OU Monotype Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.
OU Monotype Viability Rankings
approved by ArcticBlast
written by GodChef, Anttya, Rorsarch, and Enoch

Welcome!

Welcome to the the OU Monotype Tier's Ranking Thread, where we, as a community, analyze Monotype Teams and their different play-styles and Rank them accordingly. The purpose of this thread is identify the strengths and weaknesses of Monotype Teams so that we can improve them and advance the Metagame as a whole. However, I would like to emphasize that there is no best or worse Monotype Team, and that although certain Types may have advantages over others as shown by this Thread, that that does not necessarily mean that a Monotype is better or worse. The heart and soul of Monotype is to overcome your weakness through creativity, intelligence, and skill, and that is the idea that we are promoting here. That said, the ultimate goal is to produce a more Balanced Tier through the cooperation of the community, working together to improve the Monotypes that are Ranked lower than the others. (It may be impossible, but we can try!)

We will accomplish this by Ranking Monotypes. However, since one Type in itself has many different ways of being played, each specific Monotype play-style will be individually Ranked from another, based on the Pokemon that define it. For example, Heavy Offense Mono Flying would focus more on using Pivot based Offensive Pressure with Pokemon such Anti-Lead Aerodactyl-Mega, whereas Balanced Flying would prefer a more Defensive approach, using both Walls and Sweepers such as Zapdos and Charizard-X.


OU Monotype Play-Styles

We will break down each Monotype into the following play-styles, based off of the official Usage Stats (excluding Weatherless)
  • Heavy Offense / +Rain, Sand, Sun, Hail: Heavy Offensive Teams focus on out-speeding and out-damaging the opponent without prioritizing defense. These Teams typically rely on Dual Screeners for survivability instead.
  • Offense / +Rain, Sand, Sun, Hail: Offensive teams rely on out-speeding and out-damaging the opponent directly, using resistances and immunities to take hits as opposed to dedicated Walls.
    • Volt+Turn: Offensive Teams that put an emphasis on maintaining constant Offensive Pressure on the opposing Team, while simultaneously putting themselves in the best position possible.
  • Balance / +Rain, Sand, Sun, Hail: Balanced Teams use a combination of Sweepers, Walls, and/or Tanks that work together to win a Match, while not emphasizing on anything in particular.
    • Semi-Volt-Turn: Balanced Teams that utilize a Volt-Turn Core to bring in their Teammates safely.
  • Stall / +Rain, Sand, Sun, Hail: "Stall teams are based off of residual damage. This damage can come in many forms, including: sandstorm, hail, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, and Stealth Rock. The majority of Pokemon on a team like this will have good defenses and contribute to the overall goal of indirectly fainting the opponent's team"
    • Semi-Stall / +Rain, Sand, Sun, Hail: Balanced Teams whose Walls/Tanks have properties of Stall Teams.
How Monotype Play-Styles Will Be Ranked

The Ranks that these individual Monotype play-styles will be determined through
  • Matchups: How well one Monotype play-style performs against another.
  • Effectiveness: How effective said Type is at performing it's play-style, and whether it's Viable or not.
  • Variety: How much options a Type has to perform the play-style.
These three factors are the Main ones that will be considered when Ranking a Monotype play-style, and should thus be included in your Post. To support Matchups, be sure to include the most important ones; you do not necessarily have to mention them all. Effectiveness can be proved through comparing the play-style to others (within it’s Type, specifically), and by mentioning why it benefits the Type as a whole. Both Matchups and Effectiveness depends greatly on what Pokes that do it, and if the Type is diverse enough to have options. Be sure to include the Pokemon that contribute to this play-style as well, along with the Sets and the Roles that they perform. Overall, what we are looking for in a Post is a convincing, thoroughly argument as to why or why not a Type should be in a Tier, supported by how well they perform in the Metagame.

The Pokemon and their different Sets can further be categorized within a play-style as well. If you feel that a Pokemon contributes enough to a specific play-style, you can nominate them to be included in it. Be sure to Post the Set, what Role it performs, and how it contributes to the play-style, while also considering the above.


An example of how Post should be:

Balanced Flying Mid -----> High Tier

I think Balanced Flying for S Rank, as with their combination of both Bulk and power along with a large arsenal of viable Pokes, they can overcome unfavorable Matchups ( at least Type wise) while still maintaining a dominance over the Metagame. Stealth Rocks, which are widely considered the bane of anything with wings, can be dealt with through Viable Defoggers in Togekiss, Zapdos, Skarmory, and many more. Taunt is also a widespread Move on Flying, so that can shut down the Rock’s too. It can also overcome its Type disadvantages very well.

Balanced Flying can handle both Balanced and Defensive Mono Electric from both sides of the spectrum. Defensively, Balance Flying has the option of running Defogger Zapdos, who, with it’s Typing and Bulk, can shrug off the common Coverage Moves in Thunderbolt and HP Ice while stalling still Electrics out with Toxic and Roost. Bulky Charizard-Mega-X can do this as well, but even better due to it gaining an actual resistance to both Electric and Ice Moves after Mega Evolution. To a lesser degree, Thundurus-T can also soak up Electric Attacks, but it’s predictable and vulnerable to HP Ice (although it could welcome this by running Weakness Policy). Offensively, Balanced Flying can take advantage of the slower Mons’ that Balanced Electric run with Landorus-I, Scarf Moxie Salamence, the aforementioned WP Thundurus-T, and etc. Landorus-I can force many players to Switch out their grounded Electric Types with it’s STAB Earth Power, and can use Gravity to render that tactic useless. Since the most common Scarfer on Balanced Electric is TrickScarf Rotom-W, Salamence can have a field day by spamming Outrage, although it does have to have Magnezone KO’ed to do so. Even the premiere Physical Wall of Balanced Electric find trouble Switching into Salamence’s Outrages, as it is 2HKO’ed by it after Stealth Rocks even if it hasn’t netted any Moxie Boost. Weakness Policy Thundurus-T can take a HP Ice or two that Balanced Electric Teams may opt to use due to an Immunity to their, STAB, and can turn the tables with it’s insanely powerful Attacks coming from an already above average SAtk Stat. Offensive Mono Electric is vulnerable in the same manner as Balanced/Defensive play-styles, but have Manectric-Mega and Scarf Thundurus-T to handle these Threats, so the Matchup is only even at best. This in combination with it’s other many favorable Match Ups make Balanced Flying S Tier in my opinion.

Proof- Salamence (Choice Scarf) V.S. Zapdos (Physically Defensive): 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Nominating Charizard-X for Balance Flying
Nominating Charizard-Mega-X for Balanced Flying. Charizard X can fulfill many different Roles for Flying, ranging from a Sweeper to a Specially Defensive Wall. It's Typing in combination with its natural Bulk provides Flying with an actual Electric Resistance and a neutrality to Ice, foddering the very Pokemon that threaten it’s Teammates. It has access to Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and even Belly Drum to do this, wrecking anything it touches with it's Tough Claws. Charizard-X even has access to Roost, allowing it to run a Bulky DD Set for more survivability. It’s access to Roost also allows it to be something of a Wall, as the aforementioned perks of it’s Typing make it an ideal Pivot. Will-o-wisp can cripple Pokes on the Physical side as well, of which it is vulnerable. Although it may be individually outclassed as a Wall by Skarmory in terms of Physical Defense and Zapdos in terms of Special Defense, Charizard-Mega-X can be an effective Wall as it can do both at the same time. It’s many options, Typing, and great Movepool make Charizard-Mega-X a great candidate for a Mega Slot on Balanced Flying.

