1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    In the entry of Yellow Pikachu should be stood out the fact that it has available from start a decent STAB special move, unlike Bulbasaur, Charmander and Squirtle who have to wait until lv 13, 9 and 15 respectively. Squirtle has Bubble at level 8, but it has half of the power than Thundershock or Water Gun.

    Special moves are specially(lol) useful at the start of the game because Growl is very common and against few Harden Metapods, also most of the mons that are used by trainers/wild are specially-weak.

    Also Electric moves from the start are very useful, except against Brock, previous trainer in the gim that can be skipped and 1-2 Hikers in Mt. Moon.

    Edit: I HATE start a new page.
  2. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I found some spare time to redo Shellder. I decided to put it in High for now, but I'll drop it to Mid if people think that's a bit too much of a boost.

    Shellder (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Shellder - High Tier
    -Availability: There are numerous methods for obtaining Shellder. It is possible to fish it up with the Super Rod. This isn’t the best choice in RB because it is severely underleveled. In Yellow, it is more viable because it can be obtained as high as level 40. In RB, you are better off waiting until you reach the Seaform Islands, where it comes at a more reasonable level (28-33, depending on version). Although this may seem a bit low compared to what your team will be at, it can (like most later game water types) head to Cinnabar and gain levels easily using the wild Pokémon and trainers in the Mansion and Gym. Despite coming somewhat late, Shellder comes at the time where Water/Ice coverage is most valuable. It should also be noted that Shellder can be evolved right away, which means you don’t have to worry about using the weaker Shellder at all.
    -Stats: The most striking stat is the huge 180 Defence. Cloyster has 95 Attack and 85 Special, allowing it to hit reasonably hard from both ends of the spectrum. 70 Speed is adequate for in-game runs. Cloyster’s only low stat is its 50 HP, but this isn’t a huge concern for a simple run through of the main game, and in terms of physical bulk its insane Defence makes up for it.
    -Movepool: Cloyster starts off with Surf and an Ice move, assuming you catch it at level 30 (which is required for Aurora Beam). In fact, having Aurora Beam this early allows you to avoid using one of the Ice TMs on it if required. However, Cloyster greatly appreciates Ice Beam/Blizzard. Beyond its STABs, all it gets are Normal attacks. Tri Attack is probably the pick of the lot because it has decent power with no drawbacks, and the fact that it is such an exclusive move means that it is very likely to be available to Cloyster.
    -Power: Cloyster is strong enough for what it needs to do, and that is take advantage of the excellent coverage that its STABs provide late game. Powerful moves and solid stats serve it well. Note that Cloyster, like many Water types, will struggle a bit against opposing Water types. Tri Attack helps but does not solve the problem completely, although Cloyster can probably defend itself better than many other Water types thanks to higher Attack, Water and Ice resistance, and great Defence to take Normal attacks.
    -Type: Water/Ice is a fantastic offensive combination considering when Cloyster joins the team. It covers many of the important trainers towards the end, which is invaluable. Cloyster does have a few nasty weaknesses though. Its massive Defence allows it to take Fighting and Rock attacks but Electric and Grass attacks will sting. Thankfully, as long as you have good knowledge of the movesets of your opponents, particularly Gym Leaders and Elite 4 members, these attacks are easy to predict and avoid.
    -Match-ups: Blaine – You have STAB Surf on your side. You laugh at their physical attacks. Just don’t underestimate the power of STAB Fire Blast. 85 Special is good but 50 HP may leave you vulnerable, especially in Yellow where Ninetales is the lead.
    Giovanni – Surf (or an Ice attack) basically adds up to a clean sweep. Persian isn’t doing much to you with your 180 Defence. Be careful about Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking though.
    Lorelei – Mirror Match. There are better choices but you can actually do better here than some of the other water types. 180 Defence combined with your Water and Ice resistances makes it a bit difficult for her to harm you significantly, and you have Tri Attack backed up by 95 Attack. Only Slowbro (in Yellow) has a Special attack that can hit you neutrally. Naturally, Cloyster should probably sit this out for a more efficient choice, but knowing that Cloyster can tank most of her Pokémon’s attacks is reassuring if you need a back up.
    Bruno – Surf covers Onix, and it hits his Fighting types hard too. The Fighting weakness isn’t that bad considering your 180 Defence. You should be able to pull off a sweep.
    Agatha – No type advantage here. You can hit Golbat with an Ice attack, and Arbok is weak. The ghosts are trickier because there are bulky on the special side and can annoy you with status. Also, watch out for the Gengar with Mega Drain in Yellow.
    Lance – Your STABs cover everything except Gyarados. Even Gyarados can be beaten one on one with Tri Attack and 180 Defence, although it is easier to send your Thunderbolt Pokémon in to deal with it. In Yellow, Dragonite and Dragonair have Electric moves. However, given how Dragonair is fairly weak and Dragonite is probably going to be OHKOed by your Ice attack, it isn’t a huge deal.
    Blue – You can beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Venusaur, Sandslash, Ninetales and Flareon for sure. If you want, you can take on his Water Pokémon too. Just steer clear of his Electric types and you’ll be fine. Cloyster is unbelievably useful for this battle.
    -Additional Comments: This is a good water Pokémon for late game use. It has competition from other water types like Omaster, Dewgong and Starmie though. Cloyster is a good Pokémon in its own right regardless of comparisons, and it distinguishes itself with its massive Defence and above average Attack. The biggest advantage it has over its competition is its efficiency. By coming at a high level and having access to a great moveset without any significant sacrifices, Cloyster can fit in on almost any team.


