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Pokemon Go Unofficial Viability Rankings (Beta)
- Thread starter Conni
- Start date
Overall, gen2 doesn't give much relevant mon. That bear is frail despite strong, like Gengar. Even the local pseudo legendary is easily less relevant thanks to Fighting buffs and simply existence of little Vapie....
Defending is now impossible with low CP threshold, unless it's named Chansey. Training gyms though, a lot of new options such as Umbreon and Lanturn due to their great survivability.
Defending is now impossible with low CP threshold, unless it's named Chansey. Training gyms though, a lot of new options such as Umbreon and Lanturn due to their great survivability.
metal claw is a shit, counter or bust (and hyper beam or bust)
fat pink blob, fat pink blob, fat pink blob
this fatboi redefined gym meta, forcing me to use machamp/ursaring in almost every lineup. Also the things like steelix, forretress, umbreon defend quite nicely despite low-ish cp caps
but yeah you're mostly right, gen 2 has introduced more memes than actual mons
I almost forgot that. Well, for attacking rival gyms, that fat pink blob can still be doable with things around it CP, thankfully. I got Vapies to clean them up while waiting for Fighters. But it nearly broke the gym until the quick move reversion.
And as for defending... as long as backstabbing is a thing, sadly low CP 'mon is out from the question to me. They may perform better, but they'll get the short stick once factors other than battling performance alone is taken into consideration. I know, I hate this as well, with Gyarados on top while Jolteon can eat 3 of them and actual defenders like Slowbro shafted by backstabbers or rival team that stopped midfight. The only time battling performance alone can define their tier is when CP is no longer the definer of gym totem pole or species clause is in effect or anything that may change the gym system or in rural areas with very minimal stagnation.
Wait where are chansey blissey and ttar?
I think it is about time we update this thing. This is outdated from Gen1.
First of all, definitely, Blissey is like the Anything Goes for Pokemon GO (as in, broken), so S or higher if there can even be it. Alright, maybe the top of Uber. Still....
This thing is so horrible to deal with that it deserves its own tier, followed with Snorlax? who is great defender with actual capability to defend itself in separate lower tier.
You can even have people stack like, more than 6 at once, which is like almost impossible to break past to fight the rest, nevermind more.
I had to break cheater-laden gym in the outskirt with 5 at once plus extra Snorlaxes? and managed to clear it out, but it drained my supply so fast even with top attackers and counters on hand.
First of all, definitely, Blissey is like the Anything Goes for Pokemon GO (as in, broken), so S or higher if there can even be it. Alright, maybe the top of Uber. Still....
This thing is so horrible to deal with that it deserves its own tier, followed with Snorlax? who is great defender with actual capability to defend itself in separate lower tier.
You can even have people stack like, more than 6 at once, which is like almost impossible to break past to fight the rest, nevermind more.
I had to break cheater-laden gym in the outskirt with 5 at once plus extra Snorlaxes? and managed to clear it out, but it drained my supply so fast even with top attackers and counters on hand.
Defender viability lists should just be sorted by CP, let's be real here. No matter how good a defender truly is, it won't matter in the long run when it gets shaved by the Top 7. We all understand Blissey's dominance in both offense and defense but that doesn't change the fact that the best defender won't matter when you can slot a shit Dragonite on top.
Defender Viability List:
S Rank:
Tyranitar
Dragonite
A Rank:
Snorlax
Rhydon
Gyarados
Blissey
Vaporeon
Defender Viability List:
S Rank:
A Rank:
Both member of the council have retired from the room/game, so updates actually made may take a while.
Also thoughts on prestigers would be very nice, so throwing other things in here:
Umbreon, Miltank, Lanturn, Tangela are probably my favorite, and can take many hits while dodging, and putting out fairly solid damage
Also thoughts on prestigers would be very nice, so throwing other things in here:
Umbreon, Miltank, Lanturn, Tangela are probably my favorite, and can take many hits while dodging, and putting out fairly solid damage
Conni
katharsis
If active Pokemon GO players / PS Pogo room staff want to take over the viability ranking and the council then please feel free because I don't think I have the interest to continue this, just contact the Orange Island mods to see if they allow a new thread owner, although I'd prefer it to be a PS! PoGo staff member (as they have a lot of experience).
