WHAT?!! If I I were building a team with landorus the aim would be for it to sweep with rock polish (rock polish only ice shard banded aqua jet, and band brave ohko BTW) or break walls. Landorus while not as 'splashable' as lando t is a lot more threatening to many builds immediately and harder to replicate. If a landorus I team really really wanted to use lando t it would generally because of the lack of synergy both offensively and defensively and could use an alternate and arguably more reliable bulky ground such as hippowdon which can handle HP ice electrics that beat lando I which lando t doesn't. It also beats weavile 1-1 for example with stone edge, defensive land t doesn't. Lando I to s
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
- Status
Hippowdon generally doesn't have room for Stone Edge. Plus it makes you Mamo weak.
I'm saying as an alternative to lando t read the context. And yes hippo has more than enough room the way I use it (edgequake/rocks/slackoff) allows it to beat birds ddamage flying switch ins , enough for me.
Stealth Rock / EQ / Slack Off / Stone Edge is definitely a viable set of hippo is being used to take on birds. It also make sure that it isn't walled by balloon Excadrill. Toxic / Whirlwind are usually better, yes, but sayin hippo has no room for stone edge is not true in the slightest.
I'd say that if I really wanted a second attacking move on Hippowdon, I'd just use Ice Fang, since it allows me to hurt Gliscor and Lando-T which imo are way more important to damage than Talonflame. Ice Fang also breaks Air Balloons (looking at you, Heatran and Exca).
Weavile moving up I agree with, but only if we shift up some of B+, most notably Chansey. We already have 20 B+, with Victini, Volc and Sylveon having big support to go up. Chansey is way ahead of the rest of B+, and Raikou, Breloom and Mew also should go up (not too sure about Brel, but definitely the other 3), especially with the surge of likely rises.
Exploud I'm not too sure on. It seems better than the other C-'s bar Pangoro, but I'm not sure it fits into C. C- needs to be cleared of trash like Gourgiest really badly before we think about moving stuff up from it.
Exploud I'm not too sure on. It seems better than the other C-'s bar Pangoro, but I'm not sure it fits into C. C- needs to be cleared of trash like Gourgiest really badly before we think about moving stuff up from it.
I'm just going to make one post about this myself because I don't want some big discussion to turn the thread to shit, so if you have anything against this say so in a structured way rather than a shitstorm because that is what makes the thread go to shit.
Poliwrath Unranked --> D:lol that looks like a sad face You may be wondering why I am saying this, but it does have a somewhat (very strong emphasis there) notable niche in the metagame (which I know AM is aware of due to this post) so hear me out. Like he says in his post, Poliwrath is a somewhat team-specific option that "does well to check Crawdaunt, Kabutops, aspects of rain offense and Bisharp", making it a very legitimate option if you need to deal with two or more of those threats. Now: this sounds incredibly niche (which it is), and it isn't recommended for most teams. However, this very team-specific idea is commonplace in D-Rank, as well as being a perfect match to the description of said rank (bold (appropriate clause)/bold-italic (appropriate section of clause) in quote yes I know that the title 'D Rank' is bolditalic it was already like that) (proof below to save you the trouble of looking at page one), which is why I decided to bring it up.
Poliwrath Unranked --> D:
NOTE: If you're reading through the post that I linked to and see when he said that he says "It is so specialized that it serves no actual purpose outside of my specific team which is basically what Muk is doing", he was somewhat mistaken as the same logic doesn't apply to Poliwrath becausr the replays which were shown for Muk were subpar and showed that Muk did nothing useful throughout the matches, meaning that it didn't do well for the team - unlike what he said about Poliwrath.D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
Arcanine
Cacturne
Chandelure
Cloyster
Flygon
Frosslass
Gorebyss
Meloetta
Salamence
Venomoth
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-1077.3526596/page-37#post-6008768
I made a nomination for this very same Pokemon and this was AM's reply.
The problem is that Keldeo also "does well to check Crawdaunt, Kabutops, aspects of rain offence and Bisharp", while also having far greater Speed/offence and similar bulk. You're not wrong but you need to address specifically why Poliwrath would be better than Keldeo in some situations. From what I can see its main advantages are Circle Throw and sort of Water Absorb but these don't make it much better at countering the Pokemon you mentioned.
edit: AM's post above raises the good point that Poliwrath is better on hazard stacking teams, as for whether that's too niche or not I guess that depends on the philosophy of those running the thread
I tend to agree with what AM said at the bottom of that post. Poliwrath can do everything you say, but that doesn't make it viable. Poliwrath is basically dead weight except against very specific mons. Even then, its stats are mediocre and with no reliable recovery outside Water Absorb, it's really easy to wear down. If I was at the point where Poliwrath was really the best option for a team slot, I would just start building my team over again.
