Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

Status
Not open for further replies.
Mienshao D --> Unranked

Mienshao has two sets that I know of, LO with Fake out & Regenerator, and Scarf Reckless. I feel both of those are pretty worthless in the metagame. He gets revenged killed by Mega Diancie, Talonflame, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade. Walled by Mega Sableye & Mega Slowbro

It's Fake out LO set is outclassed by Mega Lopunny, who can hit Mega Sableye super effectively and can also Sub + PuP to beat some of it's counters, and also run Ice punch and toxic to beat Slowbro(not that reliable tho) and Landorus-T

Scarf set still isn't very good in the metagame, there are far better momentum grabbers and it really lacks some power.

Thoughs?
 
Mienshao D --> Unranked

Mienshao has two sets that I know of, LO with Fake out & Regenerator, and Scarf Reckless. I feel both of those are pretty worthless in the metagame. He gets revenged killed by Mega Diancie, Talonflame, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade. Walled by Mega Sableye & Mega Slowbro

It's Fake out LO set is outclassed by Mega Lopunny, who can hit Mega Sableye super effectively and can also Sub + PuP to beat some of it's counters, and also run Ice punch and toxic to beat Slowbro(not that reliable tho) and Landorus-T

Scarf set still isn't very good in the metagame, there are far better momentum grabbers and it really lacks some power.

Thoughs?
Well, doing what mega lop does without using a mega slot is what mien has going for itself; it's a bit like amoongus, raikou, or haxo...hax...mold breaker dragon in that it's not quite as good as its mega alternative, but it doesn't use a mega slot, so it can barely carve out a niche.
 
Well, doing what mega lop does without using a mega slot is what mien has going for itself; it's a bit like amoongus, raikou, or haxo...hax...mold breaker dragon in that it's not quite as good as its mega alternative, but it doesn't use a mega slot, so it can barely carve out a niche.
I don't really think it's enough. It's not very useful in the meta, especially when it's role is so well preformed by Lopunny. An Argument can be made for it being D and for it being unranked. I'd put it in unranked, but sure. It's a very unique pokemon. Regenerator + Fake out + U-turn and another hard hitting ability.

I'd love some more discussion around it
 
Mienshao D --> Unranked

Mienshao has two sets that I know of, LO with Fake out & Regenerator, and Scarf Reckless. I feel both of those are pretty worthless in the metagame. He gets revenged killed by Mega Diancie, Talonflame, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade. Walled by Mega Sableye & Mega Slowbro

It's Fake out LO set is outclassed by Mega Lopunny, who can hit Mega Sableye super effectively and can also Sub + PuP to beat some of it's counters, and also run Ice punch and toxic to beat Slowbro(not that reliable tho) and Landorus-T

Scarf set still isn't very good in the metagame, there are far better momentum grabbers and it really lacks some power.

Thoughs?
Regenerator LO was an old set from BW that never really saw use in XY, and Scarf Reckless was generally pretty mediocre for the reasons you described. If we're being fair with it though, LO Mienshao generally runs both HP Ice and U-Turn, so it can beat Landorus-T and doesn't lose momentum against Bro or Sableye.

The only set I used to consider reasonable enough to run in XY OU was CB Reckless, as a Mega Medicham wannabe. Jolly Mienshao's CB HJK is nearly as powerful as Adamant Megacham's, and having Knock Off, U-Turn, and a better speed tier were all reasonable selling points, never mind not using a Mega slot. Given that things like Mega Sableye and Mega Altaria have been added, Mienshao's niche isn't exactly in high demand anymore, so I could see it dropping. On the other hand, having something with immediate power on the scale of Mega Medicham without being Mega Medicham is kinda nice, since you can use it to wallbreak for a cleaning Mega. The lowered usage of Mega Venusaur doesn't hurt, either. Haven't used Mienshao in a while, so I don't think it'd be right for me to disagree with it being moved down, I don't think it needs to be taken off the list altogether.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Ok enormous post and update time so grab a snack. I'll be updating the rankings this time around so here we go. All the changes have been taken into account in the OP but if anything just let me know preferably on my wall and not here and I'll change it as soon as I can.

Rank Placements:

Manaphy: stays in A
Torn-t: stays in A-
Dragonite: stays in B+
Kingdra: stays in B+
Mew: stays in B+
Mega Beedrill: stays in B+
Mega Sceptile: stays in B+
Volcarona: moves up to B+
Togekiss: stays in B
Victini: stays in B
Mega Ampharos: moves down to C-

Mega Lopunny: stays in A+
Thundurus: stays in A+
Charizard-Y: stays in A
Mega Gardevoir: stays in A
Garchomp: stays in A
Mamoswine: stays in A-
Dragalge: moves up to B-
Crawdaunt: moves down to B-
Sylveon: stays in B-
Doublade: moves down to C
Mega Camerupt: moves down to C
Mega Latios: moves down to C

Ok so I'm only going to explain Sylveon in terms of details since it was the more controversial one in regards to the feedback from the thread and everything else is more or less subject to change anyways. Sylveon was agreed upon by the ranking team to stay in B- because its offensive capabilities in regards to its Specs set is vastly exaggerated amongst the community at times. Sylveon is a prediction reliant mon that must not only predict the right coverage move but due to the nature of many balance minded teams, the popular archetype of our meta, teams pack enough tools at their disposable to have breathing room against Specs Sylveon. Specs Sylveon shines against offensive teams with no consistent switch in for the most part, however this is a double edged sword because the loss of bulk in comparison to its previous relevant set, the cleric set, is significant enough to wear Sylveon down and will find very few switch in opportunities coupled in with its low speed against various balanced and offensive cores.