Nominated Sets for Charizard-Mega-X:
Bulky DD Charizard-Mega-X

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 140 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Fire Punch / Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

DD Charizard-Mega-X

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

“Wallzard-X” Charizard-Mega-X

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Fire Punch / Toxic
- Earthquake / Rock Slide
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Post do not necessarily have to be as long as the example given, as long as they address the points they are trying to get across thoroughly. tl:dr ≠ good


Monotype Play-Style Rankings

Monotype play-styles will be ranked as High, Mid, or Low based off their Matchups, Effectiveness, and Variety as stated above; not necessarily by best to worst. High Tier is where the Monotypes exhibiting these qualities the most go, while Mid Tier to a lesser degree, and Low Tier the least. When a Tier is nominated for a Rank, i

High Tier: Monotype play-styles with a great amount of favorable Matchups and variety, while also overcoming their Weaknesses without relying on gimmicks.

Mid Tier: Monotype play-styles with a decent amount of favorable Matchups and variety, with the ability to overcome their own without relying heavily on gimmicks.
Low Tier: Monotype play-styles with a poor amount of favorable Matchups, that may not be able to overcome their weaknesses outside of gimmicks. May also be limited in variety.

Update (7-9-14)
With the unfortunate departure of GodChef, Anttyaz, Sae Sae, and myself (Enoch) are left to the management of this Thread. However, welcome floe to the team! Floe (PS! Name = aquas0und) is a well known face on Smogon University's Monotype Room, famous for his signature Mono Water talent and expansive knowledge in the Monotype Metagame as a whole. Not to mention he's fucking King Neptune, the king of the sea. Welcome, aquas0und!
 
Last edited:
This seems like a good idea. Here people that are new to the Meta can learn the styles and how to run specific types. This is gonna add a lot more players to the Monotype Community and I'm looking forward to it.
 

Sae

In the midst of Orre
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think the obvious teams like HO SS monowater for S/High Tier but the other playstyles would be interesting to rank.
 
Heavy Offense Ice mono -> Low

Ah ice....one of Gamefreak's favorite targets to screw over. Despite the amount of defensive based pokemon it's been given, it has a measly 1 resistance (to it's own type no less) and a total of 4 weaknesses to fairly common attacking types: Fire, Steel, Fighting and Rock. Speaking of rock, it translates into a dreaded Stealth Rock weakness, and with very few outstanding spinners/defoggers, having any sort of hazards out can be hazardous for a Heave Offense ice mono.
However ice has a few boons, the biggest of which is the sheer amount of types it's super effective on, including the ever present flying monotypes. For example against the most popular pokemon in OU monotype in May (According to the official statistics) a +2 shell smash Cloyster can....
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 305-365 (102.3 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 1100-1300 (369.1 - 436.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sadly, ice has a huge amount of counters and rarely does well in the hands of types that are Super Effective on it. Steel types can usually wall ice to death while fighting will outspeed and KO. Yet if you play right, and use all your options, you can win against neutral types - even if they run stall.

In terms of diversity, ice has little to offer. Sure you have some titan's like Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Cloyster and Weavile to work with, but outside of that your choices for a Heavy Offense is limited.
 
Last edited:
Heavy Offense Ice mono -> Low/Mid Tier

Ah ice....one of Gamefreak's favorite targets to screw over. Despite the amount of defensive based pokemon it's been given, it has a measly 1 resistance (to it's own type no less) and a total of 4 weaknesses to fairly common attacking types: Fire, Steel, Fighting and Rock. Speaking of rock, it translates into a dreaded Stealth Rock weakness, and with very few outstanding spinners/defoggers, having any sort of hazards out can be hazardous for a Heave Offense ice mono.
However ice has a few boons, the biggest of which is the sheer amount of types it's super effective on, including the ever present flying monotypes. For example against the most popular pokemon in OU monotype in May (According to the official statistics) a +2 shell smash Cloyster can....
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 305-365 (102.3 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 1100-1300 (369.1 - 436.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sadly, ice has a huge amount of counters and rarely does well in the hands of types that are Super Effective on it. Steel types can usually wall ice to death while fighting will outspeed and KO. Yet if you play right, and use all your options, you can win against neutral types - even if they run stall.

In terms of diversity, ice has little to offer. Sure you have some titan's like Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Cloyster and Weavile to work with, but outside of that your choices for a Heavy Offense is limited.
So does everyone agree that HO Ice deserves to be Low or Mid Tier? And if you had to choose one, which? Good points Formerhope, I am personally leaning more towards Low Tier, because it doesn't have much Matchups outside of the situations where it has a Typing advantage, like against Offensive Flying and its various Sub Play-Styles and all forms of Grass. But even these Types have Pokes such as Aerodactyl/Mega, Hawlucha, and Ferrothorn to all give Ice a hard time. It also lacks a Pivot to Fire Moves, with Thick Fat Mamoswine getting wrecked by everything Fire has to throw at it. I don't think Offensive Fighting or any of its other forms even needs to be explained. Even Balanced/Defensive Rock has things such as Aggron Mega to give it a hard time. HO Ice pretty much relies heavily on Shell Smash Cloyster Sweeps to do its heavy lifting, while using Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, and to a lesser degree LO Weavile to remove its Counters. That by no means means that that's bad, because all 4 of these Pokemon are phenomenal by themselves, but outside of that Froslass, and maybe Scarf Rotom-F it really doesn't have much options for HO. However, as a play-style, Ice can consistently pull of a Cloyster Sweep by support from the aforementioned Mons', while Froslass can Anti-Lead with Taunt while Setting Up some Spikes of its own. That being it's strongest merit results in it becoming Low Tier

HO Ice ---> Low Tier

If you agree or disagree with thus decision, feel free to Post your thoughts!



 
Last edited:

ryan

Jojo Siwa enthusiast
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
It should definitely be Low Tier. It has some niche, mostly as a decent answer to Mono-Dragon, but that's pretty much the only reason why I would run it to be completely honest. On the ladder, you run into all kinds of matchups, and Mono-Ice just isn't strong enough to take on enough of them. For tournaments, it's a slightly different story. Obviously in the tournaments we run in the Monotype room on PS where you can't switch teams in between rounds, it's not very good, but it could have potential in tournaments with different formats.

I mean when you really think about it, even against Mono-Flying, you're relying almost solely on sweeping with Cloyster or weakening the opposing team to pick it off with random Ice Shards. Mono-Ice just simply isn't a consistent enough team archetype.
 
Yeah, when I started writing this I was thinking about last generation when I was able to successfully run a HO ice monotype. However as I was writing the post I couldn't help but think over and over again that the cons were starting to out weigh the pros...
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
HO Ice can't be low tier and the fact it's the very first one you placed in that list means we're off to a bad start.
It has a positive match-up against dragon, flying and water, 3 dominant types.
It also has positive match-ups against electric, grass, ground and possibly ghost, psychic and poison as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there is no flying type in the entire game that can take more than one hit (Ice Beam or Fusion Bolt) from Choice Scarf Kyurem-B and none of them has strong enough priority to stop it from 6-0'ing the entire team. Mamoswine is one of the most reliable SR user in the game, and every flying type that attempts to use Defog will have to tank an Ice STAB. Mono-ice pretty much auto-wins against flying.

