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Screw the rules. I might not be on the council, but I have fucking money.
Anyhow, it was always going to happen. When Parental Bond was designed in ASB, many users had concerns, but no one really had the guts to bring it up after some time, until Arcanite rose his concerns in Feedback. The fact that he was concerned about how overpowered Parental Bond was pretty much validated the fears that many ASB users had: Parental Bond is terribly overpowered (and poorly designed). Why is it overpowered (and poorly designed)? Read the effect:
Parental Bond
Type: Passive
This Pokemon's mother and child team strike with each of their attacks. The second attack has half (0.5x) the BAP of the first (do not round). The second strike will not do spillover damage on a Substitute that would not be broken by the first attack, but any effect on Mega Kangaskhan or the opponent (such as Power-Up Punch's Attack boost or Body Slam's paralysis chance) is checked two times. Only attacks that strike a single target are doubled by Parental Bond.
Yeah that says a lot. Not only will several restrictions need to be put in place on what it boosts (given how vague & poorly designed Parental Bond is), but it will also need to be nerfed, whether it be a BAP reduction, an Energy cost increase, or whatever.
The aim of this discussion is to come up with a balanced, better designed version of Parental Bond that is less vague in what it boosts, & is drastically less overpowered than what it is now (iirc, it even boosts combinations). If you want to defend the current version, go ahead, but you really need to be convincing & not put up something terrible like "no one uses Mega Kangaskhan".
General forum rules apply here, so things like flaming other users may result in you getting infracted. Otherwise, have at it folks.
<IAR> "The second strike will not do spillover damage on a Substitute that would not be broken by the first attack"
<waterwarrior> well, at least we know that Captain Obvious is here with us in the NDA
<waterwarrior> i'm pretty sure someone should take the second not out...
<waterwarrior> but right now it reads "If a Substitute is still intact when the second strike hits, it will not do spillover damage"
<waterwarrior> which is just common sense really
I think that adding an extra EN cost to Parental Bond would balance it quite nicely. I think that the amount should probably be 50%, rounded down (ex: Earthquake would be 15 BAP for 10 EN). This keeps it in line with moves with similar BAPs to the adjusted attack, but at the same time doesn't account for the boosted effects.
Also, I think that it should probably be changed to Toggle, because it would be really easy to EN stall a mon with this if even its weakest moves cost 1.5x the normal EN cost. Sure, this fact does balance it out a little more, but I think it might be more cost than benefit in a case like that.
Allow me to state one thing. Part of this discussion stems from the existence of the move Skill Swap and the Ability Trace. Just because "no one uses Mega Kangaskhan" does not make it a balanced ability. The current version, should it be Traced by Gardevoir (and by extension, Mega Gardevoir) or Mega Alakazam, is over powered. Since Parental Bond would give +2 ATK when used with Power-Up Punch, one could reason that it would be 2 Ice Balls, 2 Rollouts, 2 Rounds, 2 Echoed Voices, 2 Fury Cutters, 2 Trump Cards... It escalates very quickly.
I believe Gerard provided a good suggestion in the feedback thread, and I'll let him expound upon it further.
Let me start by posting again the current formula of Parental Bond:
(BP x 1.5) + (Rank Difference x 2) + ([IF] STAB x 2) + ([IF] Crit x 2) + (Ability boosts x 2) + (Stat Boosts x 2) + (Item Boost x 2)
Now, MegaKhan has access to Focus Energy, which means +6 dmg before multipliers when PB is active (And with it's impressive movepool you're likely looking at a 9 dmg boost). He's got access to Power-up Punch which means +8 final dmg to every attack afterwards. Mud Slap reducing your opponents accuracy to 60% in one turn. Icy Wind, Bulldoze & Rock Tomb, all reducing it's speed by 2 stages. She even has Mimic so whatever weird move you're trying to use she can use it as long as she has a partner. And that's before her natural rank difference which is easy to get to +9 against an average mon (+13.5 if SE x.x)
This is without even getting to Doubles. Kecleon can Skill Swap protean unto MegaKhan, thus giving it Double STAB on every move. Blissey can SW Serene Grace, so now you're looking at a headbutt with 84% chance to flinch. If you're slower than something Starmie can give you Analytic. Use Venomoth, Butterfree, Mothing or Sygiliph to get Tinted lens and start spamming your Normal STAB without caring about "resist". You can even use Spinda, get Tangled Feet and spam Thrash or use Contrary and spam Hammer Arm (well, at least we're lucky this gal didn't get superpower). All that's not even saying what you can swap into, a regular Gallade can get +4 in all attacks thanks to expert belt along with dual rank difference, Spinda gets +2/+2 thanks to superpower, Silveon/MeGardevoir gets +4 Normal attacks thanks to Pixilate, And this is without considering the escalating attacks akela touched upon. I could go on and on and on, but I think it's obvious MegaKangaskhan makes a pretty good user of the ability all by himself (seriously why wouldn't you use this girl, he's got everything you could be looking for).
