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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
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The fact it checks Talonflame is also quite significant since it's likely going to be used on HO teams which are often very weak to it.Probably gonna get bashed for this, but whatever.
Anyways, I really think normal Aerodactyl should be ranked on this list, it's actually a decent suicide lead.
Unranked ---> D
Normal Aerodactyl faces lots of competition as a suicide lead from Azelf. Azelf has Skill Swap, allowing it to get past magic bouncers such as Mega Sableye, while also having Explosion to gain momentum after it has done its job. However, I think Aerodactyl, while for the most part outclassed, does have some niche uses. One of these niche uses is its fantastic speed. This allows it to outpace just about every other suicide lead such as Garchomp and the extremely common Azelf, and basically shut them down with its fast taunt. It can run Focus Sash to pretty much get up guaranteed SR, while after being brought down to its sash, it can kill itself with Double Edge or whatever suicide move it learns and stop Rapid Spin and Defog.
While I'm not asking for Aerodactyl to go to B or C, I think D wouldn't be too bad, as its high speed + Taunt is actually a good reason to use it over Azelf, as this enables it to basically beat any suicide lead. A guaranteed taunt against the opposing lead and the fact that it can get up guaranteed SR against pretty much any team is actually quite important, and this is also taking into account the fact that HO teams are very common atm. Azelf does have Explosion and Skill Swap over Aerodactyl, but a fast taunt is what Aerodactyl has over Azelf, so I think that's a legitimate reason for it to be ranked.
Checking Tornadus, Pidgeot, Raikou, Pinsir, Dragonite, etc. is also nice
Garchomp-Therian
Banned deucer.
Hydreigon B- to B - agree. Hydreigon's mixed wallbreaking power is amazing at the moment and assuming it has a free attack, which as mentioned in froco terra's post, it gets on several things by virtue of typing and levitate, it can OHKO everything in S or A+ rank that outspeeds it on the switch, and 2HKO everything it does outspeed. It's incredibly hard to switch in on, as if it predicts right you'll be 2HKOed.
Aerodactyl Unranked to D - agree. I haven't used Aero much but it's definitely got a niche as an incredibly fast anti-lead that beats Azelf one on one, has a fast taunt, gets up rocks, checks Talonflame and pinsir if needed. Not the best mon but it's got some viability in OU anyway.
Aerodactyl Unranked to D - agree. I haven't used Aero much but it's definitely got a niche as an incredibly fast anti-lead that beats Azelf one on one, has a fast taunt, gets up rocks, checks Talonflame and pinsir if needed. Not the best mon but it's got some viability in OU anyway.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
I nominate
drop to A. Mega Charizard use to be such a threat in XY, but as ORAS cam along it kind of lost the incredible sweeping capabilities it had with all the new megas. Mega Altaria (A very prominent threat) can counter it
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 186-220 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There is also the new threat of Mega Slowbro, which can also stop it from its tracks
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 186-220 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can also consider Landorus-T (Not really), as he has risen in usage in ORAS
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 223-264 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
I do feel that MegaZard X is a threat, but has loss its power in ORAS with all the new threats. And he is kinda outclassed by Mega Altaria as a DD sweeper.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 132-156 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 186-220 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There is also the new threat of Mega Slowbro, which can also stop it from its tracks
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 186-220 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You can also consider Landorus-T (Not really), as he has risen in usage in ORAS
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 223-264 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 272-324 (91.5 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
I do feel that MegaZard X is a threat, but has loss its power in ORAS with all the new threats. And he is kinda outclassed by Mega Altaria as a DD sweeper.
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All I see is cherry-picked calcs that do not accurately reflect the metagame. Zard X has checks, but so does every other set-up sweeper. These three Pokemon alone are a pain in the neck for Zard X, but how is its inability to get past these Pokemon any different from any other set-up sweeper? If you are trying to sweep with Zard X with its checks and counters still present, then you are doing it wrong. You wait until a Pokemon's checks are removed for it to sweep; the same would apply to Keldeo, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, or any other Pokemon that can set up a sweep. This argument contains too many fallacies to actually warrant a drop for Zard X.
