OU Monotype Viability Rankings

[Anttya]

Nominating Balanced Dark for High Tier

Dark has a large selection of very strong pokemon to choose from, with great type and role diversity and many dual-type combinations to work around its weaknesses.
It has offensive juggernauts like mega ttar and bisharp. Wallbreakers like crawdaunt, weavile, and hydreigon. Defensive pokemon like mandibuzz and scrafty. Stallers like sableye and umbreon. SR setters and removers in ttar, krookodile, bisharp, mandibuzz, honchkrow, and shiftry. Dark type has everything you need to make a great balanced team.

It's got plenty of type combinations and coverage available to beat types that it would otherwise have a field day with it. Mandibuzz and sableye are neutral to bug and can cripple set up sweepers such as volcarona and scizor, while ttar can stone edge and hydreigon can burn everything. Sableye single-handedly blocks a large amount of fighting's strongest pokemon with priority will-o-wisp and recover to stall them out and foul play to punish them if they decide to boost. Greninja can run extrasensory to become resistant to fighting and hit them back SE. Mandibuzz and drapion are also neutral to fighting.
Dark does have a significant problem against mono fairy however, with the biggest problems being mega mawile and azumarill. Mega mawile can OHKO almost everything dark has and its only chance against it is to hit it with a faster fire/ground move. Resisting sucker punch helps though.
Azumarill is also a huge problem as not much on a dark team has any electric/grass coverage besides things like grass knot (which doesn't hurt azumarill very hard anyway) and mediocre pokemon such as cacturne.
Speaking of which, mono dark also has problems against mono water as a huge number of dark pokemon are hit SE by either water or ice, whereas dark usually lacks the coverage moves to hit them back hard and has to rely on taking advantage of dual-typed waters' second types. Most of the dark pokemon neutral to water/ice are also relatively frail, limiting defensive switch-ins. Ttar can help to get rid of opposing rain but hates strong hydro pumps and giga drains.

Even with these problems, balanced dark has enough great pokemon of varying types and styles to give the player a strong team that is ready to take on any challenge.

(Sorry if I missed any significant threats or whatever -- I mostly play a different 3v3 mono meta with legendaries banned so I don't have much experience with showdown's ladder)

Matchups:


Dark is a great type when used right, but it just doesn't seem to make it to High Tier. Yes, you have plenty of options, but it only seems to have a good matchup with one dominant type: Psychic. Even so, Psychic has Mega Gardevoir which can break down the most popular Dark core (Umbreon, Sableye, Mandibuzz.)

-Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 476-564 (112.2 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 428-506 (140.7 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As an avid Dark user, I agree with your points, but another thing that’s preventing Dark from being High Tier is because of Talonflame ban. When Talonflame was banned to bring more diversity, it meant increasing the usage of Bug and Fighting types. If you have a balanced Dark team, it should look something like this: Umbreon (Wish Passer) Mandibuzz (Obvious reasons) Sableye (Priority Taunt + Burns) Hydreigon (For those Steels) Bisharp (Knock Off support) Greninja (Fast sweeper). Already, I can already see Volcarona making your life miserable when it sets up +1. If you have Crawdaunt / Sharpdeo, then no, but I hardly see those 2 in balanced Dark. Yanmega could also be a potential problem, because if you accumulate enough speed boosts, Greninja can’t outspeed it. Life Orb Bug Buzz hits hard. Mega-Heracross could be a problem if paired up with Swords Dance Scolipede. With enough attack boosts, it can rip apart Dark teams with a combo of Arm Thrust and Pin Missile.

I also agree with you as Fairy being a problem for Dark. However, Bisharp / Drapion’s a good solution to most Fairy Pokemon since they are generally slow, and weak on the physical spectrum. And again, Gard wrecks with Hyper Voice.

But Fighting gives Dark the most trouble. Yes, you can burn everything you want, but then Keldeo and Conkeldurr come in. Keldeo doesn’t mind burns, and can hit hard with Surf + Secret Sword. It’s even worse if Keldeo forces a switch, and gets a sub up. Conkeldurr can be handled if played correctly. If you stick with Sableye, Conk shouldn’t be able to gain any of its health back. You will lose your item (Knock Off), but it’s a good trade off. Another problem would be Infernape (esp the Wallbreaker Infernape with Fire Blast, Close Combat, Grass Knot, Mach Punch) since it’s immune to burns, but it also has the power to rip apart walls bar Mandibuzz.

When Dark is facing Water, you have to save Umbreon. Umbreon is able to Wish + Toxic Stall a majority of the Pokemon to death with its scary defenses (95/110/130). A big problem would be Crocune since it shrugs off attacks, while Resting off Toxics. When it’s Dark vs Swift Swim, Dark fares pretty well. Tyranitar can change the weather, and Pursuit trap Politoed. As I said before, Umbreon shrugs off non-super effective moves, while Mandibuzz tanks Waterfalls. Yes, you do need to predict a little because of Stone Edge, but what’s Pokemon if you don’t have to predict?


Effectiveness:


When used right, it’s a total monster. Unfortunately, Dark suffers when vsing Fire since it can’t burn anything, and Charizard Y’s a great wallbreaker. Also, because of the sun, Greninja isn’t as helpful. You could put Tyranitar in and remove the Sun, but 90% of Charizard’s carry Focus Blast which 1HKOs


252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 520-612 (128.7 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Dark also suffers vs Steel, unless if you have a Life Orb Hydregon. Even so, Pokemon like Durant + Scizor can wear it down with X-Scissor + Bullet Punch and eventually kill it. Aegislash can also tank a Dark Pulse (Depending on the spread) and KO right back with Sacred Sword. After that, Steel has a easy time with Dark.

You already know how Dark fares vs Fairy, Bug + Fighting.


Versaille:


Dark has plenty of options, from Tyranitar, to Mandibuzz. If you pick the right team, you can easily cover all of your weaknesses, but unfortunately:


Balanced Dark is easily countered by top tier threats, making it hard to use. Yes, you have the Pokemon to make a good and effective team, you just don’t have enough good matchups.
Sorry if I missed anything, if so, tell me, and I'll add it on

 

[Former]

Matchups:


Dark is a great type when used right, but it just doesn't seem to make it to High Tier. Yes, you have plenty of options, but it only seems to have a good matchup with one dominant type: Psychic. Even so, Psychic has Mega Gardevoir which can break down the most popular Dark core (Umbreon, Sableye, Mandibuzz.)

-Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 476-564 (112.2 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 428-506 (140.7 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As an avid Dark user, I agree with your points, but another thing that’s preventing Dark from being High Tier is because of Talonflame ban. When Talonflame was banned to bring more diversity, it meant increasing the usage of Bug and Fighting types. If you have a balanced Dark team, it should look something like this: Umbreon (Wish Passer) Mandibuzz (Obvious reasons) Sableye (Priority Taunt + Burns) Hydreigon (For those Steels) Bisharp (Knock Off support) Greninja (Fast sweeper). Already, I can already see Volcarona making your life miserable when it sets up +1. If you have Crawdaunt / Sharpdeo, then no, but I hardly see those 2 in balanced Dark. Yanmega could also be a potential problem, because if you accumulate enough speed boosts, Greninja can’t outspeed it. Life Orb Bug Buzz hits hard. Mega-Heracross could be a problem if paired up with Swords Dance Scolipede. With enough attack boosts, it can rip apart Dark teams with a combo of Arm Thrust and Pin Missile.

I also agree with you as Fairy being a problem for Dark. However, Bisharp / Drapion’s a good solution to most Fairy Pokemon since they are generally slow, and weak on the physical spectrum. And again, Gard wrecks with Hyper Voice.

But Fighting gives Dark the most trouble. Yes, you can burn everything you want, but then Keldeo and Conkeldurr come in. Keldeo doesn’t mind burns, and can hit hard with Surf + Secret Sword. It’s even worse if Keldeo forces a switch, and gets a sub up. Conkeldurr can be handled if played correctly. If you stick with Sableye, Conk shouldn’t be able to gain any of its health back. You will lose your item (Knock Off), but it’s a good trade off. Another problem would be Infernape (esp the Wallbreaker Infernape with Fire Blast, Close Combat, Grass Knot, Mach Punch) since it’s immune to burns, but it also has the power to rip apart walls bar Mandibuzz.

When Dark is facing Water, you have to save Umbreon. Umbreon is able to Wish + Toxic Stall a majority of the Pokemon to death with its scary defenses (95/110/130). A big problem would be Crocune since it shrugs off attacks, while Resting off Toxics. When it’s Dark vs Swift Swim, Dark fares pretty well. Tyranitar can change the weather, and Pursuit trap Politoed. As I said before, Umbreon shrugs off non-super effective moves, while Mandibuzz tanks Waterfalls. Yes, you do need to predict a little because of Stone Edge, but what’s Pokemon if you don’t have to predict?


Effectiveness:


When used right, it’s a total monster. Unfortunately, Dark suffers when vsing Fire since it can’t burn anything, and Charizard Y’s a great wallbreaker. Also, because of the sun, Greninja isn’t as helpful. You could put Tyranitar in and remove the Sun, but 90% of Charizard’s carry Focus Blast which 1HKOs


252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 520-612 (128.7 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Dark also suffers vs Steel, unless if you have a Life Orb Hydregon. Even so, Pokemon like Durant + Scizor can wear it down with X-Scissor + Bullet Punch and eventually kill it. Aegislash can also tank a Dark Pulse (Depending on the spread) and KO right back with Sacred Sword. After that, Steel has a easy time with Dark.