It's easy to see that even changing the dmg increase to BP x 1.5 it would still make Parental Bond the best boosting ability in the game, even Huge Power only boosts your attack by 4.5 when PB has the ability to boost regular moves like Return, Stone Edge & Earthquake by 5, while the Elemental Punches, Crunch, Body Slam etc... are boosted by 4 with a better change to activate it's secondary effects and ability to bypass subs, every other ability is miles behind only giving a +2 or in some cases +3 dmg boosts, while depending on the move it could raise BP up to 7.5 (Focus Punch), and that's without even getting into combos...
I'm behind the Energy increase as well, it's actually pretty fair, Fire Punch for example would be 12 BP for 9 energy, compare to Fire Blast 12 BP for 8 en with worst acc and a slightly worst burning chance. Thrash being 18 dmg for 11 energy after STAB (the same as V-Create), EQ coming on top with 15 dmg for 10.5 en (about the en cost of Pyroak's Flare Blitz before STAB) and FP reaching 22.5 BP in exchange of 15 energy, that's like a small combo right there. I think 50% increase in energy would be fine (and I agree with it being toggle)
But even outside of that there are some things we need to discuss:
How are we gonna deal with Endeavor, Bide & Counter?
If Helping hand is used on a mon with PB does it raise the BP of the first move or both?
In doubles+ (or in singles against double team) are spread moves gonna do 1 or 2 hits?
If we follow in game in the last and make it so spread moves only hit once then does it still cost the extra energy when this moves are used? (I think the answer would be no but it doesn't hurt to ask)
Does Skull bash grant +2 defense?
What happens with Echo Voice, Ice Ball, etc...?
What happens with moves that lock the user (Thrash, Outrage, Uproar)? Do the second hit counts towards their counter?
What happens with Fling? (I know MK can't use it but SW mons can) Does the second hit never happens because there's no longer an item?
Is Knock Off BP only boosted for the first hit or is it too for the second? (The opponent doesn't have an item so would the first Knock off be 10 BP while the second is 3.5 BP (unboosted 7 divided for 2)
Would Brine get it's power boosted if the first Brine reduced the hp of the target below 50%?
I know there might be a lot of things I'm not thinking about but I'll leave it there because I have to sleep :3
How are we gonna deal with Endeavor, Bide & Counter?
If Helping hand is used on a mon with PB does it raise the BP of the first move or both?
In doubles+ (or in singles against double team) are spread moves gonna do 1 or 2 hits?
If we follow in game in the last and make it so spread moves only hit once then does it still cost the extra energy when this moves are used? (I think the answer would be no but it doesn't hurt to ask)
Does Skull bash grant +2 defense?
What happens with Echo Voice, Ice Ball, etc...?
What happens with moves that lock the user (Thrash, Outrage, Uproar)? Do the second hit counts towards their counter?
What happens with Fling? (I know MK can't use it but SW mons can) Does the second hit never happens because there's no longer an item?
Is Knock Off BP only boosted for the first hit or is it too for the second? (The opponent doesn't have an item so would the first Knock off be 10 BP while the second is 3.5 BP (unboosted 7 divided for 2)
Would Brine get it's power boosted if the first Brine reduced the hp of the target below 50%?
