Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

[Lucchini]

I don't know how a comparison between Magikarp and Clefairy is even possible. The most apparent boon Clefairy has going for it is evolving right off the bat, with very respectable base stats for that point in the game, and just on time for a hard gym (Misty). Pretty much the opposite of Magikarp's situation. Gyarados does turn out to be the better specialist of the two, since its Thunderbolt and Ice Beam/Blizzard will hurt more than Clefable's.

I brought up Clefairy a little while ago, and my suggestion to move it up was rejected because it's apparently not getting any of the TMs it wants, and it's hard to find in Mt Moon. I personally think Clefable is comparable to Nidoking in much of what it does for you, minus the ground/poison typing (which can be both good or bad depending on the situation), and the whole OHKO+X Accuracy thing (should be considered for other users of these moves besides Nidoking; Tauros for instance). Nidoking won't be so effective with just Thrash and Surf, I say, you're certainly supposed to give it those TMs we agree on being "highly contested".

 

[Longfellow]

I think you underestimate how much exp. matters. Clefable, being in the fast exp. track, can reach level 58 in the same amount of experience it takes the slow Gyarados to hit level 50. This means either (1) you run Clefable at a higher level than Gyarados and it thereby does more damage with Boltbeam or (2) you run everyone at the same level and Gyarados just brings the team down.

Clefable and Gyarados are super-comparable in their movepools: has a weak physical move as its only level-up move, can learn lots of TM, will probably get Bubblebeam and maybe a Normal-type TM. Gyarados does differentiate itself with Surf later on, but until then Clefable can do most things Gyarados does, better.

Edit: also, are we supposed to assume every team runs Nidoking (/Abra/Squirtle/the other most efficient Pokémon)? I understand why TMs are highly contested, but I don't think the tier list should assume that every Pokémon is seeking entry into an otherwise ideal team.

 

[Hemp Man]

Edit: wait, Clefairy in low? Unless we're weighing availability really heavily Clefairy should be at least the better end of mid. At least better than Magikarp--similarly dependent on TMs but doesn't need babying and levels faster/hits harder until Gyarados gets Surf (which doesn't have great end-game coverage anyways).

Clefable may level-up faster, but Gyarados can 2HKO everything with Dragon Rage until it gets Surf anyway. Although I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing Clefable moved up to Mid, you can ask Naix since I think he wrote that review.

 

[Mekkah]

@Longfellow: Based on your responses, I think you are referring to the list in the OP, which is a bit out of date. The most up to date list is the one in my post third from the top on this page.

I will not stand for such accusations!

OP updated.

 

[Longfellow]

I hadn't thought about Dragon Rage. It probably gives Gyarados the advantage in Pokémon Tower and against Erika if you don't want to give Clefable Ice Beam or Psychic.

But yeah, we can argue minutiae but the point is that Clefairy can do what Magikarp does mostly and has perks of its own, and therefore belongs roughly equal to, if not above, Magikarp on the tier list.

It for sure belongs above Ponyta..

 

[atsync]

It's funny that you bring up Ponyta because I've been using it in Yellow, and I've been very underwhelmed by it.

Firstly, I think RB Ponyta should definitely be Low. We have already put Magmar and Yellow Growlithe in Low and I fail to see what Ponyta has over them that is noteworthy enough to put it in a higher tier.

Yellow Ponyta has it slightly better off because it arrives at the Cycling Road. I tested it to see if this was enough to salvage it but I'm not convinced it is. The main thing that I can say in its defence is that it comes at a reasonable level 32 (the repel trick is very good for luring level 32 Ponyta out and I found one in minutes). The problem I had with it is that it just isn't powerful enough. I even saved Body Slam for it but it wasn't able to OHKO anything. This isn't good because the next routes (either Cycling Road or routes 12-15) are some of the hardest in the game in my opinion, and being able to kill things quickly is important. Ponyta just couldn't keep up and I had to fly back to a pokemon centre at least 3 times to heal it. Once you get through them and Koga's gym, Yellow Ponyta is in almost the exact same situation as RB Ponyta.

