The point is that while they certainly aren't on every team, they are two new threats that were introduced to the metagame that significantly hamper mamoswines potential as a lead / stealth rocker.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
i think raikou should move up.
the set i am basing this nomination on is cm volt, which i personally believe to be the best set. cm volt is one of those sets that can feed itself. it wears down its own checks with volt switch, then sweeping when the time is right. also, it has amazing synergy with the threats of ORAS. its ability to beat every single bulky water 1v1, birds, and revenge kill frog if need be, lend itself to being great teammates to threats such as mega heracross(i really missed my chance to nom it up), mega lopunny, mega gallade, mega gyarados, and some others i'm missing. and its synergy with lando-t is superb. together they beat so many common threats while having great synergy that i use it on all of my bulky offense/offensively minded balance teams as it provides a wincon and relief pivot. while it is prone to being worn down and it faces competition from rotom-w, i personally believe it's worthy of a-.
the set i am basing this nomination on is cm volt, which i personally believe to be the best set. cm volt is one of those sets that can feed itself. it wears down its own checks with volt switch, then sweeping when the time is right. also, it has amazing synergy with the threats of ORAS. its ability to beat every single bulky water 1v1, birds, and revenge kill frog if need be, lend itself to being great teammates to threats such as mega heracross(i really missed my chance to nom it up), mega lopunny, mega gallade, mega gyarados, and some others i'm missing. and its synergy with lando-t is superb. together they beat so many common threats while having great synergy that i use it on all of my bulky offense/offensively minded balance teams as it provides a wincon and relief pivot. while it is prone to being worn down and it faces competition from rotom-w, i personally believe it's worthy of a-.
Mega Sableye is, however, on most every stall team -- hence, that's a whole playstyle Mamo can't handle as well anymore. Mega Lopunny isn't exactly uncommon either.
Grass Knot is really uncommon on Greninja right now, I mean it's not bad per se, I use it myself but I don't think I've ever faced it, 90% of Greninjas just run the standard Gunk Shot / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse / Low Kick or Hydro Pump set. I've actually seen more of both HP Fire and ESens than Grass Knot so yeah, Gyarados is pretty much as good a Greninja counter as you're going to get outside of Chansey/P2.
As someone who has only faced DD Gyara, never used it, I can safely say that this thing is a threat and a half (I have never actually won against it once). Although its initial power isn't that great, one of the best things about it is how ridiculously easily it sets up, it gets to like +2/+3 in an instant, sets up on things like Ferrothorn, Scarf Keldeo and Chesanught which are commonly used as answers to MGyara, and simply no-one prepares for it so it just wrecks teams.
Not to mention, there's a SpD RestTalk set running around that's able to handle Greninja, YZard and Landorus-I in one teamslot (GK doesn't even 2HKO) which is pretty impressive since those are 3 really powerful threats that are all ridiculously hard to wall let alone all at once (I have actually seen a shocking rise in Lando-I usage very recently, probably a reaction to the huge amount of stall on the ladder). So yeah, I can definitely see this thing move up to A-, from what I can tell it is very good.
As someone who has only faced DD Gyara, never used it, I can safely say that this thing is a threat and a half (I have never actually won against it once). Although its initial power isn't that great, one of the best things about it is how ridiculously easily it sets up, it gets to like +2/+3 in an instant, sets up on things like Ferrothorn, Scarf Keldeo and Chesanught which are commonly used as answers to MGyara, and simply no-one prepares for it so it just wrecks teams.
Not to mention, there's a SpD RestTalk set running around that's able to handle Greninja, YZard and Landorus-I in one teamslot (GK doesn't even 2HKO) which is pretty impressive since those are 3 really powerful threats that are all ridiculously hard to wall let alone all at once (I have actually seen a shocking rise in Lando-I usage very recently, probably a reaction to the huge amount of stall on the ladder). So yeah, I can definitely see this thing move up to A-, from what I can tell it is very good.
