Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[Dilasc]

Regen Blissey would be quite annoying. Healing a good 230+ health every switch out is no small number. My boots quake in fear

Forretress I cannot get behind. Heal Order? Maybe. Flash Fire? How would you want to reliably wall/counter CharizardX and Heatran? Either way, both would be more helpful than scrappy Sticky Web. Adding sticky web just begs you to use taunt.

To be fair, I don't dislike Web using Forretress, but from a standpoint of future potential, Volt Absorb or Flash Fire or a recovery move would rule so much more.

I like the hell out of the other two, at least conceptually at least but I feel that Flygon is one or two gen(s) too late. Fairies make the value of Tinted Lense that much less valuable because in the past, Flygon had perfect neutral coverage in 1 move. Now even with dual STAB, you become Togekiss' bitch. If it had a boosting move, I could get behind it easily, but without a dance there is no dice.

Froslass I see no problem with at all. It's a pure buff. Only good things can come of this ability to abuse a typical ghost movepool (pity about the lack of W-o-W,) but fast spikes, and even fast Bond with put Banette out of work.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

;lmlm I never meant to suggest that froslass would be broken, just that I'm in the camp that would support a thundurus suspect test. The ability to ruin almost any sweep without significant opportunity cost is incredibly annoying. What's more, one of the few sweepers that can get past Thundurus (DD Dragonite) can't get past Froslass because of that ghost typing.

Luckily, its lead movepool is so good, I don't see too many decent players choosing to use T Wave over its other options. Realistically speaking, after it's done its job of stopping other leads and setting up spikes, destiny bond will probably be the better option because it'll probably be staring a hugely offensive pokemon in the face and being able to take it out completely 100% of the time rather than simply paralyze it and still die 75% of the time is pretty good.

I suppose you could put it in the last slot, but a complete lack of offensive pressure leaves you with wonderful prediction games of whether you taunt or destiny bond when staring down the gun of a barrel that you could otherwise just shadow ball out of (base 110 speed is great for taking out frail attackers).

Really, this is a lot like my suggestion of Shadow Tag Dusknoir, except a lot better and instead of revenge killing and then sacrifice itself to take out a wall, Froslass does a lot more and takes out a sweeper.



Stef0w Froslass will not be broken. Destiny Bond is not that hard to play around, spikes is not hard to play around, taunt is probably only good for the meta as anything to give a way to get around SR and stallers is a god send imo, and it's offenses are not too great even with its great STAB.

Don't get me wrong, it would be a top tier mon, but not broken.



Dilasc A couple of things. 1) The issue with Forretress has nothing to do with what Sticky Web can do for it, but what it can do for sticky web. The answer is simple enough, it give it a setter that actually serves a role outside of SW. Since SW is not useful in every battle, and all the current setters are pretty worthless outside of it, it's never been worth it to use. Now it would be. There's no point to talk about how Flash Fire or whatever.

2) Did you really just say "Pity about the lack of WoW"? First of all, Prankster WoW is a retarded noob strategy to avoid being swept. I know Sableye is more than that, but what I see it used as most, and that's why it's only B-. Second, Froslass's lack of physical bulk or recover would mean it'd be unable to abuse it effectively.

3) Banette does not get work as it is.

 

[Sun King]

;lmlm I never meant to suggest that froslass would be broken, just that I'm in the camp that would support a thundurus suspect test. The ability to ruin almost any sweep without significant opportunity cost is incredibly annoying. What's more, one of the few sweepers that can get past Thundurus (DD Dragonite) can't get past Froslass because of that ghost typing.

Luckily, its lead movepool is so good, I don't see too many decent players choosing to use T Wave over its other options. Realistically speaking, after it's done its job of stopping other leads and setting up spikes, destiny bond will probably be the better option because it'll probably be staring a hugely offensive pokemon in the face and being able to take it out completely 100% of the time rather than simply paralyze it and still die 75% of the time is pretty good.

I suppose you could put it in the last slot, but a complete lack of offensive pressure leaves you with wonderful prediction games of whether you taunt or destiny bond when staring down the gun of a barrel that you could otherwise just shadow ball out of (base 110 speed is great for taking out frail attackers).

Really, this is a lot like my suggestion of Shadow Tag Dusknoir, except a lot better and instead of revenge killing and then sacrifice itself to take out a wall, Froslass does a lot more and takes out a sweeper.



