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I am of the opinion that Feraligatr should start in B- rank. It suffers from a bit of 4MSS, but is a decent wallbreaker / sweeper.
I have not used it but I have seen it in action and here's the basic reason I think it should start there:
As firehusky outlined, it has 2 sets which are DD and SD. To some degree, (non-mega) Gyarados is a better DDer and Crawdaunt is a better SDer. However I don't think either completely outclasses Gatr in those roles. Both have a secondary typing which is helpful, but iirc Jolly Gatr is a little stronger/faster than Adamant Gyarados (and significantly stronger than Jolly Gyara) and faster/bulkier than Crawdaunt.
So I think a preliminary rank of B- is suitable as it matches Crawdaunt. It may not be as good at SDing -- although there are pros and cons to weigh for both -- but it is a better Dragon Dancer.
I wouldn't be opposed to it starting a little lower as well since there is always room to move up, but B- is where I see it.
Alright, I've been meaning to bring this up for a while now but I just haven't had the time.
Houndoom (Mega) to B+
Recently, I've been testing out Mega Houndoom on the ladder, and it is truly an underrated threat. With Metagross staying in OU, Houndoom has risen as a great check to it. Mega Houndoom absolutely eats stall, and does great against balance as well. After a Nasty Plot, Houndoom's Special Attack raises to terrifying levels. Combine this with a great 115 Speed stat after Mega Evolving, allowing Houndoom to outspeed lots of things such as Gengar, Mega Metagross and Latios. Houndoom's dual typing is also fantastic, leaving it only to be walled by Azumarill, Keldeo, Tyranitar and Mega Gyarados. A lot of these switch ins, Tyranitar, Gyarados and Azumarill in particular, are easily handled with Will-O-Wisp. Pokemon such as Heatran and Chansey just end up being set-up fodder after a Taunt. Houndoom also has pretty deceiving bulk, as 75 / 90 / 90 actually isn't too terrible for a sweeper. Not to mention, before Mega Evolving, Houndoom posses a fantastic ability in Flash Fire, giving it plently of switch ins to things like defensive Heatran. Sadly, Houndoom does have a rather nasty weakness to Stealth Rock, but that's handled pretty easily. Overall, Houndoom is a better late game sweeper than most Pokémon in the tier (And it's certainly better than Mega Sceptile and Hawlucha) and warrants a rise.
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 133-157 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
This is where the fun begins
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 201-237 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 206-243 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 337-397 (110.8 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 182-214 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 430-507 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-307 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 246-289 (76.6 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 246-289 (60.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also, about Altaria to S. I was the person who first brought this up. I made a few comments here and there about how diverse and unpredictable it can be to face. It's absolutely terrifying to switch in to since you don't know what it's going to have. I support it going to S, but I'll make a post about that later.
Mega Houndoom was the Mega of one of the first ORAS teams I built, and I whole-heartedly support a rise to B+.
To start, as noted, this thing sits at a wonderful speed tier and has amazing STAB coverage for OU, able to stop several of their resistors with WoW. I've also seen a little talk of a Sunny Day set, giving him a pseudo boost thanks to Solar Power and allowing the use of Solar Beam for coverage. Less viable, but a usable option all the same.
Next up, his hazard weakness isn't the most difficult to mitigate. Some things Houndoom hates, or at least would rather not deal with, include Mega Gyarados, Tyranitar, Keldeo, Heatran, and Mega Diancie, as well as Stealth Rock. However, guess what can deal with just about all of those and Rocks to decent effect: Reflect Type Starmie. Starmie can spin away hazards for Houndoom, and the two of them make it difficult to stick a burn on a team, Doom absorbing (possibly w/ Flash fire to boot) and Starmie Natural Curing itself. In exchange, Houndoom checks the Latis, Gengar, Mega Metagross, Ferrothorn, Celebi, and Mega Venusaur, things that Starmie is forced out by and hates giving free turns to.
208 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (44 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now throw in a friend to deal with the odd set missed by Starmie (SubCM Keldeo being a forerunner) and Bulky waters, and you're good to go. I'm thinking:
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 281-330 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And as noted, Mega Houndoom's bulk, while noting spectacular, can save 2% in a pinch
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Takes 85 minimum recoil
208 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 183-216 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
183 + 85 = 268/297 HP. Any prior damage and Talonflame loses to a full health Mega Doom.