Sun is pretty bad right now, with Rain rising in popularity, as well as Sand wrecking it. Zard-Y+Venusaur doesn't sound bad in theory, but Charizard being a mega, can't hold the Heat Rock, thus, making Venusaur's chances to set-up lower, and Ninetales sucks balls. For this strategy to work, you have to rely on a free switch into Venusaur, which, with max SpA and Spe, you aren't going to be taking tons of hits. Venusaur also needs LO to hit hard, making it get wittled down quicker. I doubt you can fit Synthesis since Venusaur has 4mss as it is, wanting Solar Beam, Sludge Bomb, HP Fire, HP Ice, Earthquake, Growth, Sleep Powder all at once, so there is no recovery. Also, you miss the main perks of running Venusaur, which is checking a ton of high tier threats, such as Lopunny, Keldeo, Gyarados, Altaria, Azumarill, Manectric, etc. Since you have no Thick Fat and you have much less bulk.
While I don't see the reasoning behind Cacturne and Venomoth still being ranked, Arcanine just comes up into the rankings whenever we have a broken mega steel type in the tier.
tl;dr Venusaur in Sun sounds decent, but there are much better options, both in Pokemon and in weather.
While I don't see the reasoning behind Cacturne and Venomoth still being ranked, Arcanine just comes up into the rankings whenever we have a broken mega steel type in the tier.
tl;dr Venusaur in Sun sounds decent, but there are much better options, both in Pokemon and in weather.
I've already tried. Just drop it. If you can give some proof of concept, we can talk about it again, but until then let's give it some more time before we talk Venusaur again so that it doesn't get blacklisted.
I'm not entirely sure about introducing the Venusaur to the list because it's a viable abuser of a relatively unviable playstyle. Ok, Sun isn't totally unviable, but it's really a far cry from its Rain counterpart and as such it seems like a sub-par way to go unless you want to milk Zard Y's sun for more than it's worth. I do agree though that Cacturne and Venomoth are pretty shitty too, but I'd flip the issue to why they're on here as opposed to why Venu isn't.
Even if sun was slightly viable; like say as viable as trick room, I'm not sure I would agree with Venusaur being ranked even then. It's whole niche last gen came from using sun to set-up; in this gen with weather you don't want to waste time setting up and immediately start hitting. I'd sooner ask for Shiftry to get ranked.
Actually in sun Venusaur is quite powerful with a life orb. It's coverage is decent and solar beam hits really hard. Venusaur also can run sludge bomb to greater effect with fairies being introduced in gen 6. Venusaur's problem is mostly with how bad sun itself is. Without an easy way to deal with things like opposing Charizard Y, talonflame, Heatran, etc without running dedicated checks, suns problems run deeper than many people realize. However, I can say with utmost certainty that Venusaur is the most viable sun sweeper in ORAS having tried the playstyle a lot in recent weeks. Venusaur can clean up a lot of teams with rocks up, but I agree that sun is just too niche to actually give Venusaur a rank and make people newer to OU think that it is worth using on any but the most niche teams imaginable. I've tried about 10 different builds in the last couple of weeks and only 1 has been able to hang with mid ladder teams so far. While I still think that Venusaur is a good Pokemon in ORAS when considered on it's own, the only way to set it up is so terribly bad and the checks to the biggest threats to your team either need sand to function correctly or can't continually come in to check the opponent.
Talonflame is one of the key targets Hippowdon can check. Landorus-T is another one, it really depends on what your team needs. If your team has issues with Talonflame and Thundurus, then Hippowdon can run SR / EQ / Slack Off / Stone Edge or Rock Slide. If your team has bigger issues with Landorus-T and Garchomp, then Ice Fang can be used over Stone Edge. It really comes down to which move your team needs more.
Also, Mamoswine beats Hippowdon anyways, and Hippowdon can usually afford to be paired with a Ferrothorn, Skarmory, or another teammate that can handle Mamoswine, not to mention that Mamoswine is not that common anymore anyways.
Mur
If you're not first you're last
Alright I'm back for more so prepare for another wall of text. Anyways I'm seeing some nominations for things I've thought about before but never mentioned because I tend to stick to what is to be discussed from the op. So I'm gonna try to explain my thoughts on these nominations that I'm supporting from my tutor Bluwing. These two should especially be looked at right now since the meta is slowing down and getting bulkier letting these powerful wallbreakers go nuts on the surge of balance and bulky offensive teams.
