:'( mah throne... its been taken
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)
- Thread starter WhiteDMist
- Start date
- Status
:'( mah throne... its been taken
Lets get this thread a bit more alive with discussion.
PU lures:
Firstly, a lure is 'anything that attracts, entices, orallures.' according to a dictionary. This is the same in Pokemon, however it is not as easy as it sounds, as often the Pokemon will have to change a move or its entire moveset to do it effectively. A lure can be done for benefit for the Pokemon itself, allowing it to . Examples include:
Carracosta @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Zen Headbutt / Ice Beam
What it does:
Carracosta is one of the most devastating sweepers in the PU metagame thanks to its decent dual STAB coverage, great attack, and priority in Aqua Jet. It does have some problems though, there are several common Pokemon; Poliwrath, Tangela, and Gourgeist (as well as other grass types). This set baits them in as they can easily take a hit, also if aqua jet has been revealed, they dont think of Ice Beam (and zen headbutt isnt very common):
There is a reason i dont use special/hp flying. Special varients are mediocre in this meta, as they are forced to run timid, and even then are easily outsped, while aqua jet overcomes this problem. Hp Flying also doesnt do enough damage to those pokes, as it doesnt OHKO (before anyone says they might not be at full health, tangela probably will). Lack of Waterfall is certainly annoying, but it can be worth it to nail one of those pokes.
This set also makes great partners for other physical attackers, as many of whom hate poliwrath and tangela (the two best physical walls in the tier). Stuff like scarf tauros, sneasel, and sawsbuck are pretty useless if they have one of those to switch in and take hits.
Ninetales @ Passho Berry / Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball
What it does:
This ninetales set is built to let it have an easier time vs offensive teams. Standard set it used, but rather than using Life Orb, Passho or Shuca Berry is used. The former allows it to set up on Pokemon like Poliwrath, or prevent it getting revenge killed Aqua Jets, while the latter protects it from being revenge killed as well as having a nicer time setting up on Pokemon like Piloswine. There isnt much more to say about this set really:
Can set up on it
A set Magnemite posted earlier
So, How do you think Lures affect the meta?
What are your favourite Lures?
Do you feel that lures like dropping moves/items (like zen headbutt costa) are worth it? Or does it loose its purpose too badly?
PU lures:
Firstly, a lure is 'anything that attracts, entices, orallures.' according to a dictionary. This is the same in Pokemon, however it is not as easy as it sounds, as often the Pokemon will have to change a move or its entire moveset to do it effectively. A lure can be done for benefit for the Pokemon itself, allowing it to . Examples include:
Carracosta @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Zen Headbutt / Ice Beam
What it does:
Carracosta is one of the most devastating sweepers in the PU metagame thanks to its decent dual STAB coverage, great attack, and priority in Aqua Jet. It does have some problems though, there are several common Pokemon; Poliwrath, Tangela, and Gourgeist (as well as other grass types). This set baits them in as they can easily take a hit, also if aqua jet has been revealed, they dont think of Ice Beam (and zen headbutt isnt very common):
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 325-385 (84.6 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Zen Headbutt vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 455-538 (122.6 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 390-460 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 364-429 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Zen Headbutt vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 455-538 (122.6 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 390-460 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 364-429 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
This set also makes great partners for other physical attackers, as many of whom hate poliwrath and tangela (the two best physical walls in the tier). Stuff like scarf tauros, sneasel, and sawsbuck are pretty useless if they have one of those to switch in and take hits.