Overall, the earlier availability in Yellow didn't really improve Ponyta that much so I would call it Low.

And then I read the analysis we have for it at the moment and it's telling me that Hyper Beam is "practically mandatory"? How is that supposed to convince me that Ponyta is a Mid tier pokemon?

(rant over)

I haven't used Clefairy ever, but in theory it doesn't seem that bad. It looks like it could act as a mini-Nidoqueen/king, with slightly higher Special and HP and access to good STAB sooner, in exchange for Attack and Speed, as well as arriving slightly later. Honestly don't care whether it gets bumped up or not, but a bump up to Mid COULD be justified if enough people thinks that Low Clefairy is clearly wrong.

If anyone else disagrees with Red Growlithe in High and would like to write another entry that puts it in Mid to replace it then I'm ok with that. I still stand by where I placed it but having Growlithe in High is not something I'm overly passionate about so I'm not going to fight against a drop or anything if that's what people want.

I'll probably be commenting on other things I''ve been using soon.

 

[Hemp Man]

I used Ponyta in Yellow. Was good for Erika and Koga, then was kinda useless until it evolved, where it became just OK. Stomp flinches were fun.

 

[Longfellow]

I don't think any Pokémon whose only attack is a non-STAB Normal move can be that good, especially if that move is a TM. Ponyta is pretty bad even for such a Pokémon, evolving late and even then being unable to swing as hard as Kingler, Flareon, Pinsir, Hitmonchan, etc.

FWIW I think Clefairy belongs in high, but mid is arguable (depends on how much you weigh different parts of the game; I would argue for Clefairy over the late-game waters but I'll leave that quesiton alone for now). I can make a good case for it independent of how it compares to Magikarp, too. Clefairy does depend on TMs but isn't needy of any one in particular--compare it to Growlithe who can't function without Dig or Flareon who needs Body Slam or Double-Edge to not suck. It can use Mega Punch (Clefable's Mega Punch is the strongest move in Mt. Moon), Water Gun, Bubblebeam, Thunder Wave, Thunder/bolt, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Psychic, Body Slam (Clefable's Body Slam is still one of the strongest moves in the game around the time you get it), Tri Attack, Double-Edge, and Hyper Beam. Some of these TMs are not that high-demand either, like Bubblebeam, Psychic, and Tri Attack. This power and flexibility is way, way beyond low tier and the fact that it can be compared to Nidoran and post-babying Magikarp speaks volumes to its utility.



EDIT to gloat about Farfetch'd. Right now I'm doing a run with Clefable, Gyarados, Farfetch'd, Raichu, Raticate, and Hitmonlee, and I'm giving each Pokémon equal experience from their point of capture (instead of equal level--that way I can more fairly compare Pokémon of different exp. rates). Right now I'm at Blaine with about 60,000 experience per Pokémon (levels range from 36 to 45) and playing Blaine with different Pokémon.

So Farfetch'd's Slash is doing the same damage as Gyarados's Surf. Against Fire Pokémon. Just sayin'. (I think my Gyarados has a bad Special IV though)

 

[Hemp Man]

So Farfetch'd's Slash is doing the same damage as Gyarados's Surf. Against Fire Pokémon. Just sayin'. (I think my Gyarados has a bad Special IV though)

If I remember correctly all Fire types have higher Special Defense than Regular Defense, except Arcanine whose defenses are equal.

As far as Ponyta goes, I think its main problem is the late evolution. :/ Would have been an okay fire type if not for that.

 

[Longfellow]

I don't get what would be good about Ponyta if it did evolve early, though. Unless I'm missing something, it gets 5 PP of Fire Blast before it becomes another mediocre non-STAB physical attacker. Aside from Fire Blast/Fire Spin I don't see how it's much different from Aerodactyl, Hitmonchan, Grimer, etc.