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DD Gyara is certainly a threat, but I run into grass knot Greninja at lease 4/10 times that I see Greninja, so it isn't that uncommon.
I mentioned this in another thread, but Bulky Gyarados + Healing Wish support (my favorite right now is Mega Lopunny) is really fun. Gyarados is one of those Pokemon that offers a great combination of offensive presence and sweeping ability alongside solid defensive utility. With Healing Wish support, I can play Gyarados more as a bulky tank earlier in the match and switch it more recklessly into opponents before restoring it with Healing Wish and sweeping later. Even without Healing Wish support, Gyarados can still be a solid switch-in to a handful of offensive Pokemon such as Keldeo (bar Scald burns) and Landorus-I, which is pretty valuable for offensive teams. Plus, as Albacore mentioned, people are so well prepared for Mega Gyarados right now (and for good reason) that they often don't take regular Gyarados into account as much as they should, which opens up plenty of opportunities to Gyarados to sweep in many games (especially when they switch in something like Chesnaught expecting you to eventually Mega evolve). I'd love to see this thing rise to A- rank.
Of course, you could end up facing gimmick grens like mine, with HP Grass/Extrasensory/Gunk Shot/Low Kick - good as a lure, nothing else.
Gyarados' main problem is his lack of coverage, and... that's literally it. He beats anybody who's 2HKO'd by either of his STABs at +1, and can even beat counters like Power Whip Ferrothorn if it gets enough boosts. It also only fears Thundurus-I and MegaMan out of all the viable electric-types, as Rotom-W is forced out after breaking the sub and all the other Electrics would be OHKO'd - even Thundurus is only good if sub is down. A- feels right for it.
Gyarados' main problem is his lack of coverage, and... that's literally it. He beats anybody who's 2HKO'd by either of his STABs at +1, and can even beat counters like Power Whip Ferrothorn if it gets enough boosts. It also only fears Thundurus-I and MegaMan out of all the viable electric-types, as Rotom-W is forced out after breaking the sub and all the other Electrics would be OHKO'd - even Thundurus is only good if sub is down. A- feels right for it.
yeah grass knot greninja is really uncommon, and its uncommon because its just way too specific of a move. Not to be rude, but just because you arbitrarily say you see 4/10 greninja with grass knot, does not make that a fact. The sad thing about gyarados for me, is what somebody pointed out earlier that although it can technically setup on chesnaught, it cant beat him because everytime he bounces ches can just spiky shield :( so that is unfortunate, but does not take away from the fact that gyarados is a great mon, and we did already discuss and agree to him moving to A- earlier in this thread, so hes pretty safe there I think.
As far as mamoswine goes, I have been using lead mamo with endeavor to great success. I mean if I see the opponent has a sableye I just simply lead with a mon that beats sableye so that I can force him out before he megas, and then bring mamo in to get the rocks up. Lopunny is however a nightmare, that thing just recks my team in general and is a nightmare for the type of teams that a suicide lead mamo would be on, so I agree that he has a few setbacks, but as far as suicide lead goes I still think he is one of the best, and his all out attacker set is still amazing as the genies are still prevalent as ever and mamo can also deal with a few of the new megas.
As far as mamoswine goes, I have been using lead mamo with endeavor to great success. I mean if I see the opponent has a sableye I just simply lead with a mon that beats sableye so that I can force him out before he megas, and then bring mamo in to get the rocks up. Lopunny is however a nightmare, that thing just recks my team in general and is a nightmare for the type of teams that a suicide lead mamo would be on, so I agree that he has a few setbacks, but as far as suicide lead goes I still think he is one of the best, and his all out attacker set is still amazing as the genies are still prevalent as ever and mamo can also deal with a few of the new megas.
Gyarados run Bounce...? I thought at the very least they all ran Crunch now.
I think they're talking about regular gyarados.
