Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Celticpride]

I wouldn't call Magnezone useless if there's nothing to trap. It still has 130 Special Attack, lots of switch in opportunities thanks to its bulk + resists, can check/revenge some stuff like Fairies, and makes a decent Volt Switch user. With a Scarf it's outspeeding most of the unboosted meta and can even clean up late game sometimes. There's also the fact that forcing Skarmory and Ferrothorn to run Shed Shell shows just how it's influencing the meta right now, even if it's detrimental to Magnezone to a degree. I think it deserves A (maybe A+?).

It's Scarf set actually isn't that fast. With Modest and max speed EVs it falls just below 330, and with max speed Timid it hits 360. That still puts it below the base 115s. I mean it's somewhat fast, but there's more than a handful of things out there that outspeed even at max speed with a Scarf. Secondly, and I'm not sure if this is the point you were trying to make, but impact on the meta really isn't a reason for something to move up. Skarm and Ferro are adapting by running Shed Shell. Even if that means they are both less effective without Leftovers or whatever else they would normally carry, that's more a case for them dropping then it is Mag rising. The time to raise Mag up was before Shed Shell became common, not after.

Also, Sgt. Stardust Ferro and Skarm actually don't need to switch into Knock Off as much as they used to. Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, and even Mega Slowbro are all very good Knock Off absorbers because of their lack of extra Knock Off damage and an item. For example:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Slowbro: 159-190 (40.3 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 91-109 (29.9 - 35.8%) -- 31.2% chance to 3HKO

Ferro and Skarm aren't really primary Knock Off absorbers anymore.

 

[Jukain]

I was away for the weekend so I haven't gotten to post yet. Some thoughts.

-> A+. First thing, although I know it's off-topic, TRC recommended I post. Mega Charizard X in no way, shape, or form should stay in S Rank. TRC expressed that he was rather unsure about where he wanted to rank it, in any case. I'm interested to hear what ben gay has to say, in any case, but here goes. The first and most immediate issue with Mega Charizard X is that its bulky Will-O-Wisp set is practically unviable in the current metagame. That's not to say that it can't work effectively, but the opportunity cost of using it over Mega Sableye or Mega Slowbro as a defensive Mega is simply far too high in order to justify its use as a defensive Pokemon. You can't even claim it has some sort of niche as a breaker, because Prankster Will-O-Wisp and difficult-to-break setup win conditions are certainly more effective as breakers. As far as DD is concerned, when you might say that the metagame is less prepared for it, this is more because of bad teambuilding than anything else. If anything, the increase in sand's popularity and rise of Pokemon like Scarf Keldeo, defensive vs Scarf Landorus-T, and Scarf Latios are rather major negatives for it.

The other problem is that it's competing far more for that slot as an ultra threatening DDer than before. Obviously there's Mega Salamence. If you think that's an unfair comparison, then take Mega Altaria. Mega Altaria boasts quite a bit over Mega Charizard X. It has far more bulk, objectively superior typing, and beats Pokemon like Slowbro, Heatran without even running EQ, Landorus-T, non-WW Hippowdon, and Scarf Latios/Keldeo. While it can have problems with Steel-types eg Skarmory and Ferrothorn, it has an option to beat these (Fire Blast), and these are fairly easy to remove given the right kind of support. It's much more difficult to contend with removing a Pokemon like Slowbro just to consider sweeping. Furthermore, Mega Altaria has the option to run multiple variants of its DD set, including the following: physically defensive, specially defensive, bulky offensive (248 HP with some Atk EVs + Adamant), all-out offensive, coverage moves (Fire Blast/EQ), and support/status prevention options (Heal Bell/Substitute). This isn't even mentioning the possibility to run specially based/mixed sets. Mega Charizard X boasts nowhere near this level of variety to its sets and utility for its team. Besides Mega Altaria, there's also an improved Mega Gyarados to contend with. Suffice it to say, Mega Charizard X has pretty objectively gotten worse as a result of the shifts in ORAS. Dropping it to A+ is very fair to it and definitely appropriate.

-> S. I agree with S for Mega Sableye. Flamer quoted my earlier post which goes a bit more in-depth and has some calcs that give a better picture of its bulk in the context of the OU metagame. If there's one thing that you should get from my post, it's that Mega Sableye brings control to stall teams that it's had in the past and hasn't had for XY, which is control in the hazard game. Hazards have been everything for beating stall this gen. With SR up, you could double on Chansey into Latios 2HKO range and break stall from there, and Spikes would just amplify this. Teams could be built in such a manner (CBB's team is the best example) that Defogging with a defensive Defogger would be virtually impossible, or at least prolonged to the point where the damage was already done. A reliable Magic Bouncer, as in it beats all but 2 of the SR setters (Clef Lando-I, and of those SR Clef can't stop CM Mega Sableye and Lando-I is common in favor of coverage or RP) and prevents Spikes users like Ferrothorn and Skarmory (Spikes Greninja is now uncommon because it has way too much coverage to run Spikes, plus this can be covered by a great partner called Tentacruel) from getting up their hazards. This combined with the anti-offense support of Prankster Will-O-Wisp and sheer devastation of the CM set as a sweeper makes Mega Sableye nothing short of incredible.

-> A. I don't agree with dropping Excadrill at all. If anything, ORAS has made sand better. Sure, it could be argued that the continuing popularity of Landorus-T and Rotom-W is a negative for it, but this is more than compensated for by all the fast new Pokemon that are slaughtered by it. Furthermore, SD Excadrill is an excellent way to help clear the way for the likes of Mega Gallade and Mega Altaria, and even LO Spin variants get to punish Mega Sableye pretty well. Sand is still going strong in ORAS, and Excadrill is at the forefront of it in stomping some of these fast, frail Pokemon and providing an invaluable offensive support.