EDIT: Zard X is not outclassed by Mega Altaria either. Zard X has some notable advantages, including being able to get past Ferrothorn without having to run Fire Blast, being able to outspeed Choice Scarf Landorus-T, being immune to Will-O-Wisp, etc.
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Agreed here. If Kyurem-B is getting serious consideration then Hydreigon should move up a rank or 2 as well. They accomplish pretty much the same thing with minor differences (hydreigon switches in better, isn't weak to rocks, and is less prepared for. Kyurem beats azumarril ect.). I briefly outline the strengths and weaknesses of each on the first page of the new Hydreigon thread so I won't here. Long story short, check him out. He might surprise you.
You're god damn right. Mega Altaria counters Mega Charizard X. The whole motherfucking world is out of place unless we drop Charizard X because of the fact that it can be checked and countered.
Real talk that's a horrible argument. Literally every Pokemon in OU (let alone sweepers) has their fair share of checks and counters. Mega Altaria is offensively checked by Metagross, let's drop it to A! Doesn't make much sense, right? Basically, the point here is that just because a Pokemon is stopped/checked by another that it doesn't make it any worse unless it's checked and countered by too many things. In fact, Mega Altaria is completely countered by Heatran if it doesn't have Earthquake, and it's still a ridiculously good Pokemon. If you're trying to make an argument that a Pokemon is bad because of the fact that it is stopped by multiple Pokemon, then that's a case of balancing the Pokemon's bad points over its good ones, which is obviously bullshit. Mega Charizard X, after one Dragon Dance, can plow through weakened teams unlike most sweepers as it packs much more firepower, but just because it has some common checks and counters in Mega Slowbro and Altaria doesn't mean it's bad. This is actually the entire reason it dropped from S in the first place is because of this. Are we going to beat a dead horse?
I have no idea why Mega Glalie is sitting in D-Rank right now. No one disagrees that it hits incredibly hard, but OU isn't exactly lacking in hard hitters. Things like Landorus, Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem Black, Zard-Y, Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, and even edgier stuff like Mega Houndoom and Crawdaunt are all terrifying threats to stall teams. More importantly, all of these Pokemon have something that makes them far superior to Glalie, be it having a better matchup against offense, having some sort of defensive typing, not taking a Mega slot, or some combination of the above. Moreover, Glalie's claim to fame, Glaciate Explosion, kinda sucks. While it certainly can blow a hole in a defensive team, other wallbreakers are able to do that too, and without killing themselves to boot. It isn't something I'd ever put on a team simply because if you want an Ice type wallbreaker, Kyurem Black exists. You could make an argument that Glalie doesn't struggle as much with Chansey and Clefable, but the correct way to fix this would be to throw the proper coverage move onto Kyu-B and fix your team up so that the other one is better managed. I've also never seen or heard of anyone using Mega Glalie at a competitive level (though if there are some replays of tour usage, please correct me), so the fact that top tier players aren't considering this thing for their teams should speak volumes about how good it actually is.
TL;DR: Terrible matchup against offense, bad defensive typing and stats, takes up a Mega slot, and fails to find a niche outside of killing itself.
Few things I'd like to address on Altaria and Lando-T.
Altaria countering means it has to be prepared to switch into DD. And against the bulky DD set (Zard's)
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 180-213 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 186-220 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Zard wins that match-up, making Alt a check at best (and that's assuming it's already Mega'd for better typing and bulk, not to mention SR)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 156-185 (50.8 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, against Lando-T, most Zard's are running Jolly for the Scarf set (potentially more common), since that tends to be a simple "DD" check. If he comes in when Zard's got a DD
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 279-328 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO/93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 324-384 (102.8 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
So if Lando-T has a scratch on him and/or rocks, he can't switch in manually.
