Resource ORAS OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers MKII (Read the OP First!) (Now with 100% more Rules!!!)

I'm not a super great player but I would like to take a stab at the stall question mainly based off of playing on the ladder and watching tournament (and playing to a very limited extent) games. Overall I think there are a few reasons that stall is better on the ladder than in tournaments. I think a lot of players on the ladder don't prepare for stall very well (after all offense is more common even on the High Ladder) and don't want to play long games when they do encounter it. I've seen many players on the ladder squander a winning position against stall due to impatience and a bad attitude.

In a tournament setting the stakes for the games are much higher and players are more likely to take their time and not lose their cool against stall. Also the fact that players know who their opponent will be beforehand (unlike on the ladder where you don't know who your opponent will be beforehand) tends to be more of a disadvantage to players who like to play bulky teams than those who play offense. This is due to the fact that there are fewer bulkier archetypes that are effective (there are only maybe 3 effective common stall teams right now for instance) than offensive ones so if a player is known to use stall a lot they are easier to prepare for than an offensive player. Tournament players also tend to be slightly more skilled than ladder players and they know how to maximize their opportunities to a greater extent against stall.

Tournament players that wish to use stall to counteract a certain opponent can obviously still have success. However it is very difficult. As an example here is a replay of Ben Gay vs. Flaming Victini from the World Cup of Pokemon
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-175216

Ben Gay is a strong tournament player because he can play any play style with success and is very good at building innovative teams. Ben Gay actually got a pretty decent match-up looking at team preview (though not a free win by any means), seeing as he has multiple Manaphy checks (Clef, Goodra, Torn) and really only had to worry about a possible Banded Tyranitar which is checked at least decently well by Mega Steelix (though Superpower is an issue). However one missed toxic on Manaphy and it was all over. That's the risk with stall. Even if you think you can counter someone defensively it only takes one thing to go wrong for your whole team to be swept by a breaker.
 
Last edited:

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
I've just gotten back into the games after several years so I'm terribly out of touch, but would it be possible - even if it isn't advisable - to set up an all-dragon OU team? The very light reading I've done makes me think I'd like to try a tank Mega Altaria, but I've no real idea what I might want past that.
Possible? Sure, you can use anything in OU that isn't in ubers. Is it a good idea? Probably not. But monotype is a very popular other metagame if you want to go down that route, and even if you don't want to fight other monotype teams, looking at other mono-dragon teams might give you some ideas.
 
Possible? Sure, you can use anything in OU that isn't in ubers. Is it a good idea? Probably not. But monotype is a very popular other metagame if you want to go down that route, and even if you don't want to fight other monotype teams, looking at other mono-dragon teams might give you some ideas.
Thanks so much for the link!
 
I'm not a super great player but I would like to take a stab at the stall question mainly based off of playing on the ladder and watching tournament (and playing to a very limited extent) games. Overall I think there are a few reasons that stall is better on the ladder than in tournaments. I think a lot of players on the ladder don't prepare for stall very well (after all offense is more common even on the High Ladder) and don't want to play long games when they do encounter it. I've seen many players on the ladder squander a winning position against stall due to impatience and a bad attitude.

In a tournament setting the stakes for the games are much higher and players are more likely to take their time and not lose their cool against stall. Also the fact that players know who their opponent will be beforehand (unlike on the ladder where you don't know who your opponent will be beforehand) tends to be more of a disadvantage to players who like to play bulky teams than those who play offense. This is due to the fact that there are fewer bulkier archetypes that are effective (there are only maybe 3 effective common stall teams right now for instance) than offensive ones so if a player is known to use stall a lot they are easier to prepare for than an offensive player. Tournament players also tend to be slightly more skilled than ladder players and they know how to maximize their opportunities to a greater extent against stall.

Tournament players that wish to use stall to counteract a certain opponent can obviously still have success. However it is very difficult. As an example here is a replay of Ben Gay vs. Flaming Victini from the World Cup of Pokemon
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-175216

Ben Gay is a strong tournament player because he can play any play style with success and is very good at building innovative teams. Ben Gay actually got a pretty decent match-up looking at team preview (though not a free win by any means), seeing as he has multiple Manaphy checks (Clef, Goodra, Torn) and really only had to worry about a possible Banded Tyranitar which is checked at least decently well by Mega Steelix (though Superpower is an issue). However one missed toxic on Manaphy and it was all over. That's the risk with stall. Even if you think you can counter someone defensively it only takes one thing to go wrong for your whole team to be swept by a breaker.



also never run with more than 2 stall pokemon
 
The issue with stall is that it's the most matchup based playstyle of the three blanket playstyle (offense, balance, and stall) as well as the most predictable. Nowadays, full stall is basically just slight variants of ABR's Weav Stall with the 6th slot being swapped up between Doublade, Ttar, and Weav, or Branflakes' Shed stall, so if you want to be able to full stall, you just have to adequately prep in the building phase (which most competent players do if they're prepping for ladder).

To give you an idea of how easy it is to c-team stall, check out this replay (ty starry): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-410953062

On second thought, that replay doesn't really showcase it well but starry lost super hard regardless of that Weav pursuit play since Mana was TG + RD w/ Ice Beam.
 
Can someone explain why Clefable is S? Is Unaware just that good?
It's got a god like move pool with a variety of coverage moves, reliable recovery, heal bell, SR, Twave, and CM. Magic guard with CM, Twave, and Moonblast can potentially beat almost any team. Twave lets clef beat a lot of stuff it shouldn't, and CM magic guard with Softboiled boosts easily and cannot be stopped by toxic like many set up sweepers.
 