    I may redo Tauros and Bellsprout at a later date.
  3. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,041
    I think we just disagree on the way we define things and what section we put things in, not necessarily on what's important for tiering. The way I see it is that Magikarp is available for longer than Bellsprout (for example), and that's most of what there is to say about their availability. And then we have the other sections to talk about how bad Magikarp's stats are.
  4. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    technically I didn't quote you, but paraphrased the idea
  5. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I decided to do Bellsprout and Tauros now rather than later.

    Bellsprout (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Bellsprout (Blue and Yellow only) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Bellsprout can be caught as early as Route 24. This is convenient because this is around the same time as the Misty battle, where it acts as one of the better counters to her. It ranges from level 12-14, which isn’t a complete disaster. It evolves at level 21 and then again using a Leaf Stone.
    -Stats: The Bellsprout family has a focus on offense. Bellsprout actually starts with decent 75 Attack and 70 Special. Once fully evolved, Victreebel sports impressive 105 Attack and 100 Special, backed up by a usable 70 Speed. It’s only remotely poor stat is Defence, but it doesn’t really harm Victreebel much in-game.
    -Movepool: This is probably where Victreebel suffers a bit. It basically has the same movepool as Venusaur, but it takes longer to get its best moves. Razor Leaf is the best Grass type attack in the game, but it comes quite late. In fact, it may be better to prevent Bellsprout from evolving for a while so it can get it at level 33. In the meantime, you’ll be using Vine Whip and Wrap as your main offense. Bellsprout also gets the status powders early, which is helpful for a while until it gets Razor Leaf to kill things. It gets Growth early as well, and it can potential run a boosting set with Sleep Powder and Mega Drain. Although this isn't as immediately as powerful as Razor Leaf spam, it does do better against certain trainers and it allows you to fully evolve sooner. Beyond its grass STAB, it gets Body Slam but only as Victreebel, so you won’t be able to get it until Celadon City. You may prefer to use Double-Edge instead (or in the meantime). It also gets Acid, but it is very weak. Acid does seem useful in theory to cover Bug and Grass types, but a large number of them have secondary typings that remove the weakness, making this irrelevant.
    -Power: Bellsprout is ok for a while but it will struggle against anything that resists Grass, especially before it gets a strong Normal attack. It doesn’t really take off until Razor Leaf and Body Slam/Double-Edge come along. Even then, it will still suffer a bit from having its strongest STAB resisted by many opponents, although there are many opponents that don’t and Razor Leaf is brutal against them.
    -Type: As an offensive type, Grass is very hit-and-miss. Grass has coverage against some important types (Water, Ground and Rock), but it is resisted by common Poison, Bug, Grass, Fire, and Flying types (as well as the less common Dragon). Weaknesses to Fire, Flying, Psychic, Bug and Ice are irritating as well. Victreebel may need to be a bit more selective about what to take on if it wants to avoid damage, but Grass definitely has its uses.