I know there might be a lot of things I'm not thinking about but I'll leave it there because I have to sleep :3
Endeavour, Bide, Counter, & any other damaging move that has a variable fixed damage parameter should only be hitting once, which can be done through a clause that limits Parental Bond's influence to Single-target single hit moves (multi-hit moves are not boosted by Parental Bond ingame) with a BAP or a constant damage. Spread Moves always hit once as per precedent ingame; the clause covers it. Moves not influenced by Parental Bond should not have their energy cost bumped up. Skull Bash could double Defence (I am on the fence with this). I do not really know about Echoed Voice, though I do not think the second attack will have raised BAP. Rollout & Ice Ball only increase BAP on consecutive uses, so the second hit will have half the first BAP of the first. The second hit of an Outrage should not go towards the counter, meaning one Outrage total. The second hit of Fling will always fail unless the user also has Pickup (The timing of Pickup is immediate in ASB). Knock Off should only be boosted for the first hit. Brine would allow the second hit to have double power if the first drops the target to below 50%.
Basically from my response to the questions, this would mean that Parental Bond would considered one attack that hits in two parts, where the entire attack only counts as one use of a move. It would also only affect Single-target, single-hit moves that either have a non-zero BAP or a non-variable fixed damage. At the moment. This at least should give us a good base as to how to limit Parental Bond's reach, as well as solve some grey areas with some moves.
The Energy Increase, the DMG nerf, & Toggle Ability (Only if we bump the Energy Cost up) are all obvious (in the case of the first two), & are good suggestions. To those who are pro-toggle, I have a couple of questions:
What would be the other effect if there is any? (There are two sides to a Toggle Ability!)
Rollout & Ice Ball only increase BAP on consecutive uses, so the second hit will have half the first BAP of the first ..... Brine would allow the second hit to have double power if the first drops the target to below 50%.
I'd agree on the Rollout and Ice Ball, but not Brine. I think if we're taking Parental Bond as a single move that basically just turn a one-hit single-target attack into a two-hit single-target attack, then all effects should be dependent on the first, original instance of the move.
So, with Parental Bond, we have 12 BAP 19% effect elemental punches (stacking effects turn it into 19% not 20), +2 Atk 6 BAP Power-up-Punches, +2 Def 19.5 BAP Skull Bash... I'm in favour of upping the EN cost. I doubt Parental Bond mons need to Toggle that Ability - it is unlikely that an opponent will be able to EN stall when Parental Bond ensures extremely high chances of winning an outright damage race.
Also, I'm seeing one issue where Gerard didn't raise up... What's gonna happen with Parental Bond Tail Slap? Do we simply take the BAP sum and halve it to get the second attack? Do we calculate crit chances (potentially) 10 times in total?
Multi-hit moves are not boosted by Parental Bond in-game, so it would make sense to not make them be affected by Parental Bond in ASB, as I have indirectly addressed in my previous post.
You guys are all just whining about a Normal type being as strong as most Dragon types. Shut up and l2p noobs.
Ahem, joking aside, I think the fairest way to do this would be an energy increase. I think something like +3 flat energy or some small fraction (wouldn't go above 1/2) of the move's normal energy should be enough.
Many toggle abilities have no effect when turned off, I don't see why this can't be one of them (since the positive effect would be that your attacks wouldn't cost so much energy), as tbh I can't think of a good effect
In general I support an EN Increase to make the effect match that of Technician for relevant boosted moves, and I would not be adverse to it being a scaling cost, like increase EN by Added BP / 2 (round down). I think making it a toggle ability would be unwise. You can choose whether to Mega-Evolve Kangaskhan or not, after all, and with a scaled increase to relevant moves, smart play will allow you to avoid eating the EN cost.
To put this in perspective, Body Slam From MegaKanga vs...say...Pinsir (random 4def mon) deals a good (9+3+1.5)+(4.5+3+1.5)= 22.5 for around 6 energy.
MegaMawile deals 17hp of damage on the same situation with Play Rough and has (arguably) much worse stats.
Silk Scarf Cincinno (a fucking nuke) deals (4*5+3-1.5) +4= 25.5hp with Tail Slap for 11 energy. Without the handy 51% chance of paralysis and with shitty 90/3/2/3/2/115 to compensate.
Moon Stone Adaptability Delcatty deals, with Double Edge, 12+3+4+2-1.5= 19.5hp of damage. With shitty 100/3/3/2/2/70 stats to compensate. And it is also regarded as a nuke.
I honestly think we should nerf the damage output as well. For example, in-game it halves the entire damage, not just BAP (due to the way it calculated damage). Here we halve only the BAP for extra power.