As previously stated we worked on a lower ranking clean up that was done by the ranking team. Various Pokemon were moved around to accommodate meta game trends and to fix some of the very old rankings that simply do not apply anymore. They'll be put in hide tags as to not make the appearance of the post too large.
Absol: stays in C
Mega Aggron: moves down to C-
Alakazam: moves down to C-
Blastoise: stays in C
Ditto: moves down to C-
Entei: stays in C
Glalie Mega: moves down to D
Goodra: stays in C
Gourgeist XL: moves down to C-
Heracross: moves up to C+
Infernape: stays in C
Mienshao: goes unranked
Porygon 2: stays in C
Reuninclus: stays in C
Rotom-H: moves down to D
Sableye: moves down to D
Seismitoad: moves up to C+
Shuckle: stays in C
Slowking: moves up to C+
Thundurus-T: stays in C

Blissey: stays in C-
Cofagrigus: moves down to D
Diance: moves down to D
Dugtrio: stays in C-
Espeon: stays in C-
Exploud: moves down to D
Gourgeist Small: goes Unranked
Haxorus: moves down to D
Lanturn: goes unranked
Ludicolo: moves down to D
Noivern: stays in C-
Pangoro: stays in C-
Smeargle: stays in C-
Tornados: goes unranked
Whimsicott: stays in C-
Zygarde: stays in C-

Arcanine: Goes unranked
Cacturne: Goes unranked
Chandelure: Stays in D
Cloyster: Stays in D
Flygon: Goes unranked
Froslass: stays in D
Gorebyss: stays in D
Meloetta: goes unranked
Salamence: stays in D
Venomoth: goes unranked

Emboar: goes from unranked to D

Next Slate Up For Discussion:

Ok so this slate is gonna have some regular discussion in terms of meta game trends....and some more controversial cases as seen in the first two so please don't go bonkers when you look at them.

Lando-I: from A+ to S
M-Sableye: from S to A+
Raikou: from B+ to A-
Doublade: Doublades placement
Tyrantrum: from unranked to C+
Mienshao: Unranked to D
Starmie: from A- to A
Magnezone: from A- to B+
Hippowdon: from A- to A
Forretress from Unranked to D

Lando-I discussion is stemming from a couple months worth of hints by many top players, months of Lando-I adapting to the meta quite easily, along with its potency in the tier due to the variety of tools it has at its disposable, becoming one of the top tier threats in our meta at this point in time and a force to be reckoned with. These are the ideas established by those who feel it should be S rank, however those who will feel like it's A+ will emphasize its poor immediate match-up against fast paced offense, although Lando-I is known to utilize Rock Polish sets to mitigate this minor problem.

M-Sableye discussion is stemming from the same reasons as Lando-I, however it's on the premise that its effectiveness as a top tier threat has died down due to how the meta has adapted towards it with tools as SD Gliscor, Sub CM Keldeo, Unaware CM Clefable, etc. Is M-Sableyes defensive presence coupled with its utility enough to maintain its S rank position or are the flaws it exhibits apparent enough to where a ranking of A+ is more suitable?

Raikou raising a sub rank stems from discussion from a lot of individuals both here and outside the thread and has been discussed to death honestly but the rise from UU to OU sort of confirmed that it has shown effectiveness in the metagame for more focused discussion, so once again, you guys get to discuss this to death .-. be gentle though.

Doublade dropped a sub rank by virtue of how these rankings work at times however......it's established amongst the community to be a pretty bad Pokemon used to carve out a relatively small niche that has mostly become irrelevant from XY to ORAS. So this is on the chopping block for going unranked or w/e rank is found to be suitable based on good arguments that applies to its realistic practical use along with its defensive utility in comparison to other ranked Pokemon who serve defensive roles.

Tyrantrum we're going ahead to put a ranking on this, as soon it'll hold some relevancy in the tier anyways based off of its Band and Dragon Dance sets primarily. C+ was there as a starting point provided by the ranking team but if something lower is much more suitable feel free to elaborate why.

Mienshao was just unranked for the time being however I promised to give ben gay the benefit of the doubt that it's more along the lines of D rank, as it can realistically be used efficiently with various utility moves that can be utilized effectively as a stand alone Pokemon or part of a Volt-Turn core, think Raikou and Lando-T. So for those that have actually used it feel free to discuss it. For those that haven't keep an open mind and stop theorymonning and use it to give yourself an idea.

Reasoning for Magnezone can be found in this post. Starmie and Hippowdon rises come from the consistency of their use in the tier as they are part of many strong foundations seen on a variety of builds. If you've been watching SPL or just have seen and used these effectively you'll get the idea so some discussion on this.

Let's get something straight before you guys discuss this. Forretress is being open for discussion based on its Custap set. Not its defense stat, not some weird set you saw in UU low ladder and thought "wow this is the future of competitive pokemon, Counter Sturdy for Flare Blitz Darmanitan!!", its custap variants is what is being discussed. We know it's outclassed by Skarmory in some aspects, don't state the obvious. This post by TFL sums it up pretty well from earlier so feel free to discuss this.

You're free to discuss whatever as well but do realize this is a lot of stuff and some things we'll be looking at more heavily in terms of discussion over others who already have a solidified ranking.
 
Last edited:
just thought i'd offer some thoughtprocess on some of the rankings:

Manaphy stays A: still a great wall/stallbreaker than people actually give it credit for. while stall hasn't really been prevalent in tour play as of late, it is still a very viable playstyle that should definitely be prepared for. manaphy can also threaten most balanced builds as well which is definitely nice.
Tornadus-T stays A-: rise from B+ to A- should have been more than enough as far as torn-t is concerned. A is too much of a stretch despite a recent surge in tour use. life orb set is pretty good and underrated though :o.
Dragonite stays B+: cbnite is still a great wall breaker and priority espeed to boot, nothing else stands out that prompts a rise or drop from the looks of it.
Kingdra stays B+: i would say kingdra is the most consistent swift swimmer, but that's not to say that is objectively better than the other three. also ranking it along with politoed isn't practical since toed is what defines rain offense, not kingdra lol.
Mew from stays B+: usage stems from defensive, supportive and lure capabilities, not offensive roles such as sd or np. mew is a jack of all trades, master of none. nothing really screams A- to me about it honestly. another interesting way to look at it is comparing it to jirachi who is currently residing in A-. jirachi is something you can slap on a team more easier to cover up weaknesses, is arguably more consistent as far as team role goes and has utility in its own right. i think ranking mew one subrank below it based on consistency is a fair assessment.
Mega Beedrill stays B+: to be frank, i think the people who advocated for this to drop either haven't used this correctly, or at all even. beedrill is a huge momentum grabber being able to scout with protect and uturn, as well as having a massive offensive presence(speed and attack/ability). based off that alone is what makes it viable in ou in the first place. it's not meant to switch in directly or be pitted against the stuff that checks/counters it. also with minimal defense investment, beedrill has enough bulk to live most strong priority attacks as well which is really the only hits it should be worried about taking anyway.
Mega Sceptile stays B+: the reasons you guys said were reason enough to warrant a drop from A- to B+, not B+ to B lol. having it one sub-rank above serperior is a precedent we already set in place. also outspeeding most of the relevant meta and 2hkoing nearly every threat is not a B rank mon in my opinion.
Volcarona from B ---> B+: already said my rant about it before and still stand by it. i'll just repost what i said in case trc decides to show "ranking thoughts by ben gay c:>" again. "looks more at home in B+ than B tho :<. it just invalidates balance and bulky offense builds alike. only real counters are like perish/roar altaria, chansey, rare dnite, and defensivegyara(ppl still run this?). talon and azu can threaten to check and rocks are a prob but is definitely manageable with a bit of team support. its pros without a doubt outweigh its cons and volc really does excels in this meta."
Togekiss stays B: nasty plot set alone is what i think is deserving of its placement. can run lum>lefties if you want coverage and can't afford to run heal bell to stallbreak. has great support options, though none are particularly notable in actual practice. nice defensive typing as well, overall a solid mon but not one deserving of B+.
Victini stays B: only good sets that stand out atm are band, scarfed, and mixed. tini was a pretty hyped mon late xy for being able to check 3 threatening megas in gard, cham, and hera but with their viability going down, shouldn't be suprising that tini's should as well. current sets don't live up to what tini once was, hence it should be staying B.
Mega Ampharos from C+ ---> C-: agility set is outpaced by any relevant scarfer, meta is too fast paced for it, etc. tankset doesn't function nearly as effectively since the things it checks/walls were more prevalent in xy than oras. isn't even on par with bronzong or gastro in terms of overall utility, idk why people are pushing for it to stay or move up.
Slowking from C ---> B-: this can go from either C+ or B- really. it depends on how those two ranks will ultimately turn out, since slowking is par on some of the mons from both ranks. recent spike in viability stems from beating keldeo+metagross offensive cores, underrated special bulk over slowbro, and offensive utility provided by av set.
Mienshao from C ---> Unrank: someone can argue it to go to D, but general consensus atm is that shao is completely and utterly outclassed by lopunny, so no niche for it in ou :x.
 