Just beat the game. Impressions:

Farfetch'd: hits like a truck. Main problem is being slow.
Clefairy: really reliable with Tri Attack/Psychic.
Hitmonlee: really good, especially against the Elite Four.
Magikarp: had a slow early-mid-game that was partly my fault because I was stupid and gave Bubblebeam to Clefairy instead. Got better once it got boltbeam.
Raichu: Thunderbolt is good but there are a lot of Grass Pokémon.
Raticate: was my Digger and did it well. Isn't good in endgame though.

 

[Lucchini]

Ponyta is one of the best unevolved Pokemon though. 85 base attack and 90 base speed with the other bases at least above 50. The problem is that this really isn't the fire-type's favourite region, as well as the lack of a powerful, accurate STAB.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'd be hard pressed to give a good rating to any Fire-type besides Charizard (who is honestly pretty mediocre/bad at the Elite Four). There's really no reason to have a Fire-type at all in this game, and fire-type as a whole is pretty pointless until GSC (steel-type introduced). I'd honestly throw them all in low and be done with it. Ninetales/Vulpix are crap until they get Flamethrower (takes forever), and still pretty much suck after that. Arcanine / Flareon are inferior to just about anything that has STAB on Normal. Ponyta/Motres are inferior to Arcanine/Flareon, that's saying something.

Clefable sounds pretty legit actually-- STAB makes it hit as hard as a lot of these non-normal types we're kicking around, and I'm always amazed how people forget/underestimate Mega Punch, just because it misses some.

The fact it can make use of Tri-Attack to is pretty awesome. However, it shouldn't be ranked as high as Snorlax, 'cause lax is uber and a lot more accessible than Clefairy (who is pretty hit-or-miss in finding). If Clefairy goes to high, I say we bump Snorlax to Top. Snorlax is arguably Top-tier material anyway.

 

[atsync]

Well, I would not be ok with dropping Red Growlithe into Low. It is definitely way better than most of the other Fire types. Dependence on Dig is a legitimate flaw, but it is capable of so much more than, say, Ponyta with Body Slam. Mid I can accept though.

If we are going down this route of "Fire sucks in 1st gen", I guess we could set it up like this:

Top

Charmander (RB)

High

Charmander (Y)

Mid

Growlithe (R)

Low

Ponyta
Vulpix
Flareon
Growlithe (Y)
Moltres
Magmar

 

[Hemp Man]

I could see Flareon staying mid, but other than that, I'm fine with those changes.

Problem with Fire it doesnt really have the best SE coverage: Bug (early game only), Grass (you'll have Fly and Ice Beam available while most likely your fire type only as Ember), and Ice (so basically just Jynx).

 

[Longfellow]

Well the only thing Growlithe has in common with the other Fire-types is 5 PP of Fire Blast (and small stuff like Ember and type weakness). It's better to compare it to other Pokémon who play a similar role, i.e. mid-game Dig. Just eyeballing it, Growlithe looks worse than the mid-tier Mankey and Rattata but a bit better than Paras, Ekans, Vulpix, and Machop. So I'd say it could go either way.

Flareon is worse than Growlithe, no question, and as such belongs in low.

Ponyta has use as a Horn Drill user, actually. If we're incorporating OHKO+X-Accuracy into the ratings that alone might be reason enough to put Ponyta in mid as it'll be able to sweep Giovanni and Lorelei. It doesn't look like most of the descriptions take it into account though...?

Anyways I'm running a team with Growlithe now and next run I'll test Mankey and compare how they do.

 

[Naix]

Flareon is worse than Growlithe, no question, and as such belongs in low.