Ninetales @ Passho Berry / Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball
What it does:
This ninetales set is built to let it have an easier time vs offensive teams. Standard set it used, but rather than using Life Orb, Passho or Shuca Berry is used. The former allows it to set up on Pokemon like Poliwrath, or prevent it getting revenge killed Aqua Jets, while the latter protects it from being revenge killed as well as having a nicer time setting up on Pokemon like Piloswine. There isnt much more to say about this set really:
Passho:
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Ninetales: 76-90 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Can set up two Nasty Plots
252 SpA Life Orb Swanna Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Ninetales: 130-153 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Ninetales: 147-174 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Easy set up
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Ninetales: 132-156 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Ninetales: 105-125 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hard revenge kill
Shuca:
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Ninetales: 151-178 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Ninetales: 127-150 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
Although Rock Climb and Double Edge does over 90% and 80% respectively, Tauros will opt to go for Earthquake, as it has a higher accuracy (the others wont always KO either), meaning Ninetales can live a hit then KO back
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Ninetales: 190-225 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Ninetales: 76-90 (26.4 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Can set up two Nasty Plots
252 SpA Life Orb Swanna Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passho Berry Ninetales: 130-153 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Poliwrath Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Ninetales: 147-174 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Easy set up
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Ninetales: 132-156 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Passho Berry Ninetales: 105-125 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hard revenge kill
Shuca:
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Ninetales: 151-178 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Ninetales: 127-150 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
Although Rock Climb and Double Edge does over 90% and 80% respectively, Tauros will opt to go for Earthquake, as it has a higher accuracy (the others wont always KO either), meaning Ninetales can live a hit then KO back
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Ninetales: 190-225 (66.2 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A set Magnemite posted earlier
Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Low Kick
This set is a great lure to Lickilicky, as with some Attack EVs you have a varying chance to 2HKO it with Low Kick. It also kind of lures in Poliwrath, which walls standard Simipour. It's obviously not as good against offense as the standard SubSalac variant is, but it's basically a much faster but weaker version of special Samurott back from when we had that (which was forever ago now that I think about it lol). This set is a really nice partner for special attackers that hate Lickilicky, especially stuff like Ninetales (smh @ all of you complaining that the core from that CLC thing was bad). I definitely recommend it.
So, How do you think Lures affect the meta?
What are your favourite Lures?
Do you feel that lures like dropping moves/items (like zen headbutt costa) are worth it? Or does it loose its purpose too badly?
Lets get this thread a bit more alive with discussion.
PU lures:
Firstly, a lure is 'anything that attracts, entices, orallures.' according to a dictionary. This is the same in Pokemon, however it is not as easy as it sounds, as often the Pokemon will have to change a move or its entire moveset to do it effectively. A lure can be done for benefit for the Pokemon itself, allowing it to . Examples include:
Carracosta @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Naughty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Zen Headbutt / Ice Beam
What it does:
Carracosta is one of the most devastating sweepers in the PU metagame thanks to its decent dual STAB coverage, great attack, and priority in Aqua Jet. It does have some problems though, there are several common Pokemon; Poliwrath, Tangela, and Gourgeist (as well as other grass types). This set baits them in as they can easily take a hit, also if aqua jet has been revealed, they dont think of Ice Beam (and zen headbutt isnt very common):
There is a reason i dont use special/hp flying. Special varients are mediocre in this meta, as they are forced to run timid, and even then are easily outsped, while aqua jet overcomes this problem. Hp Flying also doesnt do enough damage to those pokes, as it doesnt OHKO (before anyone says they might not be at full health, tangela probably will). Lack of Waterfall is certainly annoying, but it can be worth it to nail one of those pokes.+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 325-385 (84.6 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Zen Headbutt vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 455-538 (122.6 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 390-460 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Life Orb Carracosta Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 364-429 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
This set also makes great partners for other physical attackers, as many of whom hate poliwrath and tangela (the two best physical walls in the tier). Stuff like scarf tauros, sneasel, and sawsbuck are pretty useless if they have one of those to switch in and take hits.
I would like to take this opportunity to present a pokemon that is really good in this metagame, even more unwallable than Carracosta and doesn't suffer from 4MSS.
Special ShellSmash Huntail
Huntail @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Veil/ Swift Swim
EVs: 80 Att/252 SpA/172 Spe
Rash Nature
- Shell Smash
- Surf
- Sucker Punch
- HP Flying
The given EVs give it enough speed to outspeed Zebstrika, because unfortunately it won't be outspeeding any common choice scarfers anyway. (Misses out on Scarf +speed Rotom-F by one point
)Take a look at these glorious calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Huntail Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 377-445 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Huntail Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 325-385 (84.6 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 80 Atk Life Orb Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 270-318 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, Stealth Rock is your friend:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Huntail Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 222-261 (68.7 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Huntail Surf vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 351-413 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Unfortunately this set is walled by Lapras- thankfully no one uses that pokemon except for me.