And even moving past those, having some checks/counters does not inherently mean the Pokemon needs to drop. There needs to be a significant number of answers before that alone starts impacting the mon's viability. If we judged Zard-X based on being checked by Mega Altaria and Lando-T
- If they stop a lot of mons, odds are teams prepare for them anyway. Also, that'd be illogical since we couldn't drop every mon checked by them.
- If they only stop a few things and Zard-X is among them, that says better for his viability, since needing them to answer Zard-X means he's influencing teambuilding.
- If they're common, see point 1.
- If they're uncommon, they don't have enough presence to impact Zard-X's performance in the entirety of the Metagame.
There needs to be something beyond just having some checks to impact a drop. Diggersby is being suggested to drop because he doesn't fare as well against Balance compared to Stall. Aerodactyl is dropping since XY since Birdspam is declining and the Metagame is getting bulkier overall, making his Speed less valuable than power. Zard-X got maybe 2 new checks and one old one becoming more common, but he's still extremely adaptable in typing, power, stats, and his offensive moves hit exactly what they need to with Tough Claws. Keep him in A+
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Ya I realized now that Zard X is still a prominent threat, sorry if I made anyone upset
P.S I wanted to know if Mega Altaria should be moved up to S, kinda conflicted
Also noticed on this ranking I noticed all of MegaZard X sets are A http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-sets-v2.3532283/
P.S I wanted to know if Mega Altaria should be moved up to S, kinda conflicted
Also noticed on this ranking I noticed all of MegaZard X sets are A http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-viability-ranking-sets-v2.3532283/
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Ok so I made this nomination a while back and it got a fair amount of support so I'll just repost this
==> A+ After getting back into the meta after a while, a mon I feel needs to move up is Excadrill. Im not sure why it moved down in the first place but it's just as effective now in oras as it was back in xy. With sand balance coming back into the picture and hazard control still being close to a necessity, excadrill is able to find it's way onto even more teams as both a cleaner and as hazard support. Drill also beats some of the more prevalent mons, notably the increasingly common fairies and steels. While it does have some issues breaking through certain mons a LO and in some cases sandstorm damage will make even those mons are 2hkoed on the switch with the right move. A is underselling it a tad, I get that since ttar is A then should be A as well but the utility it brings I feel pushes it over. Move driller from A to A+ pls.
Hi guys, I just want to make one quick nomination.
to B+ or A-
I know this is a pretty big jump, but I feel like Weavile has a huge amount of potential. With an excellent speed tier and an amazing attack stat to back it up, he's a very solid revenge killer. He has amazing dual coverage in the OU metagame with access to a good coverage move in Low Kick. He has nearly no switch ins that'll appreciate getting their item knocked off. His Life Orb set is by far his best set, and now that Icicle Crash and Knock Off is a legal set he has more power to work with. Some things that he can easily revenge kill are Latios, Latias, Landorus-T (weakened), Ferrothorn (weakened), Bisharp, Celebi, Jirachi, Garchomp, Gliscor, and many others. He does get checked by many OU Pokemon, like Clefable, Keldeo, and Mega Lopunny alongside his huge weakness to Bullet Punch, Stealth Rocks, and Mach Punch, but I still think he has the potential to do well in the OU meta.
Sorry if this was a bad argument. :P
I know this is a pretty big jump, but I feel like Weavile has a huge amount of potential. With an excellent speed tier and an amazing attack stat to back it up, he's a very solid revenge killer. He has amazing dual coverage in the OU metagame with access to a good coverage move in Low Kick. He has nearly no switch ins that'll appreciate getting their item knocked off. His Life Orb set is by far his best set, and now that Icicle Crash and Knock Off is a legal set he has more power to work with. Some things that he can easily revenge kill are Latios, Latias, Landorus-T (weakened), Ferrothorn (weakened), Bisharp, Celebi, Jirachi, Garchomp, Gliscor, and many others. He does get checked by many OU Pokemon, like Clefable, Keldeo, and Mega Lopunny alongside his huge weakness to Bullet Punch, Stealth Rocks, and Mach Punch, but I still think he has the potential to do well in the OU meta.