    -Match-ups: Misty – This match-up is one of the best reasons to use Bellsprout. Resisting BubbleBeam makes this quite a bit easier and with STAB Vine Whip on your side you can’t afford to lose. Just make sure you are at a reasonable level, although this shouldn’t be a problem.
    Lt. Surge – Another good match-up in RB. Electric resistance allows you to take Thunderbolt from Raichu, and if you can stop that then you can stop the others. Don’t get reckless in Yellow though. Raichu’s Mega Kick and Mega Punch are brutal. You may need to try a status move to win.
    Erika – This isn’t a great match-up for either side. However, Victreebel can work out well here. Grass resistance and Body Slam from 105 Attack is potent, and being immune to PoisonPowder can provide free turns in RB assuming she is stupid. You are still vulnerable to Sleep Powder and Stun Spore, but you have those on your side as well. If you are still Bellsprout/Weepinbell, you can try the same thing with Double-Edge over Body Slam, but it isn’t as effective.
    Koga – You aren’t really useful here. His Pokémon resist Grass and high Defence allows them to take Body Slam (especially Weezing and Muk). Of course, they have terrible movesets so they can’t really do too much back, so you can “win” if you must use Victreebel. In Yellow, Body Slam is a more potent weapon, but they can hit you with Psychic moves. Venomoth is pretty much the only threatening Pokémon on his team though.
    Sabrina – Stay away. Super-Effective Psychic moves make this a battle that Victreebel should sit out. Still, Body Slam from 105 Attack is powerful against her frail Pokémon, so you may be able to take some of them out.
    Blaine – Another gym that you aren’t that useful in. In RB, you can beat Growlithe and Ponyta, but Fire Blast from Arcanine is devastating to Victreebel. In Yellow, Growlithe and Ponyta have been replaced by a Ninetales with Flamethrower, making the match-up even worse.
    Giovanni – This is the first gym in a while where you have a good match-up. Razor Leaf dispatches of Rhyhorn, Rhydon, Dugtrio and Persian. Nidoqueen and Nidoking aren’t weak to Grass but can be beaten.
    Lorelei – Razor Leaf is super effective against most of her team (and Jynx hates Body Slam from 105 Attack) but then you are weak to Psychic and Ice attacks. A Growth boosting set may actually do better here than Razor Leaf spam, and although it isn't the absolute best choice it can get the job done. Use it if you want, but have a back-up ready.
    Bruno – You destroy Onix, and Razor Leaf hits his Fighting types hard as well. You also resist Fighting, so this is a good match-up overall.
    Agatha – You are kind of useless here. You really can’t do anything to her Ghosts, and although you can beat Golbat and Arbok with Body Slam an attempt to do so may result in confusion or paralysis.
    Lance – His Dragon types resist Grass. Relying on Body Slam probably won’t be enough for a clean sweep, but Razor Leaf should be enough for Aerodactyl. In Yellow, you have to watch out for Ice, Fire and Flying moves.
    Blue – Using its resistances, and Razor Leaf and Body Slam, you can beat Rhydon, Exeggutor, Blastoise, Venusaur, Sandslash, Cloyster, Vaporeon, Magneton and Jolteon. Just watch out for Ice moves from the Water types, and Pin Missile from Jolteon.
    -Additional Comments: This is pretty much the best Grass type if you don’t go with Bulbasaur, and in Yellow it gives Bulbasaur some serious competition because of the nerf Bulbasaur got in its availability. It is a useful Pokémon thanks to its good stats and the sheer power of Razor Leaf, but tends to be hit-and-miss thanks to its somewhat limited movepool, and unlike RB Bulbasaur it doesn’t provide a no-drawbacks win condition against Brock and Misty.