in addition to the above posts, the viability rankings will be shifting to update now more frequently, and with smaller updates, with larger topics leaving to be discussed slightly longer. at the moment, there is the problem of discussion going in circles, and bleh ill stop sugar-coating it: it's terrible. hopefully more frequent updates and a more active role by me as i've been super busy lately will help discussion to be more focused. am has been doing a fantastic job though so hats off to him. we will also be alternating update posts :toast: i guess that means he co-runs the thread :v4:
 
I definitely support Hippo to A
Its an extremely useful mons for balanced builds right now, which is good considering its the most popular play-style in this meta.
The best thing about Hippo is the amount of damn stuff it checks. Basically, depending on Hippos Moveset, it beats nearly every single physical mon 1v1 that doesn't have a SE STAB move against it. Now obviously there are exceptions to this statement (its not THAT good lol) but its mostly true. The first three moves are mandatory, EQ, SR and slack off, but the last slot is either whirlwind/ice fang/stone edge/toxic, and I'm sure there are some other options too. Now, as I'm sure all of you are thinking, this does result in a degree of 4MSS, but Hippo is one of those mons that just does whatever its team needs, whirlwind to phaze sweepers/rack up hazard damage, ice fang to lure both lando forms, stone edge to be a fantastic bird spam check, and toxic to weaken rotoms and landos and the like.

Hippo also happens to beat every electric type apart from Rotom-W and GK Thundy-I/T (Gk is a legit choice in this meta), which is fantastic for balanced teams, as Volt-Turn is a very annoying thing for balance to deal with, as you are unable to gain momentum without risky plays/sacking something and you're getting constantly worn down. Hippo Prevents this from happening, while also setting up SR to wear the Volt-Turners down, which is a very handy trait for mon like hippo to have.

Now at this point, the comparisons to bulky Lando-T are obvious, but Hippo has some traits that make it a prime choice over lando.
1. Reliable recovery
Need I say how huge this is? This just mkaes hippo that much harder to wear down, making it easier to wall heaps of stuff.
2. No 4x weakness to ice (and no 4x weaknesses in general)
This one is also really big, as it means you cant be bopped by common coverage on electric types and means you cant be lured as easily as lando.
3. Ability to take on Bisharp
Now this one is HUGE, and is what makes Hippo so good in the first place. Bisharp is such a threat at the moment (and always will be tbh), and lando losing to it makes it that much more of a squeeze on team-building, as having you're main physical wall lose to one of the meta's best special attackers is quite a flaw to lando.
4. Resistance to SR
While 6% may not seem like that much, it builds up very quickly over time. Hippo being resistant means that SR damage is negated with lefties, which means it is much harder to be worn down by constant switching, reliable recovery helps this too.
and 5. Ability to summon sand
While seemingly not as important as the others, setting sand makes it easier to wear the opposing team down over time, as well as fuelling up the massive threat in excadrill, who is very potent right now.

Now Lando obviously has strong points over Hippo, such as ground immunity, more speed, fighting resist and more offensive pressure, but Hippo brings many traits that are very important to balance teams, and makes it a very top choice in the current meta. (it also allows you to use lando-I :D, wh is super good rn)

Now while Hippo is massive bait to big threats like Lando-I (without ice fang), keldeo and gengar, you have 5 more slots to negate these threats! And a physical wall is not usually supposed to be able to handle every special attacker ever either.

So TL;DR
Hippo to A because of its amazing bulk, great typing, reliable recovery and its ability to fit in very easily on balanced teams, who are super good right now.

So yeah, Hippo to A
 
Nominating Victini from B to B+/A-

Victini is a very underrated and underused pokemon, but as we all know, usage does not equal viability. I am nominating victini for A- for its choice band set, which is actually quite a similar pokemon to Charizard Y, but even more powerful.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 367-433 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

While it does have some downsides, namely being forced out after a v-create and being choice locked, it also does not have a 4x stealth rock weakness, has u-turn, and has better bulk and an arguably better typing, as it is able to check Mega Metagross, the biggest threat in the meta rn. Unlike Charizard Y, Victini also needs pretty much no support at all to destroy stall, other than needing to predict maybe once on their water type switch-in.
The best set is V-Create | Bolt Strike | U-turn | Energy Ball, leaving it with pretty much just charizard x as counters. (Energy ball may seem strange on a band set, but it nails some semi-uncommon pokemon that would otherwise hard wall it, such as m-swampert, rhyperior, quagsire and gastrodon, and it doesn't really need a 4th move.) Victini is able to switch into or check a number of pokemon, in particular M-Metagross, as well as pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Clefable, Scizor and Venusaur. It can then fire off a v-create or appropriate coverage move on the switch. It can also check Mega Sableye and in general destroys the types of archetypes that sableye is on. For example:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 303-357 (86 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye: 303-357 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 237-279 (56.4 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 332-392 (92.9 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 486-573 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 728-860 (180.1 - 212.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Victini is one of the best hole punchers in the game and can very effectively destroy stall and tear holes in more balanced teams too. Against offense, it serves as a good check to what is currently the best offensive pokemon in the game, Mega Metagross, getting kills pretty much every time it comes in. It also has excellent bulk that allows it to tank hits from the likes of latios if it wants to. The ease of which victini can kill things combined with a good typing and bulk should push victini up to a B+ or A- rank imo.
 

