Platinum Changing the Accuracy of Hypnosis: The Effect on the Metagame

[Darkmalice]

60% accuracy sucks. Full stop. I never even used Hypnosis when it had 70%. With Gengar, I always had Destiny Bond isntead, for that commonly netted me a surprise kill, whilst a Hypnosis miss frequently lead to Gengar's horrible demise.

Bronzong got nerfed by the Hypnosis. It's bulky enough to use it, but a lack of recovery hurts. This is keeping in mind that the increased Trick and Heatran usage also hurt it. Though it is Bronzong's great support moves and Leviate ability that are the main things making it stand out from Metagross (the extra special bulk is small). Hypnosis' nerf meant more people went for Metagross instead. And guess what? Metagross is now the #1 lead.

Milotic had two key factors separating her from the rest of the bulky water crew - Recover and Hypnosis. The lowering of the accuracy made that horrible Hypnosis just that extra bit worse.

Yanmega doesn't enjoy a miss when Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Stone Edge and Flamethrower/Fire Blast are all there on leads to haunt it. After Yanmega loses takes that SR damage, it needs a hit with Hypnosis to survive many attacks. Missing on a Scizor coming in = run away and come back with 1 HP or watch a bug crash into a windscreen. Hypnosis when combined with Protect also comes with the obvious problem of poor type coverage - Bug Buzz and Air Slash isn't quite ideal for a pokemon who can outspeed Superman.

 

[adman2]

60% accuracy sucks. Full stop. I never even used Hypnosis when it had 70%. With Gengar, I always had Destiny Bond isntead, for that commonly netted me a surprise kill, whilst a Hypnosis miss frequently lead to Gengar's horrible demise.

Bronzong got nerfed by the Hypnosis. It's bulky enough to use it, but a lack of recovery hurts. This is keeping in mind that the increased Trick and Heatran usage also hurt it. Though it is Bronzong's great support moves and Leviate ability that are the main things making it stand out from Metagross (the extra special bulk is small). Hypnosis' nerf meant more people went for Metagross instead. And guess what? Metagross is now the #1 lead.

Milotic had two key factors separating her from the rest of the bulky water crew - Recover and Hypnosis. The lowering of the accuracy made that horrible Hypnosis just that extra bit worse.

Yanmega doesn't enjoy a miss when Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Stone Edge and Flamethrower/Fire Blast are all there on leads to haunt it. After Yanmega loses takes that SR damage, it needs a hit with Hypnosis to survive many attacks. Missing on a Scizor coming in = run away and come back with 1 HP or watch a bug crash into a windscreen. Hypnosis when combined with Protect also comes with the obvious problem of poor type coverage - Bug Buzz and Air Slash isn't quite ideal for a pokemon who can outspeed Superman.

At least with Air Slash you have a small chance at flinching, and that only works with fast Pokemon!

:jump:

In all seriousness, though, you shouldn't use Hypnosis (or Will-o-Wisp) on frail Pokemon unless you're either predicting a switch, or using it as a suicide move. If you're desperate to use it though, I suppose Wide Lens could help move it to 66%, or over 70% in the case of Will-o-Wisp.

 

[Shigen]

Yanmega didn't leave because of a Hypnosis nerf, it left because Scizor owns it, and is so common now.

Breloom is better now that sleep is less common (although Celebi will always own it)

 

[adman2]

Assuming the Yanmega has minimum HP and 4 Defense EVs, and the Scizor has max Attack with Adamant Nature and a Choice Band, Bullet Punch is. . .
minimum 58.47%, average
63.26%, and maximum 69.01%.

Ouch! Shigen is right. No wonder few use Yanmega. Even on Wifi, Scizor is common, and a guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO if Stealth Rock is present, which it probably is).

 

[Jayce19]

Well raikoulover always rooted for putting some defense EVs on Yanmega so as to lower the odds. (against life orb scizor at least)

 

[Chou Toshio]

I can't imagine bringing my scizor in to try and bullet punch the enemy's lead pokemon though. That seems like its just asking to be magnezone-fried. :/

 

[Syberia]

Shed Shell is surprisingly common on them :(

 

[Jayce19]

Yeah but then i guess you're not getting your wanted xhko's without any attack boosting item.

 

[Syberia]

Shed Shell Scizors typically carry Swords Dance, so power isn't as much of an issue.

 

[pokeboss9]

I never used Hypnosis, even with 70% accuracy. There is not a big difference between 60% and 70% accuracy.

Now people use other sleeping moves instead Hypnosis, Sleep Pouder and Spore are the most common sleep moves. Hypnosis was always a worse alternative to them.

Gengar and Yanmega have so many possibilities so it is not so dramatic with the 10% accuracy drop. With Bronzong it is a way more different, now it is more offensive than in the past. Most people use EQ/Trick over Hypnosis now.