I'm sorry, but as a person who recently used Flareon I can attest to it being Mid without a doubt. Earlier you said Flareon needs Body Slam or Double-Edge, when from my experience, Body Slam helped a lot but it wasn't as necessary as say, Thunderbolt on Voltorb or Jolteon, because although Flareon's low Defense when combined with the fact that it has trouble OHKOing anything not weak to its attacks without Body Slam means it can get worn down easily, Flareon can usually 2HKO almost everything it goes up against with just Ember (Red/Blue) or Bite (Yellow), reducing its need for it. Offensively, its stats are great, with the second highest Attack in the game, an impressive Special on par with its eeveelution bretheren, and a very convenient Speed stat. While it doesn't do well against most of the Gym Leaders and Elite Four, keep in mind most of the game's other Fire-types aren't doing too much better. Overall, while Flareon definitely has its less than favorable moments, it is easily better than everything else in Low and as such has a comfortable place in Mid.

While I haven't used Growlithe in any Gen I game, it's worth noting that it takes more experience to level up than Flareon. Another thing of note is that Arcanine's Attack and Special are less than that of Flareon, meaning it'll do less damage on average unless fighting a Poison-type, provided Arcanine has Dig in its arsenal. Those stats go toward its bulk, which helps against anything that survives its attacks (which considering Flareon has trouble securing OHKOs on anything without the assistance of Body Slam or a type advantage, this easily applies to Arcanine as well), and Speed, which only really comes into play in major battles.

 

[atsync]

Yeah I agree with the idea that Growlithe is quite different from other Fire types. Growlithe is Fire-type but, like Charizard, doesn't really use Fire in battling, so comparing it to something like Vulpix doesn't tell you much.

But yeah go ahead and test, it's nice to get more than one opinion on things. I think what you'll find with Growlithe is that it starts off a bit slowly because it's underleveled, but it can grind ok because Dig is supereffective against some of the wild and trainer pokemon on its route. I think I caught a level 18 Growlithe and grinded against wild pokemon to level 22 before going for some of the Poison type trainers on the route. Once you reach Celadon you can evolve it and it really takes off. I wonder if it would be viable to head to Celadon as soon as possible to evolve it and then return to route 8 to make grinding easier...

Actually thinking about it, it probably is worse than Mankey, although this doesn't automatically force Growlithe into Low (we tier things based on what they themselves are capable of, not because something else can do something similar but better). If we put Growlithe in Mid and see it as worse than other Mid tier pokemon, then I guess the tone of the analysis would need to be changed to imply that yes, this is a good user of Dig and belongs in Mid based on its own merits, but it is outclassed by other things and you should consider them before Growlithe. That's how I approached Goldeen when I wrote that one up.

Yeah generally OHKO moves have been avoided. It's a tricky issue because obviously they are there and it seems stupid to just pretend they don't exist, but at the same time it kind of dumbs any potential discussion in this thread down because you can just take any shitty pokemon that learns it and say "oh this pokemon is crap but it gets Horn Drill so it can be good". I guess it also depends on whether you consider the X-Accuracy + OHKO move combo to be a "glitch" or not, which is subjective depending on who you ask. I'm inclined to say it isn't, but it's not like I designed the game so what would I know?

Not sure whether it would be enough to save Ponyta anyway. Normally I see OHKO moves as supplements to whatever else a pokemon has. Like, if you look at something like Seaking, it has Water and Ice moves which allows it to do well late game, and then you you can have Horn Drill to beat stuff that stops the rest of your moves (Lorelei). With Ponyta it seems like it would end up being about sweeping a team with Horn Drill until its 5 PP runs out, and then... what? Fire Blast and Body Slam/Stomp everything else?

----------------------------------------------------------------

So anyway I've been testing stuff too and have comments.

I tested Venonat in Yellow just to see if the better availability would be enough to improve it. Sadly, it took way too long to take off. Venonat is pathetic with Tackle and Confusion as its only attacks. It would be lucky to 4HKO things with Confusion. It was ok once it evolved but it was too little too late. Basically it takes too long to evolve and too long to get its best moves (you could use the Psychic TM on it I guess but I'm not sure if I'd want to use it on Venomoth) at which point it isn't even that amazing. So Yellow Venonat is Low alongside the RB version.