MrAldo

Hey
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hippowdon definitely should rise to A. This thing is crazy good, having reliable recovery in the form of slack off, a pretty reliable rock setter and having the possibility of handling a good amount of physical threats like mega charizard X, talonflame and mega lopunny and some electric types like mega manectric, thundurus and raikou, all in one single teamslot, is simply fantastic. A really damn good poke at the moment with how much it does by itself and a staple on balanced teams at the moment. Certainly a mon that can be paired with the likes of ferrothorn. Being able to stomach bisharp and down right kill it is pretty huge as well. A rank.

I feel starmie deserves A rank as well. Pretty amazing mon and easily the best spinner the metagame has to offer. Pretty consistent keldeo check thanks to it having recover and natural cure to heal those status after switching out, considering how good sub cm keldeo having a good check to it is pretty huge and starmie achieves just that with one of its sets. The offensive analytic set is pretty much impossible to spinblock cause every relevant ghost fear switching into an analytic boosted hydro pump (something like sableye) and mons like gengar dies to psyshock, it also hits surprisingly hard and thanks to its coverage it can hit plenty of targets significantly hard on a switch. Pretty cool mon that offers a fantastic spinner for offense and balanced teams. Reflect type is kind of difficult to pull off at the moment but it is pretty cool if you a secondary sub cm keld, avoiding pursuit traps is nice. A rank.

Will discuss other mons later on.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I've used Rocky Head Tyrantrum quite a bit and it feels more like a B- rank to me, but C+ seems like a pretty good place to start. The Choice Band set is a pretty good wallbreaker/nuke who is able to take advantage of Talonflame, a big threat to a lot of teams, and is very difficult to switch into. Just to give you an example :

252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is the most physically bulky Pokemon in that game in terms of raw stats, besides Aggron and Steelix who are never seen in OU. And keep in mind that Mega Slowbro doesn't usually run that much defense. Needless to say, everything which doesn't resist Rock is 2HKOed by Head Smash. If you account for its coverage (Head Smash, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Fang / Superpower will probably end up being standard), its counters are limited to Hippowdon, Chensaught, and Mega Aggron and Steelix (lol) The things which switch into Head Smash tend to be auite easy to take advantage of too, this means that Tyrantrum

Obviously it has some pretty glaring flaws, it has a hard time switching in on anything due to its large number of weaknesses and pretty much requires pivot support in order to do its job, not to mention that Head Smash's accuracy is pretty infuriating at times. Its bulk, while good, isn't really enough to compensate for its typing. Ferrothorn is pretty common and while it gets steamrolled by Superpower and Fire Fang, it prevents Tyrantrum from mindlessly spamming Head Smash which is all it ever wants to do. Most notably, it has some pretty big competition with Tyranitar as a banded wallbreaker, since it has higher bulk on both sides of the spectrum and access to Pursuit which enables it to double up as a trapper. However, Tyrantrum has a few advantages over TTar. Obviously, it hits way, way harder as mentioned above. It also has access to Outrage, which is pretty big since that means it's not a free switchin to every single fighting type, notably Keldeo who shrugs off anything TTar throws at it, but is OHKOed by Outrage after Rocks. Outrage also has a chance to 2HKO Hippowdon depending on defense investement, does a number on Chesnaught. Finally, there's the extra speed, which seems minor but is actually a huge deal since it enables Tyrantrum to outspeed base 70s, specifically Bisharp who can just smack TTar with Iron Head, as well as Pokemon taht specifically speed creep Jolly Bisahrp like Celebi and Landorus-T. You also outspeed stuff like Adamant Gyarados, Modest Gardevoir-pre mega, that kind of stuff. While Tyrantrum's Choice Band set is basically useless vs offense outside of checking Talonflame, it excels vs slower teams which will have to take a hit from it at one point.

The Choice Scarf set is also viable. Once again, it suffers a lot competition from TTar, but it's actually able to, thanks to its greater speed, outpace Tornadus-T which is a pretty big threat Scarf TTar fails to check. Also, higher power on your main STAB can never hurt. I would not bother with DD at all, not only does Tyrantrum have a very hard time setting up, Head Smash's bad accuracy makes it a unreliable move for sweeping. Just stick with the choiced sets for this thing. As far as I can tell it isn’t the kind of Pokemon you really build around. If you need it for any reason, it’s there, and it does its job pretty well.

Concerning other Pokemon :

Hippowdon is just really good rn, I don't think it's much of a stretch to consider it as on par with Celebi or even Slowbro. What it loses out on in terms of momentum, it makes up for in just the sheer amount of stuff it handles. IMO the best set right now it the physically defensive one, it's a fantastic answer to Lopunny, Landorus-T and Talonflame, it can also handle huge threats such as Bisharp, Pinsir and XZard, and it's just obscenely physically bulky in general. But the SpD set is also very solid, it handles Thundurus, Gengar, Diancie, YZard (kinda). Its great bulk make it a fantastic rock setter because it pretty much doesn't die from any single hit and forces out a lot of stuff. Hippowdon is just really easy to fit on teams just because of the large amount of things it handles. There are so many teams where I think "I need something to beat this this and this and set up rocks" and very often, Hippowdon fits the bill perfectly, so from a teambuilding perspective it's definitely worthy of A, though due its status as a momentum-killer this may not translate too well in-battle.

On the other hand, I don't think Starmie should move up to A. Obviously, if there's one set which is A worthy it's the bulky spinner set, and though that set is definitely good, it does suffer from a few problems. The first one is 4MSS. Before, Starmie could easily get away with Rapid Spin / Recover / Scald / Reflect Type. But now, a lot of Starmie have started to run Psyshock for sub CM Keldeo which has become really popular. This means Starmie loses Reflect Type, which prevents it from handling Ferrothorn an turns it into Bisharp fodder. Then there's the fact that it's setup fodder for the likes of MGyarados, XZard, MAltaria, Serperior, Sableye (which spinblocks it), Celebi, MSlowbro, Manaphy, and CM Latios whcih means it actually needs a good amount of team support if it doesn't want to get blown in half. Add to that the fact that it suffers competition from Tentacruel (who can actually beat Sableye) and that Pursuit TTar, a very popular Pokemon on balance, flat-out removes it, and I can't see it moving up.