Sorry if this was a bad argument. :P
Pachirisu (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Super Fang
- Quick Attack
im actually serious about this. in a tier which is dominated by electric-types because of their pivoting ability while also being useful to check top-tier threats such as keldeo, azumarill and talonflame, pachirisu stands out as the best counter to these electric-types, most notably raikou, rotom-w and thundurus-i. While many grounds and electric resists do exist in the tier, I find that pachirisu has a niche because of the fact that it is immune to volt switch (which means the afore-mentioned electric types cannot volt switch their way out and maintain momentum for the opposing team), while still not being hit for SE damage by rotom-w's hydro pump or raikou/thundurus-i's hp ice, making pachirisu so much more of a reliable counter to electric-types compared to grounds. Furthermore, paralysis support is really the absolute bane of offense atm, offense relies so much on their speed to revenge-kill or set-up, and paralysing them is effectively killing them as they are usually ended up as death fodder once paralysed. Super Fang is also another huge boon that pachirisu has, it softens up pokemon that would otherwise be reliant on having full health to check certain threats, such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W while also not being entirely deadweight vs stall because it can do a really large chunk to them and forcing them to recover their health more often. U-turn is chosen over Volt Switch because nothing is immune to it, unlike volt switch where grounds can simply waltz and prevent it from stealing away momentum. Quick Attack is kinda filler but it always fills good to kill that 1hp sash breloom/azelf with a pachirisu.
If the above paragraph does not make you feel awed by the fact that pachirisu has an actual small niche in the tier, 60/90 special bulk on paper isn't really that pathetic.
here is a ok replay on pachirisu's bulk: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-218072661
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Rain: 210-247 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yum
some calcs from the strongest special wallbreakers in the tier + electric-types
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Sun: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 93-109 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 117-138 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 142-169 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 120-142 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 105-125 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 64-76 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 86-101 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
fits in this category imo
tl;dr pachi has a small niche in being the best electric-counter that existed O _ O
shoutouts to SnowCristal! for using this and enlightening me
Alright, without immediately dismissing this despite my Skepticism, here's a legitimate question.
unranked -> d
Pachirisu (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Super Fang
- Quick Attack
im actually serious about this. in a tier which is dominated by electric-types because of their pivoting ability while also being useful to check top-tier threats such as keldeo, azumarill and talonflame, pachirisu stands out as the best counter to these electric-types, most notably raikou, rotom-w and thundurus-i. While many grounds and electric resists do exist in the tier, I find that pachirisu has a niche because of the fact that it is immune to volt switch (which means the afore-mentioned electric types cannot volt switch their way out and maintain momentum for the opposing team), while still not being hit for SE damage by rotom-w's hydro pump or raikou/thundurus-i's hp ice, making pachirisu so much more of a reliable counter to electric-types compared to grounds. Furthermore, paralysis support is really the absolute bane of offense atm, offense relies so much on their speed to revenge-kill or set-up, and paralysing them is effectively killing them as they are usually ended up as death fodder once paralysed. Super Fang is also another huge boon that pachirisu has, it softens up pokemon that would otherwise be reliant on having full health to check certain threats, such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W while also not being entirely deadweight vs stall because it can do a really large chunk to them and forcing them to recover their health more often. U-turn is chosen over Volt Switch because nothing is immune to it, unlike volt switch where grounds can simply waltz and prevent it from stealing away momentum. Quick Attack is kinda filler but it always fills good to kill that 1hp sash breloom/azelf with a pachirisu.