    Tauros (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Tauros - Low Tier
    -Availability: Tauros can only be found in the Safari Zone. In RB, it is rare (4% encounter rate in area 3), has a low catch rate and tends to flee. It comes at level 26 at a minimum, which is somewhat underleveled (but not completely unsalvageable). This makes it a very inaccessible Pokémon indeed. In Yellow it is slightly more common (10% encounter rate in area 1 and 3), but comes at level 21 and retains its low catch rate.
    -Stats: Tauros’s stats are impressive overall. 100 Attack and 110 Speed are perfect for sweeping through regular trainers quickly. 70 HP, 95 Defence and 70 Special give it decent bulk. 70 Special also allows it to use special attacks well.
    -Movepool: Tauros’s level up movepool is very small. Stomp is a good move to start off with, but since Strength comes at around the same time that Tauros does you might as well use that. Although you can get away with just Strength if you want to, Tauros really appreciates TM support to be as effective as possible. It gets several Normal TMs, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Earthquake as strong options, but it is a big ask to actually reserve all of these for such an difficult-to-obtain Pokémon. Chances are that you might be able to take some of these, but simply have Nidoking/Nidoqueen and a Water type on your team (which is a fairly “standard” team in in-game first gen) can take most of these away and that leaves Tauros with nothing. As a result, you may have to build your team with these restrictions in mind if you plan to use it with its best possible moveset.
    -Power: Tauros is an excellent sweeper, especially if you gave it TM support to improve its coverage. Strength should be sufficient to at least 2HKO most things though, and obviously standard trainers are going to fold to it. However, it isn’t the monster it could be if you rely on Strength alone, which you kind of want it to be if you are going that much out of your way to get it.
    -Type: Normal has wide neutral coverage but no super effective coverage to speak of. This does allow Tauros to run mono-Normal coverage if it wants to, although some super effective coverage would have been nice to get more OHKOs. It’s a similar situation defensively, with only one weakness but only one immunity.
    -Match-ups: Koga – In RB, if you have Earthquake, you do well. Without it, you are less effective, although to be honest Koga isn’t really that big of a deal in RB. In Yellow, you do ok too because his Pokémon are frail bugs (albeit high level ones).
    Sabrina – Her Pokémon are frail. You can outspeed and KO her Pokémon with your STAB move.
    Blaine – Earthquake is a huge help here. Even without it you can contribute, and Strength obviously gets the job done against Growlithe and Ponyta in RB, but it needs Earthquake to reliable pull off a quick sweep.
    Giovanni – If you have an Ice (or at least Ground) move then you’ll do well. His Rock types wall you otherwise. Still, your Normal move can hit Dugtrio, Persian, Nidoqueen and Nidoking.
    Lorelei – Tauros can learn Electric moves and if you have one then you cover everything except Jynx, who is KOed by your STAB anyway. But just like most of the other match-ups, it is less effective without the TM support, capable of contributing but not powering through.
    Bruno – Unless you have an Ice move or Earthquake, Onix walls you. Machamp is a huge threat thanks to its bulk and Submission. If you have a Special move then Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are less threatening, but Hitmonlee’s fighting moves are very powerful against Tauros.
    Agatha – Earthquake is needed for her Ghosts. Otherwise, you are hopeless against them. At least Golbat and Arbok can be beaten though.
    Lance – Ice and Electric covers everything. Without them, Aerodactyl walls you, and Gyarados and Dragonite are harder to take down.
    Blue – How useful you are comes down to what you taught it. It should be noted that Rhydon is the only thing that resists Normal though, so at least you can contribute using just your STAB.
    -Additional Comments: Tauros can be amazing if you give it the support from TMs, but without them it isn’t as impressive. Mono-Normal can be described as “reliable”, but it needs the TMs to be able to power through most of the important match-ups as quickly as possible. Given how late Tauros comes, and how difficult it can be to obtain (especially in RB) and train (especially in Yellow), it is difficult to assume that Tauros will have access to its favourite TMs. The final nail in the coffin is its availability. In RB, just catching it can be an excruciating time drain. In Yellow it benefits from a higher encounter rate but is even more underleveled and still have the same problems with catching it, what with the Safari Zone mechanics. If you manage to get it quickly and you can provide it with at least some of its TMs, then it isn’t a bad choice, but it just isn’t a good idea to plan your playthrough with the intent of using it on your team.