That will depend on the metagame as not everywhere is hell like SF (I saw few posts about it and holy sweet Arceus....) Solely basing it on CP is not right either as while they can do their weight, they still have flaws. Godzilla is wrecked by Fightings that had dealt with Blissey and also by Vaporeon who can deal a lot of things as generalist.
Here, few gyms got stagnant (mostly thanks to these demonwalls, while others are mostly outskirt areas), but there are a lot which change hands very regularly, and some that manages to reach 3 or 4-tier gym before broken down.
Heck, Blissey is a huge deterrent for many people to even try attacking it (or training prestige for that matter), even worse than Snorlax in Gen1 era (I at least could take them out with my Vapie division, one for one)
I can't help but agree with Gamepress that Blissey needs its own tier, followed below by Snorlax and maybe dragons and other CP high things. I don't agree much with GP throwing Vapies below them as many people agree Vapies are also actually capable defender with great annoyance; I have maxed several outstanding ones and faced few myself and they're definitely harder than dons and tars (at least dragons are now legit defender with annoyingly powerful DTail, but I laugh at fake-zillas.)
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I'm not talking about SF. The endgame realistically consists of the top 7, slowly getting shaved off until we get to the 10 Tyranitar gyms. I hold gyms here with a 2700 Golem and 2500 Exeggutor sitting in them for months, but it doesn't change the fact that those get removed by your own team and then the ball gets rolling.
Perhaps it's a cynical view but with shaving being the problem it is (both for sustaining gyms and when it's done to you), I can't see defenders being anything more than CP sorted atm.
I know you're not talking about it, but you mean it will be the endgame, everywhere to be hellishly similar to SF. That viability would only depend on defending oneself from own teammate (sad, I know indeed), but remember that there are also people who play and would solo a tall gym or playing in groups, so depending on the local metagame activity, even those all-pseudolegend gyms won't stand for long. When I have time, I for one takes those gyms as fun challenges. With the cycle of building-stagnate-destroyed going on (and some places even skipping the stagnate part), I believe other mons are still certainly relevant. Do remember rival teams do exist.
Shaving are certainly huge problem and my little cuties have fallen victim to it several times, but as it implies that other teams or team rivalry don't exist, making viability ranking solely based on CP is not right either. It can be large contribution to viability (no matter how much I hate it as my past post before, I admit), but it cannot everything.
Also, attacking Blissey is a special case. I'd put it on S as she can ridiculously break past everything too (except Blissey or strong Snorlax who can timeout), but she's also very, very time and potion-inefficient (although Max Potion / Revive is enough and arguably would make her Potion-efficient with ability to break many things on the cost of just one Max Potion). So it would be S, but dumbed down to A/A- if time and/or healing supply is valued more, depending on preferences.
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I go as far as saying that the big 7 are the only Pokemon that really matter for defending. Most of the gyms I see are level 10 gyms with many higher CP Pokemon which are victims of shaving. Anything with CP lower than Vaporeon rarely manages to find a spot in these gyms, and even Vaporeon is an uncommon site in these gyms since, whilst common in recently formed gyms, gradually gets pushed aside by shaving. Unfortunately for Vaporeon, Rhydon are very common and many shavers have multiple Pokemon. Often I find many gyms just have Rhydon, Snorlax, Dnite and Ttar since Rhydon seems to be the benchmark for shaving in areas. 3000 CP seems to be the mark to beat so Pokemon like Vaporeon and Blissey can still get in though if high enough (especially Blissey since its strength at least partially discourages shaving).
The gyms I see that don't only have the big 7 usually get taken down quickly aka not surviving in the metagame.
In all honesty, if I were to make a tier list, I would copy GamePress except I would move Lapras down.