You already know how Dark fares vs Fairy, Bug + Fighting.


Versaille:


Dark has plenty of options, from Tyranitar, to Mandibuzz. If you pick the right team, you can easily cover all of your weaknesses, but unfortunately:


Balanced Dark is easily countered by top tier threats, making it hard to use. Yes, you have the Pokemon to make a good and effective team, you just don’t have enough good matchups.
Sorry if I missed anything, if so, tell me, and I'll add it on

I agree with this. While Dark is a great monotype, the resurgence of fighting/bugs types really puts a damper on them. Furthermore, there is the new fairy type to contend with. While you may have Bisharp to counter that, a togekiss coming in can OHKO you with Aura Sphere. I would say balanced Dark fits nicely into Mid tier. But I wouldn't go as far to say it's high tier material.

 

[Dirpz]

I agree with this. While Dark is a great monotype, the resurgence of fighting/bugs types really puts a damper on them. Furthermore, there is the new fairy type to contend with. While you may have Bisharp to counter that, a togekiss coming in can OHKO you with Aura Sphere. I would say balanced Dark fits nicely into Mid tier. But I wouldn't go as far to say it's high tier material.

Former I am going to have to disagree with you there, here is why Mandibuzz it just walls everything

For Bug

Vs Heracross
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 124-146 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 105-124 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Scizor-Mega
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 84-100 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 112-132 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- 12% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Durant
252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 202-238 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 152-180 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 126-148 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Vs Pinsir-Mega
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 75-88 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 114-135 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- 37.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 115-136 (27.1 - 32%) -- 49.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 153-180 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Scoilpede
4 Atk Scolipede Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 78-92 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 91-108 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Escavalier
252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 103-123 (24.2 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 154-183 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-154 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 169-199 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

There is two Physical Bugs I see Viable vs Mandibuzz, and thats Armaldo, and Crustle, plus a mega

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk Armaldo X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 242-288 (57 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-218 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has the stab for rock type moves, and flinch chance on rock slide the better option

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 150-186 (35.3 - 43.8%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 81-96 (19.1 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 114-135 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is without the sturdy, shell smashing, white herb

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 404-476 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 306-366 (72.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 160-190 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Shell smash helps, but Overall Armaldo is a better option.

There is a third option but it takes up a mega slot

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 280-330 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 210-245 (49.5 - 57.7%) -- approx. 63.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 196-232 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

For Fighting
I don't really play fighting that much, I know what people run on it

Vs Hawlucha
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-153 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 109-129 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 85-101 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO

Vs Infernape
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 62-74 (14.6 - 17.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-182 (36 - 42.9%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 88-104 (30 - 35.4%) -- 26.6% chance to 3HKO

Vs Lucario
252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 42-49 (9.9 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Lucario is kind of wierd when it comes to this because of Justified getting +1 per foul play
+1 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-73 (14.3 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Vs Breloom
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 90-107 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 179-213 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Overcoat wrecks Spore Technician Breloom

If it gets the SD boost its a lot harder to deal with
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 177-211 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 356-421 (83.9 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 186-220 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Conkeldurr
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 134-158 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 54-64 (12.7 - 15%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 100-118 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 93-111 (22.4 - 26.8%) -- 30.6% chance to 4HKO

Vs Mega Medicham
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 51-61 (12 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 144-169 (33.9 - 39.8%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 51-61 (12 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 148-175 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Hitmonlee
252+ Atk Hitmonlee Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Normal Gem Hitmonlee Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 41-49 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hitmonlee Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 18.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 134-158 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Counters for Fighting

Vs Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 228-270 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 170-204 (40 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-72 (14.3 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-72 (14.3 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery


The best counter because justified makes foul play help and not hinder Terrakions ability to sweep

Vs Machamp
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 34-41 (8 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-150 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 102-121 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- 22.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

If your gonna ask why Machamp is down here, its because of its abilities, guts it gets more powered up with toxics that mandibuzz throws at it
And No Guard which lets Stone edge, and Dynamic Punch Perfect accuracy means you can get the confuse, and Mandibuzz can hit back

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 39-47 (9.1 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 68-81 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-229 (45.2 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mienshao, is another decent counter to mandibuzz, hitting it back hard


The problem is this is all for Mandibuzz, there is another called Sabeyle

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 375-440 (123.3 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs Machamp
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These calcs maybe weird because it seems it cant take the hits, but it has three things that make it perfect with Mandibuzz, Priority Burn, Priority Recover, and a fighting type immunity

Now look at these calcs after Sableye gets off the burn

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk burned Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk burned Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Terrakion
252 Atk burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 26.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk burned Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 125-145 (41.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Machamp
252+ Atk burned Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 75-89 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb burned Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at the difference it makes, its Insane, This is why Im nominating
Balanced Dark > High Tier
Bulky Dark > High Tier

 

[Pyritie]

Former I am going to have to disagree with you there, here is why Mandibuzz it just walls everything

For Bug

Vs Heracross
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 124-146 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 105-124 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Scizor-Mega
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 84-100 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 112-132 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- 12% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Durant
252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 202-238 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 152-180 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 126-148 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Vs Pinsir-Mega
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 75-88 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 114-135 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- 37.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 115-136 (27.1 - 32%) -- 49.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 153-180 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Scoilpede
4 Atk Scolipede Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 78-92 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 91-108 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Escavalier
252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 103-123 (24.2 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 154-183 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-154 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 169-199 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

There is two Physical Bugs I see Viable vs Mandibuzz, and thats Armaldo, and Crustle, plus a mega

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk Armaldo X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 242-288 (57 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-218 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has the stab for rock type moves, and flinch chance on rock slide the better option

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 150-186 (35.3 - 43.8%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 81-96 (19.1 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 114-135 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is without the sturdy, shell smashing, white herb

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 404-476 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 306-366 (72.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 160-190 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Shell smash helps, but Overall Armaldo is a better option.

There is a third option but it takes up a mega slot

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 280-330 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 210-245 (49.5 - 57.7%) -- approx. 63.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 196-232 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

For Fighting
I don't really play fighting that much, I know what people run on it

Vs Hawlucha
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-153 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 109-129 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 85-101 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO

Vs Infernape
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 62-74 (14.6 - 17.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-182 (36 - 42.9%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 88-104 (30 - 35.4%) -- 26.6% chance to 3HKO

Vs Lucario
252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 42-49 (9.9 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Lucario is kind of wierd when it comes to this because of Justified getting +1 per foul play
+1 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-73 (14.3 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Vs Breloom
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 90-107 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 179-213 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Overcoat wrecks Spore Technician Breloom

If it gets the SD boost its a lot harder to deal with
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 177-211 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 356-421 (83.9 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 186-220 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Conkeldurr
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 134-158 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 54-64 (12.7 - 15%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 100-118 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 93-111 (22.4 - 26.8%) -- 30.6% chance to 4HKO

Vs Mega Medicham
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 51-61 (12 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 144-169 (33.9 - 39.8%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 51-61 (12 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 148-175 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Hitmonlee
252+ Atk Hitmonlee Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Normal Gem Hitmonlee Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 41-49 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hitmonlee Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 18.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 134-158 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Counters for Fighting

Vs Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 228-270 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 170-204 (40 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-72 (14.3 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-72 (14.3 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery


The best counter because justified makes foul play help and not hinder Terrakions ability to sweep

Vs Machamp
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 34-41 (8 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-150 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 102-121 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- 22.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

If your gonna ask why Machamp is down here, its because of its abilities, guts it gets more powered up with toxics that mandibuzz throws at it
And No Guard which lets Stone edge, and Dynamic Punch Perfect accuracy means you can get the confuse, and Mandibuzz can hit back

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 39-47 (9.1 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 68-81 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-229 (45.2 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mienshao, is another decent counter to mandibuzz, hitting it back hard


The problem is this is all for Mandibuzz, there is another called Sabeyle

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 375-440 (123.3 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs Machamp
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These calcs maybe weird because it seems it cant take the hits, but it has three things that make it perfect with Mandibuzz, Priority Burn, Priority Recover, and a fighting type immunity

Now look at these calcs after Sableye gets off the burn

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk burned Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Crustle
252+ Atk burned Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Terrakion
252 Atk burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 26.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk burned Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 125-145 (41.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Machamp
252+ Atk burned Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 75-89 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb burned Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at the difference it makes, its Insane, This is why Im nominating
Balanced Dark > High Tier
Bulky Dark > High Tier

To add to this, mandibuzz has other options than just foul play for damage:
1) Brave bird. Much like how skarmory runs it, mandibuzz can too and seriously dent things that resist Foul Play. For example:

4 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 328-388 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO / guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 242-288 (82.5 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Mandibuzz Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 204-240 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

2) Stall until a miss. A ton of those calcs Dirpz posted rely on less than 100% accurate moves and if they're only doing 50% each turn, just keep roosting until they miss, then you've got a free turn to do whatever you want. And if they use a contact move instead, rocky helmet can help with that.

3) Stall with team support. Toxic, burn, hell even sandstorm, whatever. Very little can OHKO mandibuzz and even if she's taking a bit over 50% per turn, this can usually be enough to build up enough chip damage for another teammate to finish it off later.

JustAMan: physically defensive sableye takes 50-60% from conk's knock off once then 40% from then on, while burned. Ice punch does max 48% while burned. Sableye can't switch in but in a 1v1 situation sableye wins
(why would you use specially defensive sableye when its whole purpose is to neuter most physical attackers by switching in and burning them?)