Jolteon is bad and shouldn't be used in OU. Just because it can outspeed Greninja doesn't make it good. A lot of other Pokemon can do that job better. You mentioned Raikou, but really, Raikou outclasses it in every aspect except the speed. Jolteon doesn't have any sort of bulk what so ever. It would struggle to take even resisted hits. Its Special Attack is lacking with out a boosting item. Jolteon should seriously be a blacklisted Pokemon y / y?
Tl;dr: Don't use Jolteon.
I know, but even then Bounce is surely a sub-par option despite being STAB.
Going to have to agree on Jolteon. Even with assault vest, Jolteon with only speed and damage investment takes average 50% from everything Greninja throws at it. It does take Magnezone well enough, but shadow ball and hidden power ground are your only way of hitting it back. Jolteon won't offer much to your team except countering this ONE pokemon.
Bounce is fine on regular Gyarados. It hits most everything that doesn't get hit hard by Waterfall for good damage. STAB Flying is too good to pass up for something like nob-STAB EQ or Crunch. Sure Protect causes issues, but outside of that Bounce is the superior option even if it takes two turns.
Not every team, true, but a lot of them do. Mega Lopunny is one of the best MEvos to use on offense, and Mega Sableye is one of the best MEvos to use on stall, so the effectiveness of lead Mamoswine has decreased quite a bit. Also, even if you carry Protect on Mamoswine, you just sacrificed a moveslot for it, and your set is less effective against other threats depending on which move you removed (Endeavor, Ice Shard, Stealth Rock). So no matter how prepared for those MEvos you are, the fact is that you are going to require more support to make lead Mamoswine work than you would before ORAS.
EDIT: ninja'd by boltsandbombers
Just to add to this, if you're gonna use Jolteon to take care of Greninja, please be aware that you can't switch in to Gunk Shot without losing most of your health, and you can only revenge kill it if they used Hydro Pump as their last move since Thunderbolt with Timid and an Assault vest fails to KO if Protean has changed Greninja to anything other than Water-type. Signal Beam doesn't even OHKO after a Dark Pulse. And you may as well be using Discharge at that point for the paralysis chance if you can't KO it in one shot and you're only using it for Greninja... just a thought :0 ((Plus you'll probably want to be looking at custom EV spreads, particularly in speed since Jolteon's gonna want some HP investment in that role.))
Here are a couple changes I'd like to see happen in the B ranks.
Sylveon for B
ARE WE JUST GONG TO IGNORE MY BABY?! D:<
I've stated this in this thread once and in the new Sylveon thread, but with most of these new Mega Evolutions being physical attackers, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross, Mega Swampert, Mega Beedrill and Mega Lopunny, having a special-attacking Fairy-type wallbreaker to get past physical walls such as Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro that does not take up a mega slot (uh-hum, Mega Gardevoir...) and even has the ability to be a pseudo-cleric with Heal Bell and gain momentum on her opponents with Baton Pass, Specs Sylveon got WAY better in ORAS. It also helps her case that Megas like Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade and Mega Latias are known users of Substitute, meaning they are not safe from a Choice Specs Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voice. Base Metagross is nearly OHKO'd by a Shadow Ball, as well. Good luck switching in! The factors keeping her away from B+, however, are her painfully slow speed of 60, her really low physical bulk of 65 and the reliance of a choice item to perform as a wallbreaker, but I strongly believe that despite all that, she's a lot better than the pokes residing in B- atm. Definitely better in ORAS OU than Mega Houndoom, Doublade and Mega Garchomp. Raise Sylveon to B rank.