Saying that, Blissey is unquestionably the most effective defender due to raw strength. it does sometimes fall to shaving, but it's raw efficiency makes it harder for potential shavers to take down, and it's so good it deserves it's own ranking. S+ rank
Snorlax is the next best defender due to effectiveness, and its CP beats Mr Shaver Rhydon. S rank
Rhydon, Gyarados, Dnite and Ttar are next since they can place above Blissey and are easier to keep in gyms in the shaving metagame. These are the A rank Pokemon. Dragonite stands a bit above these a A+ as it has the combination of having rare strong counters (Lapras is the only strong counter but that's very difficult to get), great moves both quick and charge, and very high CP (only bested by Ttar who has more counters that are easier to get and weaker moves)
Vaporeon is next. He's a good defender and has a CP very close to that of Blissey. But I do find a lot of high level gyms with 3000+ CP Pokemon, and Vaporeon finds it hard to get a place in the shaving metagame since his CP cannot compete with the above Pokemon. Especially when he places lower than Blissey. He is B rank.
As I said before the big 7 is what matters most, so I feel anything else should be no higher than C rank. C rank would compromise of other good defenders who are limited by their CP in the shaving metagame. Either they're CP is
C+: Lapras - I rank Lapras here alone because it's very effective at defending, more so than the other C rank Pokemon
C: Steelix, Slowbro, Slowking, Espeon, Donphan, Exeggutor
C-: Ampharos and Machamp. Maybe Heracross too.
I don't really care about anything lower than those. They're either outclassed e.g. Alakazam to Espeon, Golem to Rhydon, Ursaring to Snorlax or have some key flaws which makes them negligible in the metagame e.g. Scizor being beaten too easily by Fire-types. Even the C rank Pokemon could be collectively grouped since it's only the big 7 that shape the defending metagame.
The gyms I see that don't only have the big 7 usually get taken down quickly aka not surviving in the metagame.
In all honesty, if I were to make a tier list, I would copy GamePress except I would move Lapras down.
Saying that, Blissey is unquestionably the most effective defender due to raw strength. it does sometimes fall to shaving, but it's raw efficiency makes it harder for potential shavers to take down, and it's so good it deserves it's own ranking. S+ rank
Snorlax is the next best defender due to effectiveness, and its CP beats Mr Shaver Rhydon. S rank
Rhydon, Gyarados, Dnite and Ttar are next since they can place above Blissey and are easier to keep in gyms in the shaving metagame. These are the A rank Pokemon. Dragonite stands a bit above these a A+ as it has the combination of having rare strong counters (Lapras is the only strong counter but that's very difficult to get), great moves both quick and charge, and very high CP (only bested by Ttar who has more counters that are easier to get and weaker moves)
Vaporeon is next. He's a good defender and has a CP very close to that of Blissey. But I do find a lot of high level gyms with 3000+ CP Pokemon, and Vaporeon finds it hard to get a place in the shaving metagame since his CP cannot compete with the above Pokemon. Especially when he places lower than Blissey. He is B rank.
As I said before the big 7 is what matters most, so I feel anything else should be no higher than C rank. C rank would compromise of other good defenders who are limited by their CP in the shaving metagame. Either they're CP is
- Notably lower than Vaporeon's but very effective at defending: Lapras, Steelix, Slowbro and Slowking.
- Close to Vaporeon's CP but said Pokemon is not as a good as defending as Vaporeon but is still otherwise an effective defender. Exeggutor, Espeon, Donphan. You could potentially use them in the shaving metagame, but given how common both Rhydon and Vaporeon are, everyone will have one of those to deposit instead
- Something inbetween these groups: Ampharos and Machamp
C+: Lapras - I rank Lapras here alone because it's very effective at defending, more so than the other C rank Pokemon
C: Steelix, Slowbro, Slowking, Espeon, Donphan, Exeggutor
C-: Ampharos and Machamp. Maybe Heracross too.
I don't really care about anything lower than those. They're either outclassed e.g. Alakazam to Espeon, Golem to Rhydon, Ursaring to Snorlax or have some key flaws which makes them negligible in the metagame e.g. Scizor being beaten too easily by Fire-types. Even the C rank Pokemon could be collectively grouped since it's only the big 7 that shape the defending metagame.
S+: Blissey
S: Snorlax
A+: Dragonite
A: Tyranitar, Rhydon, Gyarados
B: Vaporeon
C+: Lapras
C: Steelix, Slowbro, Slowking, Espeon, Donphan, Exeggutor
C-: Ampharos, Machamp ?Heracross
S: Snorlax
A+: Dragonite
A: Tyranitar, Rhydon, Gyarados
B: Vaporeon
C+: Lapras
C: Steelix, Slowbro, Slowking, Espeon, Donphan, Exeggutor
C-: Ampharos, Machamp ?Heracross
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I would argue against placing Vaporeon lower than A, although maybe that's because I'm dedicated enough to her as my faved. I'd say at least A-, penalised by her CP that is just lower than Blissey (I even checked every Pokemon's CP and until Alola, her CP is still right below Blissey). It is that those who can sit above Blissey instantly get extra protection.