 

[Sae]

I'd like to nominate balanced Monowater for High tier.

With Water's plethora of mons that can either outright sweep with stuff like Manaphy, Greninja, and Keldeo to it's more defensive hazards with Tentacruel and Swampert, and Empoleon, to even just tank and stallers with Slowbro and Suicune, balanced monowater makes use of all of Water types versatility and makes it a strong threat.

For now though I'm just going to post some significant damage calcs I've found. If anybody really wants me to get into an argument about Water not being able to take hits from its plethora of tanks/walls I question your sanity. I'll just mention the most common ones though now: Lanturn, Quagsire, Gastrodon, Crocune, Slowbro, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Empoleon. Some are either just tanks and just damage in return, or you could just win PP stall with Crocune.

Manaphy:

Manaphy having its natural bulk in flat 100 base stats all around doesn't need to always rely on a bulky variant. With the great setup move Tail Glow, Manaphy can take a couple neutral or even super effective hits from tanks and still proceed to sweep or chip the opponent's team. Also unlike most water types, it has access to Energy Ball and Grass Knot which allows it to get past Storm Drain Gastrodon and other bulky waters with Water immunity abilities.

• Against Specially Defensive Zapdos:
  • +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 316-372 (82.2 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 4 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 210-248 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • This means that Manaphy can get a free Tail Glow even after SR and still proceed to either kill the Zapdos after SR or let another mon take over when it's no longer a threat. This is especially good since Zapdos is one of the tankier Electric types that Water finds annoying.
• Against physically defensive Mega Venusaur:
  • +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 174-206 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
    
  • 4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • Okay you might be wondering the significance of this calc but please bear with me. For water, Mega Venusaur is one of the major threats against them maybe even the number one threat period. In this calc, if Manaphy has a Tail Glow boost already, it can proceed to deliver significant damage. Mega Vensaur can then deliver a Giga Drain which will yes restore its health. However, on the second turn if Manaphy cannot somehow kill the Mega Venusaur after the Giga Drain recovery, the next Giga Drain wouldn't recover as much health since Manaphy was already damaged prior. This again allows your next mon to cover for Manaphy's downfall.
  • This calc is only relevant depending if Mega Venusaur does not have Sleep Powder or has already used it on one of your other mons.
• Against specially defensive Jellicent:
  • +3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • 4 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 76-90 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • This just provides another reason why it can stop some of its tankier brethren. Normally not seen in Water due to a number of other tanks, Jellicent is commonly found on Ghost teams which love to tank Water teams with its partner in crime Trevenant. After a +3 it easily destroys Jellicent, while Jellicent can only either A) Taunt, B) Wil-o-Wisp, or C) proceed to Shadow Ball. Of course Jellicent could also probably switch, but a free +3 Tail Glow boost lets it hit Trevenant hard enough. Speaking of which
• Against specially defensive Trevenant:
  • +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 334-394 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    
  • 4 Atk Trevenant Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • This one might be a bit more annoying to deal with if Manaphy hasn't already setup. After a +3 Manaphy can either outright kill the tree, or it can prevent Trevenant from using a Substitute for SubSeed shenanigans. Trevenant can only hit back with Horn Leech which won't kill unless it gets a crit.
  • If Trevenant is already under a sub, then this method does not work as it can either Horn Leech from under the Sub or Leech Seed stall with Sitrus Berry while you need a turn to setup your Tail Glow. Only use this method during a 1 v 1 situation or a situation with an advantage.
• Against Aegislash:
  • +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 214-253 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • +2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    
  • Okay so the most common scenario you'll face with Aegislash is switching in after it has picked off one of your mons. In this scenario, Manaphy easily gets a free boost when either A) it King's Shield or B) predicts that and attacks, or C) uses Swords Dance (which is just stupid when your in Blade form and have King's Shield). This means you get a free Tail Glow and can proceed to attack the following turn. The most common scenario is King's Shield so it's a free +3 after which you can just start smashing away with Surf. If it's a Shadow Ball followed by a King's Shield from a predict, then Manaphy probably would die but it would get a huge amount of damage first. The third option I'm not even going to discuss anymore.

Keldeo:

Well everyone already knows the destructive power of Keldeo, so I don't think too many calcs are necessary. But here's one that stands out to me among others after Choice Specs/+1 from a CM.

• Against standard Mega Mawile:
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 279-328 (91.7 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    
  • 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 90-106 (27.8 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    
  • Yeah it has a 50% chance to OHKO which is significant. Maybe add a Stealth Rock for seemingly insignificant damage but it at least makes your coin flip a little bit more favorable towards you. I posted the damage for Sucker Punch cause if the Mega Mawhile already has taken over 91.7% of damage then it might be used as a last ditch effort to kill. Obviously Play Rough would be murder on Keldeo but that's what you get for sending a Fighting type against a fairy xp.
• Against Physically Defensive Ferrothorn:
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 248-294 (70.4 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    
    
  • 4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 270-320 (83.5 - 99%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    
  • Keldeo is probably the only mon for water that can deal with Ferrothorn. Although Ferrothorn might win the war if it is physically defensive, it would lose overall cause again another water mon can take it down now. This isn't even factoring if the Ferrothorn is maybe a Curse variant with no Def EV's or even a specially defensive variant.
  • Please note that if you are running Specs you might face the ever so annoying FerroAegi core for Steel types. It's probably best if you let a tankier mon do chip damage to both first.

-Like I said earlier if you really want me to put calcs about walls I'll edit this post or make another one.


Anyway time to talk about some disadvantages of balanced water.

• It can face stiff competition from its SS hyper offensive counterpart. There are MonoWater teams that can beat SS but they are albeit rare since normally SS will win this matchup thanks to the big 3 SS users but mainly Ludicolo in particular. Choice Specs variant absolutely wrecks through most walls except maybe Tentacruel and even if you setup CM from either your Slowbro or Suicune (preferably Crocune), Politoed's Perish Song will cause some serious pressure and force switches. Honestly though, with Azumarill and Manaphy/Keldeo, the only significant threat from SS is the Ludicolo since the other mons can be handled relatively easy compared to the Ludicolo. However, a specially defensive Lanturn (I'm not posting damage calcs for that since it's one of those mons that have different EV spreads depending on tier and team - see differences in UU and RU for 5th gen if you want to know what I mean by that; both of these don't even utilize max special def variant too).
• It finds battles with Electric types to be very annoying. Thundurus-T and Mega Ampharos just rain down destruction among other things. Also Galvantula's coverage in Thunder and Giga Drain/Energy Ball + Sticky Web is probably one of the most annoying things ever when taking it down. Empoleon can tank a Thunder though from Galvantula even if physically defensive if Galvant is running sash. It can also proceed to defog or setup SR but preferably Defog.
  • 252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Empoleon: 230-272 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• Also due to Galvantula, a battle with Monobug can become a chore since you have to deal with Sticky Web still.
• Grass is also something Water does not like. In particular a notable threat is Choice Scarf Breloom since with Bullet Seed it can potentially OHKO most mons in water type or it can be a pain with fast Sporing. It's Sash counterpart while annoying isn't as hard to deal with. The one mon here who really helps is Tentacruel being able to take neutral hits from Bullet Seed and absolutely wall Mach Punches. Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur together on the same team also really hampers Monowater since Keldeo will being facing an uphill battle trying to destroy Ferrothorn while avoiding Mega Venusaur. I guess I should mention that Sap Sipper Azumarill is an option, but I personally don't like it since it loses out on so much power that Huge Power provides. Most common "checks" to Mega Venusaur are Starmie and Greninja who have Psychic and Extrasensory respectively, but they still don't appreciate having to hit a Mega Venusaur and not killing it in one go.
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    
  • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    
  • In Greninja's case, even a modest specs Extrasensory has a terrible probability to kill it. Starmie handle it a little bit better with Timid Specs, but even then you'd still want prior damage.
• Ironically, an inexperienced balanced water user ends up losing to Monofire. Thanks to Drought Solar Beams, an unprepared trainer would be unable to handle the onslaught even if you have your tanks in Tentacruel and Lanturn. Your best bet is the Tentacruel, but Lanturn from full health can tank one Solar Beam and proceed to Volt Switch or Thunder Wave MegaY or any other problematic mon from there. However, once you get experienced enough with a good balanced water team, fire becomes no problem as it should be.
• Monoflying is one of those teams that balanced water faces an uphill battle. Most flying types will outrun your Pokes with only Keldeo, Starmie, and Greninja outrunning the base 101 and below flying types. Even then HO Flying has great overwhelming power and commonly use Thundurus-T for its Volt Absorb capabilities and Specially Defensive Zapdos. Setting up SR is very important, but with some teams carrying two Defoggers, this becomes quite the chore to play around.
  • Obligatory mention must be said about my ace Pokemon Crocune which can sometimes setup on even a Specially Defensive Zapdos. Not an ideal solution (especially for me who gets a lot of SleepTalk fails early in the match).
• Storm Drain, Water Absorb, and Dry Skin are common counter measures used against water. This might be annoying since the defensive mons would be normally MonoAttacking with Scald at best.
• Dragon might be problematic depending on the team being used since most of Monowater is outrun by Dragons. Also Dragon should have favorable matchup in the first place, but Water has the means to deal with them but just make sure to do so when Teambuilding.
• Monopoison can be a very big problem since it's immune to Toxic/Toxic Spikes and has Mega Venusaur and Toxicroak available to tank water. Most teams don't carry both which makes it easier for Monowater, but both of these mons alone can hinder your chance at winning. Other than that Poison should be relatively easy to stop the sweep. Clear Smog/Haze Tentacruel can stop BP chain so it's really just those two mons.
  • Please note that this is why HP Flying Keldeo is probably the most preferred Hidden Power on Keldeo. Like in my example with Mega Venusaur vs Manaphy, HP Flying allows it to cleanup and the same to Toxicroak. If you're wondering why not HP Psychic, it's because, if I remember correctly, it loses an IV in speed unlike Flying so Flying is preferable.