If the above paragraph does not make you feel awed by the fact that pachirisu has an actual small niche in the tier, 60/90 special bulk on paper isn't really that pathetic.
here is a ok replay on pachirisu's bulk: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-218072661
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Rain: 210-247 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yum
some calcs from the strongest special wallbreakers in the tier + electric-types
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Sun: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 93-109 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 117-138 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 142-169 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 120-142 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 105-125 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 64-76 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 86-101 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
fits in this category imo
tl;dr pachi has a small niche in being the best electric-counter that existed O _ O
shoutouts to SnowCristal! for using this and enlightening me
As a defensive answer to Electric types and/or Special tank, why would I pick this over Thundurus-T (Better Speed, similar enough bulk, much more offensive power) or Lanturn (resistance to Boltbeam, more overall resistances and Bulk, Heal Bell, and Scald for Physical attackers)? Lanturn would've accomplished exactly the same thing in your replay with Thunder Wave, surviving with more HP thanks to its Water Typing (if it wasn't Water Absorb over VA).
Barring Electric specific answers, what can Pachirisu even do while he's sitting in on these opponents? Hippowdon gets hit by the Ice coverage a lot of them have, but threatens back with Earthquake, or can use Toxic or SR while they switch out.
Max investment and an Assault Vest makes almost anything seem bulky enough on the special side. Beedrill is considered one of the frailest mons usable in OU, but:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Beedrill: 153-183 (45.8 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
The replay can't just show Pachirisu performing, it has to show Pachirisu performing well at something another Pokemon could not have managed to the same effect for your team. Also, the Articuno on the other guy's team and the choice of Sableye (a very slow, defensive Mega) for a Rain team (an inherently fast and offensive playstyle) hurts the argument because it throws doubt on where that match was on the ladder, with high ladder replays usually meaning more.
To make sure this post isn't completely on this, let me add my support for Weavile to rise, but to B. Landorus-I is getting better in this Meta, and Weavile's ability to revenge him with Ice Shard and still hit offense decently hard with his STAB combo (especially Knock Off) keeps him from just being a niche check.
Edit: Wow, I'm really behind on the rankings below A-. Yeah, Weavile's a decent revenge killer, but his power's only okay against defensive teams, so I don't foresee him going any higher right now
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DracoNinja is the new sejunpark huehuehue
Ok, seeing as a few of the posts above mine were kinda... controversial, I just wanna put my opinions behind.
I really don't agree with Noivern rising, it's weak even with Specs failing to OHKO stuff like Keldeo and Lando-T with Draco. Relying on moves with shitty accuracy also doesn't help it's case - and it's not like Tornadus-Therian who has better utility options and Regenerator. Stuff that I wanna say have been said by Recreant already, so w/e. However, just because a Pokemon beats another Pokemon in a rank higher than it does not mean it's better. I don't know why BCE, you are comparing Noivern to Mega Pidgeot, and saying just 'cuz Noivern OHKOs Pidgeot means Pidgeot is worse than Noivern. Victini OHKOs Metagross, move Metagross to B rank huehue.
I agree with Glalie going unranked. Why use it over Mamoswine, Weavile? Exploding isn't a good enough niche tbh. Terrible matchup against most archetypes, bullshit typing makes it generally overshadowed by other Ice-types.
I support Weavile's move, but not to A-. B+ sounds decent. It checks many prominent threats in the meta such as weakened Metagross (which isn't too hard to achieve) Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Landorus-I and T. Things like Keldeo and Azumarill don't appreciate Knock Off and Icicle Crash flinch shenanigans are everywhere as always, not saying you should rely on it though.
TL;DR Noivern stays in C-, Glalie goes unranked, Weavile goes to B+
Ok, seeing as a few of the posts above mine were kinda... controversial, I just wanna put my opinions behind.
I really don't agree with Noivern rising, it's weak even with Specs failing to OHKO stuff like Keldeo and Lando-T with Draco. Relying on moves with shitty accuracy also doesn't help it's case - and it's not like Tornadus-Therian who has better utility options and Regenerator. Stuff that I wanna say have been said by Recreant already, so w/e. However, just because a Pokemon beats another Pokemon in a rank higher than it does not mean it's better. I don't know why BCE, you are comparing Noivern to Mega Pidgeot, and saying just 'cuz Noivern OHKOs Pidgeot means Pidgeot is worse than Noivern. Victini OHKOs Metagross, move Metagross to B rank huehue.