Mono-water is seriously messed up by Abomasnow's Snow Warning (keep in mind that Aboma doesn't have to run its mega evolution, Scarf is still perfectly viable). Aboma and Kyu-B absolutely ravage entire mono water teams except Keldeo, who admittedly is tricky to play around.
Freeze Dry gives many Ice types a powerful weapon to use against mono-water and Dry Skin Jynx can use many of them as set-up bait. Overall the odds are in favor of mono Ice here.

Mono-dragon vs mono-ice is the usual revenge-kill fest with ice usually coming out on top thanks to Ice Shard. I'm not sure if Avalugg can fit into HO Ice (more on this later) but it single-handedly hard-walls every single physical dragon allowed here (Megazard X is not so it's not a concern). Let's not even get started on what scarfed Kyu-B can do against a team of dragons.

Mono Electric is plagued by serious movepool issues and their main STAB is resisted by the 3 best ice types: Kyu-B, Mamoswine and Aboma, while their best coverage move, HP Ice, is resisted by everything. Ice types are usually bulkier, so they can avoid a 2HKO most of the time, plus they have Ice Shard to bypass electric types' high speed. Two important electric types, Zapdos and Thundurus-I, are weak to Ice, which is huge.
Mamoswine can pretty much slaughter everything in mono-electric besides Rotom-C, who can't even scratch Kyurem and Aboma.
Overall a very easy win for mono-ice.

Mono-grass and ground don't really need much discussion since they're both very obvious positive match-ups for mono-ice. If we really need to elaborate, a surprise HP Fire (which every ice team should carry) deals with Ferrothorn, and Freeze Dry destroys the ground/water types.

Finally, Weavile could potentially sweep an entire mono-ghost team by itself. I say "potentially" because Sableye will ruin its day, so it needs a team mate to deal with it.
Mono-psychic is in the same boat, especially now that Metagross and Jirachi no longer resist dark.
There is also mono-poison, which runs pokemon like Mega-Venusaur and the Nidos, who are very vulnerable to Kyurem-B.

tl;dr HO Ice has more positive match-ups (at least 9) than many other playstyles and therefore it deserves a mid rank.

Though to be honest, I don't think there is a clear distinction between "HO Ice" and "balanced Ice" now that Snow Warning has been nerfed.
Kyu-B, Aboma (either Scarfed or Mega), Mamoswine and Weavile are absolutely mandatory in every ice team, with the last two slots being reserved to more support-oriented ice types such as Avalugg, Jynx, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, Froslass and Cloyster (it usualy runs Spin/Spikes support in mono-ice).
Nevertheless, being able to comfortably beat half the type chart despite the lack of resists makes mono-ice definitely not "low tier" material.
 
Last edited:
HO Ice can't be low tier and the fact it's the very first one you placed in that list means we're off to a bad start.
It has a positive match-up against dragon, flying and water, 3 dominant types.
It also has positive match-ups against electric, grass, ground and possibly ghost, psychic and poison as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there is no flying type in the entire game that can take more than one hit (Ice Beam or Fusion Bolt) from Choice Scarf Kyurem-B and none of them has strong enough priority to stop it from 6-0'ing the entire team. Mamoswine is one of the most reliable SR user in the game, and every flying type that attempts to use Defog will have to tank an Ice STAB. Mono-ice pretty much auto-wins against flying.

Mono-water is seriously messed up by Abomasnow's Snow Warning (keep in mind that Aboma doesn't have to run its mega evolution, Scarf is still perfectly viable). Aboma and Kyu-B absolutely ravage entire mono water teams except Keldeo, who admittedly is tricky to play around.
Freeze Dry gives many Ice types a powerful weapon to use against mono-water and Dry Skin Jynx can use many of them as set-up bait. Overall the odds are in favor of mono Ice here.

Mono-dragon vs mono-ice is the usual revenge-kill fest with ice usually coming out on top thanks to Ice Shard. I'm not sure if Avalugg can fit into HO Ice (more on this later) but it single-handedly hard-walls every single physical dragon allowed here (Megazard X is not so it's not a concern). Let's not even get started on what scarfed Kyu-B can do against a team of dragons.

Mono Electric is plagued by serious movepool issues and their main STAB is resisted by the 3 best ice types: Kyu-B, Mamoswine and Aboma, while their best coverage move, HP Ice, is resisted by everything. Ice types are usually bulkier, so they can avoid a 2HKO most of the time, plus they have Ice Shard to bypass electric types' high speed. Two important electric types, Zapdos and Thundurus-I, are weak to Ice, which is huge.
Mamoswine can pretty much slaughter everything in mono-electric besides Rotom-C, who can't even scratch Kyurem and Aboma.
Overall a very easy win for mono-ice.

Mono-grass and ground don't really need much discussion since they're both very obvious positive match-ups for mono-ice. If we really need to elaborate, a surprise HP Fire (which every ice team should carry) deals with Ferrothorn, and Freeze Dry destroys the ground/water types.

Finally, Weavile could potentially sweep an entire mono-ghost team by itself. I say "potentially" because Sableye will ruin its day, so it needs a team mate to deal with it.
Mono-psychic is in the same boat, especially now that Metagross and Jirachi no longer resist dark.
There is also mono-poison, which runs pokemon like Mega-Venusaur and the Nidos, who are very vulnerable to Kyurem-B.

tl;dr HO Ice has more positive match-ups (at least 9) than many other playstyles and therefore it deserves a mid rank.

Though to be honest, I don't think there is a clear distinction between "HO Ice" and "balanced Ice" now that Snow Warning has been nerfed.
Kyu-B, Aboma (either Scarfed or Mega), Mamoswine and Weavile are absolutely mandatory in every ice team, with the last two slots being reserved to more support-oriented ice types such as Avalugg, Jynx, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, Froslass and Cloyster (it usualy runs Spin/Spikes support in mono-ice).
Nevertheless, being able to comfortably beat half the type chart despite the lack of resists makes mono-ice definitely not "low tier" material.
I don't see any reason to do this in a high to low order. I just started off with a monotype that I know and love and used very heavily last generation.

Several flying pokemon can tank hits from KyruemB, even with adamant max attack. For example...
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 204-242 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery but...
4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 190-225 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not to mention, since your scarfed you can't alternate between them. So if they run charizard/gyarados and you're stuck using ice beam....you're going to have a bad time. Meanwhile if you're running fusion bolt and they switch to an electric counter, similar issues. Not to mention scarf salamence outspeeds it. I've run both ice mono and a flying mono. It's very untrue to say that flying mono's have great difficulty countering ice. Mind you, not the easiest of times, but it's not a 6-0 guarantee by any means.

Given Abomasnow's horrid stats. That means you're giving up a slot for an attacker, furthermore, it only messes up water (or fire/ground/rock) mono's if they're actually running weather. Which unlike last gen, isn't a guarantee.