    And I promise to be more careful about how I use the word "availability" if you disagree with how I use it. I really don't mind one way or the other, because it's just a word/section and as long as everyone is considering and placing importance on all the same factors when pokemon are tiered then that's all that matters.
  6. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    I like the Sleep Powder/Growth/Mega Drain/Body Slam set on Victrebell. With that set you can actually evolve Weepinbell as soon as you get to Celadon due to not worrying about Razor Leaf, and it does much better against Lorelei.
  7. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I gave it a mention. Honestly I personally don't like boosting sets much but I can see the advantages of using it over a simple Razor Leaf spam set (mainly the freedom to evolve as soon as possible).
  8. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    On Lance you forgot to mention how Vicreebell does against Gyarados.

    Also on Agatha I would mention Golbat has Wing Attack.

    But other than that, I agree with your writeups.
  9. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    Wing Attack's base power is 30... Getting hit by a STAB super effective Wing attack is the same as getting hit by a Take Down...
  10. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    The main problem of this is the low PP of Mega Drain(10) but using Elixirs and Ethers... and I don't think Mega Drain is too much necessary at the point of envolving Victribeel due the lack of Rocks.

    Actually has 35, but doesn't change the fact that it sucks.
  11. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    oh right, that Wing Attack base power slipped my mind.

    Agree on Mega Drain having PP issues, admittingly. What do you mean by lack of Rocks though?
  12. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    After Rock Tunnel there are few Rock mons to fight against and Body Slam can save PP since it is neutral against everything bar Rocks and Ghosts(Victribeel shouldn't face them anyways and bar in Pokemon Tower and Agatha nobody uses them)

    Ok I remember Graveler from Victory Road but...
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Has anyone read the Sandslash write-up on the first page? It has him as High Tier, yet by the way its worded, basically comes across as saying that it has a tough time against everyone but Surge, Giovanni, and the Poison trainers.

    Oh, I thought by lack of Rocks you meant lack of Team Rock(et)s. Thanks for clearing that out.
  14. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,041
    I'm gonna rewrite that Sandshrew entry, it's horrendous.

    Someone do Psyduck already.
  15. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I'm not sure who is going to do Psyduck (I thought Hemp Man was using it in his playthrough so I assume he will write it eventually but I can do it if he doesn't want to) but I think Psyduck may warrant a split entry for different versions, if whoever writes it up can be bothered.

    In RB, you can catch Psyduck at level 28-32 (Blue players can even catch a Golduck at level 39, although it's a bit rare and Psyduck evolves at level 33 anyway). Then you can level it up at Cinnabar Island like all of the other Seafoam Island Water types. That sounds like a Mid tier pokemon to me. It probably should be on the same level as Horsea and Poliwag, who are also in Mid and are fairly similar in function (that last bit mainly applies to Horsea).