-> A+. I'm grouping these together because they're pretty similar in how their roles impact the metagame. Rotom-W and Ferrothorn, along with Landorus-T which is already in A+, are the foundations for bulky offense and offensively minded balance in this metagame. These two Pokemon provide an enormous amount of threat coverage and utility for the team that is simply unparalleled. Rotom-W provides a solid check to threats like Talonflame, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Azumarill, and Excadrill, while faring well against an unbelievable amount of physical and even some special threats in 1v1 scenarios. It provides an invaluable Ground immunity and pivot with Volt Switch, both of which are traits heavily desired by OU teams. Furthermore, with the following spread - 248 HP / 88 Def / 124 SpD / 48 Spe Bold - that I've been running, it can tank two Dark Pulses from Greninja with Leftovers recovery after Stealth Rock damage, allowing it to serve as a check to that if necessary. Rotom-W's utility as a pivot and check to all kinds of threatening Pokemon makes it more than worthy of A+ Rank.

Similarly, Ferrothorn's defensive utility is simply superb in the current metagame. While it could be argued that Magnezone is severely detrimental to it, there's always the option to run Shed Shell if you want to get around it (others like this, I don't because I feel it doesn't last as well as I want it to, but this is just a matter of personal opinion), and this does not outweigh the sheer amount of utility Ferrothorn provides. So long as it doesn't run HP Fire, Ferrothorn is one of the few Pokemon that is a relatively safe answer to Greninja with the mixed defensive spread (252/88+/168) or even better a Sassy nature. It provides hazards, it checks Latios (which is running less HP Fire in favor of Roost Defog from what I've seen as of late), it checks Azumarill, it checks non-Hammer Arm (aka the majority of) Mega Metagross, it checks Mega Altaria, it checks Mega Diancie, it checks the improved Mega Gyarados, it does all of these things...while being able to provide invaluable entry hazard support for teams in the form of Stealth Rock or Spikes stack. Ferrothorn is another bulky offense/balance building block that definitively belongs in A+ Rank.

-> A+. People sleeping on this mon...Mega Altaria is crazy good. While the competition of Mence is of course there and present, Mega Altaria certainly has some traits for it to stand out. It profits from one of the best defensive typings in the game of Pokemon, which is Fairy/Dragon. This combined with its bulk lets it serve as a check to a myriad of threats, such as Mega Heracross, Latios, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Mega Slowbro, and Mega Sceptile. It can't even be revenge killed by conventional Scarfers, such as Landorus-T, Keldeo, and Latios. This sheer amount of threat coverage, bulk, and resistances grants Mega Altaria a myriad of opportunities to set up and pull off sweeps. I talked about this a bit in my Mega Charizard X comments, but to rehash a bit, this variety includes all of the following:

- EV spreads: physically defensive, specially defensive, bulky offensive, and all-out offensive;
- Supportive options/status prevention: Heal Bell and Substitute;
- Coverage options: Fire Blast and Earthquake.

This variety of options offers significant customization opportunities for Mega Altaria based on the type of team and what its teammates are able to cover. With its common bulky Heal Bell mono-attacker set, Mega Altaria is able to defeat common defensive Pokemon like Slowbro and Landorus-T with relative ease. More offensive sets can threaten Pokemon like Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory in a more efficient/effective manner. Mega Altaria can also run an effective specially based mixed set of Hyper Voice / Fire Blast / Earthquake / Roost and function as an excellent breaker, or even with Return over Hyper Voice and a more physically biased EV spread to bluff a DD set/have that source of physical offense. The versatility, ease of setting up, and sweeping capability that Mega Altaria brings to the table is enormous and makes it more than worthy of A+ Rank in the current metagame.

-> A-. I actually made an ORAS team based around Mega Aerodactyl earlier last week, recognizing its potential and effectiveness in the current metagame. While it certainly proved effective, I have to say that some of the hype around it is a little over the top. The only real viable set for Mega Aerodactyl atm is 4 attacks coverage. Other sets, like Taunt + Roost, simply don't have the coverage needed to take out some of these threats around and function effectively. It can check a lot of Pokemon offensively, but it also has a debilitating Stealth Rock weakness for something that wants to come in and wreak some havoc rather frequently, and possesses few - if any - real switch-in opportunities that it can capitalize on. Mega Aerodactyl is also hard-stopped by Slowbro which is very common atm, misses important KOs on Pokemon like Latios especially because it's forced to run a Jolly nature, has issues breaking Mega Sableye, and can pretty much always be checked by offense due to the effectiveness of Scarf Landorus-T and Keldeo. A- Rank is a perfectly fine rank and more than acceptable for Mega Aerodactyl given its rather noticeable flaws from my use of it in the ORAS metagame.

-> A. Mega Latias is by-and-large extremely overhyped. The first and most immediate problem is that it's way too slow to set up. What this means is that it can't keep up with the pace and tempo of offensive teams like, say, Mega Slowbro or Mega Sableye, which each have their own ways of doing so (more immediate power, Sableye's Prankster Will-O-Wisp). A+ Rank - let alone S, which has been brought up - also means it's comparable to Pokemon like Mega Slowbro, potentially Mega Altaria, and Mega Gallade, which it simply is not. I'd rather see Mega Latias drop than go up in rank.

-> A- (Heracross) and B- (Medicham). I grouped these together because they're commonly referred to as the 'wallbreaking Megas'. I'll start with Mega Medicham, which is borderline unusable in the current metagame tbf and B- is being generous. There's a Pokemon called Mega Gallade and a Pokemon called Mega Lopunny around; why would I use Mega Medicham over either of these? If I use Mega Gallade, I've got a faster, bulkier Pokemon with crazy wallbreaking and sweeping potential that far outclasses that of Mega Medicham. If I use Mega Lopunny, I'm working with something weaker, but that smashes through the omnipresent Mega Sableye and is crazy fast with unresisted STAB coverage? Yes please. Mega Medicham is outclassed by two extremely solid ORAS Mega introductions. This is a pretty clear-cut case of opportunity cost and being eclipsed by other, better Pokemon.