Stef0w Froslass will not be broken. Destiny Bond is not that hard to play around, spikes is not hard to play around, taunt is probably only good for the meta as anything to give a way to get around SR and stallers is a god send imo, and it's offenses are not too great even with its great STAB.

Don't get me wrong, it would be a top tier mon, but not broken.



Dilasc A couple of things. 1) The issue with Forretress has nothing to do with what Sticky Web can do for it, but what it can do for sticky web. The answer is simple enough, it give it a setter that actually serves a role outside of SW. Since SW is not useful in every battle, and all the current setters are pretty worthless outside of it, it's never been worth it to use. Now it would be. There's no point to talk about how Flash Fire or whatever.

2) Did you really just say "Pity about the lack of WoW"? First of all, Prankster WoW is a retarded noob strategy to avoid being swept. I know Sableye is more than that, but what I see it used as most, and that's why it's only B-. Second, Froslass's lack of physical bulk or recover would mean it'd be unable to abuse it effectively.

3) Banette does not get work as it is.

If I could like this post multiple times, I would. I think you and I are in sync about a lot of things. One of the things we're not in sync about is the Prankster T-Wave issue, but I'll get to that in a minute. First, I'd like to agree with you that Frosslass is going to NEED at least Shadow Ball or Ice Beam as an attacking option just so that it isn't complete Taunt bait. With that being said, the logical move set would definitely be Taunt/Spikes/Destiny Bond/STAB. I think the opportunity cost of using Thunder Wave over any of the other moves is very high and the use of T-Wave on a move set would be highly situational and team-dependent.

I'd also like to thank you for addressing the Forretress issue above. You are 100% correct; Sticky Web on Forry was not intended as a buff to Forry, but a buff to the move itself. I wanted to give the move to a few other mons, but Forretress is truly the only one that has any flavor to it.

Now--the topic of Prankster Thunder Wave (and to a certain extent Prankster Will o Wisp). First, I think that I perhaps misspoke when I quoted you as saying it's broken. What I meant was that I don't have a problem with it. I understand this may be a little bit off topic, but I'm going to say it because it's a major metagame topic and those are always relevant to a Theorymon discussion. It is my personal belief that a game shouldn't be so simple as 6-0 sweeps (obviously I'm exaggerating here, but the sentiment remains the same). Prankster Thunder Wave, in my opinion, shouldn't be viewed as an "easy button" to prevent sweeps, but as a roadblock to your own team's ability to sweep. I think that it is completely healthy to have things like this to deter early game sweeps, as it adds a lot of flavor to a battle itself. Perhaps it's my own tendencies, but I truly hate 12 turn battles that essentially end at turn 6 with a sweeper setting up. I think that a metagame so offensive as that is very luck-based rather than skill-based because something as simple as the wrong prediction could cost you the game. I think that having elements such as Prankster Thunder Wave or Prankster Will o Wisp are very beneficial elements to a metagame because they deter these turn 6 setups; they essentially keep the entire offensive metagame in check. Is the distribution of these things a little centralized? Absolutely. But is it a bad thing intrinsically? I don't think so. Is it too much to ask the player base to try to work out a way to first remove roadblocks to a sweep? I don't think so.

Sorry if this was a little bit of a rant, but as I said, I believe it's fundamentally relevant because everything in the metagame affects how we Theorymon.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

If I could like this post multiple times, I would. I think you and I are in sync about a lot of things. One of the things we're not in sync about is the Prankster T-Wave issue, but I'll get to that in a minute. First, I'd like to agree with you that Frosslass is going to NEED at least Shadow Ball or Ice Beam as an attacking option just so that it isn't complete Taunt bait. With that being said, the logical move set would definitely be Taunt/Spikes/Destiny Bond/STAB. I think the opportunity cost of using Thunder Wave over any of the other moves is very high and the use of T-Wave on a move set would be highly situational and team-dependent.

I'd also like to thank you for addressing the Forretress issue above. You are 100% correct; Sticky Web on Forry was not intended as a buff to Forry, but a buff to the move itself. I wanted to give the move to a few other mons, but Forretress is truly the only one that has any flavor to it.

