charizard Y: as already mentioned by gary2346, since rotom-w, suicune, tang, Heatran, mew are more common in the metagame, charizard Y is able to very well integrated into the metagame using his raw power, combinations like charizard y / CB ttar / specs Keldeo, are in fact more common, also charizard Y has the ability to be very dangerous for many Wallbreaker + pivots cores as megacham / mega lop + rotom-W and jirachi, this is a very good advantage, since even the bulky grass like tang and amoonguss rose in usage.
That's all for today, probably tomorrow we will talk a bit of Gastrodon, and its role in the metagame, see ya guys
After reading the recent topics in this discussion, I wanted to express my opinion on the various trends of the metagame, til everything I wanted to talk a little with respect to this metagame that evolved during the release of volcanion and ban Hoopa-U, like all we are seeing (I guess), bulky pivot as rotom-W and spd jirachi coupled to a breaker as mega Medicham, Gardevoir mega, mega Pinsir, cb Terrakion and tyranitar, have become very popular, this "archetype" is to exploit much more the breaker power, offering defensive and offensive support to it, such as jirachi that controls decently mega Gardevoir and latios, and also creates momentum using healing or wish u-turn right to support the breaker, but we can also see that some pivot help offensively the breaker to weaken or eliminate his counters, a good example is Tornadus-Therian, which is probably the best pivot along with rotom-w in this moment the metagame, which thanks to its speed and coverage (talking about the life orb variant) fails to be dangerous for many defensive pokemon common as Ferrothorn, and also for some tanks as Clefable, using iron tail or taunt, He manages to weaken him to use various status; another example of a pivot is Landorus Therian, I think it is the best pokemon of the metagame, with his versatility can provide offensive and even defensive support, being also one of the best rock setter, helps breaker and the cleaner to close the game team but I think landorus well as providing a support with indirect damage, such as using the same hazards, oppre having rocky helmet or toxic, that serve to weaken other breaker or pivot as opposites Landorus on imminent u-turn, or to weaken some specifc pokemons, such as the fake out users, as mega cham and mega lopunny, and consequently for example bring them in range of keldeo's hydro pumps after this indirect damage, Landorus also, as I already said before manages to put that pressure that the right offensive that serves to eliminate some common switches present in balance teams as bulky mega Scizor, Clefable, Ferrothorn and hippo using swords dance, and manages to be a good wincon using DD version, it manages to beat bulky builds and builds fast very easily if used in the right way at the right time, even if the usage of specs Keldeo is high, this set of Landorus remains one of those sets feared by mega diancie + Magnezone builds , or stall teams that Skarmory is missing, such as builds as mega Sableye-Zapdos-Quagsire-Chansey-Amoonguss; after the release of Volcanion we all noticed how Tangrowth, Amoonguss have become much more common, are good pivot, and have the differents characteristics, we begin by Tangrowth: Tangrowth is an excellent defensive pivot, thanks to regenerator has the possibility to be a good switch for many offensive minecce as mega lopunny, Bisharp, life orb Excadrill, Landorus, tang is very versatile, and can have two very good sets that they have different roles, the first is the coune assalult vest variant, this version works well for bulky offensive teams, and manages to handle threats like mega diancie, Keldeo locked in a water move, w-rotom, slowbro (no CM), also provides utilities using earthquake for different Heatran, and knock off some items to remove or switch as latios Clefable, tang hates status as burn and toxic, in fact a partner common is Heatran, which controls various typings as ice, flying, poison and fire; the other set that is becoming more common particularly in the last month is RH tang, rh tang is a great set that allows Tangrowth better control physical threats as mega lopunny, Terrakion, tyranitar also also has a good utility on pivoting on mixed attacker as a superpower Tornadus-t, this set weakens many pivots as jirachi, Landorus, torn-t, also provides a good utility through sleep powder, or leech seed to have a passive recovery, despite the high bulk physical, its low special defense does not allow him to control manaphy, mega diancie or resist two Specs Keldeo hydro pump. About Amoong, became as short a ou pokemon in effect, is also an excellent defensive pivot grass types, he definitely different from utility than tang, such as get on some fairy types as Clefable and Azumarill, amoonguss as tang is very good in bulky offense and also very good at stall builds, now has become a regular place of the much known Weavile stall recently become common, amoonguss do have the ability to control special diancie based mega, mega lopunny with the right evs), and controls Keldeo and loom very easily, finally, I really like the use of stun spores, which can give you many advantages against Tornadus-Therian, which after absorbing spores with another teammate, believed to safely get on amoonguss, this move is very effective in this metagame.
(talking about breakers)
As I said before, the metagame has given space to many breakers as mega garde, lopunny mega, mega Medicham, choice band Terrakion and tyranitar, charizard Y, now we analyze these one by one, to give a also idea of their characteristics in this metagame.
That's all for today, probably tomorrow we will talk a bit of Gastrodon, and its role in the metagame, see ya guys
That calc ignores max defense Garchomp, which is a thing.