Mega Heracross being higher in rank is simply because I can sympathize with the fact that teams are less prepared for Mega Heracross as a whole. I don't buy the whole 'stall teams have trouble with it now' because that's just poor building, but the decrease in Acro Scor on balance is certainly a huge positive for it in that Mega Heracross has gained some propensity to break vs balance. Mega Heracross also beats some common Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, Landorus-T, Mega Slowbro, and Greninja 1v1, giving it some legitimate defensive utility on teams.

 

[Toad Le Lucario/fan de ea]

-> S rank
LOL, why the hell isn't mega gross S rank. Great bulk, typing attack, ability, movepool and versatility that makes it a threat to all teams, this thing is easy S rank.

-> S
A lot better in ORAS with so much fast stuff everywhere, 111 outspeeds mega gross and gallade which is also nice.Twave ;-;

-> A+
THIS THING IS A-!!??? Mega sableye is a bloody lord and one of the most dangerous megas in ORAS. Great bulk, ability pre mevo and after as well as excellent typing and movepool make this a ridiculous threat.

-> A-/B+
A tone of competition for a fast mega now, still a threat but has competiton.

-> B
Why hasn't this been done? Ridiculous competition with gallade who is almost 100% better, competely walled by mega sableye as well.

A-
So many new checks in mega gross, mega diancie, mega altaria and mega scept and loppuny that outspeed it even after a dd.

->A+ imo Sceptile is very contre rotom-wash and good speed. Sceptile+1 rip ;-;

 

[CrymsonEchidna]

--> A

Mega Swampert made rain so much better. The almost non-existance of Mega Charizard Y also helps rain out a lot. Though Politoed sucks as a Pokemon, it is the only reason that rain as a playstyle can exist. Since rain is definitely an A-rank playstyle in this speed-centric metagame, it's only logical that Politoed be ranked A too.

While rain support itself is nice, I would not say Politoed is an automatic A just because of it. Independently, Politoed has mediocre speed and doesn't offer much in the form of Special Attacking that another Pokemon like Greninja doesn't already do better. It's only function would be rain support Swampert so that's comes off as a C-Rank to me.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Politoed? C Rank? Wut?

Okay, Politoed may be a pretty bad Pokemon on its own, but that shouldn't be taken into account in its ranking. Here's the thing with Politoed that makes it very viable: It is the cornerstone of an entire playstyle (and a good one at that too). Politoed summons rain for its team, and its automatic rain is part of what makes rain teams so good right now, being able to make things like Kingdra, Kabutops, and Mega Swampert into complete monsters, while you can spam rain boosted Water Attacks, Thunder, Hurricane, etc. and just wreck stuff under the rain. Yes, Politoed sucks as a Pokemon, but its ability to summon a deadly playstyle makes it an A Rank Pokemon. I could accept it staying in A- or dropping to B+ at the worst. But C Rank? Please. Especially not anywhere below its fellow rain abusers Kabutops and Mega Swampert.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

While rain support itself is nice, I would not say Politoed is an automatic A just because of it. Independently, Politoed has mediocre speed and doesn't offer much in the form of Special Attacking that another Pokemon like Greninja doesn't already do better. It's only function would be rain support Swampert so that's comes off as a C-Rank to me.

If team support is a worthless attribute then Deo-D would not have been A+/S during its stay in OU.

Without Drizzle, Politoed is quite terrible, but Drizzle is such a powerful ability that allows it to support a large number of pokemon (waters, electrics, steels and other fire weak stuff, things with Hurricane, and most notably Swift Swimmers) and make a whole archetype viable (Rain offense without Politoed is just non-functional, it's not any good.)

 

[alexwolf]

I agree with most of what Jukain posted, with two exceptions. The first is about Ferrothorn. Two are the things that make me believe that Ferrothorn is not A+ rank material. First, many of the Pokemon that Ferro checks can actually deal with it if they want to. Latios, Latias, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Greninja, all of those Pokemon can 2HKO Ferro if they are carrying HP Fire, Hammer Arm, Fire Blast, or Superpower, all of which are viable moves on those Pokemon in general, and outside of Azumarill, which uses Superpower only for Ferro, have use outside of dealing with Ferrothorn. This means that while Ferrothorn checks a lot of stuff, it doesn't do it reliably and to the extend i would expect from an A+ defensive threat to. The second reason why Ferrothorn is not A+ rank is Mega Sableye. Mega Sableye completely walls Ferrothorn, and not only this, but prevents it from getting any healing with Leech Seed or supporting its team with hazards. So you are left with a slow as fuck Pokemon that is incredibly easy to wear down and can't provide any kind of support to its team, so basically a huge pile of set up bait. Ferrothorn used to have lots of merits against balanced and stall teams thanks to its ability to lay down hazards and provide switch in opportunities to its teammates with Leech Seed, but Mega Sableye stops this.