Extremely specific, but his bulk is more like dry paper than wet tissue.
Houndoom is a cool Pokemon, don't get me wrong, and it's pretty good too, but it just has so many checks and counters that are literally everywhere. It's opportunity cost is also a factor to consider; by using Mega Houndoom, you can't use arguably better megas such as Altaria, Gyarados, Zard X, etc. Mega Houndoom is also in a "jack of all trades, master of none". It's an effective stallbreaker, wallbreaker, and set up sweeper, but as a wallbreaker, Zard Y and MGarde hit harder, and as a lategame sweeper, Lando-I and Diancie are also perfectly fine contenders for the job.
While I won't debate Lando-I (that thing is just stupid good since it got Sheer Force), I think what sets Houndoom apart is flexibility within battle. Zard-Y and Gardevoir both hit much harder, but their speed tier means they're probably going to stick to wallbreaking, while Diancie is faster, but only hits somewhat but not EXTREMLY hard. Houndoom can wallbreak w/ Nasty Plot throughout the match and, if necessary, exploit his Base 115 speed to clean up afterwards.
I don't agree with an M-Houndoom raise at all. It's plagued by a bunch of issues and just cause it can burn something on the switch in is not handling the issues it has, it's only slowing them down to the inevitable aftermath that is M-Houndoom losing due to its poor defensive stats.
On that point though, if Houndoom burns those threats (Tyranitar and Azumarill for example), the attack drop means that even if Houndoom's too frail to win, those opponents aren't anywhere near the trouble they would've been for other members. If Houndoom's support is built to handle them when they're healthy, handling them when they're burned should be little trouble.
I don't think being a Sableye check is the only reason Houndoom rose. As noted, he's still a good check to Metagross (outspeeding if they're both in the same form), who's probably among the best offense Megas right now
208 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 338-402 (112.2 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And he also deals with Mega Slowbro pretty handily
208 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sableye and Slowbro may have been Stall oriented earlier in ORAS, but I've noticed some people experimenting with them on Balance for hazard control and a bulky win condition respectively. Beating these two does well for Houndoom in that case, considering he already matches up well against Balance as is.
The problem with mega houdoom are:
- he cant learn knock off
- his mega ability is kinda..... situational and suicide.
- his att are good, the problem is his type weak to stealth rock, aqua jet, mach punch, neutral damage to fake outs and really cant do a shit about spam bird
- he dont have moonlight or other healing moves, i would love to use a defensive set with Wow / Moonlight / 2 attacks
against stall, this thing really can do serious damage as long chansey is dead. but against HO, cant do shit about bird jesus, faster dragons, scarf keldeo, scarf landorus, many super fast megas.
As far as i know, Mega dog have 3 potential sets:
- Sun team support with dark pulse / fire attack / solar beam / filler hp, nasty plot, sucker punch
- Lone dark dog with sunny day / dark pulse / fire attack / filler hp, nasty plot, sucker punch
- and the set that i use, nasty + 3 attacks, i personally use Nasty plot / dark pulse / flamethrower / sludge bomb
yes, im coward and i completely HATE when i lose because of acc, i refuse to use fire blast, overheat, heat wave, stone edge, head smash unless they are the only available option ( who would use hydro pump rotom instead scald =]) or the poke can setup hone claws and similar.