About freeze dry...who from this list do you want to use it: Articuno, Aurorus, Cryogonal, Delibird, Lapras, Mamoswine, Vanilluxe. Most of these guys aren't going to do a whole lot in terms of sweeping or all out attacking besides perhaps Cryogonal (I'm excluding Mamoswine since he's mainly a physical attacker...) leaving you often times with a fairly easy KO against neutral monos.

I do agree that ice has a very good standing against dragons. However, dragons mono's are decently able to hold their own against ice mono's if they build their team right and limit the 4x ice weakness. Furthermore....WP dragonite and ice shard....all I'm saying.
Again...scarfed Salamence will outspeed and OHKO a kyruem-b.... however ice generally will beat dragon mono's.

Excuse me...."easy win for ice against electric" since when? If they get a sticky web layer out early game, what exactly do you hope to do against them? Furthermore, realize that a good 80-90% of electric mono's are built with the idea to be able to handle ground pokemon. While Mamoswine is a great asset against electric monos, it's not giving you a guaranteed victory. Also, seriously, who uses Rotom-M when Rotom-W is a choice...?

Grass....grass actually isn't an auto loss to ice this gen. In addition to the threat of breloom which left out, M Saur is going to be a thorn in your side. Despite that, the odds are in your favor for this match up, but when against a skilled player, don't drop your guard. As for ground....excadrill. However again, I would give it in your favor since ground doesn't do a whole lot against ice. However it's not a clear cut victory like you claim it is. Furthermore, backing up a bit, who exactly would you have run the HP fire?

Weavile is a major glass cannon. If knock off doesn't OHKO something (such as a sash gengar) it's a pain for it. Not to mention, Weavile is OHKO'd b Aegislash while Weavile can't give a guaranteed OHKO back. Yeaaah, I hate to burst your bubble. But you're vastly overestimating how much a weavile can do. A weavile can 2OHKO a mega cham at best, while it's OHKO'd afterwords by a drain punch.

Overall, you seem to be vastly overestimating how much the ice mono can actually do against most teams. Especially since the majority of teams will run a fire/fighting/steel pokemon. The only matches that come close to being a guaranteed win are grass, ground and dragon. Compared to near auto losses from fire, steel and fighting. While it has a fairly decent chance in a neutral match, you're bringing it down to player skill instead of team development since most of the time the match will be near 50-50 chance of winning.


The difference between HO ice and balanced ice is that one runs tanks while the other is all out trying to kill them before they can kill you. If you're honestly saying that abomasnow is mandatory for an HO ice...think again. Because it's not. Even with a scarf it sits at an average base speed of 90 and with those lack luster defenses and a multitude of weaknesses, it's not staying around for that long. Last generation it was basically a hail bait mon, used to take away other weather setters and little more.

In conclusion: Ice is generally too fragile and does not counter the types it resists enough to be classified as a mid tier mono.
 
HO Ice can't be low tier and the fact it's the very first one you placed in that list means we're off to a bad start.
It has a positive match-up against dragon, flying and water, 3 dominant types.
It also has positive match-ups against electric, grass, ground and possibly ghost, psychic and poison as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there is no flying type in the entire game that can take more than one hit (Ice Beam or Fusion Bolt) from Choice Scarf Kyurem-B and none of them has strong enough priority to stop it from 6-0'ing the entire team. Mamoswine is one of the most reliable SR user in the game, and every flying type that attempts to use Defog will have to tank an Ice STAB. Mono-ice pretty much auto-wins against flying.

Mono-water is seriously messed up by Abomasnow's Snow Warning (keep in mind that Aboma doesn't have to run its mega evolution, Scarf is still perfectly viable). Aboma and Kyu-B absolutely ravage entire mono water teams except Keldeo, who admittedly is tricky to play around.
Freeze Dry gives many Ice types a powerful weapon to use against mono-water and Dry Skin Jynx can use many of them as set-up bait. Overall the odds are in favor of mono Ice here.

Mono-dragon vs mono-ice is the usual revenge-kill fest with ice usually coming out on top thanks to Ice Shard. I'm not sure if Avalugg can fit into HO Ice (more on this later) but it single-handedly hard-walls every single physical dragon allowed here (Megazard X is not so it's not a concern). Let's not even get started on what scarfed Kyu-B can do against a team of dragons.

Mono Electric is plagued by serious movepool issues and their main STAB is resisted by the 3 best ice types: Kyu-B, Mamoswine and Aboma, while their best coverage move, HP Ice, is resisted by everything. Ice types are usually bulkier, so they can avoid a 2HKO most of the time, plus they have Ice Shard to bypass electric types' high speed. Two important electric types, Zapdos and Thundurus-I, are weak to Ice, which is huge.
Mamoswine can pretty much slaughter everything in mono-electric besides Rotom-C, who can't even scratch Kyurem and Aboma.
Overall a very easy win for mono-ice.

Mono-grass and ground don't really need much discussion since they're both very obvious positive match-ups for mono-ice. If we really need to elaborate, a surprise HP Fire (which every ice team should carry) deals with Ferrothorn, and Freeze Dry destroys the ground/water types.

Finally, Weavile could potentially sweep an entire mono-ghost team by itself. I say "potentially" because Sableye will ruin its day, so it needs a team mate to deal with it.
Mono-psychic is in the same boat, especially now that Metagross and Jirachi no longer resist dark.
There is also mono-poison, which runs pokemon like Mega-Venusaur and the Nidos, who are very vulnerable to Kyurem-B.

tl;dr HO Ice has more positive match-ups (at least 9) than many other playstyles and therefore it deserves a mid rank.

Though to be honest, I don't think there is a clear distinction between "HO Ice" and "balanced Ice" now that Snow Warning has been nerfed.
Kyu-B, Aboma (either Scarfed or Mega), Mamoswine and Weavile are absolutely mandatory in every ice team, with the last two slots being reserved to more support-oriented ice types such as Avalugg, Jynx, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, Froslass and Cloyster (it usualy runs Spin/Spikes support in mono-ice).
Nevertheless, being able to comfortably beat half the type chart despite the lack of resists makes mono-ice definitely not "low tier" material.
See the problem is you think just because its STAB can hit it super effective it has the advantage. For Flying vs Ice you said it is an auto-win. the problem with that is with pokes like Charizard-X,Skarmory, and possibly articuno Ice can't just steamroll through Flying. Since Flying has better revenge killing methods and better offensive,scarfs, and Tanks pokes it straight up annihilates ice team wise. Not only that Flying Mono doesn't particularly rely on STAB so it can hit Ice Super Effective with ease.

Ice can't stop mono-flying from defogging either when Skarmory is around too. Ice's method of revenge killing is stomped by skarm who is able to wall weavile,mamoswine, and any other ice sharder bar mixed abomasnow. With mono-flying having better hazard management than ice, being able to shutdown ice's revenge killing strats, outspeeding any scarfs ice has, and being able to break all their tanks I don't see how you can possibly say its sided towards ice better yet an auto-win.