The second thing i disagree is Mega Sableye to S rank. Well, i don't exactly disagree, i just think that people are throwing the S rank suggestion too hastily and without actually thinking how the metagame can and has already adapted to Mega Sableye. The notion that Mega Sableye beats all bar two SR setters is misguided. Did you seriously expect offensive teams to sit with their hands tied and give up on finding ways to set up SR against Mega Sableye teams? One of their most important sources of damage and best ways to prepare the sweep of their win conditions? Outside of SR Landorus and SR Clefable, both great SR setters, there are Earth Plate max Atk Adamant Landorus-T, SD Lum Berry Garchomp, SD Terrakion, Heatran, Mega Diancie, Mega Swampert under rain, and even Mold Breaker Excadrill, though the last one may be a bit gimmicky. Not only this, but Mega Sableye is not as hard to deal with as people are making it to be. I mean, it's hard to deal with, sure, and definitely hard enough for an A+ rank threat, but to the level of an S rank threat? Not sure... Here is a list of good checks and counters to Mega Sableye: SD Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Daincie, CM Clefable, TG Manaphy, any Mega Charizard X set with an Adamant nature and Flare Blitz, Mega Charizard Y, Sub Mega Gyarados, Suicune, NP Mega Houndoom, NP Togekiss, Mega Lopunny, and Azumarill (Mega Gyarados and the latter two struggle to switch in though). That's honestly not a small list for an S rank threat. Nobody disagrees about how big of a boon Mega Sableye is for defensive teams, but can we take a breath and not overhype our new shiny toys?

Also, Mega Lopunny should go to A+. Amazing speed tier, coverage, supporting abilities (Healing Wish, SubPass, Encore), and versatility, with great power, and it's only real disadvantage being that it doesn't contribute anything defensively on teams, though the Dark resistance comes handy for Bisharp's Sucker Punch. Even hard counters such as Mega Slowbro, Celebi, and Mega Altaria can be taken advantage of with the SubPass set, making Mega Lopunny useful no matter what the matchup may be.

Oh and TRC changed his vote, so Mega Charizard X is going down to A+ rank.

 

[naturalstupidity]

While rain support itself is nice, I would not say Politoed is an automatic A just because of it. Independently, Politoed has mediocre speed and doesn't offer much in the form of Special Attacking that another Pokemon like Greninja doesn't already do better. It's only function would be rain support Swampert so that's comes off as a C-Rank to me.

Why are we to assume that we should be ranking Politoed based solely on its independent capabilities? Team support and team utility are key things to consider when determining the rank of a Pokemon, and Politoed is the only reason why an excellent playstyle is able to exist. Rain offense is a solidly A ranked playstyle for reasons that have been established, and Politoed is the cornerstone of that playstyle. Wouldn't you agree that, since team support is a valid criterion for ranking a Pokemon, that Politoed deserves to be A for providing the fundamental support for an A-level playstyle?

 

[Jukain]

Definitely agree with moving Mega Lopunny up. It's really good.

Anyways, in response to stuff mentioned about Mega Sableye alexwolf. I'll admit that 'all but two SR setters' is a bit exaggerated, but it's not that far off. SD SR Terrakion, Mega Diancie, and Mega Swampert are not really viable sets. SD SR Terrakion is just trying to do too much. It's not bulky enough and doesn't get the opportunities needed to pull those both off, unlike Garchomp, which also eclipses it in a lot of aspects. Plus, Terrakion's niche as a lead SR setter is fast Taunt to prevent other setters. Otherwise, you use Garchomp or Mamoswine. SR Mega Diancie and Mega Swampert are just wastes of potential, Mega Diancie having many options competing for its moveslots including 4-move coverage and 2 boosting moves, and Mega Swampert really wanting all of Waterfall / Earthquake / Superpower / Ice Punch. Neither wants to be wasting turns either. They want to be firing off powerful attacks and doing damage at every opportunity; SR wastes this. Mold Breaker SR Excadrill is kinda a gimmick, too, like you said. You can add offensive Heatran, EP Lando-T (though that set is merely ok in many respects), and SD Lum Garchomp to the list of SR mons that can get up SR against Mega Sableye. However, this doesn't change the fact that Mega Sableye beats many common SR setters and pretty much is a hard stop to Spikes getting up ever. The majority of setters that can get up Rocks vs Mega Sableye aren't that popular, and besides Clefable (which again doesn't beat CM Mega Sableye if it runs a SR set), certainly not as much as setters like defensive Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, defensive Heatran, non-SD Terrakion, Mamoswine, and Chansey that Mega Sableye dumps all over.

Your list of checks/counters isn't necessarily damning to Mega Sableye, imo. Many of those Pokemon, like Mega Houndoom, Mega Charizard Y, Togekiss, TG Manaphy, and Suicune, aren't that popular or relevant in the current metagame, which speaks for the fact that teams have to run specialized answers to Mega Sableye. I'll also say that SD Talonflame is certainly far from a perfect answer, considering SR off the field is a requisite for it to actually win. Furthermore, as you said, Pokemon like Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Lopunny struggle to switch in. I'd add even Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie too that list; they don't really enjoy switching directly in, either. Mega Sableye also brings such sheer utility alongside that sweeping capability that I think it's excusable for it to have more possible stops to its sweep than your typical S Rank Pokemon.

Here's how I see it. Mega Sableye is one of the defining Pokemon of current ORAS. The metagame is infested with Mega Sableye stall teams, and they are crazy effective due to the level of control and sweeping capability that Mega Sableye provides. Also, Mega Metagross is S Rank. Not that I disagree with this, but I think Mega Sableye is at least the same amount if not more defining and scary than Mega Metagross. Just some additional thoughts beyond discussing its characteristics.

 

[alexwolf]

Definitely agree with moving Mega Lopunny up. It's really good.