Now--the topic of Prankster Thunder Wave (and to a certain extent Prankster Will o Wisp). First, I think that I perhaps misspoke when I quoted you as saying it's broken. What I meant was that I don't have a problem with it. I understand this may be a little bit off topic, but I'm going to say it because it's a major metagame topic and those are always relevant to a Theorymon discussion. It is my personal belief that a game shouldn't be so simple as 6-0 sweeps (obviously I'm exaggerating here, but the sentiment remains the same). Prankster Thunder Wave, in my opinion, shouldn't be viewed as an "easy button" to prevent sweeps, but as a roadblock to your own team's ability to sweep. I think that it is completely healthy to have things like this to deter early game sweeps, as it adds a lot of flavor to a battle itself. Perhaps it's my own tendencies, but I truly hate 12 turn battles that essentially end at turn 6 with a sweeper setting up. I think that a metagame so offensive as that is very luck-based rather than skill-based because something as simple as the wrong prediction could cost you the game. I think that having elements such as Prankster Thunder Wave or Prankster Will o Wisp are very beneficial elements to a metagame because they deter these turn 6 setups; they essentially keep the entire offensive metagame in check. Is the distribution of these things a little centralized? Absolutely. But is it a bad thing intrinsically? I don't think so. Is it too much to ask the player base to try to work out a way to first remove roadblocks to a sweep? I don't think so.

Sorry if this was a little bit of a rant, but as I said, I believe it's fundamentally relevant because everything in the metagame affects how we Theorymon.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd just appreciate a suspect test to show the community's view on a pokemon who's mere presence nullifies 90% of the single pokemon win conditions in the game. If you outmaneuver your opponent and get +2/+2, you deserve to win imo. Checks can be weakened, revenge killers can be set up for, but Thundurus needs just 1 HP and 1 moveslot to do this and that's not something I think is realistic.

But this isn't really that relevant of an issue, because the lead set has no room for T wave. Wait, what if your team doesn't need a lead?

Froslass has answers for everything:
Stall
-Taunt
-Toxic
-Block

Offense
-T Wave
-Destiny Bond
-Confuse Ray
-Attract

Heck, there might be some validity to a rest talk set that's a total gimmick, but will get some mediocre players a win.

I especially want to bring attention to the offense moves (T wave, Confuse Ray, and Attract). You said in your post that you dislike luck based games (I disagree completely on the context, if you outmaneuver someone, I call it strategic playing, but I digress), so you should be aware if we vote for Froslass, you WILL lose a match to some cheap scape using a variation of swagplay because he's bored and wants to win a match without earning it.

I ADORE the lead set. If it were in the meta I'd love it, but Prankster is an ability so easily abused to turn matches into migraines. Just something to consider.

Edit: my bad salemance, to my credit, I did tie it back to the discussion, but I shouldn't have brought it up at all

 

[Salemance]

I see where you're coming from, but I'd just appreciate a suspect test to show the community's view on a pokemon who's mere presence nullifies 90% of the single pokemon win conditions in the game. If you outmaneuver your opponent and get +2/+2, you deserve to win imo. Checks can be weakened, revenge killers can be set up for, but Thundurus needs just 1 HP and 1 moveslot to do this and that's not something I think is realistic.

But this isn't really that relevant of an issue, because the lead set has no room for T wave. Wait, what if your team doesn't need a lead?

Froslass has answers for everything:
Stall
-Taunt
-Toxic
-Block

Offense
-T Wave
-Destiny Bond
-Confuse Ray
-Attract

Heck, there might be some validity to a rest talk set that's a total gimmick, but will get some mediocre players a win.

I especially want to bring attention to the offense moves (T wave, Confuse Ray, and Attract). You said in your post that you dislike luck based games (I disagree completely on the context, if you outmaneuver someone, I call it strategic playing, but I digress), so you should be aware if we vote for Froslass, you WILL lose a match to some cheap scape using a variation of swagplay because he's bored and wants to win a match without earning it.

I ADORE the lead set. If it were in the meta I'd love it, but Prankster is an ability so easily abused to turn matches into migraines. Just something to consider.

As always bud, love the posts and as much as i dislike thundy, it isnt place to discuss.

The pure offensive set is something i was considering as with great STABs Fross could do quite a bit (wish its Sp. Atk was higher) making me wonder how much or to what extent she could do. So many things to do, not nough slots sadly.

 

[Master B8s]

Regenerator Blissey: God damn is this thing bulky now. But in all honesty its a buff needed to surpass Chansey. Usually Alomamola was the best wish passer imo because it had regenerator to stay healthy, so it wasn't too reliant on its own wishes and could afford to give the wishes to a teammate more often. Blissey is pretty much the new troll fish with Regenerator, and it's shitty defense isn't a problem if you run a BlissBro core, which is now a regenerator core.