I was scrolling through the viability rankings when I noticed that Kingdra was in B+ rank. That being said, I would like to Knock Kingdra down to B rank. First and foremost, kingdra has quite limited uses outside if rain. It's bulk is decent, it's offensive stats are honestly VERY low, escpeicially for an offensive pokemon. Adding insult to injury is its speed, sitting at an underwhelming base 85. The only thing I really see it for is Critdra. Alright, Critdra is good. However, I don't think that it is quite good enough to warrant B+ rank to a pokemon with a 95 base special attack, usually left unboosted by Its item. However, what I really bring you to here is the move knock off. If Critdra gets its item knocked off, It automatically becomes an extremely unstable and risky wallbreaker/sweeper to use, and will ultimately most likely causing a scenario that is more advantageous for your opponent than it is to you. Another thing to mention is the fact the Critdra suffers from 4MSS. If it runs HP fire over agility, it can be KOed by most offensive pokemon such as Landorus-I with some prior damage. If it opts for agility over HP fire, ferrothorn can laugh at its attempts and damage and retaliate with thunder wave, toxic, or leech seed. If it opts for hp fire over hydro pump, MAltaria, Azumarril, sylveon and Clefable can stomp all over it- Altaria and Clefable can even set up on it. Okay, so now let's get to the other Kingdra sets. DD sets are hilariously outclassed by MAltaria, Megazard X and even Dragonite. Furthermore, most sets of Kingdra are massively threatened by status, forcing it to run substitute and a lum berry of the DD sets. Overall, Kingdra is a monster in rain, but outside of it it needs much heavier support that an ordinary that other B+ rank pokemon need to function. So, Kingdra from B+ rank down to B (or B-)
The problem with mega houdoom are:
- he cant learn knock off
- his mega ability is kinda..... situational and suicide.
- his att are good, the problem is his type weak to stealth rock, aqua jet, mach punch, neutral damage to fake outs and really cant do a shit about spam bird
- he dont have moonlight or other healing moves, i would love to use a defensive set with Wow / Moonlight / 2 attacks
Knock Off would be a nice buff, mainly for removing Eviolite, but it's not a valid argument in this case. Knock Off is excellent on Dark-types and really all Pokemon, yes, but Mega Houndoom doesn't need it to be successful.
The ability is kind of mediocre, sure, but it's not "suicide" when Sun is up because it can't cause it itself (unless Sunny Day), and if the opponent has it up then Mega Houndoom is being worn down, not killing itself. Plus, the power boost when it is active is very worthwhile.
Not having a BirdSpam resist is not a way to argue against it raising. Sure, it has weaknesses, but that's not a reason to prevent it from moving up either. Plus, BirdSpam is hurt by Dark Pulse regardless, but it shouldn't stay in on their hits anyways.
It doesn't need healing moves, it's an offensive attacker and sees little room to use recovery (if it even had it). None of the S Rank Pokemon have recovery moves, but they're S Rank anyways because they have no real reason to run recovery.
against stall, this thing really can do serious damage as long chansey is dead. but against HO, cant do shit about bird jesus, faster dragons, scarf keldeo, scarf landorus, many super fast megas.
The only Dragon-type Mega Houndoom doesn't outspeed is Noivern, which is irrelevant. Boosted Dragon-types outspeed it, yes, but why is this an argument in this case? Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Landorus-T are threats and that's why you carry teammates for Mega Houndoom.
yes, im coward and i completely HATE when i lose because of acc, i refuse to use fire blast, overheat, heat wave, stone edge, head smash unless they are the only available option ( who would use hydro pump rotom instead scald =]) or the poke can setup hone claws and similar.
I was scrolling through the viability rankings when I noticed that Kingdra was in B+ rank. That being said, I would like to Knock Kingdra down to B rank. First and foremost, kingdra has quite limited uses outside if rain. It's bulk is decent, it's offensive stats are honestly VERY low, escpeicially for an offensive pokemon. Adding insult to injury is its speed, sitting at an underwhelming base 85. The only thing I really see it for is Critdra. Alright, Critdra is good. However, I don't think that it is quite good enough to warrant B+ rank to a pokemon with a 95 base special attack, usually left unboosted by Its item. However, what I really bring you to here is the move knock off. If Critdra gets its item knocked off, It automatically becomes an extremely unstable and risky wallbreaker/sweeper to use, and will ultimately most likely causing a scenario that is more advantageous for your opponent than it is to you. Another thing to mention is the fact the Critdra suffers from 4MSS. If it runs HP fire over agility, it can be KOed by most offensive pokemon such as Landorus-I with some prior damage. If it opts for agility over HP fire, ferrothorn can laugh at its attempts and damage and retaliate with thunder wave, toxic, or leech seed. If it opts for hp fire over hydro pump, MAltaria, Azumarril, sylveon and Clefable can stomp all over it- Altaria and Clefable can even set up on it. Okay, so now let's get to the other Kingdra sets. DD sets are hilariously outclassed by MAltaria, Megazard X and even Dragonite. Furthermore, most sets of Kingdra are massively threatened by status, forcing it to run substitute and a lum berry of the DD sets. Overall, Kingdra is a monster in rain, but outside of it it needs much heavier support that an ordinary that other B+ rank pokemon need to function. So, Kingdra from B+ rank down to B (or B-)
Of course it has limited usefulness outside of rain, but if you are using on your team in the first place, you really should be using rain anyways. You are also really underselling Kindra's offensive prowess. Despite its seemingly mediocre base 95 SpA, specs hydro pump in the rain hurts like bitch and Draco of course hits really hard. Not much is willing to switch in on offense since it outspeeds even scarfed Latios in the rain. And also lol critdra is not good set, Kingdra lacks speed without swift swim and with agility it's easy af to wall. If you are using as wall breaker there are much better options at your disposal. Don't even mention DD... Choice Specs (also mixed life orb almost forgot about that) swift swim Kingdra is the defining reason why this thing is such threat and it one of the best rain mon in the tier therefore should stay in B+.