I believe we should divide the entire thing by half (so, on the above example, it deals 20.25hp of damage, which is still pretty good). AND add extra energy cost (3-5). And that for starters as it still gets the effects twice and Kangaskhan still has a kickass stat spread.
My proposal that probably has a million holes but w/e (Comments are in italics):
Also I know Deck and Frosty posted but I was already writing it up so I'm posting anyway.
Default: For all single-target single-hit attacks (an "attack" is considered any move that deals direct damage) with a BAP greater than one or that deal constant damage, the BAP or constant damage is multiplied by 1.5. If the move has a secondary effect (changing the user's stats, changing the opponent's stats, or inflicting status upon the opponent), it is checked twice. Critical hits are also checked twice. If a move has an indirectly variable BAP and the attack would cause the BAP of future uses to change before the additional BAP, crit check, or effect check, then the change will be applied two the BAP of the second BAP, before it is halved. However, if the first attack has a directly variable BAP, the BAP change will not be changed and the attack's BAP will only be changed once for future uses of the move. (I don't really know how how phrase this, see the bottom for some notes.) In addition, any effects that occur on (certain) attacks suck as Rough Skin and Poison Point will be checked twice, assuming the effect applies to the attack being used. However, If the first attack would break a substitute, then the second will do spillover damage on the target. In this case, any effects that do not apply when attacking a substitute will only be checked once. If a combo is used, there will be two turns of cooldown instead of one. (Not sure about that part.) Any attack effected by this ability will have an additional energy cost of [Additional EN Cost]. I have a few ideas for the additional EN cost, so here goes (All are added to the original EN cost):
Half (x0.5) of the original EN cost.
The second BAP.
Half the first BAP.
One-third (x0.33) of the original EN cost (This happens to be my preferred method).
One-fourth (x0.25) of the original EN cost.
A constant amount of energy.
The damage formula ends up looking like:
BAP + BAP * 0.5 (new BAP if an indirect variable BAP attack) + [IF] STAB + [IF] Crit (roll 1) + [IF] Crit (roll 2) + Rank Difference + Ability Boosts + Item Boosts
Alternate: (I have a few options here)
Nothing
Not a toggle ability
For all single-target single-hit attacks (an "attack" is considered any move that deals direct damage) with a BAP greater than one or that deal constant damage, the attacker's child aids the parent, adding their strengths together. The child has the same attack rank as 3/4 of the rank of the first member of the parent's line, rounded half up, with the same nature as the parent. (This part needs to be worked on, what I wanted to get out was the idea of a higher rank.) This is considered a single-hit attack for all purposes, including but not limited to substitutes, effects, and critical hits.
Note on Direct and Indirect variable BAPs:
First, a variable BAP attack is any attack that has a formula or multiple possible values for the BAP.
The attack is directly variable if a use of the attack is codified to increase the damage of the attack in future uses, such as Echoed voice adding four to the BAP of future echoed voices. Note: If a combo of the two pledges is used (only Smeargle can do this), it is considered directly variable for this purpose. For example, if a Parental bond mon uses Echoed Voice with the default setting the first BAP will be 4 BAP and the second will be 2 (4 * 0.5).
The attack is indirectly variable if its BAP depends on something such as status (like Facade or Venoshock), HP (like Return or Frustration), weight (such as Body Slam), or anything else. For example, if a Parental Bond mon uses Return with the default setting with less health than the opponent, and the attack would cause the opponent to go below the attacker's health, then the second BAP will be 8 and the second will be 5 (10 * 0.5).
Probably someone can write this up better than I can and with some flavor stuff, which has to happen if this idea gets accepted. Comments?
16hp of which thanks to one Power-Up Punch which was something I forgot. Due to parental bond, what was supposed to be +1, becomes +2 as Power-Up Punch hits twice. AND then that +2 becomes +4, because of the way we calc stage boosts.
How do we handle it's power?
a) Keep it as is
b) Just Increase the Energy Cost
c) Frosty Proposal: Increase the Energy Cost and halve the entire damage (not just BAP) of the second hit. Check effects and crits twice, adversing abilities such as Rough Skin or Poison Point are triggered twice, deals spillover damage.
d) Starwarsfan Proposal: Increase Energy Cost. Second attack consists solely of BAP/2, check effects and crits twice, adversing abilities such as Rough Skin or Poison Point are triggered twice, deals spillover damage.
e) There are too many questions...can't we just ban this already? (j/k)
f) Back to the drawing board.