Prankster Frosslass-Probably the perfect suicide lead with this. If it has a sash, it guarantees at least 2 layers of spikes, while being at 115 speed, so it's not shut down by prankster taunt anymore, being the fastest common prankster, behind whimsicott, but I havnt seen those anywhere. But prankster destiny bond pretty much scares away priority users from the revenge kill, or they risk being killed with it. Taunt also stops pokemon from toxic stalling it while you destiny bond. This does make hyper offense that like spikes support very easy to use, and seeing how offensive the meta is now, I might steer away from voting for this one.

Sticky Web Fortress- Kinda weak theorymon here. Sure it has access to all entry hazards now, but fortress eats up so much momentum that a skilled opponent will rapid spin or Defog the hazards away before you get them up, while its still very weak on the special side, and with no recovey, it'll get worn down fast. It doesn't pack too much offense either so you don't force too many things out. Fortress isn't doing anything different than it does in UU, it sets up hazards and can spin them away, and that didn't make it viable in OU, so sticky web doesn't help it there.

Tinted lens Flygon- It's dragon stabs are unresisted now, which is cool, but ground switch ins are usually covered with an immunity like levitate/flying type rather than a resistance. The only really viable mon that resists ground is chestnaught, and flygon can't break him anyway. It's attack is very lack luster at 100, and it's speed is just too average at 100. It also looses its ground immunity which is a loss no matter how you see it. If you're using flygon offensivly, It just still seems out classed by garchomp, who has better attack, slightly more speed and better bulk. It gets Defog which is something I guess.

$0.02

 

[Sun King]

I gotta say, come voting time, I'm gonna be hurting for what to vote for. While I'm obviously attached to my own ideas in Sticky Web Forry and Prankster Frosslass, I cannot simply ignore the enormity of a buff in Regenerator Blissey. Part of why I'm so stuck is each add something really really cool to the metagame, and it's a damn shame we can't just add them all.

• Blissey adds a component of much-needed longevity for offensive teams while at the same time taking a teamslot away from offense (which I like a lot as a defensive player). It's also really good for ALL playstyles, being a great cleric for defensive and balanced teams.

• Forretress breathes new life into Sticky Web as a play style. I would say that the number one thing holding Sticky Web back is its AWFUL distribution with nothing good to use it. Forretress is a great user of the move, as it has access to the rare slow Volt-Switch--giving you switch initiative (similar to BP before the nerf). Once again, I'd like to reiterate that this is a buff to Sticky Web more so than a buff to Forretress.

• Frosslass is, as we've all been saying, the perfect lead. On top of that it adds a one-time full stop to ANY sweeper (save sweeping Talonflame sets). Access to a potent Destiny Bond would ALONE give it a niche in OU, but access to Taunt and Spikes allows Frosslass to function extremely well early game. I'm kind of wanting to draw comparisons to Deo-D, but honestly, Frosslass is just better at setting Spikes. The only downside is the lack of SR.

TL;DR: Blissey allows offensive teams to last longer via massive WishBombs; Sticky Web starts seeing some use in OU; Sweepers are now afraid to set up on the best hazard layer since Deoxys. I really hate having to choose between the three of these.

 

[skup]

Tinted Lens Flygon sounds really awful too me, and id hate to see it win the slate considering im 99% sure it would be totally irrelevant. There's only four OU relevant ground resists in total - Mega Heracross, Celebi, Breloom, and Chesnaught. EQ spam is almost always checked by a levitater/flying type (occasionally air balloon users for certain offensive teams) which seriously make up a good third or so of OU. Theres a lot more dragon resists (Heatran, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Bisharp), but really the only relevant things here are that Mega Sciz cant switch in on Flygon, and it becomes more capable of cleaning late game. EQ already annihilates some of the steels anyways, so its risky for them too switch in on it.

The other issue with Flygon is the existance of Scarf Lando-T... who basically completely outclasses it. Scarf Lando-T can check a big chunk of OU's physical attackers due to its defensive typing and intimidate, can force a lot of OU out with EQ alone, and is one of the most reliable ways of gaining momentum with U-Turn. Flygon can basically switch into fuck all in OU, especially when you take away its ground immunity, on top of this, Lando-T's scarf set is about as powerful as Flygon's band set, and isnt stuck at an absolutely terrible speed tier. Band is too slow too do anything too offense, and scarf is too weak too hurt what Flygon wants too hurt, your Flygon is basically going too have a terrible match up against at least one team type no matter what set you use.

tl;dr - flygon suxs and tinted lens isnt enough to unsuck it

 

[SparksBlade]

Regenerator Blissey: I don't think it needs any buff actually. It's not bad, just outclassed a bit by EvioChansey(which surprises me with Knock Off being so good). Actually, i think it complicates Blissey a bit. No Natural Cure means it can now be brought down by status, and thus needs to pack Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. It already will use Wish, and Protect mostly comes with Wish, so you have only one moveslot left, which will either be filled by Toxic, or by an attack to prevent being Taunt weak(also maybe Stealth Rock but that's not good on this Blissey i think).