I think it's actually the mixed wallbreaker set, not the specs one, but Kingdra should stay in B+ imo. The amount of utility it provides rain teams is incredible (breaking past rotom-w, celebi and mega venusaur) and also not stacking weaknesses.
Of course it has limited usefulness outside of rain, but if you are using on your team in the first place, you really should be using rain anyways. You are also really underselling Kindra's offensive prowess. Despite its seemingly mediocre base 95 SpA, specs hydro pump in the rain hurts like bitch and Draco of course hits really hard. Not much is willing to switch in on offense since it outspeeds even scarfed Latios in the rain. And also lol critdra is not good set, Kingdra lacks the speed without swift swim and with agility it's easy af to wall to even sweep through offensive teams and if you are using as wall breaker there are much better options at your disposal. Don't even mention DD... Choice Specs swift swim Kingdra is the defining reason why this thing is such threat and it one of the best rain mon in the tier therefore should stay in B+.
So, a pokemon is put is B+ rank for the sole perpose of being a rain sweeper? Considering that we now have non-permanent rain and the opposing weather setters (tyranitar, hippowdon, Megazard Y) are running rampant, a Pokemon that is ranked for the complete, utter, and sole perpose of being on a rain team isn't as viable as it once was. Also, I am now realizing that when used in the rain it loses HP fire, leaving a plethora of pokemon that have the ability wall this pokemon- a Pokemon that is supposed to be a wallbreaker. Kingdra is a downright amazing pokemon in rain, but the rain style itself has lost a lot of its luster with the release of X and Y. I think that Kingdra is a good Pokemon, just not one that is as viable as it once was.
So, a pokemon is put is B+ rank for the sole perpose of being a rain sweeper? Considering that we now have non-permanent rain and the opposing weather setters (tyranitar, hippowdon, Megazard Y) are running rampant, a Pokemon that is ranked for the complete, utter, and sole perpose of being on a rain team isn't as viable as it once was. Also, I am now realizing that when used in the rain it loses HP fire, leaving a plethora of pokemon that have the ability wall this pokemon- a Pokemon that is supposed to be a wallbreaker. Kingdra is a downright amazing pokemon in rain, but the rain style itself has lost a lot of its luster with the release of X and Y. I think that Kingdra is a good Pokemon, just not one that is as viable as it once was.
Well if you are going to bring that up then the same could be said for pokemon like Politoed and other Rain mons. Another thing to note is that Excadrill is A rank (should be A+ tbh) and it's mostly for its sand rush set (which relies on weather as much as Kingdra does) so idk what significant meta game changes are causing Kingdra to be less viable because sand teams don't appreciate switching in very much. Rain atm is a very unprepared for playstyle and you would be surprised to see the damage that can be done within a few turns of rain being present for this monster.