Base Scizor for B+
In XY OU, it was foolhardy to use normal Scizor over its Mega, but while Mega Scizor is still very good in ORAS OU, its base form has gotten much more common with the introduction of new megas, as it is no longer as big of an opportunity cost as it was in XY OU. With threats like Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria and Mega Beedrill being very weak to Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch, this allows you the option to run another Mega Evolution of your choice while having the benefits of Scizor on your team. Scizor can also still perform the role of a bulky defogger, a role you wouldn't want to run on a Mega Scizor. Seeing what's in B rank as well, I believe base Scizor is better than Omastar, Quagsire (he has REALLY fallen from grace, sadly :c ) Lucario and Mega T-Tar. Raise Scizor to B+.
Empoleon to B.
Being one of the very few checks to Greninjas not carrying Low Kick and being the only Pokemon I can think of that 4x resists Ice, Empoleon definitely deserves a promotion. Water/Steel is a wonderfully unique and fantastic typing that gives it plenty of resistances (again, ICE IS 4X not very effective!!) and immunity to Toxic. If Greninja isn't running Low Kick (note that Empoleon is also immune to Gunk Shot), he's not breaking past this emperor penguin. For a defensive Pokemon, having a special attack stat of 111 is amazing, giving this special wall a bite to complement its long list of utilities, which include being a stealth rock setter, defogger, phaser and even a Choice Specs user if you're brave enough. Empoleon isn't without flaws, which imo keeps it from anything higher than B. While having a stellar typing, said typing is still weak to common attacking types, such as Fighting, Ground and Electric. Having no reliable recovery also hurts it, and its speed isn't stellar at 60. Raise Empoleon to B.
ARE WE JUST GONG TO IGNORE MY BABY?! D:<
I've stated this in this thread once and in the new Sylveon thread, but with most of these new Mega Evolutions being physical attackers, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross, Mega Swampert, Mega Beedrill and Mega Lopunny, having a special-attacking Fairy-type wallbreaker to get past physical walls such as Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro that does not take up a mega slot (uh-hum, Mega Gardevoir...) and even has the ability to be a pseudo-cleric with Heal Bell and gain momentum on her opponents with Baton Pass, Specs Sylveon got WAY better in ORAS. It also helps her case that Megas like Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade and Mega Latias are known users of Substitute, meaning they are not safe from a Choice Specs Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voice. Base Metagross is nearly OHKO'd by a Shadow Ball, as well. Good luck switching in! The factors keeping her away from B+, however, are her painfully slow speed of 60, her really low physical bulk of 65 and the reliance of a choice item to perform as a wallbreaker, but I strongly believe that despite all that, she's a lot better than the pokes residing in B- atm. Definitely better in ORAS OU than Mega Houndoom, Doublade and Mega Garchomp. Raise Sylveon to B rank.
In XY OU, it was foolhardy to use normal Scizor over its Mega, but while Mega Scizor is still very good in ORAS OU, its base form has gotten much more common with the introduction of new megas, as it is no longer as big of an opportunity cost as it was in XY OU. With threats like Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria and Mega Beedrill being very weak to Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch, this allows you the option to run another Mega Evolution of your choice while having the benefits of Scizor on your team. Scizor can also still perform the role of a bulky defogger, a role you wouldn't want to run on a Mega Scizor. Seeing what's in B rank as well, I believe base Scizor is better than Omastar, Quagsire (he has REALLY fallen from grace, sadly :c ) Lucario and Mega T-Tar. Raise Scizor to B+.
Being one of the very few checks to Greninjas not carrying Low Kick and being the only Pokemon I can think of that 4x resists Ice, Empoleon definitely deserves a promotion. Water/Steel is a wonderfully unique and fantastic typing that gives it plenty of resistances (again, ICE IS 4X not very effective!!) and immunity to Toxic. If Greninja isn't running Low Kick (note that Empoleon is also immune to Gunk Shot), he's not breaking past this emperor penguin. For a defensive Pokemon, having a special attack stat of 111 is amazing, giving this special wall a bite to complement its long list of utilities, which include being a stealth rock setter, defogger, phaser and even a Choice Specs user if you're brave enough. Empoleon isn't without flaws, which imo keeps it from anything higher than B. While having a stellar typing, said typing is still weak to common attacking types, such as Fighting, Ground and Electric. Having no reliable recovery also hurts it, and its speed isn't stellar at 60. Raise Empoleon to B.
lol guess what? Walrein 8x resists ice, boom!!Here are a couple changes I'd like to see happen in the B ranks.