Advantages:

• Access to Scald on almost every mon is so vital for this kind of team allowing sweepers to perform their jobs and letting tanks do what they love doing best.
• It easily crushes Rock, Fire, and Ground which is good since you don't want to lose against a favorable matchup in the first place.
• Balanced water usually has a party against Dark. Azumarill and Keldeo do absolute murder to Dark teams offensively while your standard tanks can either setup CM/other boost or proceed to setup some hazards. Heal Bell and Rest bulky mons make Mandibuzz not a problem to deal with and you can always just Scald burn everything as a backup. Also Slowbro, Suicune, and other walls prevent stuff like Moxie Krookodile or Moxie Honchkrow from sweeping your team. Taunt on Sableye might be annoying, but it is very easy to play around it.
• In a game with stall, Water is usually the winner thanks to their great walls and tanks. Crocune in particular is notable for abusing Pressure tactics on opponents.
• It can also crush Steel which is one of the most used/high tiered types out there right now. Scald burn for days, sweep, or even just wall the hell out of them. Yeah Water has advantage over this common type.

Neutrality:

• Against every other type not mentioned it has a pretty neutral matchup that can be stacked towards Water's favor if it ends up being a stalling contest.
• Normal is one thing I will mention since it's one of those types that water significantly varies. Keldeo absolutely destroys them but if Keldeo is gone and there's no Knock Off users in Tentacruel or Azumarill, it'll be a long stall match. Pory-2 in particular might be annoying in stall thanks to Toxic/Discharge. Then again Mononormal normally walls SS over balanced water so it's not to big a deal.

Anyway yeah monowater can stand toe-to-toe with most types and come out on top. It has a plethora of sweepers, tanks, hazard supporters, stallers, etc. making it the perfect type for versatility. So again I'd like to nominate for high tier thanks to this versatility.

 

[Former]

I'm not going to quote that post since it's so massive. But there's a critical flaw to your assessment, you paired a physical wall against physical attackers. Oh boy, wonder who's going to win that challenge. I don't think anybody is doubting that Mandibuzz is an amazing physical wall. He still does some amazing things against non physical of course but...
252+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 154-183 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Note: This doesn't take into account the 50% chance to raise SpA. So it may be closer to a 2HKO if you're either lucky, or already had the boost.)

252 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 356-420 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, if Crustle gets a Shell Smash in....
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 404-476 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah, dark mono's that pack Mandibuzz are going to give teams with major focus on physical attacking nightmares. There's no doubt. However there's no way he's going to carry the team all the way against those teams.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Update:
​

As the co-creators of this Thread, I am enabling Anttya (Anttyaz), Rorsarch (Crazy Horse), and GodChef the option to Update the Thread. As outstanding and knowledgeable members of the Community in their own respects, I trust that this will be fine with you guys. Again, we are working together as a Community, and all we're doing is guiding the discussion and updating the OP.

Thank you all for participating!

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Former I am going to have to disagree with you there, here is why Mandibuzz it just walls everything

For Bug

Vs Heracross
252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 124-146 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 105-124 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Scizor-Mega
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 84-100 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 112-132 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- 12% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Durant
252 Atk Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 202-238 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 152-180 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- 93.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 126-148 (48.8 - 57.3%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Vs Pinsir-Mega
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 75-88 (17.6 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 114-135 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- 37.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 115-136 (27.1 - 32%) -- 49.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 153-180 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Scoilpede
4 Atk Scolipede Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 78-92 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 91-108 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Escavalier
252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 103-123 (24.2 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 154-183 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Escavalier Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-154 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 169-199 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

There is two Physical Bugs I see Viable vs Mandibuzz, and thats Armaldo, and Crustle, plus a mega

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk Armaldo X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 242-288 (57 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-218 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It has the stab for rock type moves, and flinch chance on rock slide the better option

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 204-240 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 150-186 (35.3 - 43.8%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 81-96 (19.1 - 22.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crustle: 114-135 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is without the sturdy, shell smashing, white herb

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 404-476 (95.2 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 306-366 (72.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Crustle X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 160-190 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The Shell smash helps, but Overall Armaldo is a better option.

There is a third option but it takes up a mega slot

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 280-330 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 210-245 (49.5 - 57.7%) -- approx. 63.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 196-232 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

For Fighting
I don't really play fighting that much, I know what people run on it

Vs Hawlucha
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-153 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 109-129 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 85-101 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO

Vs Infernape
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 62-74 (14.6 - 17.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-182 (36 - 42.9%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 172-203 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 88-104 (30 - 35.4%) -- 26.6% chance to 3HKO

Vs Lucario
252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 42-49 (9.9 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

Lucario is kind of wierd when it comes to this because of Justified getting +1 per foul play
+1 252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-73 (14.3 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Vs Breloom
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 90-107 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 179-213 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Overcoat wrecks Spore Technician Breloom

If it gets the SD boost its a lot harder to deal with
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 177-211 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 356-421 (83.9 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 186-220 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Conkeldurr
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 134-158 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 54-64 (12.7 - 15%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 100-118 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 93-111 (22.4 - 26.8%) -- 30.6% chance to 4HKO

Vs Mega Medicham
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-226 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 51-61 (12 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 144-169 (33.9 - 39.8%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 51-61 (12 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 148-175 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Hitmonlee
252+ Atk Hitmonlee Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.2 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Normal Gem Hitmonlee Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 41-49 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36 - 42.6%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hitmonlee Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 18.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 134-158 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Counters for Fighting

Vs Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 228-270 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 170-204 (40 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-72 (14.3 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 61-72 (14.3 - 16.9%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery


The best counter because justified makes foul play help and not hinder Terrakions ability to sweep

Vs Machamp
252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-148 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 168-198 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 34-41 (8 - 9.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-150 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 102-121 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- 22.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

If your gonna ask why Machamp is down here, its because of its abilities, guts it gets more powered up with toxics that mandibuzz throws at it
And No Guard which lets Stone edge, and Dynamic Punch Perfect accuracy means you can get the confuse, and Mandibuzz can hit back

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 187-222 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 39-47 (9.1 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 68-81 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 192-229 (45.2 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 114-135 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mienshao, is another decent counter to mandibuzz, hitting it back hard


The problem is this is all for Mandibuzz, there is another called Sabeyle

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Crustle
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Terrakion
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 375-440 (123.3 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs Machamp
252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These calcs maybe weird because it seems it cant take the hits, but it has three things that make it perfect with Mandibuzz, Priority Burn, Priority Recover, and a fighting type immunity

Now look at these calcs after Sableye gets off the burn

Vs Armaldo
252+ Atk burned Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Crustle
252+ Atk burned Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Terrakion
252 Atk burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 26.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Heracross-Mega
252+ Atk burned Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 125-145 (41.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vs Machamp
252+ Atk burned Machamp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 75-89 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Mienshao
252 Atk Life Orb burned Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at the difference it makes, its Insane, This is why Im nominating
Balanced Dark > High Tier
Bulky Dark > High Tier

First, thanks for Replying Dirpz!

I am going to have to point out, however, that Mandibuzz is just one Poke, and is thus pressured to Switch In if it hopes to get over the Threats you mentioned, so if it goes down, then what? And on the subject of Switch Ins, let's also take into account the fact that Mandibuzz has a Stealth Rock Weakness, and many of these Types have reliable Stealth Rock Setters. That said, to be fair, you should probably include an extra Calc with Stealth Rocks up to fully justify your dispute.

So with saying that, I, personally, don't think that one Poke is enough to give Monotype play-styles a spot in the High Tier. Now I'm not at all saying Mandibuzz isn't important to Dark, because it is, by a long shot. But from my experiences, Mandibuzz gets worn down eventually, leaving you without another reliable answer.

Now you mentioned how it interacts with Sableye and how it's Priority WoW supports it; that's another point I would have addressed. But now that I'm seeing you did, that's good, but I still don't think Mandibuzz, it's access to Brave Bird (which has Recoil and thus less survivability, be sure to include that in your Calcs too), or how it has to rely on Sableye for certain Threats makes it deserving of High Tier.

 

[floe]

Hey guys! It's aquas0und. Going to nominate Balanced (non Swift Swim) Water for high tier. Been using water for awhile, and it's great to have a place to talk about its viability.

Water is a very versatile type, having types shared with all but one (until Volcanion arrives). Because of this, water has more flexibility than other types, although some archetypes must be established in order for water to overcome its weaknesses. Sae has done a really good job in showcasing some monster sweepers on Balanced Water; In contrast, I'm going to elaborate more on its weaknesses and propose some solutions that highlight its versatility.