So, a pokemon is put is B+ rank for the sole perpose of being a rain sweeper? Considering that we now have non-permanent rain and the opposing weather setters (tyranitar, hippowdon, Megazard Y) are running rampant, a Pokemon that is ranked for the complete, utter, and sole perpose of being on a rain team isn't as viable as it once was. Also, I am now realizing that when used in the rain it loses HP fire, leaving a plethora of pokemon that have the ability wall this pokemon- a Pokemon that is supposed to be a wallbreaker. Kingdra is a downright amazing pokemon in rain, but the rain style itself has lost a lot of its luster with the release of X and Y. I think that Kingdra is a good Pokemon, just not one that is as viable as it once was.
Kingdra would've been much higher than B+ last gen if not for the Swift Swim+Drizzle ban, and he's still sitting at B+ despite the weather nerf. What does that say right there? Also, Ferrothorn is probably first and foremost the target you'd aim at with HP Fire over other moves
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 118-140 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rain may have gone down from last gen, but it's now just a playstyle akin to Stall or Hyper Offense as opposed to just how the Meta is played (Rain Stall, Rain Offense, Sand Offense, etc.).
Rain hasn't lost luster at all and is subjectively the best form of offense that the tier has to offer, even more so in ORAS with the introduction of Mega Swampert as an addition to rain. It has a good match-up against so much of the tier amongst so many playstyles that certain forms of offense sadly will autolose to rain by match-up alone. In a lot of cases you need a heavy defensive backbone to not get floored by a well-played rain team which can be at times easier said than done if we're considering that both players are at an equal level of competency. Kingdra amongst the other Swift Swimmers fall under the category of Pokemon who's main function, and viable functions, are under their presence in rain. Kingdra....is a serious threat in rain and yes B+ is perfectly justified simply for that role alone, which in reality is the only role that should be discussed when talking about its viability. These secondary weather setters such as Char-Y, Hippo, and Tyranitar are weak to rain, they're not even remotely close to an answer to rain more so a detriment that is easily handled by consistent pressure, which the rain playstyle by virtue of what it entails already exemplifies this. Rain hasn't gotten worse and is still an extremely strong play-style. Kingdra is fine in B+.
Alright, I suppose you guys are right. However, assuming politoed gets taken out, I can imagine rain teams would have an extremely difficult time against Megazard Y.
Anyways these are the rank changes based on current slate of discussion. Some things like Kyurem-B and Serperior didn't move simply cause it wasn't being voted on at the time so that'll be taken into account later in the week. I'm also going to use this post to announce that trc will be relinquishing his duties of managing the thread as a co-runner and I will be running it in regards to posting rank updates as he's been busy with other endeavors. He's still part of the ranking team though so luckily for him he'll get to enjoy all the lovely arguments the OU sub-forum has to offer . I'd like to thank trc for all his work previously running the thread dealing with my nagging which I know can be annoying at times so again, thanks trc. Not gonna make a new thread just going to keep this one going for the time being.
With that being said I'm opening the floor for "free talk". Basically no current set topic, just be civil, make reasonable nominations, and we'll take anything that warrants a rank change into account.
Keldeo won't do crap to Hippo/Lando-i, as they won't stay on die for any reason, unless they don't know what a check of keldeo is, things like Sd excadrill would be a better lure because hippo/lando actually switch on it.
It's funny because you talked about the teambuilding constraint that ZardX can be, and you say to total opposite. Like i said it's like Thund-i, on paper it's really good, but in reality there is a lot of things you'd rather play as a mega, and A is good enough for it imo.
I find it funny that you say that Hippo and Lando-I crap over CharX as if he is always gonna stay, yet you say that Keldeo cannot kill Hippo or Lando-I because they are not gonna stay, talking about biased arguments.
Kingdra is great in rain teams, to be honest sometimes I feel it scarier than M-Swampert because first of all it does not take a turn to go at +2 and is great with Politoed since it does not stack weaknesses(this makes changing easier of course), unlike every other rain sweeper, and also makes it good for dealing with Grass types, something M-Swampert,Omastar and Kabutops are scared of, I think it should stay where it is.
You know, usually I don't reply to terrible, poorly-worded and thought-out posts, but seeing as you were obviously mocking me so maturely I'll give it a go.
Mixed sets aren't used for beating offence, obviously. They're use for breaking common balance cores such as Ferro/Tran/Slowbro etc. You're interpreting the 3 attacks Roost sets poorly if you think that lacking Heal Bell and not having five move slots is a bad thing. Tip: it isn't. Look at it in a sense that Heal Bell is an option as long as you are running one of MAlt's other sets, which serves a completely different role than 3 attacks. Why on earth should I care about not having Heal Bell if I'm using it as an offensive rather than defensive Pokémon?