Sableye drop, like the Hippowdon rise, is something I've been thinking of for a while now. I think the Sableye hype is pretty much over it this point, and now that people have adapted to it, Sableye isn't as amazing as we thought it was. Pretty much every team has something that can break it at this point, and it's not like these Pokemon are necessarily bad or easy to take advantage of. Gliscor is an excellent Pokemon which beats Sableye. Same for Manaphy, Clefable, Sub CM Keldeo, SD/BU Talonflame, Landorus for the most part... And that's not even going into all the megas that beat it without even thinking. Now obviously, just because a lot of stuff beats Sableye doesn't mean its bad at its job : it's still an outstanding hazard preventer. However, it forces a certain type of build on the user. Sableye is absolutely not a Pokemon you can just slap on a team that's weak to rocks and call it a day. It's very difficult to use successfully without specifically building round it, because by using it, you leave yourself open to so much dangerous stuff that you have to compensate for it in 2-3 teamslots. And honestly, I don't really think a Pokemon which constrains your teambuilding this much can be S rank.

Support a Magnezone drop, it's a nice trapper and offensive fairy check but it's just so often a liability it's not even funny. Half the time you can't even trap what you want to because then XZard just sets up in your face. And then there's the fact hat a lot of Ferrothorns run Shed Shell now, so you kinda need to pair it up with Knock Off Azumarill or Lando-T for it to be reliable, But mostly the reason I feel it should drop is because it's so easy to just turn the tables on it.

Finally, any reason Serperior didn't rise? There was a bunch of discussion on it and I don't remember anyone being opposed to it.
 
Last edited:

shartruce

Chartreuse Charmanders/ US WEST 2015!
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
don't post here very often but I read this thread a lot so I'll put my 2 cents

Landorus-I: This thing is a total monster, as it can easily adapt to the metagame, as now I see a lot of them running HP Ice to combat the popular Special Defensive Gliscor, who was at a time a good stop to Lando, but now isn't reliable to stop it now. Even Chansey, the blanket special wall of the tier has to fear Knock Off + Focus Blast, which doesn't even make Chansey quite a reliable stop, still decent though. While Lando does have a slight 4MSS in Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Sludge Wave, Psychic, and Rock Polish, it can pick and choose its own counters, and sometimes you won't know if it has a certain coverage move for your lando counter until it's too late. While it does have a few good counters in Latias, Mandibuzz, AV Tornadus-T, and Blissey, he can still knock off their item which will give its teammates more support to help break through them. While it is a bit slow which doesn't help vs offense, Rock Polish lets it destroy offensive teams and can even afford to run a Modest Nature, and while it'll lack a coverage move it may need for more defensive teams, it has 5 other teammates to help with that. So I feel its threat vs defensive teams, being able to support its team by knocking off defensive counters, and having the option to beat offensive teams with rock polish makes it an S level threat. S rank

Mega Sableye: After experience playing with this mon, I wasn't very pleased with its performance, because a lot of teams are prepared for it. Clefable, Swords Dance Sp Def Gliscor, SD spdef talonflame are very common right now, and basically any Fairy checks it. Spdef heatran, while can't beat sable outright, can just wear it down with lava plume spam and getting the burn will wear Sableye down a lot, as a +1 sable can only do about 20% to spdef heatran, so while sable keeps boosting, heatran will continue spamming until it gets a burn, which isn't very difficult, and then switch on a predicted recover to a hard hitter. While it does provide fantastic support for stall and semistall teams, and controls the metagame to an extent, it isn't very hard to beat because most teams either have the aforementioned pokes, a fairy, or an offensive enough team that won't allow it to set up too many boosts to be out of control. It's utility set with knock off is pretty cool though, but is A+ rank because the meta is prepared for it now.

Hippowdon: I support it moving up, been using it for a while and it's been a pretty good blanket physical wall, checking big threats like Mega Charizard X, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Mega Manectric, Bisharp, etc. Has reliable recovery, and is a pretty reliable SR setter, and provides sand if you need to cancel rain/ provide sand for Exca. Providing that much support while warding off boosted physical attackers make me feel a boost to A rank is needed.

I feel Forretress can move to D, I remember running its custap set last gen and it was pretty decent, although it's job is a lot harder now with 2 Mega Magic bouncers and Defog, it can use gyro ball for Mega Diancie and can explode on defoggers if in Custap range, I think a raise to D isn't too much to ask because it is a pretty good niche being able to lead with SR and spikes, with a Custap Explosion.

Doublade can move down to C, I used him for a little bit and he didn't do a whole lot, what he can take on is not a whole lot, Mega Gard, Mega Meta, Mega Altaria, Mega Hera, Terrak, Mega Pinsir w/o EQ, , and that's about it that is noteworthy. And only the former three are really relevant in the meta, and boosted Altaria EQs can hurt it and it needs shadow claw to actually win against meta, and relying on rest talk as recovery is kind of meh for a defensive mon, especially without leftovers. A lot of my games it didn't do anything besides getting sacced and maybe getting a toxic off, because it loses to a lot of the meta right now. Not as good as it was in XY when the 3 stallbreaking megas were a lot more common than now. Move down to C please.

All the other mons I don't know too much about, these are the ones I have the most experience in
 
Any reason Smeargle + Espeon didn't drop, it seemed to me was the general consencus was it wasn't worthy of C-, as they only have Geopass, which isn't a niche worthy of higher than D.
 