I agree with Glalie going unranked. Why use it over Mamoswine, Weavile? Exploding isn't a good enough niche tbh. Terrible matchup against most archetypes, bullshit typing makes it generally overshadowed by other Ice-types.
I support Weavile's move, but not to A-. B+ sounds decent. It checks many prominent threats in the meta such as weakened Metagross (which isn't too hard to achieve) Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Landorus-I and T. Things like Keldeo and Azumarill don't appreciate Knock Off and Icicle Crash flinch shenanigans are everywhere as always, not saying you should rely on it though.
TL;DR Noivern stays in C-, Glalie goes unranked, Weavile goes to B+
leremyju
Banned deucer.
You can't say the opponent is bad or that Mega Sableye is bad in rain. First of all, Ox the Fox is the alt of user Ox the Box (no really) and it has gotten 1800+ and top 5 consistently on the ladder, a very good opponent. Next, user IamGingy used a rain balance team versus me in OST with Mega Sableye. It was very good and I didn't have patience to try and break it. Rain in this gen may be offensive, but it was used before for balance and stall teams.
i hope you guys don't forget that rain doesn't have to be an offensive archetype althought it is mostly seen with offense.
thundurus-t has a kinda bad ice-weakness, which is huge since almost every electric bar rotom-w carries hp ice anyway. sr weakness is also another thing which drags thundurus-t down, although it can be alleviated to an extent with proper team support anyway.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Thundurus-T: 135-161 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO
yea now that i think about it, lanturn is probably superiro to pachirisu in most ways, so i guess lanturn should move from unranked to d instead
thanks for enlightening me, although i still like pachirisu being cuter and having u turn+super fang n_n
Lanturn was actually ranked for a while due to being able to check Electrics very well, while also having Heal Bell and stuff. However, it was considered unviable later down the line because Rotom W is generally superior in most cases and other electric checks, such as Raikou, Ferro, Hippo, etc, are more consistent than the dolphin. While a cool mon in theory, its really not that good in ou for the reasons i already stated, as well as its pretty lackluster bulk and lack of reliable recovery.
Hello, I don,t usually post on Smogon ( though I follow the discussions), but this post made me to do it today. I have used Pachirisu in the final era of XY with AV too, and I can confirm that its good and should be ranked. However, I would like to point out that Quick Attack is a horrible move to use on Pachirisu, as the poke itself is VERY weak and therefore the only use QA would find is to kill poke that previously activated a Sash.unranked -> d
Pachirisu (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Super Fang
- Quick Attack
im actually serious about this. in a tier which is dominated by electric-types because of their pivoting ability while also being useful to check top-tier threats such as keldeo, azumarill and talonflame, pachirisu stands out as the best counter to these electric-types, most notably raikou, rotom-w and thundurus-i. While many grounds and electric resists do exist in the tier, I find that pachirisu has a niche because of the fact that it is immune to volt switch (which means the afore-mentioned electric types cannot volt switch their way out and maintain momentum for the opposing team), while still not being hit for SE damage by rotom-w's hydro pump or raikou/thundurus-i's hp ice, making pachirisu so much more of a reliable counter to electric-types compared to grounds. Furthermore, paralysis support is really the absolute bane of offense atm, offense relies so much on their speed to revenge-kill or set-up, and paralysing them is effectively killing them as they are usually ended up as death fodder once paralysed. Super Fang is also another huge boon that pachirisu has, it softens up pokemon that would otherwise be reliant on having full health to check certain threats, such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W while also not being entirely deadweight vs stall because it can do a really large chunk to them and forcing them to recover their health more often. U-turn is chosen over Volt Switch because nothing is immune to it, unlike volt switch where grounds can simply waltz and prevent it from stealing away momentum. Quick Attack is kinda filler but it always fills good to kill that 1hp sash breloom/azelf with a pachirisu.