How much do you increase the energy cost?
a)Half the Energy Cost of the original move
b)Half the BAP of the original move
c)The BAP of the second attack (May be different depending on how the following poll goes)
d)1/3 of the original BAP cost
e)1/4 of the original BAP cost
f)+3 energy flat
g)+5 energy flat
h)Don't increase Energy Cost
i)Back to the drawing board.
How do we handle Endeavour, Wring Out, Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat and Metal Burst and other similar moves I forgot?
a) Isn't changed at all by the ability
b) Handle it as two hits (Endeavor and Wring Out strikes twice, with the second hit having half BAP; other moves fail on the second hit)
c) Back to the drawing board
How do we handle Brine, Echoed Voice, Trump Card, Rollout, Ice Ball, the Item Metronome and other similar stuff I forgot?
a) Second hit gets the applicable boost
b) Second hit = First hit/2. Doesn't count as an additional hit as well (so if Rollout-Rollout, the first starts at 4BAP and the second at 8BAP, even if each attack hits twice).
c) Back to the drawing board
Basically from my response to the questions, this would mean that Parental Bond would considered one attack that hits in two parts, where the entire attack only counts as one use of a move. It would also only affect Single-target, single-hit moves that either have a non-zero BAP or a non-variable fixed damage. At the moment. This at least should give us a good base as to how to limit Parental Bond's reach, as well as solve some grey areas with some moves.
Nobody has really objected to this, & this definition encompasses all those clarifications. But it seems like no one read the first few posts of this thread...
There are also some other aspects we have not considered in terms of the boost, which I will bring up now for discussion:
Treating Parental Bond as a regular multi-hit move, only checking for effects after the final attack, & granting trample damage.
We can affect how much the second part of the attack works here, such as the second hit only having 3 BAP, etc.
Or we can keep the two different attacks here, but cap or fix the BAP of the second attack. Something like 3 BAP here can keep the strong attacks from becoming super powerful here.
Speaking of caps or fixes, we can cap the increase in final damage here if we go down that route.
There are some other aspects we can consider here.
Consensus says an EC increase is necessary, so the increase should be hammered out. As well as the boost handling.
It should also be pointed out that with the current Parental Bond, the opponent's (Sp.) Defence Rank & (Sp.) Defence Stage are both amplified here to the point where Pokémon like Regirock & Steelix simply do not care about Mega Kangaskhan. Both of these Pokémon only take 7 Damage from an Adamant +0 Brick Break for example, assuming neutral defence. It also means that a Defence Boost is amplified, so a +2 Defence Boost is actually a +4 Defence boost in reality. On the other hand, those with less Defence than Adamant Mega Kangaskhan's attack (Read: ~90% of the Pokémon) take way more damage...
Consider the 72 hour warning overruled. We need to get the tourney started, yes, but there are still some aspects that we have not covered. Also the increased activity in this thread makes such a warning unnecessary.
Right, so after doing some massive damage to Texas, I suppose I can concede that maybe this ability is just a bit broken. Still, I would like us to make sure we don't go too heavy on the nerfs, lest we make Mega Kanga...not unusable, but outclassed. To that end, I'd heavily suggest adding an energy cost increase (+3 flat sounds fine to me) on moves affected by Parental Bond, and simply having the second hit do half the damage of the first hit, having a trampling effect if possible. I personally see Mega Kanga as being similar to Cinccino, doing heavy damage, but running out of steam relatively fast.
Another thing I would like us to consider is how this ability is Traced. Currently, there's a lot of debate about skill swapping this ability onto something much more devastating (Aegislash anyone?). I think the best answer to this is just to make it untraceable ala Wonder Guard, simply to avoid giving another Pokemon a crazy powerful advantage. As for Ditto...I think that needs to be covered by a separate thread but for now I'd say let it copy Parental Bond.
1) You want to implement this right away? This is still a considerable change in the mechanics of an ability. I can't see it being decided by...uh..."general consensus". And saying "yo, Council, I don't want you voting on this" is at least rude, considering that we vote tweaks on abilities on a regular basis.