Now on to Water vs Ice, Well lets do team comparison again. Water has better scarfs, better tanks too (swampert,quagsire,mantine,lanturn, etc.), also has better hazard management than ice. Water also has access to sticky webs too and Its stellar wall breakers destroy ice tanks as well and with combination of sticky webs cannot be revenge killed. LO Keldeo cannot be revenge killed by ice mono with sticky webs up unless using a scarf Rotom-F. Articuno threatens it out but...who uses that on mono-ice @_@. Kyurem-b is walled by specially defensive swampert/quagsire too assuming you are running the wall breaking set and not choiced. :S If you happen to be scarfed/banded and use outrage on of the two above they will be able to take it and then you can enjoy giving azumarill a free Belly drum. Because it sweeps Ice after a bit of prior damage on Kyurem-B.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 159-187 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Water is able to keep control throughout the majority of the match with pokes like rotom-w, lanturn, and greninja to apply VoltTurn for constant momentum. Even without Mega Gyarados being mention this isn't looking too good for ice. Now on the contrary Freeze Dry Mamoswine makes for quite the obstacle however with sticky webs up water tanks and such are able to outspeed it and KO with whatever water STAB. Now I could go on with the other matchups but its pretty similar to what I said above. Ice mono is low tier. Now this doesn't go without saying it can kick ass but it takes some serious teambuilding skills and testing after. The stress put on ice mono for nearly every ladder match is very unattractive as well. Atleast Ice monotype has matchups though.

The worst mono imo is ghost. Now its pretty strange how this is low tier as well with some top tier pokes like gengar and aegislash, how could it be the worst. The answer is matchups and the teambuilding aspects. With the advent of knock off Balanced Ghost isn't really much of a threat and with the power creep this gen Most mono teams have something to KO all of ghost's tanks. Ghost also has a pretty bad core too. Since Your are able to just spam Dark/ghost moves at Ghost mono without even thinking, Predicting isn't really an option so even saying it is a core is a Reach. With its only reliable Revenge Killer being Scarf Gengar this becomes a HUGE issue. Gengar is unable to KO Chari-x When its healthy, It also can't One Shot the dragons it outspeeds. Its the same story for most other scarfers Mono-Teams use.

Ghost has shadow sneak priority but that is very limited and not reliable. There's not much to stand in the way of sweeping ghost mono and not much ghost mono can do to stop it. It has no spinners for things like Sticky Webs and Hazards and Drifblim is its only defog user. So let's summarize. Easy to sweep, bad revenge killing options, Close to no matchups, bad tanks, Unreliable Offense, Mediocre Hazard Setter(Golurk is pretty easy to taunt and defog users don't mind it however Dynamic Punch can be quite effective).

It sounds like this type has nothing going for it. "But wait rors! what about trick room :D." Well friend the problem with that is ghost falling victim to sucker punch and fragile enough to make it hard to gain momentum to use T-Room. Usually when you get t-room up You will have lost momentum completely or lost a poke. Even with T-Room up its not that much of a threat because banded Golurk isn't Very Hard to wall, Specs Jellicent is interesting but its lack of power makes it only decent. Trick Room gives ghost some actual matchups though, but not so much as to be an ace or to carry the mono.

There's no such thing as a solid ghost team, EVERY ghost team has a lot of holes. "But rorschach, no team is perfect :[" Well you see this is a very extreme case with ghost monotype. Most Monotypes have at least some improvised method of dealing with things although not reliable it is something. Ghost has literally nothing For serious threats. Just off the top of my head, Mega Gyara, Chari-X, Chari-Y, Bisharp(Lum), and the list goes on and on. Perhaps we should define the tiers though.

Maybe something like:
High - [ Has closest traits to a standard OU team. Solid Stallbreaking, Revengekilling, scarf options and hazard management.]
Mid - [Not up to par with OU teams, lacking in potential and having rather major team holes naturally, Monos that don't make the cut for high. Fluxuation in Stallbreaking, RKing, Scarf and Hazard Management]
Low - [ Mostly Unfavorable matchups, Multiple Major holes, Bad hazard management, Unreliable tanks, Poor revenge Killing Options, Many Auto Loss Scenarios, Poor-Mediocre Stall/Wallbreaking Options, and Lacking Severely in Synergy]

tl;dr Ghost fits my definition of low tier pretty much perfectly. You should break down matchups instead of just saying "this type is SE against this HAR HAR HAR" and Ice is low tier.

Edit: There's is a very clear distinction between HO ice and balanced Ice. HO ice opts for scarfers and a rather futile attempt at outspeeding. Balanced Ice mono typically uses bulky options (Chople Kyurem-b,Piloswine,walrein.) I think Balanced is waaaay better than HO Ice. Balanced Ice is where the potential of ice shines imo and where it poses a serious threat. Also Mega abomasnow isn't much worth a teamslot on balanced ice as it doesn't serve a purpose really. Balanced Ice doesn't aim to Outspeed its threat as much as to take a hit and KO the threat. Mega Aboma's ability to stop Swift Swim is unneeded. As for its grass attacking ability, Pretty nice vs Mega Gyara but thats about it. Usually there is a better poke you could be using
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DoW

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Nominating Balanced Dark for High Tier

Dark has a large selection of very strong pokemon to choose from, with great type and role diversity and many dual-type combinations to work around its weaknesses.
It has offensive juggernauts like mega ttar and bisharp. Wallbreakers like crawdaunt, weavile, and hydreigon. Defensive pokemon like mandibuzz and scrafty. Stallers like sableye and umbreon. SR setters and removers in ttar, krookodile, bisharp, mandibuzz, honchkrow, and shiftry. Dark type has everything you need to make a great balanced team.

It's got plenty of type combinations and coverage available to beat types that it would otherwise have a field day with it. Mandibuzz and sableye are neutral to bug and can cripple set up sweepers such as volcarona and scizor, while ttar can stone edge and hydreigon can burn everything. Sableye single-handedly blocks a large amount of fighting's strongest pokemon with priority will-o-wisp and recover to stall them out and foul play to punish them if they decide to boost. Greninja can run extrasensory to become resistant to fighting and hit them back SE. Mandibuzz and drapion are also neutral to fighting.
Dark does have a significant problem against mono fairy however, with the biggest problems being mega mawile and azumarill. Mega mawile can OHKO almost everything dark has and its only chance against it is to hit it with a faster fire/ground move. Resisting sucker punch helps though.
Azumarill is also a huge problem as not much on a dark team has any electric/grass coverage besides things like grass knot (which doesn't hurt azumarill very hard anyway) and mediocre pokemon such as cacturne.
Speaking of which, mono dark also has problems against mono water as a huge number of dark pokemon are hit SE by either water or ice, whereas dark usually lacks the coverage moves to hit them back hard and has to rely on taking advantage of dual-typed waters' second types. Most of the dark pokemon neutral to water/ice are also relatively frail, limiting defensive switch-ins. Ttar can help to get rid of opposing rain but hates strong hydro pumps and giga drains.

Even with these problems, balanced dark has enough great pokemon of varying types and styles to give the player a strong team that is ready to take on any challenge.