If the above paragraph does not make you feel awed by the fact that pachirisu has an actual small niche in the tier, 60/90 special bulk on paper isn't really that pathetic.
here is a ok replay on pachirisu's bulk: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-218072661
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Rain: 210-247 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yum
some calcs from the strongest special wallbreakers in the tier + electric-types
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Sun: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 93-109 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 117-138 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 142-169 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 120-142 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 105-125 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 64-76 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 86-101 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
fits in this category imo
tl;dr pachi has a small niche in being the best electric-counter that existed O _ O
shoutouts to SnowCristal! for using this and enlightening me
For this reason I suggest using either Seed Bomb or Grass Knot, as they might find use against some ground pokes after Superfang is used. Calcs:
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 100-120 (25.3 - 30.4%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 156-188 (39.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 110-130 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 112-136 (26.2 - 31.9%) -- 27.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 100-120 (23.4 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 116-140 (31.6 - 38.2%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 132-156 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ( In my opinion, specially defensive Rhyperior is way better tha physical one, but for my calcs I used its most common set).
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 112-132 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 75.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 132-156 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Well, that all I came to say here. Bye Smogon users
!
Late XY era is irrelevant. This is the ORAS metagame.Hello, I don,t usually post on Smogon ( though I follow the discussions), but this post made me to do it today. I have used Pachirisu in the final era of XY with AV too, and I can confirm that its good and should be ranked. However, I would like to point out that Quick Attack is a horrible move to use on Pachirisu, as the poke itself is VERY weak and therefore the only use QA would find is to kill poke that previously activated a Sash.
For this reason I suggest using either Seed Bomb or Grass Knot, as they might find use against some ground pokes after Superfang is used. Calcs:
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 100-120 (25.3 - 30.4%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 156-188 (39.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 110-130 (26.1 - 30.9%) -- 5.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 112-136 (26.2 - 31.9%) -- 27.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 100-120 (23.4 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 116-140 (31.6 - 38.2%) -- 92.5% chance to 3HKO
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 132-156 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ( In my opinion, specially defensive Rhyperior is way better tha physical one, but for my calcs I used its most common set).
0 Atk Pachirisu Seed Bomb vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 112-132 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- 75.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Pachirisu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 132-156 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Well, that all I came to say here. Bye Smogon users
Also you didn't post a single impressive calc... Pachirisu straight up loses to all of these mons.
Pachirisu sucks and it's not getting ranked.
So Pachi is better than Thundy-T because Thundy-T barely gets 2HKOd by HP Ice when it has zero defensive investment even though your Pachi is max/max?
Now this isn't necessarily the optimal spread but:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Thundurus-T: 94-112 (26 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lanturn should imo have never been unranked. It has a very well-defined niche, its niche is valuable in OU, is not outclassed by anything and it is the the best at what it does : stealing momentum from opposing volt switchers. It can fit well on balance and semistall teams that are based around racking up momentum. It may be a very, very niche Pokemon but it has enough qualities to fit on select teams without something else being used over it and therefore should be ranked.
Aerodactyl should've been ranked a looooong time ago and I'm honestly kinda shocked it took so long for someone to suggest it. It's not as reliable as Azelf, but it is faster, which enables it to beat Azelf 1v1 giving it an edge over opposing HO (also checking Talonflame is kinda nice too).
Also, since we're on the subject of potential D ranks, Regular Venusaur should be ranked imo. Sun offense cores with Charizard-Y and Venusaur have gained a lot of popularity recently and have proven to be very effective on the ladder. I don't have any replays to back this up atm but I could probably find them quite easily given how many peopel are running this core.
Aerodactyl should've been ranked a looooong time ago and I'm honestly kinda shocked it took so long for someone to suggest it. It's not as reliable as Azelf, but it is faster, which enables it to beat Azelf 1v1 giving it an edge over opposing HO (also checking Talonflame is kinda nice too).