Water must obviously find some way to deal with Electric types. Luckily there are some Water/Ground types to choose from, although most players will find Swampert useful for its high defenses, ability to set up Stealth Rock and phase/pseudo-haze using Roar or Yawn, and its strong Ground STAB in Earthquake. Furthermore, Scald allows it to spread burns, easing its physical-tanking capabilities. Quagsire is another option to add, as its Unaware ability and reliable recovery allows it to safely switch into most physical attackers and set-up sweepers with ease. Lanturn is also a great way to get around Water's Electric weakness. With Volt Absorb Lanturn can switch into Electric attacks and heal any damage taken. It also walls a few Rotom forms including Rotom-W, which would otherwise give Water/Ground types trouble because of their neutrality to Hydro Pump as well as their susceptibility to Will-o-Wisp. Rotom also has the option to Trick a Choice Scarf onto said Water/Ground types, crippling them for the rest of the match. Heal Bell and Volt Switch add to Lanturn's utility and are invaluable in supporting the team.

I'd like to caution against using only one of the aforementioned Pokemon to deal with the Electric weakness. Although Lanturn provides an immunity to Electric, Pokemon such as Kyurem-B and Mega-Ampharos can bypass Volt Absorb and deal heavy damage with Fusion Bolt and Thunderbolt, respectively.

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 52 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 209-247 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 52 HP / 204+ SpD Lanturn: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In the case for using only a Water/Ground type (and not Lanturn) to deal with the Electric weakness, balanced water may find trouble against the previously-mentioned Rotom-W. Thundurus and Greninja will also cause trouble for the team, as both learn Grass Knot, which--with their high Special Attack--could quickly remove a Swampert or Quagsire.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 52 HP / 204+ SpD Lanturn: 101-120 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, having both Lanturn and a Water/Ground type greatly improve Balanced Water's ability to take on Electric teams.

Grass is Water's only other weakness, and in my opinion more difficult to dealt with than Electric. This is mainly due to the type's bulky nature and resistance to Water. However, there are ways for Water to deal with some of the more common Pokemon seen on Grass teams.

One might be hard-pressed to find a way to deal with Mega-Venusaur. Its huge bulk and Thick Fat ability allows it to tank the Ice Beams commonly used by Water-type Pokemon, and both Synthesis and Giga drain ensure that Venusaur won't go down easily. On the more defensive side, a specially-defensive Liquid Ooze Tentacruel is a nice switch-in. As most Mega-Venusaur run Giga Drain, Tentacruel can slowly lower Venusaur's health while taking little damage, forcing Venusaur to hit it with a weak Sludge Bomb or switch out. Switching into a Leech Seed becomes a bonus, as the opposing team will take damage from Liquid Ooze regardless of whether or not Venusaur switches out. Acid Spray is an excellent tool for Tentacruel that applies to Grass and non-Grass teams alike. It harshly lowers the opponent's Special Defense stat, further encouraging it to switch out (a helpful tool against Calm Mind or Cosmic Power sweepers). Once Mega-Venusaur has taken sufficient damage, one can send in their Greninja or Choice Specs Keldeo with Hidden Power Flying to take it out. I find Choice Specs Greninja to be more effective, as it does significantly more damage than Keldeo's HP Flying due to Protean:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 288-338 (79.1 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Psychic-type): 127-151 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO

Breloom is a menace to Balanced Water teams. Its high attack coupled with Technician and Bullet Seed allows it to plow through most of these teams. It outspeeds most walls on Balanced Water and can easily find a turn to set up a Swords Dance, or cripple a Pokemon with Spore. Gyarados provides a temporary stop to Breloom with its Intimidate ability and the possibility of Ice Fang; however, Breloom resists Waterfall and Earthquake--two of the most common moves you will see on Gyarados, as most Gyarados run Dragon Dance and Substitute. Manaphy is a good check to Breloom, as an unboosted Ice Beam has a high chance to OHKO. Another check is Starmie, who outspeeds Breloom, resists Mach Punch, and takes it out with Psychic or Psyshock. The great thing about Monotype is that unorthodox Pokemon can be effective. Yes, I'm talking about Sap Sipper Azumarill. It acts as a hard counter to Breloom, as it is immune to Grass and resists Fighting. More often than not, it is very easy to bait a grass move and gain +1 to Attack due to Sap Sipper. Even without the boost, it OHKOs Breloom with a Choice-Banded Play Rough. Note, however, that Sap Sipper Azumarill must be Banded; otherwise, its damage output becomes very underwhelming.

I've discussed about how Balanced Water can handle its weaknesses type-wise. Here's a list of some of the major problem Pokemon for Balanced Water and how they can be handled:

• Mega Charizard-Y: Tough to counter due to Drought halving the power of Water-type moves and turning Solarbeam into a 1-turn move. Banded Sap Sipper Azumarill can switch into a Solarbeam and severely dent Charizard, making it easier to take out later on in the match using speedy Water-types such as Greninja, Keldeo, and Starmie.
• Galvantula: With access to both Electric- and Grass-type moves, Galvantula is difficult to handle. Thankfully, Galvantula is usually the first Pokemon sent out on Bug teams, so leading with Greninja is a good option. Specs Ice Beam OHKOs (2HKOs if Galvantula has a Focus Sash), while Galvantula's Bug Buzz or Thunder fail to OHKO an Ice-type Greninja. It is a risk to use Lanturn, although it can tank a couple Giga Drains or Energy Balls while weakening Galvantula in the process.
• Mega Pinsir: Very scary to face. After a Swords Dance, there are few water types that can take a hit. Rotom-W is the only reliable counter to it, as Quagsire risks being 2HKO'd and may be forced to use Haze while sacrificing itself in the process. Setting up Stealth Rock and phazing Pinsir is the way to go.
  • 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• Ludicolo: Specially defensive Tentacruel with Liquid Ooze can tank Energy Balls/Giga Drains, set up Toxic Spikes, or hit hard with a STAB Sludge Bomb. Sap Sipper Azumarill resists Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Focus Blast, and 2HKOs with Play Rough.
• Mega Gyarados: Bypasses Unaware and Water Absorb due to Mold Breaker. Set up Stealth Rock if possible, and switch in a hazer/pseudo-hazer when the opponent sends Gyarados out. An untimely flinch on your Swampert or Quagsire from a +1 Mega Gyarados Waterfall may spell doom for your team. However, a healthy Keldeo and Azumarill can reliably check Mega Gyarados, as +1 Earthquake will 2HKO.

Balanced Water can hold its own against types that are commonly seen in the upper ladders (Steel, Flying, and Swift Swim Water, for example). It has the advantages of burning potential physical threats with Scald and Will-o-Wisp, countering type weaknesses with immunities, bulk, and utility, and finally providing offensive presence either with set-up sweepers or by sheer power. The versatility of this particular play-style is why I am nominating it for high tier.

Thanks for reading! I may possibly add more to this post in the future. :)

 

[jbozz1217]

OVERALL

I'm going to say that I'm not sure this assessment of Dark Monotype is going well, or in the least, going consistently.

Thank you Formerhope for pointing out the flaw in the Mandibuzz assessment. Yes Mandibuzz can wall most physical things to DEATH and I absolutely love her. Brave Bird Max+ Def Mandibuzz is my go-to 6-0 for many fighting times. I'm not even kidding.

However, if you Max+ Defense on Mandibuzz then it cannot survive special hits very well and starts to have problems with Mixed Infernape and Keldeo, among other pokemon, none of which Mono Dark has an answer for. The moment you start decreasing defense, Terrakion and others start to be problems too. And as mentioned, yes, Mandibuzz IS only one Pokemon. However, in some ways, it's all Mono Dark has. Mandibuzz is the only reliable Defogger and is weak to SR. Umbreon SERIOUSLY does not cut it due to the prevalence of super effective hits. I would honestly rather run Mandibuzz + Drapion over Umbreon, but that still presents a problem. Umbreon does not fair well against the likes of Keldeo and Lucario, either.

MONO FAIRY

Mawile, Gardevoir, and Sylveon all destroy Mono Dark so hard. Yes, Bisharp is a thing. But Bisharp cannot kill them all, and has to then deal with Azumarill and Mawile when the switch in. Not a good matchup. Mega Gardevoir literally 2HKOs everything, and OHKOs most, including Umbreon, and that's supposed to be our best special wall. Might I add that Tyranitar does fair slightly better as a special wall (albeit without recovery) in all cases that do not involve Fighting moves.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 260-308 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bisharp is the best way to take care of Mega Gardevoir, in my opinion. I run Focus Sash on mine, but that does present obvious entry hazard concerns. In cases of Mega-Gard, Bisharp will amost always be outsped and OHKOd without Sash or with prior damage. Drapion doesn't get OHKOd, and can OHKO back. However, most teams will not find space to run both Bisharp and Drapion, and neither of them wants to be left with either 1% or 40% HP, respectively, especially with their lack of respectable speed or means of recovery when an entire team of Fairy threats faces you.

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 306-361 (109.6 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Drapion: 288-340 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 193-228 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's all I've got for fairy. Mega Mawile kills everything. You need EQ/Fire from Tyranitar, Krookodile, Hydreigon, Houndoom to kill it. And yes, most teams run at least two of those pokemon. However, all of them except Tyranitar can be OHKO'd by any fairy except Klefki.

MONO BUG

Honestly, I have never encountered huge problems with Mono Bug teams. Most pokemon are physically based and it is oh too easy to predict the switch in to Volcarona when my Sableye is about to use WoW. I honestly consider Mono Bug the easiest of the negative matchups for Mono Dark. In fact, I hardly see it as negative at all. Mono Dark has way more problems with Water and Steel than it does with Bug. Biggest threats to be named are Mega Heracross (by far), Volcarona, and Yanmega, I guess. Even those are not tough to counter if you save the appropriate wall or try to avoid letting them boost. This is a very manageable matchup, given Mandibuzz, Honchkrow, Houndoom, Tyranitar with Fire Blast and Rock Stab, Hydreigon, Krookodile with Rock Coverage... all great offensive options.