(Sorry if I missed any significant threats or whatever -- I mostly play a different 3v3 mono meta with legendaries banned so I don't have much experience with showdown's ladder)
 
Dark does have a very strong lineup, but I do disagree on your point about SR. SR TTar is alright, but that means you are using neither a DDance Megatar or an AV special wall, which are two of it's best sets, both of which being invaluable to mono dark, Megatar especially. Bisharp does get it too, but has better things to use its moveslots on, like sub, SD or coverage. The most viable SR setter for dark is a lead Krook with taunt. It is reasonably fast and gets the job done, but doing so means you are missing out on using a better physical attacker and/or the scarf moxie set, which is the best physical scarfer available to dark teams.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
Dark does have a very strong lineup, but I do disagree on your point about SR. SR TTar is alright, but that means you are using neither a DDance Megatar or an AV special wall, which are two of it's best sets, both of which being invaluable to mono dark, Megatar especially. Bisharp does get it too, but has better things to use its moveslots on, like sub, SD or coverage. The most viable SR setter for dark is a lead Krook with taunt. It is reasonably fast and gets the job done, but doing so means you are missing out on using a better physical attacker and/or the scarf moxie set, which is the best physical scarfer available to dark teams.
Yes, but the point is that it has options, as opposed to, for example, electric, which is forced to use Stunfisk if they want SR.
Dark's also got a few (T)-Spikes setters if you really want them.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
I'd like to nominate Offensive Dragon for Mid/High Tier.

In Gen 5, most people agreed that Dragon teams were, if not broken, at least one of the strongest types in the metagame. Some leagues even introduced an unofficial "Outrage-ous" clause, banning the use of more than 4 dragons with a BST of 600 or more on a team. The introduction of fairies has obviously reduced the threat, but Outrage-spam is still a very strong tactic. The introduction of Defog removing hazards also helped as Latios and Latias are very common and the large number of pokemon weak to Stealth Rock (e.g. Kyurem-b, Dragonite) appreciate this a lot.

Dragon types have a reasonable number of type advantages, with fire, water, grass and electric all being resisted, while ice, steel and fairy have a type advantage against it. Dragons can still deal with these type disadvantages reasonably well, however, as many dragons carry ground, fire, fighting and steel moves, which between them hit pretty much anything that might have an advantage over them hard. Moreover, anything that isn't steel or fairy is susceptible to Outrage-spam, where the player sends out whatever pokemon is best suited, clicks on "Outrage" or "Draco Meteor", and watches something die.

That's not to say Dragons aren't counterable. Many teams contain a steel or fairy type to help deal with Dragons, and Ice moves are reasonably common and difficult to counter for Dragons. Outside of Goodra and Druddigon they don't have much to work well defensively, and even these don't get reliable recovery and work more as defensive pivots or rocks setters and phazers.

However, this is the reason that Dragon teams run Offense: despite not very many bulky pokemon, they have good enough hazard setters (e.g. Garchomp), defoggers (Lati@s), sweepers, wallbreakers and revenge killers (see: most of the BST 600 dragons, not to mention haxorus, kingdra etc).

While Dragon still struggles against Fairy, it still does reasonably well against Steel and Ice, and it is a force that has to be prepared for by any team that wishes to do well on the ladder. This is why I believe it should be Mid/High Tier.

A badly made sample team, but it gets the job done:
Dragonite @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Iron Head

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam

Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball
- Trick

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spd
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake

Salamence @ Focus Sash
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Iron Tail

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Wish
- Defog
- Surf
- Thunder Wave
 
Last edited:
I'd say water -> A(+)/S rank.
PROS:

Water is a good typing, both defensively and offensively, having 2 weaknesses only.

They can use DrizzleSwim, having many abusers to support it ( Kabutops, Kingdra, HELIX GOD V.2... )

With most of the pokemon being this type, they have the potential to go for pretty much anything you can think.

They typically have ice-type moves, so they can punish Grass type moves.

They can overcome their weakness to Electric using Lanturn, which is much less a sitting duck than you could think, and can take pretty much anythink elec can throw at(dat mighty Electavar gonna crush your hopes w/ earth tremors)

Gyarados can typically bounce its way throught Mono grass.

They have strong attackers in both sides of the spectrum, albeit physical ones tend to be slow.

Apart from some cases( yes , my little pony, i'm watching YOU ) they have all the coverage they need.

They have Rotom-W and the aforenmentioned Lanturn which rape mono flying.

They have dis infuriating hot water to throw around.

They have Greninja, which allows them
to dismantle some common counters.

They can easily end a game (BDrill, CMkeldeo,DerpCritDra, and others).

They can quite reasonably hazards control.

CONS

They don't have Mevos.

They have to use Empoleon, Tentacruel or Sap Sipper Azuma or gyarados to switch in grass moves.

They typically struggle with Mega Venusaur, unless you want to run the MIGHTY SWAN OF DESTRUCTION or gyarados.
 
Last edited:
I'd say water -> A(+)/S rank.
PROS:

Water is a good typing, both defensively and offensively, having 2 weaknesses only.

With most of the pokemon being this type, they have the potential to go for pretty much anything you can think.

They typically have ice-type moves, so they can punish Grass type moves.

They can overcome their weakness to Electric using Lanturn, which is much less a sitting duck than you could think, and can take pretty much anythink elec can throw at(dat mighty Electavar gonna crush your hopes w/ earth tremors)

Gyarados can typically bounce its way throught Mono grass.

They have strong attackers in both sides of the spectrum, albeit physical ones tend to be slow.

Apart from some cases( yes , my little pony, i'm watching YOU ) they have all the coverage they need.

They have Rotom-W and the aforenmentioned Lanturn that rape Mono flying.

They have dis infuriating hot water to throw around.

They have Greninja, which allows them
to dismantle some common counters.

They can easily end a game (BDrill, CMkeldeo,DerpCritDra, and others).

They can quite reasonably hazards control.

CONS

They don't have Mevos.

They have to use Empoleon, Tentacruel or Sap Sipper Azuma or gyarados to switch in grass moves.

They typically struggle with Mega Venusaur, unless you want to run the MIGHTY SWAN OF DESTRUCTION or gyarados.
They have mega Gyarados which is arguably one of the best bulky dragon dancers ever and they have rain+swift swim and they have dat strongasss pony and type-hacking Greninja.... Yup mono water, specifically offensive water for S rank
 
Last edited:

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
Edit: There's is a very clear distinction between HO ice and balanced Ice. HO ice opts for scarfers and a rather futile attempt at outspeeding. Balanced Ice mono typically uses bulky options (Chople Kyurem-b,Piloswine,walrein.) I think Balanced is waaaay better than HO Ice. Balanced Ice is where the potential of ice shines imo and where it poses a serious threat. Also Mega abomasnow isn't much worth a teamslot on balanced ice as it doesn't serve a purpose really. Balanced Ice doesn't aim to Outspeed its threat as much as to take a hit and KO the threat. Mega Aboma's ability to stop Swift Swim is unneeded. As for its grass attacking ability, Pretty nice vs Mega Gyara but thats about it. Usually there is a better poke you could be using
You misunderstand, I say there is no disitnction between balanced and HO Ice, because as you've just pointed out, HO Ice is unviable. There's really only one viable Ice team in monotype that happens to be bulky/balanced offense.
You shouldn't underestimate Scarf Kyu-B however because it single-handedly dismantles entire teams (especially mono-Flying as I mentioned in my previous post) and how is Abomasnow's Snow Warning unecessary when it's the best answer to Swift Swim teams in the entire metagame? You know, one of the very few playstyles that can't be any lower thank high rank? That alone is an extremely important niche and it's one of the reasons monotype Ice is viable.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
I'd say water -> A(+)/S rank.
PROS:

Water is a good typing, both defensively and offensively, having 2 weaknesses only.