Then we come to your second point about the Pokémon having a bad matchup vs. offence, yet you mentioned the DD set earlier? What? Really, what do you think the point of boosting both Attack and Speed is? DD isn't even underwhelming, lol, it's agreed to be one of the best, if not the best Dragon Dancer in the tier, and is incredibly hard to reliably revenge kill outside of CB Scizor. It sets up on loads of stuff thanks to the big bulk, great typing, and hits as hard as hell thanks to Pixilate.
As for the "muh Steels :(", check my last post over again.
Tl;dr I'm not using Mixed Roost to beat Offence, just as I'm not using DD to beat Balance.
I'm in favor for Mega being S rank for multiple reasons - most of which have been said before. When you compare Mega Metagross and Mega Altaria it seems as if Gross is way better compared to Altaria. However, this isn't as black and white. Mega Altaria has so many sets, it's not even funny, and it can utilize all the sets at its disposal to beat any playstyle.
I'm in favor for Mega being S rank for multiple reasons - most of which have been said before. When you compare Mega Metagross and Mega Altaria it seems as if Gross is way better compared to Altaria. However, this isn't as black and white. Mega Altaria has so many sets, it's not even funny, and it can utilize all the sets at its disposal to beat any playstyle.
Except it can't run all it's sets simultaneously and they all have their issues.
DD with EQ and roost gets neutered by burn (meaning it can't check/counter stuff like Keldeo), DDD has no way of dealing with Heatran, Mixed M-Alt is slow and is walled by Talonflame and Zard-Y as well as Zard-X (pre M-Evo), CB Scizor forces out every variant of M-Alt as they'll be OHKO'd (except DDD which is 2HKO'd and can do nothing back).
It's still a great mon and easily one of the best A+ ones but just because it has several different viable sets doesn't mean it should be S Rank (we went over this with Clefable before).
This thing, especially the Life Orb set, is really unprepared for in OU. It's weak to fairies but almost none of them can switch into Flash Cannon. Heatran is not a switch to Earth Power or Superpower, and Chansey can't eat 2 Superpowers after rocks. It's got coverage for days, and can break any wall it wants. It's got fairly decent defenses too, and by virtue of its typing almost always gets completely free switches into things including but not limited to Celebi and Mega Gyarados, so it's not just a situational revenge killer, nor does it require VoltTurn support to get switches. Its immunity to everything other than MegaDos and Excadrill's Earthquake is really great for it as well. What makes it stand out is its coverage. It's got a poor speed tier, but the ability to bluff the scarf or have the scarf makes it more unpredictable. It's like a mix between Landorus-I (guess that coverage TM) and Kyubes (Scarf or Life Orb, what switches in on this monster?)
The thing is, just about nothing avoids the 2HKO from this thing, and once it gets a free switch, something basically dies. It's not amazing against offense, but against stall and balance it works amazingly.
Outspeeds Mega Garchomp no matter what. Max speed outspeeds Haxorus but that's pretty irrelevant in this meta.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if it's unaware:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Chansey probably thinks it can switch in:
48 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 325-385 (50.6 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 48 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 218-257 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
This is a guaranteed OHKO after rocks even with min damage both times.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 305-360 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Hippo's not in KO range of one Draco, Dark Pulse plus Draco will do the trick.
0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 112-134 (34.4 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
Hippo can't do much in return.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Togekiss: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Togekiss can switch in if rocks aren't up. Not so easily if they are up.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 156-185 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
2HKOes physically defensive Rotom-W without having to drop its Special Attack.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Has to Draco if it's SpDef, although after rocks it can always Dark Pulse first and then Draco. Not the most relevant calc because Rotom can't do much to it.