MONO FIGHTING

Mono Fighting is intermediate here, where the whole team can be taken out by Mandibuzz, Greninja, or RevengeScarfers, save for (Scarf)Keldeo and Conkeldurr, where everything falls unless you work some Protean magic, which is often situational and difficult. Mach Punch from Conkeldurr will 2HKO anyone on most teams who isn't Mandibuzz or Sableye, and Mandi can't roost off the damage for fear of being Drain Punched. I haven't found that Sableye is a reliable counter for Conkeldurr in any way, inb4 confuse ray...

For reference::: 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

MONO PSYCHIC

Because of Mega Gardevoir and simply the advent of Fairy Moves in general, Mono Psychic is actually not even a positive matchup anymore. I am only basing this on my own experience, but it is super tough to actually win against a Psychic team. With everything having Dazzling Gleam or Focus Blast, and often outspeeding, life gets pretty hard. Meloetta and Gardevoir in particular.

MONO STEEL

Balloon Heatran gives Dark Teams hell. Though a defensive Tyranitar can tank a few hits and end up on top, now you have nearly lost Tyranitar, who for me is a great way to deal with Forretress and Skarmory. And if you don't kill it quickly, you'll start to feel the pressure and avoid WoW with Sableye. Aegislash is a huge concern for anyone not running Foul Play on Mandibuzz. Shadow Ball from Aegislash does great damage to Sableye, to the point where any Sableye without max SpD will be 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball, or by Shadow Ball/Sneak combo. On that note, Max SpD Sableye is useful only in certain situations (Re: Aegislash and against Water Monos), and I therefore recommend a mixed set that balances out defenses with Mandibuzz (and Umbreon, if applicable).


I could go on and on about certain matchups. But the truth is that Mono Dark is one of the best types for countering its weaknesses. EVEN FAIRY. Considering how pathetic most types fare against their weaknesses, Mono Dark has ways to come out on top. HOWEVER, there is no one team that is balanced enough to counter all three weaknesses. If you tell me I'm going to face a Fighting team, you better believe I'm putting Brave Bird on Mandibuzz and maybe switching out Krookodile for Honchkrow, and giving my Sableye some more defense EVs. Maybe I'd even give my Tyranitar a chople berry. I'd also put Shadow Sneak and Extrasensory on Greninja.

But guess what? All of those fixes only work against Mono Fighting. Brave Bird on Mandibuzz makes Mandi (BB, Roost, Toxic/Taunt, Defog) nearly useless against Mono Steel and Aegislash, not to mention the difficulty in choosing a moveset for Greninja. Foul Play on Mandibuzz is not as effective against Mono Fighting.

And if you're facing a Fairy Team, great, use Drapion. But outside of Fairy Monos, Drapion is severely outclasses by faster and more powerful Sweepers/Revenge Killers. Umbreon is great for tanking hits against a Water Mono and is useful against Stall Teams, but can't do much of anything to Fighting Monos and most Bugs.


Basically, I'm saying that Mono Dark IS versatile and has the potential to take on many teams, but can't do them all at once. There are too many decisions to be made and too many losses to cut. The fact that the best defensive walls that the type has are destroyed in 1-2 hits by STAB Fairy attacks just shows that it cannot be High Tier.

I love Mono Dark but it continues to be a struggle to make team-based decisions due to the contradictions listed above. I say Balanced Dark for Middle Tier.

Oh, and Bulky Dark? LOL. I don't even know what that is. Mandibuzz, Sableye, Umbreon, Scrafty, Tyranitar... ? Bulky Dark can make a game last forever but it's not easy to kill things. Maybe against a neutral opponent it could work out OK with Toxic Stall and Scrafty Boosting... but against something that is going to kill you, this simply does not work in practice. Without the speed and coverage offered by Greninja, Hydreigon, Krookodile, and Bisharp, Dark Monos have no hope of being successful, especially against pokemon that resist all the things (Re: Heatran) or take neutral damage from all of your attacks and then OHKO you (Re: Mawile, Gardevoir).



~ Jozo

EDIT: If anyone wants to battle me, I'm DLGL Jozo on Frost... or just Jozo. ;)

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Balanced Dark ---> Mid Tier

Balanced Dark has a rather above average Matchup against many different Types, while only at a real disadvantage against few but prevalent Types. As a play-style, Dark Types can reach a compromise between both Offense and Defense, with practically everything they need to on paper to pull it off. While you have a rather limited selection of what you can use, Balanced Teams can inevitably vary. And while this combined could make it High Tier, Balanced Dark, in my opinion and apparently the majority of others, feel that it has small yet many drawbacks that keep it from being there. That said, Balanced Dark is now Mid Tier, as according to the OP:

Matchups:

Balanced Dark rather excels in this field, having rather above average Matchups with every Type bar Fairy, HO Fighting, and Water Teams (correct me if I'm wrong). It has key members in Bisharp and/or Mixed Hydreigon to get over their Weakness to Fairy, Mandibuzz and/or Sableye to handle Fighting and Bug, while maintaining an overall decent Offense from the aforementioned powerhouses as well as DD Tyranitar, Greninja, and etc, so it is able to get over it's Weaknesses without relying on gimmicks at all. However, it has few real advantageous Matchups and many neutral Matchups, such as the great example used by jbozz1217, where not even Psychic is a positive Matchup for Dark anymore due to their access to Dark-slaying Mega Evolutions. Such is the case on many other Teams as well, with Azumarill presenting a major Threat with it's neutrality to Bisharp's Iron Head, putting Dark at a disadvantage from Team Preview. In addition to this, Dark also faces backlash from the Talonflame Ban, which gives rise to Fighting and Bug, two Types that are becoming more common on the Ladder. This in combination with the fact Dark has few real positive Matchups makes it Mid Tier in terms of Matchups.

Effectiveness:

As a Balanced Team, Dark has everything it needs to successfully pull off the play-style: it has a Fighting pivots in Mandibuzz and Sableye, with the former using raw Bulk to tank Fighting hits while also having Roost as Recovery, Whirlwind as a Phazing Move, Knock Off for Utility, or even Iron Defense to take advantage of Fighting's heavy reliance on Physical Moves; while the latter's Prankster Will-o-Wisp supports it's Teammates by crippling Physical Attackers, cancelling Set Ups with Taunt, and survivability with Recover. These two Pokes are it's main selling points Defensively, as they also let them handle Offensive Bug for the same reasons as above, while also having Drapion and Tyranitar's raw Bulk to Tank Special Attacks. Where it lacks Defensively it has Offensively; Bisharp and it's brutal Steel STAB slams any non-Water/Steel Type Fairies, while it can put Gardevoir-Mega in a checkmate position between Sucker Punch/Pursuit. Scarfed Honchkrow runs through opposing Defensive Cores with it's extremely powerful STABs, while also nabbing some Revenge Kills with it's many Coverage Moves. The presence of Tyranitar gives Balanced Dark a dangerously versatile Poke that has completely different Checks depending on what Set it's using, while the popular Dragon Dance Set gives it an all-around solid Win Condition. Greninja and it's Protean shenanigans inevitably contribute to Dark's excellent Offense as well, with the option of running other things as well...

Versatility:

Although Dark is practically restricted to reserve two slots for Mandibuzz and Sableye, it can mix up what approaches it takes to Offense. As mentiond before, Tyranitar can run many Sets that each have different Checks depending on what it runs, leaving the opponent cautious when Switching Into it. You have many different Pokes to choose from in the Scarfer department, where you can opt to use raw power in Honchkrow, a more momentum based Sweeper in MoxieDile, or even Scarf Greninja if you feel that Terrakion and Keldeo agitate your Defensive Core. Greninja can also run it's extremely powerful LO Set, serving as a great Wall Breaker with it's Coverage and infinite STAB, or even as a Utility with Taunt/Spikes or Toxic Spikes (although Toxic Spikes in Mono are really bad, lol). If you don't like that Water Dual Type as a Wall Breaker, you have the option to use Crawdaunt as well, which doesn't fail to leave Balanced Dark without Priority. If Steel if giving you problems, Mixed Expert Belt/LO Hydreigon or Tyranitar and their Ground/Fire Moves can pick apart Skarmory/Heatran/Ferrothorn, paving the way for other Sweepers to do their jobs. EBelt/LO Hydreigon gets mentioned twice in this department, as it can even get past Fairies who think they can Wall it with Steel Wing- even at 0 Atk, Hydreigon is capable of 2HKO'ing Specially Defensive Florges upon Switch In after SR's (although you may wanna invest in a little more since many Florges run Def). There are many more options that Balanced Dark has that I may have missed, but these all contribute to Mono Dark's vast Versatility (although in Mono, Teams typically look the same).

But even though Dark has everything it needs on paper, it just has too few real Matchups to be considered High Tier. What it does have, however, make it an above average Type, overall. That said, in conclusion:

Although Balanced Dark is an overall good Type, it suffers from a lack of positive Matchups and has small yet many drawbacks that keep it from being High Tier Tier.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

As for Balanced Water, I am currently testing it and holding discussions with my team to determine if it should or should not be High Tier. Expect a response next week.

Thanks to everyone who participated so far! Keep up the good work!