That said, Vaporeon can sit higher than many Blisseys when leveled high enough, and I manage to enjoy this fact by putting some of them above these walls. And then yes, she can pull her weight very well, with HPump being instantly shot (though somewhat predictable with every 1-bar) and ATail being water equivalent of dreaded BSlam or DClaw spam and massive health to make mild frustration.
Although maybe B rank could work due to way too small variation in defense meta. We can't really skip one rank or have B as lowest rank here, still, and sadly grasses like Venusaur? destroys her easily although ATail spam can still problem them....
At least here, we got dedicated players who takes these high gyms as challenges. I find myself soloing high gyms sometimes. CP creep definitely factors in, but it has to be balanced with actual performance too. How much is that, I'm not sure, as each place has different levels of activity, I suppose.
Oh, and dragon doesn't always have to be murdered by Lappies. Cloyster? does arguably better than it since the nerf, people say, and DTail sets (and DBreath from fools like myself once) can now be countered by fairies. Clefable and Wigglytuff? does pretty great against Dragon quick move sets. And Rock weakness can also be exploited by attacking Tyranitar?. A+ is still right for the hard-hitting moves indeed, though.
Oh, and on the C rank, Slowbro should be nearer to Lapras as he's also decent defender while Lapras share same weakness to Blissey and knowledgeable player would have good anti-Blissey on hand. Lapras had the luxury of rare counters because of Fighting moves being total scrap, but now no longer. Slowbro is... well, annoyingly tough.
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My main thought process was that only the big 7 was worth of being at least B rank, for the small variation in defence meta as you said. Vaporeon's lower CP I feel was enough to make it lower than the rest of the big 7. The way I saw it, B rank or higher is the standard meta and everything else below is, though not bad, struggles to find use in this metagame dominated when the highest levelled trainers dominate the metagame and shaving and high CP are big components. I agree with you that Vaporeon pulls its weight very well, but I felt that wasn't enough to compensate for its CP in this metagame.
I also do feel that defending Pokemon's ability to defend is largely overexaggeraed. Every Pokemon except Blissey has counters, and the attackers are at a massive advantage over defenders since they get to choose their Pokemon, switch out easily and dodge. In reality I find defending is primarily about discouraging opposing players from attacking you, and allied teammates from shaving you as a secondary goal, as opposed to actual defending ability. I assume that if the opponent attacks, they will win. And even if an attacker cannot solo a whole gym, they need to only remove 1 Pokemon to lower the prestige - attacking and defeating one or more Pokemon, quitting before fighting the rest of the gym, then repeating will eventually take down the gym. The most discouraging thing for attacking or shaving players is a Blissey at the front slot of the gym. Vaporeon, unfortunately being lower CP than Blissey, is harder to place behind Blissey. It definitely should be ranked higher than anything other than the big 7 due to both its ability to defend and because its CP is very close to that of Blissey.
I should have been more clear - I meant hard counters when talking about Lapras and Dnite. But yeah I agree with you. I'd count Cloyster as a hard counter too, Dewgong too. Clefable/Wigglytuff are counters for non-Steel Wing variants, and Ttar too, but not hard counters.
Not sure what you mean by Lapras sharing same weakness to Blissey - every defender is weak to Blissey.