Prankster Frosslass: Another one that got a bit too much buff imo. Frosslass is already quite fast and a decent lead. With Prankster, it becomes deadly. Unlike it's lead set, i think it'll become a bit like Sableye and Mega Gengar now i.e. statusing and Destiny Bond. It'll retain Spikes, but now its job is easier, a tad bit too much i guess. I think it may become a bit too much centralizing, so no for his as well.

Sticky Web Forretress: Ah, my poor poor child, what has become of you. Ever since Ferrothorn came into being, it has been forgotten except for Rapid Spin support. Giving it Sticky Web can bring it back into viability, as the problem with Sticky Web atm is the users-they just not that good outside of it. Sticky Web Forry is a Godsend for many Pokemon that rely on the speed drop e.g. Lucario. This is definitely the Chosen One.

Tinted Lens Flygon: Still doesn't make the cut. It's still inferior to Garchomp, and the Band set really suffers now that both its STABs have got immunities. Needs to much support from the team to get rid of certain checks and counters, and Skarmories and Togekiss's, doesn't pull its own weight. Only a Mega can save it from obscurity.

 

[Sun King]

Okay y'all time for voting! If you've forgotten the slate, it is

• Blissey + Regenerator
• Frosslass + Prankster
• Forretress + Sticky Web
• Flygon + Tinted Lens

As before, please remember to bold your votes like the following vote:

Frosslass + Prankster.

After much deliberation, I have decided to vote for Frosslass because I believe it will shake the tier up the most. I think that it will fit in really nicely in the current OU meta, and it would be cool to have such a good revenge killer and hazard layer wrapped up in one neat little package.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Froslass + Prankster

 

[Salemance]

.............this goes gainst every fiber of my body, but lets ride to hell together!

Regenerator Blissey!


I may not forgive myself but whatever. :D

 

[Chronobreak]

Hmm I will admit I am a bit salty cuz I sent Prankster Froslass to Unfixable when he was in charge of the project, and it never got in. Still...
Froslass + Prankster

Hey guys, welcome to Prankster Froslass's delivery service, where everything comes first, no tricks involved. We are always first to place Spikes, and can taunt faster than the most arrogant Olympic sprinters. And just when you think you've gotten rid of us, you realize we threw down a bond of destiny before you can blink. Bye bye lead, hello 5v5!

 

[boltsandbombers]

Frosslass + Prankster

 

[Anduril]

Ah hell, here goes nothing Sticky Web Forretress

 

[Valmanway]

Prankster Froslass

 

[Hogg]

Sticky Web Forretress

EDIT: Or FORRETRESS + STICKY WEB, if you'd prefer.

 

[Yayz]

Forretress + Sticky Web

Sticky Web Forretress

I believe you have to write exactly what's on the slate, so change it to Forretress + Sticky Web. :)

 

[Salemance]

Forretress + Sticky Web



I believe you have to write exactly what's on the slate, so change it to Forretress + Sticky Web. :)

You don't have to. I could write this and it would count as my vote:

I vote for the most fabulous, amazing, and stupidly deranged buff in Regenerator Blissey in order so I can just go around being silly and stupid and la da de!

Not the exact wording I would use of course, but you get the point :D

 

[Red Cat]

Regenerator Blissey because longer battles are more enjoyable.

 

[Sun King]

Forretress + Sticky Web



I believe you have to write exactly what's on the slate, so change it to Forretress + Sticky Web. :)

Yeah I just want people to bold them because it's easier to just scroll down and count faster.

 

[SirSkit]

Forretress + Sticky Web

 

[dwarfstar]

Forretress + Sticky Web

 

[Celticpride]

Frosslass + Prankster, mostly because Regenerator Blissey should never be a thing. Ever. Even in Theorymon.

 

[Yayz]

Yeah I just want people to bold them because it's easier to just scroll down and count faster.

Ah. For some reason I just assumed that some code did it, and it had to be perfect. I blame the CAP project.