 

[Former]

Are we going to do a different review for Balanced Water using Rain/Swift swim or will they be the same?

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Are we going to do a different review for Balanced Water using Rain/Swift swim or will they be the same?

Since Rain technically isn't a play-style in itself (according to the way Usage Stats are read), Balanced Water will be Ranked separately from Rain Balanced Water. I apologize if the OP wasn't clear about that, but this applies to all Monotype play-styles; for example, HO Fire Teams with Ninetales will be Ranked treated differently then HO Fire without it. And while we're on the topic of Fire play-styles, Charizard-Mega-Y can't be bracketed with Ninetales as a Sun Setter since its Base form doesn't have Drought prior to Mega Evolution. Expanding on the differences between a Weatherless and Weather Team, manual Weather Teams are also technically Weather Teams and will be counted as such too. In an effort to stay accurate, however,we are going to classify a Weather Team by one that uses or relies on Weather to activate Abilities, pull of a strategy, and/or has the basis of said Team built around it. So that means that Mono Dark Teams with Sand Stream Tyranitar aren't considered Weather Teams unless there using, Idk, Sand Veil Cacturne.

I'm glad you asked that question, Formerhope. So for now on we'll denote Weather and Weatherless Teams in brackets, so that we know the difference easier.

That said, what we'll be discussing next week is Balanced Water (Weatherless), if I'm correct

 

[Acast]

(This is Imp Acast from Frost. You probably haven't heard of me, but just mentioning it just in case.)Personally, I use a semi-stall ghost team. Half the team is devoted to support/stall and the other half is entirely offense. After using this style for a while, I've learned quite a bit about it. For this reason, I'd like to nominate semi-stall Ghost for Mid Tier.

Disclaimer: I'll be analyzing each of the ghosts that I find most useful. Just scroll down to the bottom of the post to see the overall summary if you don't feel like reading about each of the individual ghosts.

I'll start with the analysis from a stall perspective...

Sableye is a ghost that's practically tailor-made for stall. With priority taunt, recover, will-o-wisp, and toxic as well as knock off to get rid of an opposing wall's leftovers, Sableye can outstall a huge number of pokemon. Running special defense EVs along with will-o-wisp allows it to tank hits from both offenses and recover while the opponent's HP slowly drops from burn.

Dusclops with eviolite is a nightmare for some people. One person I've battled multiple times has said that my dusclops haunts his dreams. It's an absolute monster at tanking hits and has access to will-o-wisp, toxic, and pain split; perfect moves for stalling other pokemon. Pain Split works incredibly well alongside Dusclops' dreadful HP stat, so it leeches a lot of HP from the opponent and heals a decent amount of Dusclops' HP at the same time.

Gourgeist-Super is an incredibly underrated pokemon. Few people ever expect its physical bulk and, by then, Gourgeist has already burned the opponent with Will-o-wisp, crippling its physical attacks for the rest of the battle. It also has access to Leech Seed so it could pull off the iconic sub-seeder role. Also, people don't realize it has a usable attack stat and access to stab priority with Shadow Sneak, so it makes a surprisingly good (and unexpected) revenge-killer. Another underrated aspect of this pokemon is the ability Frisk. While not the most useful ability, it has still helped me quite a few times, especially when it comes to finding out whether the opponent has a choice item.

Spiritomb is another awesome ghost for stall. With all-around good defenses, it can take hits and it's perfect against opposing pokemon that think they can escape getting burned/poisoned/confused by using substitute. Infiltrator makes all of Spiritomb's moves go straight through subs. Once Spiritomb sets up a sub of its own, it can Sucker Punch the opponent or, if the opponent tries setting up swords dance/hone claws/etc, it could use Foul Play. A calm mind set is also possible for the more offensive side of things.

Trevenant is a pokemon that I haven't had much opportunity to play around with, simply because I love Gourgeist so much. But harvest is a great ability on a stall pokemon and Trevenant exemplifies that. From what I know about it, it has two basic options if it wants to stall: the standard Sitrus berry set, or a Chesto-Rest set. Just as all the other ghosts, it has access to Will-o-wisp and Toxic, the bread and butter of stall. Just like its fellow Ghost/Grass, Gourgeist, it also has access to Leech Seed and could pull off a sub/seeder role as well, which could be a great combo with the Sitrus Berry.

Now on the offensive side of ghost types...

Aegislash is an obvious choice. It's on practically every successful ghost team for good reason. In blade form, its offenses are outstanding. In shield form, the same goes for its defenses. It could easily run a physical, special, or mixed set and it's not limited to the standard Swords Dance or Weakness Policy sets either. A set that has become more common recently is substitute aegislash. Personally, I haven't found a way to make it work, but it's given me a lot of trouble when I face it. Also King's Shield makes Aegislash a nightmare for any physical opponent that doesn't run Earthquake.

Gengar has been the stereotypical sweeper since the first generation. Great speed and outstanding special attack lands it on pretty much every ghost team, just like aegislash. While it doesn't have as many options as Aegislash, it does still have quite a few. There are the obvious Scarf and Specs sets, which Gengar pulls off beautifully. Its move pool is amazing, with a wide range of offensive moves and some great support moves as well. Trick in particular is very useful when using a choice item or Black Sludge. A Sub/Disable set is also common and is perfect for shutting down Sucker Punch users. Also, as a side note, its ability Levitate easily allows it to switch in to any ground move, assuming the opponent doesn't have mold breaker.

Chandelure, my personal favorite pokemon. It has few viable options, but that doesn't make it bad. On the contrary, a scarved Chandelure is amazing and it's probably the best way to use Chandy. I've also seen a sashed Chandelure, which isn't bad, but it can't sweep like a scarved Chandy can.

Other options include:
Golurk: the only Ghost able to set up Stealth Rocks. Its attack stat is great, but it's neither fast nor bulky, so it's not a very good choice in my opinion.
Mega Banette: A pokemon exclusive to the ghost type, this thing can pack a punch and support its team at the same time. Personally, I don't use it much, but it has a base attack stat of 165 and Prankster for an ability as well as access to Destiny Bond. Priority Destiny Bond is a concept that's scary as hell. This is a mega that can be a monster if played right.

There are others that I haven't mentioned such as Drifblim, Mismagius, Shedinja, Froslass, Jellicent, etc, but this post is more than long enough as it is, so I won't go into detail about those.

Overall
Pros:
-awesome offensive stab
-2 pranksters to choose from. One with Recover, the other with Destiny Bond.
-with both stall and offense on the same team, it isn't entirely countered by any one play style
-Aegislash (yes, it deserves its own bullet point)
Cons:
-utterly defenseless against most dark teams. I've searched for ways to handle dark, but ghost just can't handle it most times. I've only ever defeated dark teams a handful of times and hax was involved in those victories.
-few options to work with compared to other types
-no stealth rock unless you use Golurk
-often relies heavily on prediction

Ghost's incredible weakness to dark and lack of pokemon to choose from prevent it from being top tier, but with major threats such as Sableye, Gengar and Aegislash, I firmly believe it doesn't belong in low tier. Therefore, semi-stall ghost's logical place is Mid Tier.

 

[Sae]

Overall
Pros:
-awesome offensive stab
-2 pranksters to choose from. One with Recover, the other with Destiny Bond.
-with both stall and offense on the same team, it isn't entirely countered by any one play style
-Aegislash (yes, it deserves its own bullet point)
Cons:
-utterly defenseless against most dark teams. I've searched for ways to handle dark, but ghost just can't handle it most times. I've only ever defeated dark teams a handful of times and hax was involved in those victories.
-few options to work with compared to other types
-no stealth rock unless you use Golurk
-often relies heavily on prediction

Ghost's incredible weakness to dark and lack of pokemon to choose from prevent it from being top tier, but with major threats such as Sableye, Gengar and Aegislash, I firmly believe it doesn't belong in low tier. Therefore, semi-stall ghost's logical place is Mid Tier.

I've never actually tried Ghost yet, but one major thing that usually cripples most ghosts is Knock Off. Even if not on a Dark team, Knock Off severely dents Ghost mons or gets rid of important recovery (especially for a semi-stall team). Getting rid of Trevenant's item so it can't Harvest anymore or getting rid of Lefties seems to devastate a team dedicated to stall.

Sableye though is a redeeming factor for Ghosts. With an instant ability to Prankster Taunt or Wil-o-wisp (unlike Mega Banette who has to wait a turn) it allows it to stop most Knock Off users from totally annihilating the team by burning them and then some other Pokemon like Jellicent can at least use Recover to regain HP. Still Knock Off severely dents everything in Ghost and since it's such an important move in the game I can definitely say it's not Hight Tier. Mid-tier though I'd have to get more information on how it deals with other types before nominating it for a position.

 

[Acast]

I've never actually tried Ghost yet, but one major thing that usually cripples most ghosts is Knock Off. Even if not on a Dark team, Knock Off severely dents Ghost mons or gets rid of important recovery (especially for a semi-stall team). Getting rid of Trevenant's item so it can't Harvest anymore or getting rid of Lefties seems to devastate a team dedicated to stall.

Sableye though is a redeeming factor for Ghosts. With an instant ability to Prankster Taunt or Wil-o-wisp (unlike Mega Banette who has to wait a turn) it allows it to stop most Knock Off users from totally annihilating the team by burning them and then some other Pokemon like Jellicent can at least use Recover to regain HP. Still Knock Off severely dents everything in Ghost and since it's such an important move in the game I can definitely say it's not Hight Tier. Mid-tier though I'd have to get more information on how it deals with other types before nominating it for a position.