It's got a god like move pool with a variety of coverage moves, reliable recovery, heal bell, SR, Twave, and CM. Magic guard with CM, Twave, and Moonblast can potentially beat almost any team. Twave lets clef beat a lot of stuff it shouldn't, and CM magic guard with Softboiled boosts easily and cannot be stopped by toxic like many set up sweepers.
I guess in practice these traits come into play. But I figured with megas + Clefable's not great defensive stats that it would have a lot harder of a time in OU than it has.
 
I guess in practice these traits come into play. But I figured with megas + Clefable's not great defensive stats that it would have a lot harder of a time in OU than it has.
clef can afford to invest fully into either def or spdef depending on what it's running. it's got coverage to beat any check it wants to (including megas). plus, Twave just invalidates stuff 100% I mean 25% of the time.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Clefable is S rank because it is versatile, it doesn't have very many "true" counters in the respect that once it's got a T-wave off it is usually able to cheese most of them and because it is just generally easy to splash onto a lot of different archetypes without it ever really being dead weight. On it's own Clefable is more of an A rank Pokémon, but because Pokémon is 6v6 it becomes very apparent that Clefable is S rank when paired with the appropriate support (which it isn't even particularly dependent on tbf). There is more to it but that is a big part of the core reasoning. Also fwiw it is primarily S rank for it's CM+MG set rather than it's Unaware variants--which tend to only really fit on stall and suffer from a number of problems of their own.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
What has made Weavile so viable in ORAS when in XY he wasn't nearly used as much or effective?
ice crash move compatibiltyand flinch rate, ddance and wisp zardx not being everywhere like in xy, less azumarills, less venutran, less mgyarados, just to name a few reasons
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
Anyway, in the Metagame Discussion thread, I posted my Scarf Mamoswine set, but then Martin. said that Life Orb + 4 attacks Mamoswine was the only viable set.

I was confused about this because LO Mamoswine just doesn't seem like it really beats anything - it just falls so flat against Hyper Offense due to its relatively low speed, and it doesn't have quite enough power to beat stall (i.e. Skarmory), even with a Life Orb.

Additionally, it seems like it just gets worn down so fast due to Life Orb recoil, as well as constantly being forced out by waters, Scizor, etc.. The only things it looks like it can beat are things like defensive Landorus-T and Garchomp, who should know better than to stay in.

Basically, what I'm asking is: Why is LO + 4 Attacks Mamoswine good, and why is Scarf Mamoswine not good?
 
Anyway, in the Metagame Discussion thread, I posted my Scarf Mamoswine set, but then Martin. said that Life Orb + 4 attacks Mamoswine was the only viable set.

I was confused about this because LO Mamoswine just doesn't seem like it really beats anything - it just falls so flat against Hyper Offense due to its relatively low speed, and it doesn't have quite enough power to beat stall (i.e. Skarmory), even with a Life Orb.

Additionally, it seems like it just gets worn down so fast due to Life Orb recoil, as well as constantly being forced out by waters, Scizor, etc.. The only things it looks like it can beat are things like defensive Landorus-T and Garchomp, who should know better than to stay in.

Basically, what I'm asking is: Why is LO + 4 Attacks Mamoswine good, and why is Scarf Mamoswine not good?
Mamo needs to switch moves to be effective and abuse it's great neutral coverage, and as a result Scarf isn't great. Ice Shard also helps make up the ground against faster threats. As far as MU against stall goes, Mag can help beat Skarmory, especially where Mamo has the option to Knock Off potential Shed Shells. And Mamoswine's great neutral coverage makes it a great core breaker.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
lo 4 attacks pressures common offense teams in that its very difficult to switch into as common ground types relied on as a catch all for physical threats like garchomp/lando-t are all blown back by mamos ice stab and steel types are nailed by eq, while rotom and slowbro can by hit by freeze dry. scarf mamoswine lacks power and it can be played around a lot more easily, it's also pretty slow for a scarfer and doesn't have redeeming qualities slower scarfers like ttar offer.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Can someone remind me what the bold CM Clef spread is? Is it just full PhysDef or does it aim for a SpD benchmark?
 
Just a question: how common/viable is max Speed Jolly Bisharp in this current meta? I'm asking because I have a Mew set and I want it to be able to outspeed and get a burn on the majority of Bisharp out there, Lum Berry notwithstanding. If Jolly max Speed isn't that common I can invest some more needed EVs in Defense.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Just a question: how common/viable is max speed Jolly Bisharp in this current meta? I'm asking because I have a Mew set and I want it to be able to outspeed and get a burn on the majority of Bisharp out there. If Jolly max speed isn't that common I can invest some more needed EVs in Defense.
Bisharp pretty much always goes jolly nowadays so it's prolly worth the extra investment to outpace it.
 
alright thanks Martin. Smogon gives the Clefable Bold CM set as something that's pretty much full physdef:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell

Though it might be old and not really relevant to the current meta.

Edit: Speaking of which, how viable would a set like this be?

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Softboiled
- Flamethrower

I've never seen it before so assume there must be something wrong with it, but I don't know what.
 
Last edited:
I am new to Competitive Battling and was looking to build my first team and delve into it. I have watched many breeding videos and such so I know all about EVs, IVs, etc... but I am just very curious in how people build teams so easily? Like how is it that people can get perfect legendaries such as Heatran, Keldeo, Azelf, etc..? Are they using a hack of some sort or just getting really lucky? I was watching a youtuber called Shadypenguinn, and he also manages to build teams super easily so I am just wondering how is this possible? is there some sort of method to this.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 4)

Top