Mega Tyranitar for C-

Controvesial Nomination I know but I'm confused why mega ttar is B-. For one there's it huge ass opprotunity cost which means if you use it you can't use another mega. The second problem is even at +1 it's pretty easy to revenge kill as even with jolly mega lopunny barely outspeeds it and it's weakness to bullet punch mach punch and aqua jet isn't helping it. Finally the increased bulk and speed doesn't make up for the loss of smooth rock for sand rush excadrill. It's dragon dance set is the only thing it can do better then normal ttar but there are plenty of viable dragon dancers like mega alt zard x even haxorus and zygarde are better dragon dancers then it.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Lando-I: from A+ to S
Agree with this one, it's probably the most threatening pokemon in OU right now, sure its speed tier isn't great, but that doesn't matter when you've got Rock Polish and an unpredictable special movepool and even options like CM or Knock Off which even breaks Chansey, it's just such a powerful wallbreaker with almost no switchins
M-Sableye: from S to A+
I'm not sure on this one, but I'm leaning towards a drop, definitely agreeing with a drop if Mega Metagross goes though.
Raikou: from B+ to A-
Don't know, haven't used it at all
Doublade: Doublades placement
It should either stay or drop, nothing has happened to it that it should be considered for a rise
Tyrantrum: from unranked to C+
Sure, I've seen it being used and it's just a nuke, C+ is definitely a good starting rank for it
Mienshao: Unranked to D
I thought it was C rank before? Oh well, Regenerator + U-Turn is a pretty neat niche, aswell as resisting SR and a decent speed tier and having Reckless to nuke everything that doesn't resist HJK
Starmie: from A- to A
Starmie is pretty good right now, it's got a great defensive set which has only gotten better with the lower usage of MSableye and it's pretty much the go-to fast water type after Keldeo
Magnezone: from A- to B+
Not sure about this one either
Hippowdon: from A- to A
Hippo is really good right now, being able to wall most physical attackers in the tier, has mixed or sdef options, all while providing SR support and being a Sand setter that isn't weak to Fighting or Ground
Forretress from Unranked to D
Custap gives it some viability and brings back one of its older GenV sets, D rank would be fine

tl;dr
Lando-I: from A+ to S - Agree
M-Sableye: from S to A+ - Agree
Raikou: from B+ to A- - Unsure
Doublade: Doublades placement - Stay or Drop
Tyrantrum: from unranked to C+ - Agree
Mienshao: Unranked to D - Agree
Starmie: from A- to A - Agree
Magnezone: from A- to B+ - Unsure
Hippowdon: from A- to A - Agree
Forretress from Unranked to D - Agree
 
Mega Tyranitar for C-

Controvesial Nomination I know but I'm confused why mega ttar is B-. For one there's it huge ass opprotunity cost which means if you use it you can't use another mega. The second problem is even at +1 it's pretty easy to revenge kill as even with jolly mega lopunny barely outspeeds it and it's weakness to bullet punch mach punch and aqua jet isn't helping it. Finally the increased bulk and speed doesn't make up for the loss of smooth rock for sand rush excadrill. It's dragon dance set is the only thing it can do better then normal ttar but there are plenty of viable dragon dancers like mega alt zard x even haxorus and zygarde are better dragon dancers then it.
I concur.

The problem is indeed that Mega Tyranitar faces massive opportunity cost as a Mega - it's inherently an excellent Pokémon, it's just that the metagame and the new additions to ORAS have been unkind to it. Mega Tyranitar has a great 164 Attack stat that can definitely tear things up at +1 with its powerful STABs Stone Edge and Crunch, while its 71 Speed is barely enough to outpace the base 130 crowd. Yes, it misses out on the 135 group, but that's why you pair it up with a revenge killer like Talonflame or Scarf Lando-T. It is easily the bulkiest Dragon Dancer in the tier with its 100/150/120 defenses, the latter of which is bolstered by Sandstorm. It has seven weaknesses and is achingly weak to Fighting, but a double weakness doesn't instantly stop a Pokémon from doing what it needs to do.
About Sandstorm: Mega Tyranitar uses the Sandstorm for itself, to ease setting up on special attackers. It doesn't whip up the Sandstorm to support its team, but purely for its own comfort of boosting. The Armor Pokémon can go for an Adamant Rock Polish set that actually does outpace the threats you mentioned and its coverage is adaptable enough for it to hit what it needs to hit. The RP set may not hit as hard as a DD set, but you can afford to sacrifice EVs in Speed and add those up to any defensive stat to tank hits better and set up with greater ease, depending on what you want you need it to outspeed.

What, Zygarde and Haxorus outperform it as a DDer? Zygarde's main niche is Coil (which it does much better than DD) and Haxorus can barely get a DD in with its mediocre bulk. You're better off using Haxorus with Swords Dance, making it a devastating wallbreaker. But I digress. Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria are arguably superior DDers, but Mega Tyranitar definitely has its uses.

Bottom line, Mega Tyranitar is a really solid Pokémon that is greatly plagued by competition for the Mega Slot in the current era. Keep it in B-.

Also, for the love of Mega Metagross, use punctuation in your posts. They're painful to read.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
On the Hippo train of course. And Lando-I. I mentioned a possible Sableye drop in the PS OU room as well (I think last week) although some people didn't agree with me. The rising popularity of bulky offense and balance over hyper offense means a lot more room for wallbreakers and such that have few problems with Sableye. On board with this one as well.

The nomination I find interesting is Starmie from A- to A. This is a strange case because it's hard not to compare it to the Latis. It shares a lot of attributes with them, such as speed (although its faster), a pursuit weakness and being a pretty reliable Keldeo check. On the flip side, hazards rack up damage on it more easily which isn't great for a hazard remover, and its bulk isn't as good. However, Rapid Spin does have fewer drawbacks than Defog in general and the difference in speed tier is actually pretty important. IMO, Starmie is a true borderline case that looks better than most of (if not all, minus Hippowdon) A-, but worst than most (yet again, if not all) of A rank.
 
This may be a bit biased because he is my favourite Pokemon, but I think that Serperior deserves to be moved up to B rank at least. Sure, we all know that he has a crappy typing and shallow offensive movepool, but he can be very difficult for teams to deal with in the late game when his checks and counters have been removed, particularly stall teams because Serperior can beat things like Unaware Clefable 1v1 with the help of a Life Orb. His bulk is fairly decent and sits above the base 110s and Thundurus, allowing him to handle Mega Diancie and the Latis. I know that being in this speed tier is not as important as it was at the beginning of ORAS but it is still nice to have. I know that it sounds like I am overselling the smug snake but to be honest his flaws are pretty obvious. I'm not trying to send it up to A+ or anything but I think that B- is slightly underselling him.
 