My main reason for ranking Lapras higher than Slowbro/Slowking was that it takes longer to take down due to Lapras' Stamina. This would make Lapras fair better than Slowbro against, say Jolteon, who typing-wise has the same advantage against both Lapras and Slowbro. Counters wise I think you over-exaggerate Slowbro's lack of counters. Lapras does have Machamp and Ttar, but Slowbro has Exeggutor and Ttar (despite Water-type attacks for both, Slowbro suffers against Bite/Crunch Ttar and Lapras against Stone Edge variants). Exeggutor is the important Pokemon here. A good Exeggutor is more common than a good Machamp since only the new moveset Machamps are good whilst Exeggutors both old and new movesets are good. Plus Exeggutor needs less candy to evolve than Machamp and has a 2/3 chance of a Grass-type special move, whilst Machamp only has 50% to get Counter. In fact I expect practically every high-levelled player to have a good Exeggutor, but not a good Machamp. For comparison, I have many high IVed Exeggutor with Grass-type special attacks, but zero Counter Machamp - (the only 3 Machops I evolved straight to Machamp, since the new movesets came out, all got Bullet Punch). The only other good Fighting-type is Heracross, who is region-limited. Poliwrath works too but needs both Rock Smash and Dynamic Punch (1/6 chance + 125 candy). Other fighting-types are too weak for the job. I still think getting a good Exeggutor is better than a good Fighting-type.
Slowbro/Slowking are probably the next best defenders after Lapras though.
I meant both her and Blissey is weak to Fighting, but then it's almost irrelevant by now, I suppose.
Egh, I have almost forgotten the walking trees. I forgot all-Grass variant that can easily beat them. It is not that I overexaggerate his lack of counters, but I probably had overestimated Lapras' new counters. I had not the chance to try my fighter against her as of now, nor I could try Slows with it being very rare encounter. It is weird that I have more regular Machop spawns than the eggs. Maybe I'm too lucky with rolling the last Machamp's move.
With this going on I doubt one should even expand the viability further below. Gamepress at least had a little further like Umbreon....
But it's not wrong to say that the gym system is broken, not working as intended.
I wonder how to design the prestige trainer ranks....
For prestigers, we first need a metric. Do we value Potion usage or not? (If we don't, Blissey is S again) Do we just value how well a Pokemon does vs a defender? Regardless, again, just focus on prestiging vs:
1) The Big 7: Since we can assume people want to slot in high level gyms (the end goal of this broken gym system), these are the Pokemon we should focus on primarily. Cloyster and Jynx can be ranked highly due to potion efficiency and the ubiquity of Dragonite, Tangela can be ranked highly due to stomping Rhydon and Vaporeon and doing decent vs Tyranitar, etc.
2) Generalists: Umbreon, Parasect, Wigglytuff are a big example of Pokemon who can prestige against a wide arrange of threats (including the top 7) and come out on top consistently, so they should ranked accordingly.
1) The Big 7: Since we can assume people want to slot in high level gyms (the end goal of this broken gym system), these are the Pokemon we should focus on primarily. Cloyster and Jynx can be ranked highly due to potion efficiency and the ubiquity of Dragonite, Tangela can be ranked highly due to stomping Rhydon and Vaporeon and doing decent vs Tyranitar, etc.
2) Generalists: Umbreon, Parasect, Wigglytuff are a big example of Pokemon who can prestige against a wide arrange of threats (including the top 7) and come out on top consistently, so they should ranked accordingly.
I'm going to say potion usage doesn't matter, as most prestigers can get healed up with a super potion/1 or 2 potions.
While not as relevant in the gym meta anymore, scizor does a fair job of taking confusions/bullet seeds from exeggutor while reliably killing it with shit rolls like Fury Cutter. (Adding exeggutor to this because apart from big 7, it's pretty damn strong with confusion)
Both the Evolution Item grass types, (Sunflora, Bellossom) do incredible jobs against Vaporeon, Tyranitar, and Rhydon. Umbreon is valuable in general because it resists a Gyara's bite, although things like Raichu and Electabuzz might be a better choice.
In the case of rankings, we have to look at what kills the big 7, with a second place nomination for typings that resist different types of attacks.
While not as relevant in the gym meta anymore, scizor does a fair job of taking confusions/bullet seeds from exeggutor while reliably killing it with shit rolls like Fury Cutter. (Adding exeggutor to this because apart from big 7, it's pretty damn strong with confusion)
Both the Evolution Item grass types, (Sunflora, Bellossom) do incredible jobs against Vaporeon, Tyranitar, and Rhydon. Umbreon is valuable in general because it resists a Gyara's bite, although things like Raichu and Electabuzz might be a better choice.
In the case of rankings, we have to look at what kills the big 7, with a second place nomination for typings that resist different types of attacks.