Empoleon to B.
Being one of the very few checks to Greninjas not carrying Low Kick and being the only Pokemon I can think of that 4x resists Ice, Empoleon definitely deserves a promotion. Water/Steel is a wonderfully unique and fantastic typing that gives it plenty of resistances (again, ICE IS 4X not very effective!!) and immunity to Toxic. If Greninja isn't running Low Kick (note that Empoleon is also immune to Gunk Shot), he's not breaking past this emperor penguin. For a defensive Pokemon, having a special attack stat of 111 is amazing, giving this special wall a bite to complement its long list of utilities, which include being a stealth rock setter, defogger, phaser and even a Choice Specs user if you're brave enough. Empoleon isn't without flaws, which imo keeps it from anything higher than B. While having a stellar typing, said typing is still weak to common attacking types, such as Fighting, Ground and Electric. Having no reliable recovery also hurts it, and its speed isn't stellar at 60. Raise Empoleon to B.
Agreeing with you on the other points though, it is one very solid counter to most "standard" greninjas. It is also a very fantastic defogger in my own experience, and it looks very majestic :]
You can pretty much say this for every steel. Of course every defensive steel type wants to have leftovers. No reliable recovery is a valid argument, as it makes empoleon more reliant on lefties. Ferrothorn also suffers from this. It wants to run leftovers, but I've been seeing some shed shell ferrothorns. Ferrothorn doesn't have reliable recovery, the only recovery it has is leech seed. This doesn't prevent ferrothorn from being a great defensive mon however.
Still supporting empoleon to B.
One minor, but why do both calc use near full investment? Greninja obviously needs his speed, which means Gyarados virtually always has a move to switch into Greninja with.
In fact, the common Naive 40 Att/212 Sp. Att/ 252 Spe can't 2HKO (factoring Leftovers) without SR or Grass Knot, and can't OHKO even with those, so Gyarados can revenge with both conditions and check/counter without them (admittedly the latter is asking quite a bit)
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 211-250 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 136-161 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 157-187 (44.4 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Grass Knot's certainly viable, but I haven't seen anything suggesting it to be "standard" the way Gunk Shot or Ice Beam is, which does make Gyarados at least worth consideration.
A) Those were two different sets.
B) The Greninja set I run is a 244 atk EV set.
So why bother posting it at all? It doesn't prove anything. It's like saying that Lando T can't check Infernape because it might be running a fully special set with hidden power ice. Posting two different sets not only doesn't make sense, but it weakens your argument as well.
Just because it's a set you run, that doesn't mean that it makes that set automatically common lol. That's like saying Mega Sableye can't set up on Jirachi because I use Moonblast on it. Physical Greninja is an uncommon as fuck set and really subpar compared to the standard mixed set, so saying that Gyarados can't set up on Greninja because with max investment Gunk Shot 2HKOs it, is an irrelevant bias statement. The same goes with Grass Knot, which I see as a very poor choice as a coverage move in the current meta because you're already hitting Azu with Gunk Shot, 2HKOing Rotom-W and OHKOing Mega Slowbro with Dark Pulse, and nailing Mega Gyarados and Empoleon with Low Kick. I just don't see a reason to ever use it unless you desperately need it to check Suicune or something, but that's not even that reliable.
I don't really think it's a smart idea for Gyarados to set up on Ninja in the first place, especially if rocks are up, but I just wanted to point out that your argument was flawed in that just because something CAN run a certain set, doesn't mean that it should or will and can be used in arguments to support your claim. It just makes your arguments look less accurate.
Yay I love being ninjad.
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