I have to agree with this. Knock off does cause trouble for Ghosts, but there are a few ways that Ghost can handle Knock off. As you mentioned, Sableye handles Knock off users easily with Will-o-wisp and Recover. WP Aegislash is also a great way to handle it.
I also agree that Ghost can't be High Tier. It's completely hard countered by dark.

Here's my impression of how Ghost matches up against some other types:

Normal: As long as you have Knock off, Ghost can handle stall Normal quite easily. Offensive Normal teams can't use their stab moves on Ghosts and Staraptor will easily get burned by Sableye. Sableye really shines against Normal teams.

Psychic: Meloetta is the only real issue here, but Aegislash can handle Meloetta pretty easily. Again, Sableye is amazing in this matchup. A Sableye with special defense EVs can take a Draco Meteor from a modest Latios (the most common Psychic lead that I've come across) and can then Recover away the damage. Specs Latios has about an 80% chance to OHKO, but switching to Aegislash is an easy way to avoid that.
252+ SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fire: Ghosts have a difficult time stalling fire because of their burn immunity, making Will-o-wisp useless. For this reason, I tend to focus more on the offensive side against fire teams. Flash Fire Chandelure really comes in handy here, especially against Mega Charizard Y. If you can correctly predict a fire move from Char Y and switch to Chandy, then you have a flash fire boost AND the boost from the sun. This makes Chandy's Fire Blast/Flamethrower do a TON of damage, even against other fire types. Admittedly, Heatran ruins Chandy's day. Basically, a battle against Fire is an uphill battle for Ghosts, but there are ways to deal with it.

Dark: As I mentioned in my previous post, Ghost is utterly defenseless against Dark teams. I really hate saying that, but it's true. Gengar can carry Dazzling Gleam, but Dark teams always carry Sucker Punch. Aegislash can carry Sacred Sword, but Sableye is immune and can burn Aegislash in return. Sableye can try to burn the Dark team so that Sucker Punch won't do so much damage, but Mega Absol's Magic Bounce prevents that from happening. If you use Ghost and you have figured out a reliable way to defeat a GOOD Dark team, please tell me. I would love to know that it's possible and you will automatically earn my respect as a battler.

Fighting: Obviously Ghost has a huge advantage here. Sableye can burn all the physical attackers that don't have Guts, and Fighting types can't use their stab moves. Scrafty is an issue sometimes, but a Dazzling Gleam from Gengar OHKOs it every time.

These are just 5 of the most extreme match ups that I've noticed. Ghost is a relatively neutral matchup against all the other types in my experience. Though I'm open to different opinions on this matter.

 

[dinotrek27]

I have to agree with this. Knock off does cause trouble for Ghosts, but there are a few ways that Ghost can handle Knock off. As you mentioned, Sableye handles Knock off users easily with Will-o-wisp and Recover. WP Aegislash is also a great way to handle it.
I also agree that Ghost can't be High Tier. It's completely hard countered by dark.

Here's my impression of how Ghost matches up against some other types:

Normal: As long as you have Knock off, Ghost can handle stall Normal quite easily. Offensive Normal teams can't use their stab moves on Ghosts and Staraptor will easily get burned by Sableye. Sableye really shines against Normal teams.

Psychic: Meloetta is the only real issue here, but Aegislash can handle Meloetta pretty easily. Again, Sableye is amazing in this matchup. A Sableye with special defense EVs can take a Draco Meteor from a modest Latios (the most common Psychic lead that I've come across) and can then Recover away the damage. Specs Latios has about an 80% chance to OHKO, but switching to Aegislash is an easy way to avoid that.
252+ SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Fire: Ghosts have a difficult time stalling fire because of their burn immunity, making Will-o-wisp useless. For this reason, I tend to focus more on the offensive side against fire teams. Flash Fire Chandelure really comes in handy here, especially against Mega Charizard Y. If you can correctly predict a fire move from Char Y and switch to Chandy, then you have a flash fire boost AND the boost from the sun. This makes Chandy's Fire Blast/Flamethrower do a TON of damage, even against other fire types. Admittedly, Heatran ruins Chandy's day. Basically, a battle against Fire is an uphill battle for Ghosts, but there are ways to deal with it.

Dark: As I mentioned in my previous post, Ghost is utterly defenseless against Dark teams. I really hate saying that, but it's true. Gengar can carry Dazzling Gleam, but Dark teams always carry Sucker Punch. Aegislash can carry Sacred Sword, but Sableye is immune and can burn Aegislash in return. Sableye can try to burn the Dark team so that Sucker Punch won't do so much damage, but Mega Absol's Magic Bounce prevents that from happening. If you use Ghost and you have figured out a reliable way to defeat a GOOD Dark team, please tell me. I would love to know that it's possible and you will automatically earn my respect as a battler.

Fighting: Obviously Ghost has a huge advantage here. Sableye can burn all the physical attackers that don't have Guts, and Fighting types can't use their stab moves. Scrafty is an issue sometimes, but a Dazzling Gleam from Gengar OHKOs it every time.

These are just 5 of the most extreme match ups that I've noticed. Ghost is a relatively neutral matchup against all the other types in my experience. Though I'm open to different opinions on this matter.

How about poison and fairy? I think it's possible ghosts have an upper hand against these types due to resistance and stuff like Aegislash and Gengar at their disposal

 

[Acast]

How about poison and fairy? I think it's possible ghosts have an upper hand against these types due to resistance and stuff like Aegislash and Gengar at their disposal

I typically don't have many issues against poison. As long as I can burn Drapion early on, Poison is a somewhat positive matchup for Ghost, but I really wouldn't call it a type advantage.
Fairy's stab moves can cause trouble for Ghost because Sableye is so important and if Spiritomb happens to be on the team as well, Ghost has trouble. But if Sableye is the only Dark type on the Ghost team, then I'd say it's a fairly neutral matchup. Togekiss's and Klefki's Thunder Waves and Whimsicott's Stun Spore do become troublesome for both the stall and offensive sides of a semi stall ghost team. And Mega Mawile's Sucker Punch is an issue. The thing is, even if Sableye can burn Mawile, a Play Rough will still OHKO the Sableye unless it has Defense EVs. Aegislash and Gengar do help in this matchup, but I can't definitively say that either type gets the advantage here, but if the opponent has Mega Gardevoir instead of Mawile, then Ghost easily has the advantage.

 

[Sae]

Okay so I've been doing some testing against Ghost teams (still need to trial them) but I will say that I'm really liking the access to Infiltrator Wil-o-wisp on stuff like Spiritomb and possibly Chandelure, but that's kind of needed to be your Flash Fire poke to be immune to Fire. Burning Pokemon through Substitutes and also having access to Taunt prevents a lot of physically oriented boosters from setting up.

Honestly from what I know, Ghost has amazing niche movesets and it's all about finding the right ones. There's the standard Dbond Sash which I love combining with Icy Wind on things like Gengar among others.

 

[North]

Hyper offense mono fighting for mid/high tier

Let me just start with how fighting feels in the monotype metagame. Back in the days of gen5, when flying was one of the worst types, and fighting had the tools to beat psychic, fighting was easily one of the best types in the meta-game. But 6 months later to now with Gen 6 fighting has definatly decreased in viability. With flying types being now one of the best types in the game, if not the best, steel being givin the tools it needs to beat fighting, and psychic doing what it normally does but now has fairy to counter scrafty. And i mean fairy is a gg to a non experianced fighting user, but to others its a piece of cake.

Fighting definatly has its upsides though. It has pokes that can get up to 100+ speed stats, a wide array of priority, and obviously the stupid high attack and special attack stats on some pokes along with a good amount of pokes for coverage. Pokemon like cobalion, keldeo, breloom, scrafty, terrakion, infernape, hawlucha, medicham, etc etc, fighting can definatly cover a wide variety of teams.

 

[Pikachuun]

Hyper offense mono fighting for mid/high tier

Care to explain?

EDIT: Well he explained

 

[North]

Care to explain?

sorry i accidentaly hit the reply button

 

[Omega-Xis]

I'd like to nominate Hyper Offensive Electric for Low / Mid tier.


The problem with Electric is that you don't have enough options. Yes, you have plenty of Special Attackers, but you only have 1 decent physical attacker named Electivire. However, you have access to Sticky Web (Galvantula). As most of you know, Sticky Web lets you lower every grounded Pokemon’s speed by 1. This makes a huge difference since it lets Pokemon like Electivire outspeed Terrakions etc. Electric Pokemon are also generally frail making it hard for them to switch out and in. They also do not have have any viable priority users out of Thundurus-I (Thunder Wave) making it extremely hard for Electric monos to stop set up sweepers. You can only gets Stealth Rock from Stunfisk which is a pretty bad Pokemon overall. In return you get only 1 weakness that a lot of Pokemon are immune to (Ground), and combined with Hidden Power Ice, you have the BoltBeam combo. Electric is only resisted by Grass which is hardly seen, and Ground and Dragon, which is covered by HP Ice. Another thing is that Electric Pokemon are generally fast, so combined with a Life Orb / Specs / Band you can power through most teams after weakening them. So when you combine them all together, I think that HO Electric deserves to be in the upper Low, or Mid tier.

Physical Thundurus-I isn't a thing anymore?

 

[Zewwok]

It does get some use as a defog deterrent with Defiant. Not very helpful if you only have Stunfisk for rocks though.