Im happy with the accuracy drop of Hypnosis, it makes Gengar easier to counter ;).

 

[Chou Toshio]

Shed Shell Scizors typically carry Swords Dance, so power isn't as much of an issue.

Ok, but I'm not about to toss out shed shell early game scizor into yanmega and try to set up as it air slashes me. :/

 

[RaikouLover]

Yanmega isn't too worried about scizor, seeing as how it can 2HKO Scizor on the switch in. The decline of Yanmega is because of the increase in Heatran / Magnezone / Rotom / Zapdos usage. If you use HP Ground for the first two, then you are missing Protect or Hypnosis, which means you can't even sleep a bunch of things.

Originally Posted by darknessmalice
Bronzong got nerfed by the Hypnosis. It's bulky enough to use it, but a lack of recovery hurts. This is keeping in mind that the increased Trick and Heatran usage also hurt it. Though it is Bronzong's great support moves and Leviate ability that are the main things making it stand out from Metagross (the extra special bulk is small). Hypnosis' nerf meant more people went for Metagross instead. And guess what? Metagross is now the #1 lead.

I can't agree with this at all. Bronzong did NOT get nerfed by hypnosis. Hypnosis is certainly slightly less viable on Bronzong, but it isn't "nerfed" at all. Bronzong is STILL the best transition pokemon in the game. Bronzong's main achilles heel now is Scizor, like everything else. Scizor can switch into EVERYTHING Bronzong has and take almost 50% of its health with a faster U-turn leaving the user with the option "A, stay in and have Bronzong get pwned... or B switch out and let them get a counter in." And Metagross is the #1 lead because it can lay rocks as well as Bronzong, but has a priority move to hit sashers with...

And Heatran and Trick really have nothing to do with Bronzong usage going down a bit, seeing as how Choice Band Bronzong with Earthquake gives two shits about either of those.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

I like the Hypnosis accuracy drop. Sometimes sleep was too hard to get around especially coming from something way fast (Yanmega, Gengar, etc...). I would say that this definitely brings Yanmega down but Gengar and Bronzong are still very playable. Bronzong has Trick to cripple sweepers now and nothing wants to get its speed halved or locked into a move (choice band). Personally, I use Bronzong with Full Incense (lol look it up) and Trick as my final move (Gyro,Explosion, Stealth Rock). It works fantastic and walls a lot of Pokemon. Overall, the loss of Hypnosis doesn't really change too much, IMO

 

[Fleursily34]

I used to have Yanmega on my teams all the time.

Then platinum hit and I stopped using Yanmega completly. (damn you scizor)

Just recently i've been using yanmega again. Its still great when hypnosis hits, but when hypnosis misses yanmegas usually dead XD

Anyway, I think sleeping is kind of cheap tactic to use anyway. (i still use it tho lol) thus the drop to 60% doesn't affect me that much.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I have to agree with RaikouLover, I don't really see Scizor having much of anything to do with Yanmega. Scizor is ridiculously rare as a lead, and that's just about the only place you'll see Yanmega. If Scizor switches into Yanmega, unless it is one of those very special-defensive ones, it's getting 2hko'd by air slash, AND risking getting magnezone'd as it reveals itself ridiculously early and uses bullet punch (arguably scizor's WORST early-game move). >.>

 

[Darkmalice]

Yanmega isn't too worried about scizor, seeing as how it can 2HKO Scizor on the switch in. The decline of Yanmega is because of the increase in Heatran / Magnezone / Rotom / Zapdos usage. If you use HP Ground for the first two, then you are missing Protect or Hypnosis, which means you can't even sleep a bunch of things.

Agreeing with everyone about saying Yanmega isn't too worried about Scizor. Chou sums it up pretty well.

I can't agree with this at all. Bronzong did NOT get nerfed by hypnosis. Hypnosis is certainly slightly less viable on Bronzong, but it isn't "nerfed" at all. Bronzong is STILL the best transition pokemon in the game. Bronzong's main achilles heel now is Scizor, like everything else. Scizor can switch into EVERYTHING Bronzong has and take almost 50% of its health with a faster U-turn leaving the user with the option "A, stay in and have Bronzong get pwned... or B switch out and let them get a counter in." And Metagross is the #1 lead because it can lay rocks as well as Bronzong, but has a priority move to hit sashers with...

And Heatran and Trick really have nothing to do with Bronzong usage going down a bit, seeing as how Choice Band Bronzong with Earthquake gives two shits about either of those.

The only improvement Bronzong gained in Platinum was one notable addition to its movepool - Trick. But it's more of a hinderance when used against Bronzong.