I've also been testing Hitmonlee. I think having it in High is ok, although it would be right near the bottom of High if we were ranking things in a specific order. I didn't like how frail it was, which is a pain if you miss or can't OHKO something with high attack power (it sometimes can't against Fighting resistant stuff). Still, it can OHKO a lot of things, and it is so easy to get. You basically walk into Saffron as soon as possible and take it after beating the fighting trainers, and it doesn't require any grinding. I didn't even give it a normal move initially (I gave it Strength eventually) and it was still fine as it can Meditate to barge through even stuff that resists its kicking moves (this only works against weak things though so I wouldn't try it against something like Weezing with Sludge on Cycling Road). Being unable to hit ghosts at all is amusing, but they are thankfully rare.

Definitely way better than Hitmonchan at least!

Honestly Hitmonlee is one of those "it can go either way" kinds of pokemon where I'd be fine if it were in Mid or High. It's in High now so I guess it can stay there.

 

[Longfellow]

@Naix: Well, comparing damages gives Flareon's Body Slam a small but significant edge over Growlithe in non-Poison matches which makes for a more comfortable late-game. I still think Growlithe comes out ahead when you factor in Pokémon Tower and the ridiculous amount of Poisons in the game, though your argument has given me pause.

As for whether Flareon is better than everything in low, I dunno. It's pretty similar to Jigglypuff--slightly weaker Body Slam, less sturdy, more dependent on particular TMs, and has fewer tricks, but is faster and gets Fire Blast. Then again, maybe Jigglypuff belongs in mid itself. Caterpie might be better too but it's also a borderline case.

So yeah, you haven't convinced me but I'm no longer confident in my first answer.

Also I think I come off as harsh too so I'm fine with it.

@atsync: I like to compare Pokémon though just to get a feel for how they rank. I do think Mankey outclasses Growlithe but the real question is whether Growlithe "looks like" Mankey more than it "looks like" Paras or Ekans. But you knew that already.

Hitmonlee's weird. It's the best in the game at a couple things, like beating (RB) Lorelei and damage output on Normal-types. And then it dies in one hit to like Sludge or Razor Leaf. I think how good it is depends a lot its team.

You can give it Seismic Toss if you want a silly way to kill Ghosts.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think Flareon is also in the same bag as R Growlithe, in that it's a Fire-type that's not-really-a-fire-type (relies more on physical moves) that fully evolves to great stats in Celadon, but suffers from a mediocre move pool and TM reliance.

The big difference is Flareon doesn't get Dig-- I'd say this is a pretty defining difference considering how much credit we're giving Dig growlithe.

Oh, though Eevee comes at a much better level than Growlithe (25 v. 18-20) and levels up faster.

@Yellow Venonat-- yeah, showing up at the same part of the game where you're babying your bulbasaur/belsprout to beat Misty doesn't do it any favors either. It has 0 favorable match ups.

 

[Hemp Man]

I used Flareon in a Yellow run and it destroyed the Poison types easily with Body Slam, although I suppose you can mention Arcanine actually does better against Rock types...but I think most people would just go to their Water or Grass Pokemon and get a OHKO on it.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Hitmonlee gives you a great Pokemon to use against Team Rocket and their annoying Raticates. It's one of the best choices against Kangaskhan/Persian, and I'd say it's the best Fighting-type in Kanto (only Poliwrath gives it a run for its money, but Poliwag doesn't exist until Fuchsia/Silence Bridge) if not for being completely helpless against Gengar outside of Seismic Toss which cannot 2HKO Gengar without overlevelling.

On Arcanine vs. Flareon, Growlithe comes with Ember already in RB I'd say Arcanine > Flareon on account that Growlithe gets to win a gym while you still need to give Flareon 6 levels. Growlithe being able to beat Erika immediately upon capture is one thing that can't be overlooked, although you can argue that Erika is essentially optional until a lot later...