Anyways, in response to stuff mentioned about Mega Sableye alexwolf. I'll admit that 'all but two SR setters' is a bit exaggerated, but it's not that far off. SD SR Terrakion, Mega Diancie, and Mega Swampert are not really viable sets. SD SR Terrakion is just trying to do too much. It's not bulky enough and doesn't get the opportunities needed to pull those both off, unlike Garchomp, which also eclipses it in a lot of aspects. Plus, Terrakion's niche as a lead SR setter is fast Taunt to prevent other setters. Otherwise, you use Garchomp or Mamoswine. SR Mega Diancie and Mega Swampert are just wastes of potential, Mega Diancie having many options competing for its moveslots including 4-move coverage and 2 boosting moves, and Mega Swampert really wanting all of Waterfall / Earthquake / Superpower / Ice Punch. Neither wants to be wasting turns either. They want to be firing off powerful attacks and doing damage at every opportunity; SR wastes this. Mold Breaker SR Excadrill is kinda a gimmick, too, like you said. You can add offensive Heatran, EP Lando-T (though that set is merely ok in many respects), and SD Lum Garchomp to the list of SR mons that can get up SR against Mega Sableye. However, this doesn't change the fact that Mega Sableye beats many common SR setters and pretty much is a hard stop to Spikes getting up ever. The majority of setters that can get up Rocks vs Mega Sableye aren't that popular, and besides Clefable (which again doesn't beat CM Mega Sableye if it runs a SR set), certainly not as much as setters like defensive Landorus-T, Ferrothorn, defensive Heatran, non-SD Terrakion, Mamoswine, and Chansey that Mega Sableye dumps all over.

Your list of checks/counters isn't necessarily damning to Mega Sableye, imo. Many of those Pokemon, like Mega Houndoom, Mega Charizard Y, Togekiss, TG Manaphy, and Suicune, aren't that popular or relevant in the current metagame, which speaks for the fact that teams have to run specialized answers to Mega Sableye. I'll also say that SD Talonflame is certainly far from a perfect answer, considering SR off the field is a requisite for it to actually win. Furthermore, as you said, Pokemon like Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Lopunny struggle to switch in. I'd add even Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie too that list; they don't really enjoy switching directly in, either. Mega Sableye also brings such sheer utility alongside that sweeping capability that I think it's excusable for it to have more possible stops to its sweep than your typical S Rank Pokemon.

Here's how I see it. Mega Sableye is one of the defining Pokemon of current ORAS. The metagame is infested with Mega Sableye stall teams, and they are crazy effective due to the level of control and sweeping capability that Mega Sableye provides. Also, Mega Metagross is S Rank. Not that I disagree with this, but I think Mega Sableye is at least the same amount if not more defining and scary than Mega Metagross. Just some additional thoughts beyond discussing its characteristics.

I don't want to go in details, but you are being very narrow minded if you consider SR Mega Diancie, SR + SD Terrakon, and SR Mega Swampert bad sets or unviable, the first of which pretty much has a free slot and the ability to beat many common anti-SR Pokemon, Terrakion threatening different Pokemon than Garchomp, and the latter of which has great bulk and ample of opportunities to set up SR, while Superpower is far from a must. The fact that those three all have great offensive presence, the moveslot to spare, and beat Mega Sableye makes them viable SR setters by default.

As far as Sableye's checks and counters go, there are quite a bit of them, some of them popular and some of them not, but all pretty viable nontheless. Usage means nothing when you want to cover a threat, so as long as viable checks exist, Mega Sableye is not super hard to take care of. And should i remind you that the metagame barely had any time to adapt to Mega Sableye, and if it's as dominant as you say it is (which i definitely agree with), many of its checks and counters will become more prominent. Finally, none of the Pokemon i mentioned are really specialized. All of those Pokemon have multiple uses and provide various advantages to any team, so it's not like their only use is beating Mega Sableye.

 

[Numera]

-> A-. I actually made an ORAS team based around Mega Aerodactyl earlier last week, recognizing its potential and effectiveness in the current metagame. While it certainly proved effective, I have to say that some of the hype around it is a little over the top. The only real viable set for Mega Aerodactyl atm is 4 attacks coverage. Other sets, like Taunt + Roost, simply don't have the coverage needed to take out some of these threats around and function effectively. It can check a lot of Pokemon offensively, but it also has a debilitating Stealth Rock weakness for something that wants to come in and wreak some bu havoc rather frequently, and possesses few - if any - real switch-in opportunities that it can capitalize on. Mega Aerodactyl is also hard-stopped by Slowbro which is very common atm, misses important KOs on Pokemon like Latios especially because it's forced to run a Jolly nature, has issues breaking Mega Sableye, and can pretty much always be checked by offense due to the effectiveness of Scarf Landorus-T and Keldeo. A- Rank is a perfectly fine rank and more than acceptable for Mega Aerodactyl given its rather noticeable flaws from my use of it in the ORAS metagame.

See, I get what you're trying to say, but it almost seems like the truth has been bent. I'll tackle things in the post one by one. First of all, you say "It can check a lot of Pokemon offensively," but then you completely dismiss this fact like it means nothing. In the current metagame, Greninja, Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile are just 3 examples of fast Pokemon who are really strong as of now and completely destroy offence. What does Mega Aerodactyl do? CHECK ALL 3. For an offensive team, being able to check all 3 of them is a HUGE burden taken off of the rest of the team's head; all of them can be extremely threatening to offence and having one Pokemon to check all 3 is really something.

SR weakness really is a pain, yeah. Thankfully Defog is still viable as always. Still, though, that SR weakness does effect it's usefulness.

Mega Aerodactyl always had a problem with stall mons... if you dismiss Taunt Roost as unviable, that is. It actually does a lot for offence in the hope of stopping defensive threats either supporting their own team or threatening to set up. I can imagine it still works in that regard just in a completely different way to the 4 attacks set.

It's interesting to note that with rocks up + any prior damage (so like LIFE ORB) you always OHKO Latios, and by extension a large amount of other offensive Pokemon.

Overall, I just feel that you don't give it's positive traits enough credit. You just seem to use it's negative traits from XY + a couple new ORAS megas (lmao apart from the offensive ones) and do NOT give it enough credit with all of the new things it can do. You've probably been looking for negative things to find and ignoring the positives whilst playing with it, tbh. I'd argue it can got to A Rank for it's ability to check 3 of the biggest threats to offensive teams and becoming a threat in it's own right as a result.