Should Bronzong have a CB or Macho Brace, tricking it a Choice Scarf will not only severe cripple it's Gyro Ball, it will enable the Tricker to pass a CB/Macho Brace onto other pokemon. Ideally, the same could be said about Bronzong, but after its item is releaved, Trick is pretty much telegraphed to your opponent. Such a Bronzong will do poor damage without its CB unless it uses Explosion. And even with a CB, Bronzong's damage output is very low compared to other CB users, most notably Metagross, who is a far superior CB user in every way except SDef and Leviate. But in turn, Metagross has better of every other stat, stronger STAB, a priority move and better movepool.

I really don't see why CB Bronzong wouldn't fear Heatran. It needs to focus in special bulk (the standard set) to survive neutral nature Fire Blast without an item boost. Even a little residual damage will make Fire Blast a OHKO. And once again, we can refer to the superiority of Metagross as a CB user, rendering the use of Trick on Bronzong questionable.

Despite gaining Trick, most Bronzong still run Leftovers as an item. They hate being Tricked a Choice Scarf and even Choice Specs (the former is more common and more crippling thanks to lowering Gyro Ball's base Power). After a Gengar uses Trick on a Bronzong, it won't get a 2HKO with Gyro Ball. Transition Bronzong also hate being Tricked, making the job of a transition pokemon harder in DPPt then in DP.


These factors combined with most other pokemon gaining improvements (including your Scizor's U-turn example), it's impossible to deny that Bronzong has been nerfed. Bronzong's statistics will show a drop in usage from DP battling, once constantly belonging to the top 10, to DPPt battling, where it only makes the top 20. Only slightly nerfed though. It's still solid OU material.

 

[TDS]

i dont think hypnosis will die out. I mean missing an extra 1 in 10 wont do THAT much

 

[1059860]

Yeah but you gotta think it in this way. Before, every time you use it you have a 3/10 miss, now you have a 2/5 miss... That's pretty big if you think of it in per-use.

 

[Staraptor Call]

One other effect of Hypnosis having lower accuracy is the decrease in use of Sleep Talk. Earlier in DP, when Hypnosis leads were very common, many teams would have RestTalkers to take the Hypnosis, activate Sleep Clause, and still be able to function. However, now that Sleep leads are less common, fewer people are using RestTalkers. This is one factor accounting for the decrease in usage of Cresselia and Milotic, two often used as RestTalkers/status-takers. One might explain the decrease in usage of these RestTalkers by the introduction of Rotom-A and its RestTalk set, but the use of RestTalking over all has decreased since early DP.

 

[Xaqwais]

I mean, the sensible thing is to look at how the metagame changed on Shoddy. Hypnosis isn't anywhere near as common, but it still lurks around.

Poor Gengar though. He would nail teams that didn't have priority or a faster pokemon. Sleep their counter, and hit it with nuetral attacks until it died. :/

 

[Ancax]

They should have left the Hypnosis at 70%. Sleep Powder/Lovely Kiss users are sparse, and Sleep is now more valuable then it was before.

 

[Epic Cherubi]

Back before Platinum life sucked enough for Gengar with all the Weavile running around. Now in platinum Scizor, who is basically Weavile with armor began ethnically cleansing the frail Psychics. Hurting Hypnosis accuracy wasn't the deathblow to the several pokemon who learned it, it was Scizor.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

The drop in accuracy really isn't much compared to the huge shift in playing styles that have come about recently and started just before Platinum even came out. Hypnosis' accuracy didn't "nerf" it, the fact that the game is more offensively oriented than ever just made it less appealing to use. Like someone else said in this thread, Gengar and Yanmega usually have better things to be doing especially with Scizor around, and other users of Hypnosis users have been forced into using other attacks because they are better suited to today's metagame. Bronzong now usually packs EQ/Explosion/Light Screen/Reflect/Rain Dance etc in that last moveslot and they are usually better for their team.

Hypnosis didn't get nerfed, sleep as a status effect did.

 

[diinbong]

I never used Hypnosis, even with 70% accuracy. There is not a big difference between 60% and 70% accuracy.

Yeah, except maybe the loss of a Pokemon.

Now people use other sleeping moves instead Hypnosis, Sleep Pouder and Spore are the most common sleep moves. Hypnosis was always a worse alternative to them.

Hypnosis 2.24%
Spore 1.87%
Sleep Powder 0.86%

This statement is obviously blatantly false. +The reason for Hypnosis' high usage was also due to the number of competitively viable Pokemon able to use it, unlike say, Spore or Sleep Powder. If Sleep Powder requires me to use Roserade, it damn isn't the best alternative.

 

[Kryuell]

the only two things that really used hypnosis were yanmega and gengar and bronzong.

1. thats three things mate =P

2. Crobat says hi