Also, since we're on the subject of potential D ranks, Regular Venusaur should be ranked imo. Sun offense cores with Charizard-Y and Venusaur have gained a lot of popularity recently and have proven to be very effective on the ladder. I don't have any replays to back this up atm but I could probably find them quite easily given how many peopel are running this core.
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You really should provide evidence and have an argument, not just agree with what everyone says .__. I do support a rise for Kyube however.
Also Pachirisu should NOT be ranked. DracoNinja you just slapped on max max and an av on it, and with that ofc it can survive a rain boosted hydro pump from omastar.
Also Pachirisu should NOT be ranked. DracoNinja you just slapped on max max and an av on it, and with that ofc it can survive a rain boosted hydro pump from omastar.
Just because it counters something doesn't mean it's good. For example shedninja counters kyogre but does that make it good? No! And putting max max + av can make anything bulky.unranked -> d
Pachirisu (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Super Fang
- Quick Attack
im actually serious about this. in a tier which is dominated by electric-types because of their pivoting ability while also being useful to check top-tier threats such as keldeo, azumarill and talonflame, pachirisu stands out as the best counter to these electric-types, most notably raikou, rotom-w and thundurus-i. While many grounds and electric resists do exist in the tier, I find that pachirisu has a niche because of the fact that it is immune to volt switch (which means the afore-mentioned electric types cannot volt switch their way out and maintain momentum for the opposing team), while still not being hit for SE damage by rotom-w's hydro pump or raikou/thundurus-i's hp ice, making pachirisu so much more of a reliable counter to electric-types compared to grounds. Furthermore, paralysis support is really the absolute bane of offense atm, offense relies so much on their speed to revenge-kill or set-up, and paralysing them is effectively killing them as they are usually ended up as death fodder once paralysed. Super Fang is also another huge boon that pachirisu has, it softens up pokemon that would otherwise be reliant on having full health to check certain threats, such as Landorus-T and Rotom-W while also not being entirely deadweight vs stall because it can do a really large chunk to them and forcing them to recover their health more often. U-turn is chosen over Volt Switch because nothing is immune to it, unlike volt switch where grounds can simply waltz and prevent it from stealing away momentum. Quick Attack is kinda filler but it always fills good to kill that 1hp sash breloom/azelf with a pachirisu.
If the above paragraph does not make you feel awed by the fact that pachirisu has an actual small niche in the tier, 60/90 special bulk on paper isn't really that pathetic.
here is a ok replay on pachirisu's bulk: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-218072661
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Rain: 210-247 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yum
some calcs from the strongest special wallbreakers in the tier + electric-types
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu in Sun: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 93-109 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 117-138 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 142-169 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 120-142 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 105-125 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 64-76 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 86-101 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Pachirisu: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
fits in this category imo
tl;dr pachi has a small niche in being the best electric-counter that existed O _ O
shoutouts to SnowCristal! for using this and enlightening me
I completely agree with Mega Glalie going unranked. What niche does it even fill that would make you want to use it over anything else? Cool, you can explode and do tons of damage, but now you've lost your Mega for good. That's the worst thing about Glalie imo - why not just use your Mega slot for something that has a niche outside of killing itself? It means that Glalie is very inconsistent and there is just no reason to use it over the many other Megas available. It has poor 80/80/80 bulk and a horrible defensive typing so it is going to be OHKOd or 2HKOd most of the time. Its speed isn't bad but it isn't that good either, and if you want to use Ice Shard that's one less moveslot and the thing doesn't really have room to run the moves it wants. Finally, while Glalie is quite powerful, base 120 attack is underwhelming compared to the likes of Gallade and Metagross. The former has Swords Dance and great coverage while the latter has Tough Claws and good stats across the board. Glalie simply lacks any traits to differentiate itself from other physical Megas, so why even use it in the first place?
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