 

[Gloating]

Some thoughts:

Excadrill: I don't understand why some people want this to drop. It's really good in OR/AS being able to outspeed virtually everything under sand. Scarf Lando is a terrible check as it's 2HKO'd by -1 Iron Head after Stealth Rock and defensive Lando lacks recovery to be able to come in multiple times reliably. Rotom-W can be worn down and is hit hard by a LO Rock Slide which can further be boosted by SD. Skarmory is a shaky counter too because it often carries Shed Shell so after a bit of damage it can get 2HKO'd by +2 Rock Slide after SR. Those are it's supposed counters but are shaky at best. I think most people run/face Rapid Spin variants but IMO SD is much better for the reasons I stated above. I find that they are pretty easy to set up too. I'd say Excadrill has only got better in this meta. It's a great revenge killer, checks bird spam, and can sweep and wall break with SD all in one slot. Do not drop IMO. Only support it needs is Tyranitar who is already a good Pokemon in itself. Mold Breaker Drill also has a new niche being able to set up Rocks against Mega Sableye. Though gimmicky it may prove to be very useful if Mega Sableye really gets out of hand. Keep in A. To be honest It's probably even worthy of A+

Tyranitar: I think Tyranitar has mostly been the same as it was in XY OU. CB is more viable now I guess. Smooth Rock is the best item to abuse Excadrill as much as possible and is the set I use most often. I've also found that with Ice Beam it can usually beat most Mega Salamence so that's a nice perk. Everything else is the same for the green T-rex. Gives your team free residual damage on opponent's team, way to change weather against rain teams, beats the Latis reliably, etc. Maybe bump it a rank or is fine at A- but should never go any lower than that.

Mega Sceptile: Mega Sceptile is actually pretty good against Hyper Offense but falls short of A+ because it's not hard to wall at all. Without any boosts good luck getting past things like Celebi, Mew, Chansey etc. There are better Megas you could be using instead too so it's fine where it's at in my opinion.

Mega Sableye: I haven't had trouble at all with this so far. While on paper it seems like the perfect anti hazard mon it can't guarantee it 100% because you risk taking a big hit trying to come in on a predicted Stealth Rock. Those buffed defenses only take it so far. While it's a fantastic mon for stall (I totally called it that this thing would be good) I think we should wait after post mence meta and everything settles down before calling it S just yet.

Other things I agree with but can't be bothered to talk about:

Dragonite dropping.
Mega Medicham dropping.
Mega Tyranitar dropping.

 

[WideTomato]

(A-) ---> S
I personally think mage sableye should move a rank up, and here's why.​

Mage sableyes usefulness mainly lies in its two great abilities; prankster (before mega evolving- and on the turn it evolves) and magic bounce (after mega evolving- and the turn it evolves). the combination of its ability makes it a (if not the greatest) mon on every stallteam, as it prevents one of stalls biggest problems, hazard. Not only can sableye prevent hazard (to a degree at least) it can also 1v1 most hazard setters, the only two that can effectively beat it and get up hazard are clefable and mold breaker excadrill (though sableye still kills exca).

Its most useful set is probably the wisp + calm mind, which actually means it have a large offensive presence against offence, which many stall teams tend to lack, and it can actually pull a sweep later in a game thanks to its absolutely great mixed bulk, ones it has a few calm minds under its belt. Ones again this takes really god use of its ability as it can get a free +1/+1 before taking a special hit, or a wisp off before taking a physical. It can even fully abuse prankster to get even more cm's off, if its up against a weak special attacker, making it ridiculously hard to take out later in the match.

Mega sableyes usefulness is not even limited to stall teams, it can also act as a defensive backbone on more offensive or balanced build teams, who appreciates a clean field without hazard. Sableyes sheer presence makes the opponent think twice before using their rocks, as they might as well lay it down on their own side. Sableye can also pretty easily deal with some of the scariest sweepers, such as mega swampert, mega galade, diggersby, terakion, dragonite, mega heracross, mega scizor, bisharp and the list goes on, making it even better on offence.

Thanks for reading ^~^

 

[Teeny Victory]

A- to A+/S
I definitely agree with this. Sable just does so much for stall, it checks/counters so much threatening stuff, can stallbreak with its amazing ability, typing and bulk, stops hazards from being stacked , can emergency check a sweeper with prankster will-o-wisp before mega, and even sweep. Its just so damn versatile and supplies stall with all the things it seemed to be missing in XY. So can definitely see it in S
A to A+
I've frequently used this lately, and can vouch for it being absolutely beautiful amazing. It can work as a good glue on balanced, being able to sweep, heal status, deal with threats, hit like a nuke and is very VERY unpredictable, so you never know what its gonna do. It also emergency checks mence with pixilate hyper voice (which goes through subs), which is something every team needs atm. So I can definitely see it in A+, possibly even S in the future depending on how the metagame develops, but A+ is fine for now.
A to A
Why do we want this to move down exactly? Sand got better in the meta shift, not worse. All these fast frail threats like mega sceptile, mega Beedrill, Greninja, Weavile, Mega Loppuny etc are really hard for offence to check/revenge kill, and Exca does this wonderfully. Its common Checks/Counters such as Lando-t and Rotom-W are also incredibly easy to wear down with all the switching they do, so it never really seems to have a hard time sweeping offensive teams, as these are the only things keeping offence from being eaten live by exca, as people seem to be preparing less and less for sand, so I think it deserves to stay A for now.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

 

[Alfalfa]