    In Yellow, it sounds a lot worse. Psyduck only comes at level 15. Golduck can be caught at level 20, but they have a 5% encounter rate. I would probably go for Golduck because Psyduck is a weakling and I don't want to have to level it up nearly 20 levels to evolve. Either way, it is severely underleveled and it's a long way to go to catch up. It seems like a Low tier pokemon in Yellow. So yeah, I think a split entry is justifiable but if the writer can't be bothered, the entry should be in Mid, but with emphasis on how it isn't as useful an option in Yellow as it is in RB.

    Thoughts?
  16. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Actually I didn't get around to using Psyduck. :/

    Alright, I restarted Blue and will use Psyduck. You can do a Yellow run with him if you want to.
  17. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Hey, sorry to double post I haven't forgotten about doing Psyduck. Golduck is actually doing very well so far. Psyduck isn't that strong, but you catch him at Level 30ish and that is close to evolution. Sabrina, Blaine, and Giovanni were pretty easy for Golduck. Unlike the listed mid-tier Water types (Seadra/Poliwrath/Tentacruel), Golduck doesn't really struggle against Psychic due to a Usable Physical Attack Stat/no Psychic Weakness.

    So far I think Golduck could be better than mid-tier, but maybe the E4 battles will change my mind.
  18. Naix

    Naix

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    377
    If nobody minds, I'll be playtesting more Pokemon in Red, with the goal this time being to fix up the... less than satisfactory entries. (I'm currently looking at Clefairy, Drowzee, Flareon, and Electabuzz.) I'll also be using a starter and Farfetch'd, but if anybody has a suggestion of something for me to use in place of DUX, please mention it within 12 hours of this post, as that's when I'll most likely start. Also, I will not be rewriting the entry for whichever starter I use.
  19. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    Hey guys, any thoughts on the level 38-39 Slowbro found in Seafoam islands? In Red, you even have a 4% encounter rate on the 4th level-- it's low but not undoable; and it comes at level 39-- 9 levels higher than the "high" tier Staryu obtained at the same location. Slowbro might not have the speed or immediate power Starmie does, but I think that its typing/overall good stats/Amnesia abuse might warrant at least a Mid Tier ranking. This is adding back to the whole late-game-water-types-are-good band wagon.

    Thoughts? (Volunteers to test it?)
  20. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    It was me that did the current Slowpoke entry, and I have to admit that I have thought about that before. When I used it before, I caught it as a level 15 Slowpoke by fishing, and I hated it. Slowpoke was one of the worst pokemon I had ever used in this game. However, I'm not sure if I gave Slowpoke a fair deal. Note that this was before I realised that the Seafoam Island water types were such good choices, and I kind of wish I'd thought to do it that way at the time. The only real downside about getting it from Seafoam Islands is that you need to beat Koga first, who is one of its best match-ups, but other than that the Seafoam islands one is likely better (not to mention Koga sucks).

    I didn't even find Slowbro to be that good overall, although I wasn't using Amnesia (I didn't have room for it). It seemed better on paper than in practice. Even after evolution, Slowbro kept losing to trainers that I was expecting it to do well against because it was so slow and struggled to OHKO some of the stronger opponents (which means taking at least 2 hits before killing things). It had a harder time blasting through trainers with lots of pokemon compared to many of the other late game water types, because it kept getting worn down. I did have a Softboiled Chansey on me at the time so it wasn't so bad, but you need to stock up on healing items to support it. You should have enough cash for that though.