Zard Y rise to A+: Honestly I want to see why it dropped in the first place because this monster is a top tier mon in OU and is better than or equal to a majority of A+. Zard Y has an impact on the tier almost comparable to that of the S rank mons, pretty much every team needs at least 1 zard Y check or at least some way of reliably handling it throughout the match. This effect demonstrates how zard Y is a massive force in the meta game since there is only a handful of mons out there that get a priority in being checked during teambuilding. Hell, CTC's teambuilding compendium has a whole section dedicated to Zard Y switch ins and let me tell you not a lot of them want to switch in too often. This leads to the my next point that Zard Y IS one of the hardest mons to switch into in the entire tier. Seriously almost all the mons that want to even attempt to switch in on this savage get wrecked by dragon pulse(less common but usable) or by flare blitz from the mixed set. Zard Y abuses it's ability not only for launching nuclear powered fire blasts but for taking away weather from sand/rain teams making zard Y an excellent check to both of these playstyles. Also zard Y's typing and defenses are not terrible either since 78/78/115 and getting to resist a decent amount of the priority types on something with this kind of offensive prowess just adds to the pressure zard Y inflicts on the opponent and makes handling it that much harder. The support zard Y requires is very minimal considering hazard removal is pretty much mandatory at this point and pursuit trapping latis is not hard to accomplish either. So imo the ability to chew up most of the tier with raw power along with defining the tier enough to warrant a designated check on most teams puts Zard Y at A+ in my eyes and hopefully yours.
Landorous-I rise to S: While I do not believe thundy has reached back up to the level of S rank lando-i most certainly has separated itself from its electric genie counterpart. With a rising speed tier and the natural fast pace of the meta lando-i had appeared to have lost some of it's former prowess. But one ban in the form of greninja has slowed down the meta and put lando-i's favorite playstyles to shred up back into the spotlight. The massive usage of lando-t makes people think "oh if I use lando-i I can't use lando-t!" which is true because of species clause, but it is just a bad argument of opportunity cost. These two fill completely different roles so if I'm using lando-i its clearly because I need what it brings to the table over lando-t. So now that all of that is out of the way what makes lando-i so dominating now? Well like I previously said the greninja ban slowed the meta down some and allowed bulkier teams to flourish all around. This is great news for lando-i as it crushes these slower teams with ease. The sheer amount of power combined with a deep movepool makes switching into lando almost impossible bar a select few mons, which is shown during teambuilding as a way to reliably take it on is almost needed to not be floored under lando's power. This deep movepool also allows lando-i to run a multitude of different sets depending on what the teams needs which makes fitting lando-i into an offensive core fairly easy. The most notable set is probably the rp set which is most likely it's best set since it simultaneously takes on every playstyle. The natural power allows lando-i to still wallbreak against balance and trouble stall while rock polish lets it decimate offensive teams. While the speed creep did hurt lando a little against offense this set proves otherwise. Obviously your outspeeding the entire tier at +2 and setting up is not too hard with the amount of switches that get forced which pressures offensive teams more than you would think. This makes pressuring lando-i an important part of building an offensive team since it just ruins so many offensive teams after just one free turn. It's no wonder lando-i is performing in spl due to these attributes and how much it is impacting the tier atm. So imo lando-i is definitely on the level of keldeo due to it's ridiculous power, versatility, and the defining impact it has on the tier due to lando's ability to potentially break any playstyle it is up against.
leremyju
Banned deucer.
Celebi A-->A+
I'm not sure if Celebi rose in rank recently but it definitely deserves A+
First, it's very versatile. People can expect a defensive/spdef one with baton pass,sub/nasty plot,recover,STAB, but that's not it. Celebi has a very good Expert Belt set that can deal with things like Mega Slowbro and Spdef heatrans. Along with Nasty Plot, it has potential to be a late game cleaner. On the defensive side it can be a great special wall while being able to be a cleric, speed control, etc... Celebi can also fit a role on stall. It also gets Perish Song which is really nice.
Second, Celebi fits really well on teams. Defensive Celebi as I said can serve many roles your team is lacking and can even set up Stealth Rocks. Celebi can check Azumarill although not too reliably, but it's a great water resist and beats the S rank Keldeo although some are now using HP Bug. NastyPass or SubPass Celebi supports teams very well by aiding mons which may be lacking in power, be a little frail, or make a powerful threat even stronger. The former set is able to beat CM Mega Slowburrito. Offensive Celebi is also great. It is able to take out threats for many teammates. For example it beats Slowbro, Rotom-W, Heatran, Hippowdown and possibly Ferrothorn if you are running HP Fire. These are all Mega Metagross checks, and Celebi can also aid things like Bisharp by beating Keldeo etc...
Last I'd like to point out some of its weaknesses. Celebi has the 4x weakness to Bug which really sucks, and it is also suspectible to Knock Off Spam. Depending on what set Celebi runs, it can always be walled by something, although Baton Pass helps so you can pivot to a counter on the opponents switch.
I'm not sure if Celebi rose in rank recently but it definitely deserves A+
First, it's very versatile. People can expect a defensive/spdef one with baton pass,sub/nasty plot,recover,STAB, but that's not it. Celebi has a very good Expert Belt set that can deal with things like Mega Slowbro and Spdef heatrans. Along with Nasty Plot, it has potential to be a late game cleaner. On the defensive side it can be a great special wall while being able to be a cleric, speed control, etc... Celebi can also fit a role on stall. It also gets Perish Song which is really nice.