They can use DrizzleSwim, having many abusers to support it ( Kabutops, Kingdra, HELIX GOD V.2... )

With most of the pokemon being this type, they have the potential to go for pretty much anything you can think.

They typically have ice-type moves, so they can punish Grass type moves.

They can overcome their weakness to Electric using Lanturn, which is much less a sitting duck than you could think, and can take pretty much anythink elec can throw at(dat mighty Electavar gonna crush your hopes w/ earth tremors)

Gyarados can typically bounce its way throught Mono grass.

They have strong attackers in both sides of the spectrum, albeit physical ones tend to be slow.

Apart from some cases( yes , my little pony, i'm watching YOU ) they have all the coverage they need.

They have Rotom-W and the aforenmentioned Lanturn that rape Mono flying.

They have dis infuriating hot water to throw around.

They have Greninja, which allows them
to dismantle some common counters.

They can easily end a game (BDrill, CMkeldeo,DerpCritDra, and others).

They can quite reasonably hazards control.

CONS

They don't have Mevos.

They have to use Empoleon, Tentacruel or Sap Sipper Azuma or gyarados to switch in grass moves.

They typically struggle with Mega Venusaur, unless you want to run the MIGHTY SWAN OF DESTRUCTION or gyarados.
While I disagree with Rotom-W and Lanturn being able to "rape mono flying" (they are dealt with reasonably well by zapdos and landorus, if not easily switched in to), I agree that Mono water, even without SS, is a powerful force. However, I feel that it should be split into two groups: Offensive (Swift Swim) water and Bulky water, both of which have multiple things going for them and should probably both be High tier.

The common BoltBeam combo should probably also be mentioned, as along with water moves pokemon like Starmie can use this to heavily damage (in no particular order) Flying, Ground, opposing Water, Grass, Fire, Dragon, Rock... probably some more I can't think of. But outside of Shedinja (lol) they can hit literally anything for neutral damage, and there are plenty of hard-hitters, many of which can use BoltBeam.

We should also mention they have usable hazard control, and I think the lack of Mevos doesn't matter at all. They have everything they need; if they don't need any Mevos to manage that I don't see it as a problem.
 
I'd like to nominate Hyper Offensive Electric for Low / Mid tier.


The problem with Electric is that you don't have enough options. Yes, you have plenty of Special Attackers, but you only have 1 decent physical attacker named Electivire. However, you have access to Sticky Web (Galvantula). As most of you know, Sticky Web lets you lower every grounded Pokemon’s speed by 1. This makes a huge difference since it lets Pokemon like Electivire outspeed Terrakions etc. Electric Pokemon are also generally frail making it hard for them to switch out and in. They also do not have have any viable priority users out of Thundurus-I (Thunder Wave) making it extremely hard for Electric monos to stop set up sweepers. You can only gets Stealth Rock from Stunfisk which is a pretty bad Pokemon overall. In return you get only 1 weakness that a lot of Pokemon are immune to (Ground), and combined with Hidden Power Ice, you have the BoltBeam combo. Electric is only resisted by Grass which is hardly seen, and Ground and Dragon, which is covered by HP Ice. Another thing is that Electric Pokemon are generally fast, so combined with a Life Orb / Specs / Band you can power through most teams after weakening them. So when you combine them all together, I think that HO Electric deserves to be in the upper Low, or Mid tier.

An appropriate team would abuse Sticky Web as much as possible. So Galvantula would be ideal. Also, instead of having bulky Pokemon, you should have strong hitting Pokemon, often accompanied by a Life Orb or Specs. There are other options for hitters so feel free to change anything you want ^^

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Thunder
- Giga Drain
- Sticky Web

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave

Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Volt Switch
 
Last edited:
Heavy Offense Ice ---> Low Tier

Mathcups:

Heavy Offense Ice mono -> Low

Sadly, ice has a huge amount of counters and rarely does well in the hands of types that are Super Effective on it. Steel types can usually wall ice to death while fighting will outspeed and KO. Yet if you play right, and use all your options, you can win against neutral types - even if they run stall.

In terms of diversity, ice has little to offer. Sure you have some titan's like Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Cloyster and Weavile to work with, but outside of that your choices for a Heavy Offense is limited.
Ice unfortunately suffers a great deal in this category due to, as Formerhope mentions, with little to no Resistances that Offensive play-styles depend on for survivability. Although it has Thick Fat Mamoswine, and Kyu-B, Sun Boosted Fire Attacks are just too powerful for them, while Bullet Punchers such as Scizor and Metagross can undisputedly tear through anything but Cloyster (if I'm not missing any other Resistors). However, Froslass can serve as a Fighting Immunity that can hit hard with Psychic, and a Rock pivot does exist somewhat in Bulky Variants of Mamoswine. Even then, however, Ice's relatively poor answer to Stealth Rock hinders what little it does have, and while Crygonal does exist as a good Rapid Spinner and a Special Attack absorber, it is also vulnerable to the above.

HO Ice can't be low tier and the fact it's the very first one you placed in that list means we're off to a bad start.
It has a positive match-up against dragon, flying and water, 3 dominant types.
It also has positive match-ups against electric, grass, ground and possibly ghost, psychic and poison as well.

Mono-water is seriously messed up by Abomasnow's Snow Warning (keep in mind that Aboma doesn't have to run its mega evolution, Scarf is still perfectly viable). Aboma and Kyu-B absolutely ravage entire mono water teams except Keldeo, who admittedly is tricky to play around.
Freeze Dry gives many Ice types a powerful weapon to use against mono-water and Dry Skin Jynx can use many of them as set-up bait. Overall the odds are in favor of mono Ice here.

Mono-dragon vs mono-ice is the usual revenge-kill fest with ice usually coming out on top thanks to Ice Shard. I'm not sure if Avalugg can fit into HO Ice (more on this later) but it single-handedly hard-walls every single physical dragon allowed here (Megazard X is not so it's not a concern). Let's not even get started on what scarfed Kyu-B can do against a team of dragons.

Mono Electric is plagued by serious movepool issues and their main STAB is resisted by the 3 best ice types: Kyu-B, Mamoswine and Aboma, while their best coverage move, HP Ice, is resisted by everything. Ice types are usually bulkier, so they can avoid a 2HKO most of the time, plus they have Ice Shard to bypass electric types' high speed. Two important electric types, Zapdos and Thundurus-I, are weak to Ice, which is huge.
Mamoswine can pretty much slaughter everything in mono-electric besides Rotom-C, who can't even scratch Kyurem and Aboma.
Overall a very easy win for mono-ice.