    I guess Slowbro is ok if you catch it as a Slowbro at a high level, assuming you don't get unlucky with encountering it. However, catching Slowbro isn't possible in Blue, and in Yellow it is either very rare or underleveled (depending on where you catch it). I honestly wouldn't be too fussed about a shift up to Mid. Level 39 is excellent at that point. I'd rather someone retest it first before moving it though. I really don't think that it is as good as it first seems, but it probably isn't as bad as my personal experiences with it suggest.
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    Well we are talking about Mid Tier here, not high. Level 15 Horsea is a mid-tier pokemon right now. I'd expect Slowbro to be more useful (because let's face it, Seadra is a pretty mediocre shit). Use Amnesia... Amnesia is what makes Slowbro... Slowbro... I'm not sure when/if I'll find time to try, but I think Slowbro should get a fair shot using the moveset: Psychic / Ice Beam / Surf / Amnesia

    By the way availability in Seafoam Islands:

    Blue: Floor 1 / Level 38 / 1% Encounter
    Yellow: Floor 2 / Level 31 / 1% Ecounter
    Red: Floor 2 / Level 37 / 1% Encounter
    Red: Floor 4 / Level 39 / 4% Encounter

    So yeah, Red has the best chance to grab this bad boy, but it's doable in Yellow and Blue. Obviously, bro would be hampered in Yellow (to the point where you'd consider getting a Slowpoke of the same level and getting Amnesia 4 levels earlier). Odds are good that you'll run into one naturally though if you're looking to get Articuno.

    Still, if Red (and maybe blue) Slowbro deserves a mid-tier rank (or better!) that should be reflected in the tiering.
  22. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    I agree that on paper, Slowbro seems like it should be better than Seadra, even with the Speed issue. I think atsync also wrote the Horsea entry as well, so maybe he/she can fill us in on this.
  23. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    While we're on this note though, Psyduck is the last Pokemon, and I'm going to bet that the Seafoam floor 4 / level 39 / 4% encounter Golduck is Psyduck's best chance at excelling too. Maybe play through on an emulator and make 1 savefile to test both (the save files are transferrable between blue/red roms). Golduck is basically Slowbro, with shittier bulk, no Psychic STAB, and usable Speed (same access to Amnesia, same attacking moves).

    edit: nvm about amnesia. I have no idea why Golduck's RBY strategydex has Amnesia but Golduk can't get it in RBY through level up.
  24. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    I'm actually using Golduck in my current run right now. I found a Level 30 Psyduck and caught that. Psyduck is mediocre, but it evolved 3 levels later, and is doing well so far. I'll probably have time do to the E4 with Golduck sometime later this week. So I'll let you guys know about that.

    And yeah, I too thought he could learn Amnesia but I guess he can't. :/
  25. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    Amnesia is from Pokemon Stadium I think, like Surf Pikachu.

    I didn't write Seadra, Garud did. However, I'll try and defend it by saying that the level 15 problem is exclusively a Blue thing. In Red, Horsea can be caught at around level 30 and it evolves at level 32. Naturally, Cinnabar makes it easy it catch up, and it's not like Horsea is that weak for an unevolved pokemon. 70 Special and 60 Speed is fine for 2 or so levels. If that's too much of a problem then you can find a Seadra at level 39 at a 4% encounter rate (sound familiar?). In Yellow, you can fish up a Seadra with the Super Rod at as high as level 35 and it comes earlier.

    Seadra has 95 Special and Defence, and 85 Speed. It is basically a pure-Water type Kingdra with less Attack and HP. I know its stats aren't jaw-droppingly amazing, but I would not call it a mediocre piece of shit by any means (compare it to some of the other water types and you'll see that Seadra has more initial power and speed than some of them, and it is only slightly weaker than Starmie in terms of damage output). I think Mid is fine for it, at least in Red and Yellow. It's mainly let down by offering nothing outside of Surf/Ice move, unlike some of the other late-game waters who have better coverage or an extra STAB or even boosted experience, but it's still decent in its own right. Blue Horsea probably should be Low but it depends on how pedantic we want to be about splitting the entries.

    But yeah honestly I agree with the reasons for Slowpoke in Mid that you have given, at least from a theoretical point of view. I've already said that I wouldn't be bothered/offended by a boost to Mid (I have already made compromises when it comes to my own personal views on particular placements, believe me), but I'll wait and see what other people find from retesting it.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)