Assault Vest Azumarill takes 20-25% from Flash Cannon. It's probably the only reliable switch when rocks are up. Then again, with no recovery, it can't keep that up all game.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 364-432 (94.5 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
48 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 234-276 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 48 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-185 (40.5 - 48%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Earth Power OHKOes Heatran after rocks, but Superpower 2HKOes as well. Plus, the best most Heatran can usually do is Roar or Toxic.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Another situation where Dark Pulse plus Draco 2HKOes.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Most Sableye can't touch it anyway, but it can 2HKO physically defensive with Dark Pulse, and Specially Defensive with Dark Pulse plus Draco Meteor.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 198-237 (50.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can even 2HKO Mega Slowbro after it's set up 2 Calm Minds. Again, unless Slowbro is running Ice Beam, this is free.
As you can see, there aren't many walls that can switch in on this. If you get a free switch on the aforementioned Mega Gyarados or Celebi, or Choice locked Pokemon, or Zapdos, or a lot of Landorus sets (as I said before, guess that coverage TM. But Psychic, Earth Power, Knock Off sets are walled), you basically get a kill providing you predict correctly. Of course, some of these calcs don't require prediction as things such as Heatran and Chansey usually can't do much to it.
Looking at it, I'd say this thing fits in more with Mega Houndoom, regular Scizor, Weavile, Quagsire and Suicune than Alomomola, Magneton, Mega Tyranitar, Scolipede and Sylveon.
Except it can't run all it's sets simultaneously and they all have their issues.
DD with EQ and roost gets neutered by burn (meaning it can't check/counter stuff like Keldeo), DDD has no way of dealing with Heatran, Mixed M-Alt is slow and is walled by Talonflame and Zard-Y as well as Zard-X (pre M-Evo), CB Scizor forces out every variant of M-Alt as they'll be OHKO'd (except DDD which is 2HKO'd and can do nothing back).
It's still a great mon and easily one of the best A+ ones but just because it has several different viable sets doesn't mean it should be S Rank (we went over this with Clefable before).
That's an awful argument. You don't know what set it's running thus making none of those pokemon reliable counters, except Talonflame. Zard-y and Zard-x are walls? What?
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mega Altaria: 67-80 (18.9 - 22.6%) -- possible 5HKO Yeah bro, the counter
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 134-158 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After mega evolution it doesn't even do much and can be easily stalled
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 105-125 (29.7 - 35.4%) -- 24% chance to 3HKO
It dies before it kills Altaria.
You can't make that argument mate.
basically every team is largely overprepared for keldeo right now, i don't see why it deserves to be an s rank mon. though it was the most used mon in oras ou in the spl, it has a subpar win rate at 45%. "but it can burn its checks through scald" is not a good enough argument imo because that's as fucked up as saying "tyranitar can counter gengar through a focus blast miss". specs keldeo isn't a good enough wallbreaker (what walls does it break anyways? it's never gonna get past amoonguss/celebi), and sub cm keldeo is a decent sweeper, but as i said everyone has a keldeo counter of some sort, and those counters are harder to wear down/kill, so it has a much tougher time sweeping than mons like mega gyarados, zard x.
basically every team is largely overprepared for keldeo right now, i don't see why it deserves to be an s rank mon. though it was the most used mon in oras ou in the spl, it has a subpar win rate at 45%. "but it can burn its checks through scald" is not a good enough argument imo because that's as fucked up as saying "tyranitar can counter gengar through a focus blast miss". specs keldeo isn't a good enough wallbreaker (what walls does it break anyways? it's never gonna get past amoonguss/celebi), and sub cm keldeo is a decent sweeper, but as i said everyone has a keldeo counter of some sort, and those counters are harder to wear down/kill, so it has a much tougher time sweeping than mons like mega gyarados, zard x.
I don't think we should use win rate in SPL as a meaningful indicator in and of itself, especially if it's as close to 50% without a huge sample size. Likewise, I don't think Amoongus is a big enough issue for Keldeo to drop. Celebi could be, but we've seen gyrations in Keldeo's movesets that have made up for this in the past (HP Bug/flying). I can see Keldeo dropping, but that's mostly because there are a bunch of 108+ special attackers that have gotten really good lately: Raikou, Starmie, and Tornadus-T in particular don't care too much about Keldeo.
That being said, Keldeo has enough of variety in its viable movesets that even though each one would probably be A- to A+, the uncertainty Keldeo can cause in Team Preview/early battle is worth a couple of sub ranks. I'ma page @oh Recreant because she runs the viability: sets thread and would be able to give some insight about how to aggregate mons' sets' viabilities into a more complete ranking.