 

[Hemp Man]

Flareon doesn't even need a Fire move to hurt Erika as Body Slam off a 130 Base Attack will seriously hurt her Victrebel and Vileplume (although needing the TM could count as a flaw on Flareons part). Another thing is that her Pokemon are Level 29, which Flareon could easily get to as it comes at Level 25 and can beat up trainers in Erika's gym to get to that level. Arcanine will come at a lower level, and will level up slowly.

 

[atsync]

Loving the discussion going on here!

I'm more comfortable with Hitmonlee in High over Mid now. It does have a lot of strengths, and I guess as long as we make it clear that it needs support and shouldn't just be thrown onto any old team then it's ok.

Some of these arguments are starting to sway me in favour of Flareon. Maybe. It is easier and more convenient to obtain and it requires less experience, although I think I'd prefer to have an Arcanine with Dig on my team over a Flareon with Body Slam. Actually I'd prefer an Arcanine with Dig AND Body Slam over a Flareon with just Body Slam...

Maybe we SHOULD just shove them both in Mid?

@Longfellow: I think that comparisons are ok as a way of making sure that the tiers actually make sense (e.g. when I moved Bellsprout down from high to mid because Bellsprout being above Yellow Bulbasaur made no sense to me). You just have to make sure that the comparison isn't the ONLY reason you are moving something down, and that you can actually justify something being in a particular tier beyond the comparison (like what you did with Clefairy: you argued that it shouldn't be in Low because it shouldn't be below Magikarp but you also gave legitimate reasons regarding Clefairy's abilities as to why it should be above Low).

Oh, and I forgot about how Seismic Toss actually hits Ghosts in 1st gen! Not that it helps it a lot, but whatever.

@TM13IceBeam: Ember doesn't really add up to much. Erika's pokemon aren't going to be OHKOed by it because it is too weak. They'll survive and status you. You'll still win one-on-one most likely but the Normal/Flying types are always better and Flareon can work just as well as Arcanine (if not better).

 

[Hemp Man]

This was my memory of using Flareon.

-Celadon Game Corner: Body Slam Destruction
-Erika: Body Slam Destruction
-Pokemon Tower: Ember ain't too helpful
-Cylcing Road: Body Slam Destruction
-Koga: Weezing has good DEF but Koga's movesets are a joke, Body Slam Destruction!
-Silph Co Rocket Members: Body Slam Destruction
-Sabrina: Can't take on her whole team, but for the most part Flareon can take a Special hit and retaliate with Body Slam Destruction!
-On the way to Cinnabar: Flareon can beat up some of the weaker Water types actually, but not all of them
-Blaine: Body Slam Destruction...if you don't get Stomp flinch hax.
-Giovanni: No
-Lorelei: No
-Bruno: Somewhat useful
-Agatha: No
-Lance: No

As you can see Flareon was great when I got it, but towards the end of the game its value diminished. I suppose all Fire types kinda fall for that though, even Charizard.

 

[Organization Member XIV]

This was my memory of using Flareon.

-Celadon Game Corner: Body Slam Destruction
-Erika: Body Slam Destruction
-Pokemon Tower: Ember ain't too helpful
-Cylcing Road: Body Slam Destruction
-Koga: Weezing has good DEF but Koga's movesets are a joke, Body Slam Destruction!
-Silph Co Rocket Members: Body Slam Destruction
-Sabrina: Can't take on her whole team, but for the most part Flareon can take a Special hit and retaliate with Body Slam Destruction!
-On the way to Cinnabar: Flareon can beat up some of the weaker Water types actually, but not all of them
-Blaine: Body Slam Destruction...if you don't get Stomp flinch hax.
-Giovanni: No
-Lorelei: No
-Bruno: Somewhat useful
-Agatha: No
-Lance: No

As you can see Flareon was great when I got it, but towards the end of the game its value diminished. I suppose all Fire types kinda fall for that though, even Charizard.

What about the Blue fight?