2) Discussion is to discuss. It is not "if you don't discuss I will just approve this anyway". That is voting. Also, if you read SWF's proposition, variable moves are affected by Parental Bond, so you can consider it "objection". And yes, I have fucking read your post and all posts like four times, so don't go assuming that, k? Makes you look kinda bad.
In other words, points 3, 4 and 5 do warrant discussion and voting. Point 3 maybe not (I included it for completeness-sake), but 4 and 5 yeah.
3) The last post with new ideas was 5 days ago, so forgive me if I don't consider this activity enough. The warning was called for, as the discussion has staled.
That being said:
1) If you want a cap, go with a cap for final damage. If you cap only the BAP, you will make stuff such as STAB and (more important) power boosts a bit too hard to tweak.
2) I don't see mons with great defense as a factor here, unless you go against ingame and consider this one single hit (always a possibility). If two hits are used, then the ability will mean, at least, 1 extra damage (since minimum damage is 1). Also, the person that keeps Kangaskhan in vs Steelix or Regirock either goes with special attacks, has a plan or deserves a nice lobotomy.
Also, Texas brings a valid point: does anyone know how ingame treats Brine, Rollout and the like with Parental Bond?
We don't know yet, so either we manage to get someone with access to the game to try it soon (it doesn't seem too hard Starmie can have Skill Swap and Brine, Solrock/Lunetone for Rollout, etc...) or make an interim rule for it until we have the info (it's not like we'll be finding the situation to come out too often considering how hard it is to use)
Ps: MegaKhan has a very usable rank 3 SpA, and a multitude of high powered special moves (16.5 BP Fire Blast seems just fine for Steelix)
Core issues with Parental Bond come in the fact that it's a free and very powerful strength boost, and some boosting attacks (Power-Up Punch) become very strong indeed.
I feel an energy increase is not important, depending on how we go about this - the raw concerns with P.B. are rooted in power, which generally speaking energy isn't a concern for - most ASB battles are only decided by EN if someone pulls of an Encore or meddles with too many combos.
I actually have an alternative idea to balance out Parental Bond (I think this is the largest nerf to the ability proposed?), making the ability still very strong, but not overwhelming:
Treat Parental Bond as a non locking combo of Choice Specs and Choice Band, giving stat boosts, and then only make a single calculation per strike. This mimics our current stance on +50%, which the in-game Parental Bond is in most given scenarios. This also removes issues with Power Up Punch being a +2 with a ton of damage, whilst maintaining the usability of the ability. The downside is that it's not entirely ideal for flavour based reasons, but I'm sure we could fluff it as the baby sharing it's power. This also handles any given issue with Endeavor, Rollout, etc.
My other idea would be to mimic Frosty's proposal, but to remove effect activation on the second hit, which prevents issues with the aforementioned Power Up Punch.
I'd also like to say that the stronger we make this, the more I'd like to have the ability to be non-traceable. But that's my thoughts on the matter as it stands.
IMO, the best way to nerf Parental Bond's damage is, like some people have said, reducing the total damage by half.
The reason is that Parental Bond is not this overly powerful because the BAP is counted twice, but because boosts and rank differences AND STAB are.
Let's take a low defense mon as example. A Diglett will suffice.
Mega Kangaskhan, with a neutral nature, has a Rank 5 Atk. This means that, vs Diglett's rank 1 defense, he gets a nice 6 extra damage per hit. Note the "per hit". Since Parental Bond means he gets 2 hit, he is actually getting +12 extra damage on the poor thing with just the rank difference. While this is certainly an extreme example, it does show the point: rank differences are doubled, not multiplied by 1.5.
Let's now take a look to a high defense mon. A Steelix (because not everyone has a Regirock). Rank 9 defense means he is actually DEDUCTING damage by the rank difference, and that this reduction is applied twice. Since the BAP is lower, this may mean that the damage of the second hit may be LOWER than half the damage of the first hit. You may think this sorts of balances the damage, but here is where the second issue raises.
Stat Boosts.
As Frosty and Texas and other people have said, this is a BIG issue. Because of the way we calc damage, Stat Boosts give a boost to the final damage, which means that Type Effectiveness, Ranks, Burns, ALMOST NOTHING reduces this added damage. And, because of the way Parental Bond works right now, this damage is applied twice as well.