First of all, are we seriously considering dropping Keldeo to A? I mean, I can understand A+, but A? Keldeo not only destroys most of the metagame with its awesome dual STABs, but has immense power behind its moves, even without Specs. It's got plenty of viable move sets believe it or not, such as Sub + Calm Mind, Specs, Scarf, and Endeavor, and it's great glue on teams that need it. It even has Taunt if you really want to look deeper, which is an awesome option, believe it or not. Not to mention that Keldeo is absolute hell to face under Rain.
Also, Amoonguss is not a relevant factor in whether or not Keldeo drops imo. It's so uncommon on the actual ladder that it's not very relevant, not to mention that that's what teammates are for. Most Pokemon that should be able to handle Keldeo, aka Azumarill and Gyarados and such, can't comfortably switch in in fear of a Burn. A Pokemon that should be more relevant by is Celebi (which is actually handled by HP Bug, which, funny enough, isn't awful on Keldeo.)
The reason Keldeo IS ranked so high is because of how spam-able Scald is. Honestly, I do think it should drop to A+, but even that's a stretch. It's a fantastic Pokemon that in no way should go below A+.
That's an awful argument. You don't know what set it's running thus making none of those pokemon reliable counters, except Talonflame. Zard-y and Zard-x are walls? What?
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mega Altaria: 67-80 (18.9 - 22.6%) -- possible 5HKO Yeah bro, the counter
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 134-158 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
After mega evolution it doesn't even do much and can be easily stalled
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Altaria: 105-125 (29.7 - 35.4%) -- 24% chance to 3HKO
It dies before it kills Altaria.
You can't make that argument mate.
Offensive Zard Y calcs pre mega are retarded... Modest Fire Blast from Zard Y does a minimum of 41.5% to your spread M-Alt (which I assume is supposed to be DDD) any other M-Alt set is 2HKOd by it and non DD sets can't really touch it period.
As for ZardX, bulky wow neuters DD sets not running Healing Bell by staying pre-mega and willowing and switching to something that can take M-Alt on if it's burned (which is a lot of things) should it attempt to set up, Modest M-Alt does next to nothing to bulky WoW, DD sets do beat other ZardX variants though.
Like I said, it's a great mon, but not an S Rank for me.
I think Keldeo deserves to stay in S rank. Keldeo only needs very little support to become a very effective pokemon. Yes, there are many checks and counters to Keldeo, but they all have flaws that prevent them from being very consistent in checking Keldeo. Many psychic types that can switch in are trapped by Tyranitar or Bisharp (I know many people here think this is a fallacy because this is a niche of TTar/Bish, but I think that having many trappable checks is also a niche for Keldeo) Mentioned checks lose to either Specs, Scarf or SubCM and even if the opponent has a check to the used Keldeo set, 9/10 times it can be worn down pretty easily because they are not hard to pressure. The fact Keldeo doesn't need much support leaves the team open to pokemon that help to wear down the checks and counters of Keldeo. I'm mainly talking about hazards control because they can soften Venusaur / Altaria etc. and force them to recover nearly every time they switch in.
Offensive Zard Y calcs pre mega are retarded... Modest Fire Blast from Zard Y does a minimum of 41.5% to your spread M-Alt (which I assume is supposed to be DDD) any other M-Alt set is 2HKOd by it and non DD sets can't really touch it period.
As for ZardX, bulky wow neuters DD sets not running Healing Bell by staying pre-mega and willowing and switching to something that can take M-Alt on if it's burned (which is a lot of things) should it attempt to set up, Modest M-Alt does next to nothing to bulky WoW, DD sets do beat other ZardX variants though.
Like I said, it's a great mon, but not an S Rank for me.
You literally said "And Zard counters if it doesn't Mega Evolve, *Facepalm*
Aha, but then Maltaria runs Refresh and now you're dead. It's not an argument lol
. I'd like to thank trc for all his work previously running the thread dealing with my nagging which I know can be annoying at times so again, thanks trc. Not gonna make a new thread just going to keep this one going for the time being.