It's not on the update list but here goes. I think Pangoro should rise up to C or C+. It's not the fastest thing in the world, and its defensive typing isn't great (but outside of the huge Fairy weakness not too shabby). I think people aren't noticing how much better it got with tutors. The impact is noticeable if you look at how much it has wrecked house in the lower tiers in the past few months. Not that lower tiers correlate to OU viability much at all, but more a certification of how much of a boon the combination of STAB Drain Punch, STAB Knock Off and Gunk Shot is to something with its offensive stats and access to Swords Dance. It also has a fair amount of bulk backing it up, and is just fast enough to wallbreak effectively. It does have drawbacks, namely finding a window to set-up and having less use against offensive teams. However a strong SD breaker is not the easiest thing to find, especially when some of the best (Gallade, M-Scizor, M-Heracross, Pinsir) use up the Mega slot. Having Drain Punch as its Fighting STAB also gives it some real sustainability and mitigates Life Orb damage well enough. Scrappy also helps against Mega Eye stall, and not many Fighting types thrive against those types of teams (see Terrakion and Mega Gallade). I would personally put it around C+ but a small rise to C should happen at the very least.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
On the other hand, I don't think Starmie should move up to A. Obviously, if there's one set which is A worthy it's the bulky spinner set, and though that set is definitely good, it does suffer from a few problems. The first one is 4MSS. Before, Starmie could easily get away with Rapid Spin / Recover / Scald / Reflect Type. But now, a lot of Starmie have started to run Psyshock for sub CM Keldeo which has become really popular. This means Starmie loses Reflect Type, which prevents it from handling Ferrothorn an turns it into Bisharp fodder. Then there's the fact that it's setup fodder for the likes of MGyarados, XZard, MAltaria, Serperior, Sableye (which spinblocks it), Celebi, MSlowbro, Manaphy, and CM Latios whcih means it actually needs a good amount of team support if it doesn't want to get blown in half. Add to that the fact that it suffers competition from Tentacruel (who can actually beat Sableye) and that Pursuit TTar, a very popular Pokemon on balance, flat-out removes it, and I can't see it moving up.

Finally, any reason Serperior didn't rise? There was a bunch of discussion on it and I don't remember anyone being opposed to it.
A lot of these problems that Starmie has is covered by its offensive set because most of the bulky waters don't like taking Thunderbolt what so ever, which actually covers a lot of ground, then you have Ice Beam which makes many of these Grass and Dragon switch ins a liability to begin with, with the exception of Ferrothorn who hates HP Fire. It's on the grounds that both its offensive and defensive set is good, which they are. It really doesn't have competition from Tentacruel when the two serve a couple of different roles and Sableye + Tyranitar will never want to switch into Scalds in the fear of burns of Analytic boosted Hydro Pumps.

Serperior falls under stuff you're allowed to talk about and was going to be on next slate discussion but list was actually getting huge so we took it off. Doesn't really the change the fact you're free to bring it up.

May I ask some reasoning as to why Mega Glalie was dropped? Nothing much changed for it and it didn't really have much discussing. Not really objecting to the move down, but I'm just curious is all.
M-Glalie dropped because to be quite frank, it's garbage. You have something that is a mega, SR weak, a terrible defensive typing, that has such a lack of longevity that normally it'll be gone in a matter of a few turns and in comparison to all the other megas its traits are not as beneficial and efficient. This fell under the category of stuff that needed a rank change for a long time but never happened and it was agreed upon to drop to D.
 
Ok, don't get me wrong, I love Forretress. It is one of my favorite pokemon and I used it all the time in generation 5. However, in generation 6, it is absolutely awful. Believe me, I've tried. To keep my arguments organized there is a list below.

1.) It can't do anything offensively. All Forretress can do is gyro ball an volt switch, as well as random payback or something. Considering gyro ball the only real attacking option, take into account it will pretty much only be dangerous to fairy types, gengar, and hasty latios. Its gyro balls are weaker than ferrothorn, and it has no other moves. Ferrothorn can strike down gyarados or keldeo with a power whip. Also, it has access the coveted knock off, which is both a good attacking move and an excellent support move simultaneously. Forretress missing out on these moves puts its offensive capabilities lower than Skarmory. This all leads to the king of setup fodder.

2.) No credible resistances. What are the biggest most scary attacking types? Well, I would say flying, ground, water, and fire are the most common. Of course you get stuff like fairy and whatnot, but I think these are the most common. Skarmory resists the first two and forms a formidable mega pinsir check, as well as a Landorus-T counter. Ferrothorn resists water and a bunch of other stuff which allows it to come in on Azumarill. Admittedly, forretress shares the same dragon + fairy resistances, but it is OHKOed instead of just seriously injured by a stray HP fire and takes much much more from Diancie's other moves, etc. One semi niche is that it can check metagross without hp fire... but it doesn't do much else.

3.) No reliable recovery + knock off. Forretress has no reliable recovery, so it needs those leftovers. With ferrothorn, who it should be beating, knocking off and wearing down forretress with iron barbs and leech seed, forretress can't do much. The same goes for Bisharp who will beat non EQ forretress with ease because of knock off. Being susceptible to stealth rock and spikes forretress will get worn down and because of his speed he will often die before spinning.

4.) Rapid spin is not coveted. Defog exists and rapid spin is much less needed, or even desired. There are lots of defoggers, not to mention excadrill who can actually do things offensively so forretress is really not all that special anymore. Also, starmie is way better because it checks metagross and keldeo, as well as having scald to be annoying.

List of things forretress is fodder for:
  • Scizor-Mega
  • Keldeo
  • Sableye
  • Charizard-X
  • Charizard-Y
  • Clefable
  • Gyarados
  • Gliscor
  • Thundurus
  • Talonflame
  • Pinsir
  • Slowbro-Mega
  • fuck it there's too many (this stops around a in viability ranks)
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
Lando-I: from A+ to S: Agreeing. Its kinda like a slower Greninja in that its "counters" are decided on what moveset it's running, and it would probably even be bannable if Keldeo and Azumarill weren't on every other team.

M-Sableye: from S to A+: Agreeing. It's kinda overhyped tbh. While you have to consider it while teambuilding, it's not overly hard to beat if you prepare properly. It's more of a nuisance than anything.

Raikou: from B+ to A-: Agreeing. Raikou's extra bulk and lack of SR weakness gives it an edge over Thundurus, and its sub CM set can be surprisingly hard to beat.

Doublade: Doublades placement: D rank. Its only use is on stall, and generally, modern stall doesn't have the teamslot for it, since they tend to run Bronzong/Jirachi due to their ability to beat Mega Diancie. Its only real remaining niche is to beat Mega Heracross on stall teams.

Tyrantrum: from unranked to C+: Agreeing. The thing can 2HKO bulky Lando-T with a neutral move, and can even OHKO the scarf set after rocks. In other words...

Mienshao: Unranked to D: Agreeing. I actually have a team with this, its HJK hits ridiculously hard (capable of 2HKOing Skarm after rocks on the LO Regen set), and Regenerator + U-turn gives it the niche of hard-hitting Fighting type on Voltturn.