Second, Celebi fits really well on teams. Defensive Celebi as I said can serve many roles your team is lacking and can even set up Stealth Rocks. Celebi can check Azumarill although not too reliably, but it's a great water resist and beats the S rank Keldeo although some are now using HP Bug. NastyPass or SubPass Celebi supports teams very well by aiding mons which may be lacking in power, be a little frail, or make a powerful threat even stronger. The former set is able to beat CM Mega Slowburrito. Offensive Celebi is also great. It is able to take out threats for many teammates. For example it beats Slowbro, Rotom-W, Heatran, Hippowdown and possibly Ferrothorn if you are running HP Fire. These are all Mega Metagross checks, and Celebi can also aid things like Bisharp by beating Keldeo etc...
Last I'd like to point out some of its weaknesses. Celebi has the 4x weakness to Bug which really sucks, and it is also suspectible to Knock Off Spam. Depending on what set Celebi runs, it can always be walled by something, although Baton Pass helps so you can pivot to a counter on the opponents switch.
I am satisfied with this list. I do Think there need to be a few changes......
You guys probably already heard this before, but Breloom should be A-. Many of his sets can hit A class pokes hard, specifically his Spore/Rock Tomb/Mach Punch/Bullet Seed with a sash. He also is decent with his Toxic Orb set, which i believe is 200Hp/252+Att/52Speed to outspeed bulky Rotom to get a sub up.
Also, Victini is a savage as a special attacker when holding a scarf due to his coverage.
So here is the changes i want...
Breloom (B)----------------->(-A)
Victini(B)------------------->(A-)
M-Absol(C)------------------->(D)
Serpiror(B-)------------------->(D or BlackList)
M-Aerodactel(-A)-------------->(C)
You guys probably already heard this before, but Breloom should be A-. Many of his sets can hit A class pokes hard, specifically his Spore/Rock Tomb/Mach Punch/Bullet Seed with a sash. He also is decent with his Toxic Orb set, which i believe is 200Hp/252+Att/52Speed to outspeed bulky Rotom to get a sub up.
Also, Victini is a savage as a special attacker when holding a scarf due to his coverage.
So here is the changes i want...
Breloom (B)----------------->(-A)
Victini(B)------------------->(A-)
M-Absol(C)------------------->(D)
Serpiror(B-)------------------->(D or BlackList)
M-Aerodactel(-A)-------------->(C)
Ummmm, serperior is a really good wallbreaker and mega aero is a great revenge killer/late game cleaner/stall breaker, why in the world should they drop that much? Mega absol also is pretty great against stall right now so I don't see why that should drop
Agreeing with the above post, serperior is a fantastic wallbreaker thanks to contrary leaf storm. If you're gonna suggest changes please enlighten us on why you think they should be changed. Just making a post with a bunch of rank change requests doesn't do anyone any good.
I completely disagree with Mega Absol and Mega Aerodactyl dropping. Mega Absol is actually a cool and underrated threat. A set of SD/Knock off/Play Rough/Sucker Punch is super cool, and with good coverage in Dark and Fairy, Mega Absol has no trouble sweeping teams well thanks to priority in Sucker Punch, good coverage, and Knock Off being strong. Magic Bounce is also a clutch ability that allows it to avoid WoW, Taunt, and Thunder Wave, which means it can take on even Thundurus and Mega Sableye, especially the latter since it has Play Rough and Mega Sableye is so prominent so beating it with ease is great. C, or even C+, is fine for Mega Absol.
Mega Aerodactyl is very fast, and it has good coverage and Tough Claws making it a great revenge killer. In addition, it takes on Talonflame very well which is an excellent asset, along with its resistances and immunities which mean it can take on a few things like Mega Pinsir, Scarf-locked Landorus-T, Landorus-I, and many others due to its typing, which is another asset plus its good movepool with stuff like Stone Edge, EQ, Aqua Tail, Aerial Ace, and more. It's fine in A-, many people have proven it is a great Pokemon in this meta and it is far, far, far from being anywhere near C.
Mega Aerodactyl is very fast, and it has good coverage and Tough Claws making it a great revenge killer. In addition, it takes on Talonflame very well which is an excellent asset, along with its resistances and immunities which mean it can take on a few things like Mega Pinsir, Scarf-locked Landorus-T, Landorus-I, and many others due to its typing, which is another asset plus its good movepool with stuff like Stone Edge, EQ, Aqua Tail, Aerial Ace, and more. It's fine in A-, many people have proven it is a great Pokemon in this meta and it is far, far, far from being anywhere near C.
- Status