I agree with most of what Jukain posted, with two exceptions. The first is about Ferrothorn. Two are the things that make me believe that Ferrothorn is not A+ rank material. First, many of the Pokemon that Ferro checks can actually deal with it if they want to. Latios, Latias, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, and Greninja, all of those Pokemon can 2HKO Ferro if they are carrying HP Fire, Hammer Arm, Fire Blast, or Superpower, all of which are viable moves on those Pokemon in general, and outside of Azumarill, which uses Superpower only for Ferro, have use outside of dealing with Ferrothorn. This means that while Ferrothorn checks a lot of stuff, it doesn't do it reliably and to the extend i would expect from an A+ defensive threat to. The second reason why Ferrothorn is not A+ rank is Mega Sableye. Mega Sableye completely walls Ferrothorn, and not only this, but prevents it from getting any healing with Leech Seed or supporting its team with hazards. So you are left with a slow as fuck Pokemon that is incredibly easy to wear down and can't provide any kind of support to its team, so basically a huge pile of set up bait. Ferrothorn used to have lots of merits against balanced and stall teams thanks to its ability to lay down hazards and provide switch in opportunities to its teammates with Leech Seed, but Mega Sableye stops this.

The second thing i disagree is Mega Sableye to S rank. Well, i don't exactly disagree, i just think that people are throwing the S rank suggestion too hastily and without actually thinking how the metagame can and has already adapted to Mega Sableye. The notion that Mega Sableye beats all bar two SR setters is misguided. Did you seriously expect offensive teams to sit with their hands tied and give up on finding ways to set up SR against Mega Sableye teams? One of their most important sources of damage and best ways to prepare the sweep of their win conditions? Outside of SR Landorus and SR Clefable, both great SR setters, there are Earth Plate max Atk Adamant Landorus-T, SD Lum Berry Garchomp, SD Terrakion, Heatran, Mega Diancie, Mega Swampert under rain, and even Mold Breaker Excadrill, though the last one may be a bit gimmicky. Not only this, but Mega Sableye is not as hard to deal with as people are making it to be. I mean, it's hard to deal with, sure, and definitely hard enough for an A+ rank threat, but to the level of an S rank threat? Not sure... Here is a list of good checks and counters to Mega Sableye: SD Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Daincie, CM Clefable, TG Manaphy, any Mega Charizard X set with an Adamant nature and Flare Blitz, Mega Charizard Y, Sub Mega Gyarados, Suicune, NP Mega Houndoom, NP Togekiss, Mega Lopunny, and Azumarill (Mega Gyarados and the latter two struggle to switch in though). That's honestly not a small list for an S rank threat. Nobody disagrees about how big of a boon Mega Sableye is for defensive teams, but can we take a breath and not overhype our new shiny toys?

Also, Mega Lopunny should go to A+. Amazing speed tier, coverage, supporting abilities (Healing Wish, SubPass, Encore), and versatility, with great power, and it's only real disadvantage being that it doesn't contribute anything defensively on teams, though the Dark resistance comes handy for Bisharp's Sucker Punch. Even hard counters such as Mega Slowbro, Celebi, and Mega Altaria can be taken advantage of with the SubPass set, making Mega Lopunny useful no matter what the matchup may be.

Oh and TRC changed his vote, so Mega Charizard X is going down to A+ rank.

Yeah, I do not see Zard X on par with Greninja. Greninja itself is extremely dangerous and considerably difficult for offensive teams to beat, whereas we need some time to observe Zard X's effectiveness in the metagame before we keep it in S Rank.

 

[heritage]

-> S rank
LOL, why the hell isn't mega gross S rank. Great bulk, typing attack, ability, movepool and versatility that makes it a threat to all teams, this thing is easy S rank.

-> A-/B+
A tone of competition for a fast mega now, still a threat but has competiton.

A couple things to note here.

1) I personally don't think Mega Gross should be S. Sure, it packs a hell of a lot of firepower, but it's typing leaves it short-handed. It's weak to a lot of common attacking typings, like Dark, Ghost and Ground, and if it doesn't carry Ice Punch, Landorus can do a hefty toll to it. Not to mention that 110 Speed is good, but not too particularly fast for a Mega. It has Agility, but that's just a move you have to use to fill up a space in your move slot that's supposed to be used for coverage. I'm not saying it's bad by any means though. It's a solid A+ 'Mon for sure, but S is over-shooting it.

And 2) If anything, Mega Manectric only got better in the transition to ORAS. The speedy double Intimidate Volt-Turn combo is a fantastic thing to have with all of these strong physical attackers in the top tier. Manectric is probably the best Electric attacker in the tier. Manectric should actually move up to A+.

Everything else I agree with though.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

I wouldn't put Mega Sableye in S rank. With the boosted defenses and Magic Guard it is definitely difficult to take down, but due to its low speed and loss of prankster it often finds itself spamming recover vs offense. This very low speed means its extra bulk is somewhat less useful. The main point here is that your choice of check will always hit a mega sableye first before it cms again or burns you. I'd say its A+ due to the current prominence of certain checks like clefable.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I wouldn't put Mega Sableye in S rank. With the boosted defenses and Magic Guard it is definitely difficult to take down, but due to its low speed and loss of prankster it often finds itself spamming recover vs offense. This very low speed means its extra bulk is somewhat less useful. The main point here is that your choice of check will always hit a mega sableye first before it cms again or burns you. I'd say its A+ due to the current prominence of certain checks like clefable.