Last edited:
Lures apparently didn't revive this, maybe the new drops/rises will. Thoughts, opinions, etc.? Here are some disjointed thoughts of mine before actually play testing.
Ninjask is the new scyther (sorry FU), but it lacks a lot of scyther's redeeming characteristics (coverage, technician, evio SD, a viable scarf set). Volt/turn is worse now. Pawniard is bulky with evio and SD can shit on a lot of teams lacking poli or something along those lines (lol evio monferno beats all the new drops). Can kind of replace bouffalant for shitting on stall somewhat well, although being slower than missy is obnoxious. Probopass is a cool alternative for rocks that also can carry a slow volt switch, but it doesn't seem top tier, although rocks+volt switch+beating flying types, ninetales, and also working on webs is cool. Armaldo and Torkoal are finally avalugg alternatives, but torkoal just doesn't seem amazing. Lack of recovery outside of rest (on a rapid spinner rest/talk sucks), a weakness to rocks, meh offenses, too low speed for smash, and lack of roar, but isn't godawful. Armaldo can actually hit ghosts with a knock off, and has access to swift swim, SD, and aqua jet for offensive options. These are just preliminary ideas I'm dropping, any other thoughts with/without play testing?
Ninjask is the new scyther (sorry FU), but it lacks a lot of scyther's redeeming characteristics (coverage, technician, evio SD, a viable scarf set). Volt/turn is worse now. Pawniard is bulky with evio and SD can shit on a lot of teams lacking poli or something along those lines (lol evio monferno beats all the new drops). Can kind of replace bouffalant for shitting on stall somewhat well, although being slower than missy is obnoxious. Probopass is a cool alternative for rocks that also can carry a slow volt switch, but it doesn't seem top tier, although rocks+volt switch+beating flying types, ninetales, and also working on webs is cool. Armaldo and Torkoal are finally avalugg alternatives, but torkoal just doesn't seem amazing. Lack of recovery outside of rest (on a rapid spinner rest/talk sucks), a weakness to rocks, meh offenses, too low speed for smash, and lack of roar, but isn't godawful. Armaldo can actually hit ghosts with a knock off, and has access to swift swim, SD, and aqua jet for offensive options. These are just preliminary ideas I'm dropping, any other thoughts with/without play testing?
Theorymon!
Torkoal @ White Herb
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Fire Blast
- Rapid Spin
- Earth Power
SMASHKOAL is a relic from BW NU when the spinners were about just as bad. After a Shell Smash Torkoal outruns Misdreavus and KOs it with Fire Blast, while Haunter is unable to switch into Fire Blast without getting KOed. Honestly it probably won't be able to spin even after KOing the spinblocker because it's still outsped by a lot of stuff but it can at least beat the spinblocker and come back to spin later. Also checks Sneasel when at high health :)
Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Power Gem
Checks NINETALES, beats all Flying-types except like Drill Run Fearow, and is a relatively safe switch-in to Psychic-types and stuff like Missy. Also has Volt Switch which isn't a momentum sap.
I'm also interested in a set with SpA investment which will sap momentum even less and Probopass already has good bulk all around to check what it needs to. Sounds like a perfect mon to pair with Misdreavus and probably Poliwrath :)
Torkoal @ White Herb
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Fire Blast
- Rapid Spin
- Earth Power
SMASHKOAL is a relic from BW NU when the spinners were about just as bad. After a Shell Smash Torkoal outruns Misdreavus and KOs it with Fire Blast, while Haunter is unable to switch into Fire Blast without getting KOed. Honestly it probably won't be able to spin even after KOing the spinblocker because it's still outsped by a lot of stuff but it can at least beat the spinblocker and come back to spin later. Also checks Sneasel when at high health :)
Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Power Gem
Checks NINETALES, beats all Flying-types except like Drill Run Fearow, and is a relatively safe switch-in to Psychic-types and stuff like Missy. Also has Volt Switch which isn't a momentum sap.
I'm also interested in a set with SpA investment which will sap momentum even less and Probopass already has good bulk all around to check what it needs to. Sounds like a perfect mon to pair with Misdreavus and probably Poliwrath :)
Ya'll just don't know what's good anymore smh.