So, +2, which Mega Kanga can easily get with Power-Up-Punch, counts twice, so he gets a +8 FINAL damage on every physical, single target, single hit attack. Now, that's if it sets up only once. What if it is allowed to set up some more? After two PUP, you're looking at +8 Damage PER HIT, and after three (I don't think doing this is too hard), you're looking at +12 Damage for each HIT, which means a wooping 72 extra damage per round, which is sick. If you don't take it down FAST, it WILL take AT LEAST one mon down, probably leaving another heavily injured.
In case you want some calcs...
+0 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (4 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 = 0.75, so 1 Damage, which is kind of pathetic. Another 1 Damage thanks to Parental Bond, because it is the minimal damage.
Now if it has set-up... +2 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (4 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 4 = 3.25, OR 4.75 Damage since I don't know what happens in this situation. +2 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix (Parental Bond hit): (2 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 4 = .25 Daage, so 1, OR 4, since I don't know what happens in this situation.
So, 3.5/8.75 Damage between both hits.
+4 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (4 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 8 = 7.25, OR 8.75 Damage since I don't know what happens in this situation. +4 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix (Parental Bond hit): (2 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 8 = 4.25, or 8, since I don't know what happens in this situation.
So, 11.5/16.75 Damage between both hits.
+6 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (4 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 12 = 11.25, OR 12.75 Damage since I don't know what happens in this situation. +6 PUP Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix (Parental Bond hit): (2 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 12 = 8.25, or 12, since I don't know what happens in this situation.
So, 19.5/24.75 Damage between both hits.
So, not that impressive until +6, right? But consider that this is against a Steelix, one of the most physicaly defensive mons in the whole game, and that the calcs use PUP, a move with a measly 4 BP. What if Mega Kangaskhan uses Hammer Arm? Then the damage is higger:
+0 Hammer Arm Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (10 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 = 8.25 Damage +0 Hammer Arm Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix (Parental Bond hit): (5 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 = .75 Damage
So, 9 Damage
+2 Hammer Arm Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (10 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 4 = 12.25 Damage +2 Hammer Arm Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix (Parental Bond hit): (5 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 4 = 4.75 Damage
So, 17 Damage,
The damage keeps increasing by 8 per PUP use (+2 boost). Now this is something to see..
+6 Hammer Arm Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix: (10 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 12 = 20.25 Damage +6 Hammer Arm Neutral Mega Kanghaskan vs Neutral Steelix (Parental Bond hit): (5 + 7.5 - 12) * 1.5 + 12 = 12.75 Damage
So, a wooping 33 Damage with a single attack.
Yeah, yeah, you may say: "I won't let it set up against my Steelix!". But that's another point to have in mind: what if it sets up against another mon? Maybe finish a badly injured one with PUP, getting a "free" +2 boost. At +6, it can wreck even Steelix. And not everyone carries one around.
AGAIN, THIS CALCS ARE AGAINST ONE OF THE MOST PHYSICALY DEFENSIVE POKÉMON IN THE GAME!
Anything with an average defense rank (4 maybe) or that doesn't resist its STAB (because, remember, STAB is counted twice too) is going to be absolutely DESTROYED. He even has GREAT coverage: being around since gen I means he has a lot of options to choose from.
And it isn't easy to take down, either: 110/4/4 Defenses is pretty darn bulky.
With a little set up and against a not-so-bulky mon, the second hit is dealing way more than just half the damage of the first hit.
By making the second hit deal half the damage of the first, the damage is noticeably decreased. It also makes sense, since in the catridges the second hit is just half the damage of the first hit.
And this is not even talking about the effect chance of things like Body Slam and Headbutt, and the fact that it can go through substitutes and other things, but I feel I have rambled enough.
There are still issues, but I think that making this adjustment would be a very good first step. I also agree about the energy cost inccrease, since Parental Bond has so many benefits with no drawbacks, that it makes it feel kind of unfair for things like Technician.
Now, I'll shut up because even I am getting tired of hearing myself.
Seems that halving final damage of the parent, for the child's attack, along with an energy increase are popular options. We should talk about if halving damage is actually less broken and what kind of energy increase we want.