As far as I see it, it shouldn't be S because of its ability to take on offense (which it can), it should be S because of the amount of things it does in one Slot of a 6 'Mon team. It IS support, it doesn't need much if any to do its job, and do it well. Yes, of course there are things that put some hurt on it, just as there are with mega mence, but the amount of things mEye does alone is what should put it in S.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Mega Sableye: A- ---> A

Sorry but what's so great about Mega Sableye that you people want it to rise all the way to S rank? Have you considered that it can't switch on anything? Especially on a stall team? I do agree it should move up to A rank, due to its ability to check physical attackers rather well, easily set up and attempt to sweep unprepared teams if it gains enough momentum and IF it predicts correctly, especially against powerful physical attackers. Guess what? Don't let it do what it wants to do. Not that hard, considering there are many Pokemon which can easily check it, such as Talonflame, Mega Gyara (especially with Sub), special attacking Fairy-types (Sylveon, Mega Gardy/Diancie, Togekiss, Clefable), Victini (CB V-create OHKOes with a bit of prior damage), Zard X, etc. If you say "oh, but you have teammates", then is Mega Sableye a S-rank deserving 'mon? Probably not. Especially on stall teams (although I do admit almost every stall team should use Mega Sableye...)

Mega Sableye's problem is the following: it can't do both jobs at the same time. Otherwise it'd easily deserve S+ rank. Between its opportunity cost, a huge toss-up between Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, coinflips, horrible bulk prior to going mega and lack of Leftovers recovery, Mega Sableye has imo enough flaws by itself to not be S. Once it mega evolves, it becomes depressingly slow and becomes complete set up fodder for Calm Minding fairies, as well as Zard X and SD Talonflame, especially if SR is not up.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Mega Sableye: A- ---> A

Sorry but what's so great about Mega Sableye that you people want it to rise all the way to S rank? Have you considered that it can't switch on anything? Especially on a stall team? I do agree it should move up to A rank, due to its ability to check physical attackers rather well, easily set up and attempt to sweep unprepared teams if it gains enough momentum and IF it predicts correctly, especially against powerful physical attackers. Guess what? Don't let it do what it wants to do. Not that hard, considering there are many Pokemon which can easily check it, such as Talonflame, Mega Gyara (especially with Sub), special attacking Fairy-types (Sylveon, Mega Gardy/Diancie, Togekiss, Clefable), Victini (CB V-create OHKOes with a bit of prior damage), Zard X, etc. If you say "oh, but you have teammates", then is Mega Sableye a S-rank deserving 'mon? Probably not. Especially on stall teams (although I do admit almost every stall team should use Mega Sableye...)

Mega Sableye's problem is the following: it can't do both jobs at the same time. Otherwise it'd easily deserve S+ rank. Between its opportunity cost, a huge toss-up between Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, coinflips, horrible bulk prior to going mega and lack of Leftovers recovery, Mega Sableye has imo enough flaws by itself to not be S. Once it mega evolves, it becomes depressingly slow and becomes complete set up fodder for Calm Minding fairies, as well as Zard X and SD Talonflame, especially if SR is not up.

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%)
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%)
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%)
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

It can easily switch into most SR setters which is its job. Honestly you really seem to have no clue what you are talking about.
Why would you send Sabeleye in vs Victini or ZardX or fairies for?
It job is to stop SR setters and weak physical attackers which it does perfectly.

Its A+ minimum and possibly S.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

u wot m8

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

You are assuming Sableye can easily switch in, but it can only do this after going mega... (well, it does a good job against Terrak) and considering these setters are leads (bar Lando-T), you need to predict and anti-lead against them.

 

[theV8man]

u wot m8

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

You are assuming Sableye can easily switch in, but it can only do this after going mega... (well, it does a good job against Terrak) and considering these setters are leads (bar Lando-T), you need to predict and anti-lead against them.

Sableye switches in on Gallade, Medicham, Conkeldurr for free and a bunch of other physical attackers. You also obviously have other teammates to take the really heavy hits, but taking those super heavy hits isn't Sableye's primary function.

 

[pika pal]

u wot m8

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

You are assuming Sableye can easily switch in, but it can only do this after going mega... (well, it does a good job against Terrak) and considering these setters are leads (bar Lando-T), you need to predict and anti-lead against them.

In counter-argument, Sableye's presence alone means the opponent has to predict before they choose their lead as well. If Sableye anti-leads against them, the opponent is at a greater disadvantage, since Sableye has a free Prankster turn and can Mega on them.
- If they switch out fearing a burn or having hazards bounced, they failed their job.
- If they stay and attack, Sableye burns them and heals next turn
- If they go for rocks, Sableye is still healthy and either
-- Reflects the rocks onto their side
-- Burns the opposing mon
-- Gets a CM boost

If Sableye is on the opposing team, choosing one of the above leads runs the risk of putting them at a disadvantage against it, since the majority of their options usually end with them crippled or their job unfinished. Meanwhile, the Sableye user likely has other options that work well against either the lead, or the other users attempt to counter-pick Sableye. This isn't necessarily Sableye needing team support, this is Sableye creating more options for its user because prediction favors it against SR users or leads.

And this is on top of offering a Win-Con w/ CM, a decently bulky-if-slow status spreader, a Stallbreaker behind Magic Bounce and/or with Taunt, and utility of at least 1 turn of Prankster before going Mega, even more if he's coming in and out to spread burns first to bolster his Physical Bulk.

 

[napty]

I don't know if you guys have noticed but Sableye is a freaking ghost so it cannot be trapped. That's another + for it.

I wanted to make a team around Mega Gallade but I knew that it would be a dead weight in front of Sableye-based team, so I wanted to use something like Gothitelle to get rid of it and I remember it was a ghost.

The only way to beat Sableye with Gallade is actually to use Skill Swap, bounce the burn, and proceed to a Swords Dance. At this point and thanks to burns damages, Knock Off can 2HKO.

 

[pika pal]

Does Skill Swap work against Magic Bounce?

Logically should. Magic Bounce would reflect it and just treat as if Sableye used Skill Swap instead, which still trades their abilities. Granted, still a very unlikely scenario.

After the number of new offensive threats coming into what was already an offensive Meta, Sableye's position as one of the two backbones of Stall and contributing to its resurging viability constitutes Sableye to A+ at least for me.