Starmie: from A- to A: Agreeing. Its typing is usually beneficial unlike most defoggers/spinners, making it pretty easy to fit on teams, and the offensive LO sets are pretty damn hard to switch in to since nobody's running Chansey these days (thanks Gothiwhore)

Magnezone: from A- to B+: Disagreeing. It's probably the only trapper that isn't a waste of a teamslot defensively, as its typing is actually pretty solid despite being 4x weak to EQ. Not to mention the fact that Ferro's in top 5 usage atm, which opens up a ton of possibilities (Mag + Gyara is frightening).

Hippowdon: from A- to A: Unsure. Sand Stream is a great ability and its defenses are outstanding, but it's pretty passive which is annoying. It does counter a ton of physical attackers, so this can kinda go either way.

Forretress from Unranked to D: Agreeing. Custap hazards is kinda gimmicky, but it's not a terrible option for HO teams, just as long as you have a heavy-hitting mon that murders MSable (MGarde, special MAltaria, Specs Keldeo, etc).
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
The reason Forretress was discussed from Unranked -> D was because Custap Berry was released and because of Sturdy he can either lay rock + defogblock with Explosion, lay rocks + spikes or even lay more hazards if the opponent decides to switch out. The set is pretty similar to Skarmory's Custap set but it has a few niches over it being Rapid Spin and the higher damage output of Explosion vs Skarmory's Brave Bird. I think D is a respectable rank for Forretress.
 
Nice to see all the terrible stuff from the lower ranks removed (though I must question why Espeon is still ranked), anyway, here is my opinion on the possible changes:

Landorus-I from A+ to S - Not Sure
Mega Sableye from S to A+ - Disagree
Raikou from B+ to A- - Agree
Doublades Placement - C or C-
Tyrantrum from unranked to C+ - Agree
Mienshao from Unranked to D - Disagree
Starmie from A- to A - Agree
Magnezone from A- to B+ - Not Sure
Hippowdon from A- to A - Agree
Forretress from Unranked to D - Sure I guess... (Don't expect me to talk about this)

I'm on the fence with landorus. I know it's really powerful, a big threat to stall, can clean with rock polish bla bla bla. However, as an avid Landorus-I user (to hell with landorus T), I can honestly say that I'm not sure it fits the S rank criteria. The speed creep has sort of caught up with it, and stall while good, is not particularly common, at least in my experiences. However, it still is a really great, mon, has a lot of veristility, and is certainly something that may have what it takes to be an S rank threat.

Mega Sableye should not drop becuase, despite being checked quite easily, is very threating to teams that are not prepared for it. Magic bounce is flat out amazing, and it allows Sableye to block hazards, bounce back status, and not be taunt fodder, unlike some of the other stall pokemon. It can also spin block to keep its hazards safe. The utility set is quite amazing right now, as foul play can make pokemon like Charizard who may think they can set, quiver in terror. It's defensive typing is pretty amazing, having 3 immunities and only one weakness (excluding scrappy). The calm mind can be somewhat underwhelming at times, but in other situations, it's a huge threat to some teams. Mega Sableye also droves a playstyle all by itself, and a pretty good one at that. This is my opinion so feel free to argue.

Raikou is really good right now, and I feel it's worthy of A-. It makes a great Manentric replacement, which the added bonus of either being bulkier on the special side when using Assult vest, or stronger when using choice specs. It hits a pretty excellent speed tier, being to out pace mega Diance, the eon twins, mega Gallade, gengar and most importantly mega Metagross. It also makes a great Pinsir check, as +2 quick Attack does not do very much and raikou can kill with Thunderbolt. It makes an excellent offensive pivot, and has a extent defensive typing. I feel it is on par with mega Manentric (who I feel should be A-, but whatever), and it's ranking should reflect said statement.

While doublade makes a good mega Metagross check, and can switch into a lot of common pokemon, it is no longer a nessicarity on stall teams. It's also set up bait for mega Charizard X, mega Sableye, and mega Altaria. I think it should go to C-, but C is fine as well.

Tyrantrum is actually pretty decent. It can be very threatning after a ddance, and it's hard to revenge kill with priorty do to it's good physical bulk. Also, rock head smash is amazingly powerful, even without a dance boost, so a rocky oldish set is quite viable as well, to make Tyrantrum a potent force against frailer. Teams. Also, every non mega/legendary fully evolved dragon will be ranked then, except for poor flygon and (haha) druddigon.

Agreeing with Bengay here, Mienshao is stupid and unviable. I would not argue about the opportunity cost of using mega loppuny, as mega loppuny is an amazing mega evolution, that actually might have what it takes to be S rank. I know Mienshao hits harder, but it's speed is somewhat unimpressive in the current meta. Not to mention it's very poor defences. Keep it Unranked.

Starmie should definentley rise to A. It hits a excellent speed tier, is a very reliable Keldeo check, and is probaly the best spinner in the meta (not saying it's better then excadrill, just That it's better at spinning). It's very comparable to the eon twins in a sense, as it it's a fast, offensive psychic which can remove hazards. The niche I see starmie having over the eon twins is that it's faster, and can check mega Metagross, as well as rapid spin having generally less draw backs then Defog. Water stab also has generally better coverage then dragon stab when it comes to hitting things super effectively. Move to A

Hippowdon should rise to A, cause, simply put, it checks so much important stuff, such mega Metagross, mega scizor (if it has whirlwind), mega charizard X, mega loppuny, the list goes on. It also makes a great Talonflame lure with stone edge, which is something I have been trying out recently. Finally, it is a reliable stealth Rock setter, and can support team mates such as excadrill with sand stream. While it does somewhat suffer from the 4MSS, (has to choose between toxic /whirlwind/ stone edge), and is very passive, I think it's worthy of a A rank threat.

I don't really have an opinion on magnezone, but I'm kinda leaning toward keeping it where it is. This becuase it is not dead weight against offensive teams, unlike other trappers, has a good defensive typing this (despite large ground weakness) and can stop pokemkn such as ferrothorn and skarmory cold when their not using a shed shell.

DragonAscent: mega Glalie dropped becuase it was weak to stealth Rock, had a horrible defensive typing, lacked bulk
, had the 4MSS (choosing between hitting heatran with equake and wash rotom with freeze dry) and at most, would last about 3 turns. It wall breaking capabilities were enough to keep it ranked though.

I going to make a nom of my own later, so see you all then.

Also can we conclusion reach sylveon? It's been rejected to move up multiple times now, and I think we should make sure theirs not another "Sylveon for A- hohoho!!!" Nomination. (TEhehehe I deleted my own post tehehehe).
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top