Mono-grass and ground don't really need much discussion since they're both very obvious positive match-ups for mono-ice. If we really need to elaborate, a surprise HP Fire (which every ice team should carry) deals with Ferrothorn, and Freeze Dry destroys the ground/water types.
Rotosect countered saying that Ice does indeed have good Matchups against Water, Dragon, and Flying, which is important since these are dominant Types. However, I have to dispute the Water Matchup myself, as Water has access to Kabutops, which, under Rain, decimates anything but Sashers. It can even get past those with Stealth Rocks, and pressure Crygonal before it can Rapid Spin. Although Abomsnow can Switch in to take Rain out, it doesnt like Switching into a Stone Edge, which practically forces you to sack it if you hope to clear the Rain, while the opponent can just send Politoed back in. Kabutops isn't the only Threat, to add- Balanced and Offensive Teams have Mega Gyarados, which can carry Iron Head if they can't just burst through you with DD. These Teams also have Scarf Keldeo, which outspeeds Scarf Mamoswine, while it can just tear through you if Froslass is down. These Pokes alone are enough to put Ice to a great disadvantage, and without a reliable way to stop Rain, Offensive Rain is the most threatening. But even then Balanced and Defensive Water Teams just can simply play around your Kyu-B's Fusion Bolts and Scald it in return. The only edge Ice really has is Frost Breath, but even that Move has limited users. Overall, I'd say Water still has an advantage.

As for Flying, Flying can play around Ice's STABs and Thunderbolt combo with its many Walls, with Skarm, Articuno, and Water Dual Types absorbing Ice STABs, while it can continuously play around Thunderbolts and Fusion Bolts with Zapdos, Lando-T, Thundy-T, and etc. But Sash Mamoswine does pressure the amount of times this can be done. However, every Mega Evo in Flying has some way to mess with Ice, with Zard X and Gyaraods-Mega the major ones, which can both Set Up in your face with DD and proceed to Sweep the Team. Zard-Y can clear your Hail, and nuke all snowcones with its Fire STABs. Even Aerodactyl-Mega can slam you with its hard hitting Rock STABs.

Dragon, I agree with: Ice Shard stops Offensive Threats while Goodra can't take Ice Attacks for long; however, opposing Bulky Kyu-B's will give you a rougher time than you think.

And,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there is no flying type in the entire game that can take more than one hit (Ice Beam or Fusion Bolt) from Choice Scarf Kyurem-B and none of them has strong enough priority to stop it from 6-0'ing the entire team. Mamoswine is one of the most reliable SR user in the game, and every flying type that attempts to use Defog will have to tank an Ice STAB. Mono-ice pretty much auto-wins against flying.
lol, I correct you, Ground/Flying can all take advantage of your Fusion Bolt lock in and can indeed take a hit- in fact, nothing at all. Also, Charizard-X would love to come in after a kill, and DD in your face. As for Ice Beam, plenty of Pokes can take an Ice Beam- some include Skarm, Gyaraods, Mantine, Charizard and it's Megas, Megados, and etc. What Flying fears most is s Expert Belt Bulky Kyurem, and even then its too slow to apply pressure.

Effectiveness:

Formerhope also mentions that the play-style itself suffers against Defensive Teams such as Stall, which is important in terms of Effectiveness. However, Ice excells in pressuring these Teams with its fantastic Ice+Electric or Ice/Ground Combos, and make a great Offensive Type in general. I'd say HO Ice can be extremely Threatening to Teams it has a Matchup against, which leads me to deem it Effective. However,

Versatility:

Ice is extremely limited in it's lineup options- Crygonal, Mamoswine, Froslass, Weavile, Abomsnow, and a filler is all that comes to mind for Ice Offense. That said,

HO Ice has too few options and, although an Effective user of the play-style, has too few Matchups to make use of that potential.






 
I would like to nominate Balanced Fairy for Mid tier

Firstly the bad points, namely that fairy types are very limited in viable choices, and general lack of defensive pokes.

For the first point, the most viable Fairies include Klefki, Mawile, (mega) Gardevoir, Sylveon, Florges, Granbull, Azumarill, Togekiss and Clefable (perhaps Whimsicott?). This limited number means that all fairy teams are rather similar. Hands down, they will either have Kefki and/or Mawile, both of which are very predictable, the former being the only fairy typed spiker and the latter will nearly always carry a mega stone. They are also the only pokes that are immune to poison as well as neutral to steel. Azumarill is also pretty much on every fairy team due to its neutrality to steel and having a core physically damaging presence.

Additionally all these pokemon are also slow. The Fastest Offensive pokemon without scarf is limited to Mega Gardevoir at a base 100 speed which is pretty...Meh, and thus relies on bulky pokes for attacking along with Prankster support from Klefki/Whimsicott making fairy teams very one-dimensional in that sense.

As shown, many of these pokemon have fairly poor physical defense, with the best of the bunch being Klefki due to its typing and prankster support, Mawile for the same typing and Granbull due to intimidate. And all these pokes have no recovery options, with the former two also weak to Earthquake and common fire attacks.

However, in the hands of an experienced battler, there is much to work with. Fairy as a type is great: resisting common Dark and fighting typed attacks (and bugs) and being immune to Dragon attacks. Only Fire, poison and steel resist Fairy, nothing is immune, and they're only weak to Poison and Steel, which puts their type disadvantage to only 3 types out of 18 types. Special tanks and walls are abundant. Wish support is plenty, which can work with dual intimidate from Granbull and pre-Mega'd Mawile and work around the lack of defence, and while very slow, the few physical fairies can hit pretty damn HARD when needed (base 120 attack Granbull, Huge power Azumarrill and Mega Mawile) and special attackers are no slouches either, even the special walls like Sylveon, Clefable and Florges. The balanced playstyle with faries involved utilizing paralysis to the full which with Klefki/Whimsicott, is very achievable. And then there's Togekiss, who was born the abuse parahax.

tl;dr - Fairies can't be full stall or Hyper Offense any time soon, but with a patient careful and reserved playstyle to whittle down the opponent, they can be very deadly in their own right but slow speed and lack of variety of secondary types and variation, and thus being very predictable prevent high tier status
 
I believe that fairy mono is either on the upper side of mid tier, or the lower side of high. While it might not have the highest versatility, the pokemon it does have can be amazing. Anyone who's been up against a tank Clefable as the last pokemon knows how irritating it is to have your greatest attacker, do a tiny fraction of damage and knowing you can't boost your own because he's packing unaware. Or you go to toxic Clefable and he has magic guard. Not to mention, Sylveon is great as a bulky sweeper with 120 base damage, 100% accuracy stab moves (Hyper voice + pixilate).

Now the definition of a high tier monotype is: "Monotype play-styles with a great amount of favorable Matchups and variety, while also overcoming their Weaknesses without relying on gimmicks."

While it doesn't cover the "great amount of variety", it usually has a fairly favorable match up against most opponents. It can be a little bit gimmicky at times, but a fairy monotype can usually beat out poison and steel mono's with things like Gardevior and Togekiss. Which with support and prediction, can be utilized to take on the types who oppose you. While you may be slow, fairy and poison mono's often are pretty slow as well. Not to mention, usually most steel monotypes won't pack a large amount of steel typed moves unlike say, a fire mono. Now with all that said, Fairy's aren't anywhere near auto win for poison and steel, but you do have a fairly decent chance to win in those match ups.
So it's a really good question of where should fairy stand. It does use gimmicks often and it's pool of usable pokemon is fairly small at the moment. But yet it usually has favorable match ups a good 50-60% of the time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top