Probopass @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
AV Probopass is god, being able to eat up every special attacker you can think of, since Focus Blast hitting is hax and Earth Power is for nubs. Flash Cannon is for those pesky Clefairies, Volt Switch is to gain tons of momentum, Earth power says fuck you this mario statue does what its wants, and Power Gem is for those banded Ninjasks.
Torkoal @ Assault Vest
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric]
Here we have another fantastic Pokemon in AV Torkoal, now you see, Torkoal has very large defense, but little special defense, and since Torkoal has a HIIIIGH SpA of 85, we just slap an AV on it and bam innovation! White Smoke is for those pesky Intimidate Mightyenas, Rapid Spin is to get rid of those Stealth Rock, Flamethrower is so you don't miss Fire Blast, Earth power because this crybaby ass turtle also says fuck you. And Hidden Power Electric is for those Occa Berry Articunos and Pelipper.
Armaldo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast
- Knock Off
- X-Scissor
- Aerial Ace
Now here we have the absolute counter to Rain Dance Poliwrath with AV Armaldo. Armaldo just takes all the Surfs Poliwrath has to give, and just fuck it up with a super powerful Aerial Ace. Swift Swim is because rain, Rock Blast because sash Barbaracle is a huge threat, Knock Off because everything needs Knock Off or else, X-Scissor is for STAB, and Aerial Ace is for the pesky Poliwrath.
Pawniard @ Assault Vest
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Psycho Cut
And finally the thing that is probably going to be our next suspect is AV Pawniard. Eviolite just makes you Knock Off bait, plus who runs Swords Dance? So Assault Vest! Defiant is because Pawniard doesn't give a fuck about you, Knock Off is because fuck you, Iron Head is because look at that blade on its head, want to get hit by that? Sucker Punch because again, Pawniard doesn't give a fuck, and Psycho Cut for Poliwrath of course!
These guys are going to shake up the metagame, so prepare yourself!
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
AV Probopass is god, being able to eat up every special attacker you can think of, since Focus Blast hitting is hax and Earth Power is for nubs. Flash Cannon is for those pesky Clefairies, Volt Switch is to gain tons of momentum, Earth power says fuck you this mario statue does what its wants, and Power Gem is for those banded Ninjasks.
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Electric]
Here we have another fantastic Pokemon in AV Torkoal, now you see, Torkoal has very large defense, but little special defense, and since Torkoal has a HIIIIGH SpA of 85, we just slap an AV on it and bam innovation! White Smoke is for those pesky Intimidate Mightyenas, Rapid Spin is to get rid of those Stealth Rock, Flamethrower is so you don't miss Fire Blast, Earth power because this crybaby ass turtle also says fuck you. And Hidden Power Electric is for those Occa Berry Articunos and Pelipper.
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast
- Knock Off
- X-Scissor
- Aerial Ace
Now here we have the absolute counter to Rain Dance Poliwrath with AV Armaldo. Armaldo just takes all the Surfs Poliwrath has to give, and just fuck it up with a super powerful Aerial Ace. Swift Swim is because rain, Rock Blast because sash Barbaracle is a huge threat, Knock Off because everything needs Knock Off or else, X-Scissor is for STAB, and Aerial Ace is for the pesky Poliwrath.
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Psycho Cut
And finally the thing that is probably going to be our next suspect is AV Pawniard. Eviolite just makes you Knock Off bait, plus who runs Swords Dance? So Assault Vest! Defiant is because Pawniard doesn't give a fuck about you, Knock Off is because fuck you, Iron Head is because look at that blade on its head, want to get hit by that? Sucker Punch because again, Pawniard doesn't give a fuck, and Psycho Cut for Poliwrath of course!
These guys are going to shake up the metagame, so prepare yourself!
Hey guys! We're undergoing some changes with how our main thread is going to operate, and as such it requires closing this thread for a new one. We encourage everyone to resume discussion in the new thread (especially about the new tiering updates!), and we appreciate everyone for hyping discussion so far about what's happened for the tier today. Stay tuned!
- Status