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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. Naix

    Naix

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    Flareon doesn't exactly do well against any boss not named Erika, Sabrina, or Giovanni. It's also let down by its mediocre physical bulk should its opponent withstand a Body Slam.

    On a different note, am I the only one who feels iffy about Nidoran (F) in Top? Most of the Pokemon that can be obtained before the first Gym typically learn either a useful non-normal STAB move (RB starters, Yellow Mankey) or a notably powerful attack (Nidoran (M), Rattata) within 5-10 levels of catching it, and Nidoran (F) belongs to neither of the above categories, causing it to (theoretically, as I haven't tested it yet) fall behind in comparison to your other party members until it evolves. Even then, its best move is either Double Kick or Poison Sting, both of which have poor type coverage outside of the former being SE against Rock-types, until it gets Body Slam, which isn't quite as good as her brother's Thrash. Also, while Nidoqueen has superior bulk than Nidoking, I'd prefer taking no damage thanks to OHKOing everything in sight to taking little damage by virtue of good defenses. I will concede that SPOT's (that is, the Nidoran (F) you can get in a trade) advantage of boosted experience is a great help, but in order to get it you need do prevent a Nidoran (M) from evolving until meeting Bill, hampering its potential. Another thing to remember about it is that said trade is only in Red and Blue, and because Nidoran (M) are so uncommon in Blue said trade might as well be exclusive to Red. Because of the factors I mentioned above, I believe Nidoran (F) is more worthy of High or even Mid than Top. I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts on it, though, and I will definitely test it out before completely rewriting the current entry (should that be neccessary).

    Speaking of rewrites, just a reminder that if you're confident that a current entry needs changed and you're confident in (and are ready to defend) what content your revision would have in it, nobody's stopping you from rewriting an already-existing entry.
  2. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Not even that, it's just that Flareon's Body Slam is unremarkable. Clefable, Dodrio, Farfetch'd, Hitmonlee, Kingler, Persian, Raticate, Snorlax, and Wigglytuff all both hit just as hard or harder with Body Slam and learn other moves. And evem more Pokémon get through mid-game through some other strong (STAB) move. Dig, for instance, or Wartortle/Gyarados's Bubblebeam, or the Psychic types' Confusion.

    Flareon's Body Slam gets the job done but it's not special, thus mid-tier.

    NidoranF's main problem IIRC is it doesn't get Horn Attack. In all other ways she's really similar to NidoranM. The difference in base stats is small--a NidoranF with a high attack DV will have a higher attack than a NidoranM with a low DV. NidoranF shares NidoranM's TM compatibility which is the main reason they're good.

    I guess the question is whether Horn Attack is the x factor. Without it NidoranF actually doesn't have much more to offer than Clefairy, to beat that dead horse again.

    Speaking of which, I'll go ahead and rewrite it. I'll do another run first just to be sure.
  3. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I still think both are Top. I really don't like the idea of putting one above the other because both are great choices with their own advantages.

    Horn Attack is decent but I don't remember it being as powerful as it first seems. It still struggles to kill sometimes and the damage can pile up, and it doesn't stop Nidoran-M from being underwhelming before the TMs come along, although clearly Nidoran-M outclasses Nidoran-F early on.

    Also, don't forget that Nidoqueen and Nidoking have the same Special stat (75), which means that Nidoking's "extra power" only exists when it uses a physical attack (and even then there are very few situations where the extra power would change a 2HKO to a 1HKO). If you end up using mostly special attacks on your Nidoran (Earthquake + special moves or something) then the difference will be almost irrelevent.

    One way of looking at it is this: do you want your selected Nidoran to learn Body Slam but are planning to use it alongside something that also wants it (e.g. Venusaur, Pikachu)? If yes, you use Nidoran-F so you can get Body Slam by level up on Nidoqueen and are free to use the TM on Venusaur/whoever. If you don't care about this, use Nidoran-M. Of course, the fact that the encounter rates differ by Red vs. Blue means that Nidoran-F may be a more efficient choice depending on version (the encounter rates are equal in Yellow). Personally, I just take whichever I see first and use that.

    @Naix: You think that Nidoqueen's Body Slam "isn't quite as good as her brother's Thrash"? Thrash has 5 extra base power over Body Slam in RBY which is honestly insignificant, and Body Slam has an awesome side effect and doesn't lock into itself (the latter of these advantages isn't that huge though, since playing in Shift mode helps cancel this out and chances are that you were probably going to spam Thrash anyway).
  4. JSND

    JSND

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    I actualy thought that Nidoqueen is better than Nidoking. Body Slam + Surf is crazy good. Yeah, Body Slam Para Chance and non locking is actualy better than Thrash Locking.

    Both Nidoran are tbh pretty hard to train early on
  5. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    I dunno, Nidoking gets quite good at Mt. Moon and Nidoqueen can be if she gets Mega Punch (and isn't bad without it). And they both ream the Bug Catchers in Viridian Forest, so being hard to train early on pretty much means Brock + Route 3.

    I don't think there's a better Pokémon than NidoranM with its Horn Attack on Route 3. It's currently the strongest move in the game, he can Leer to boost its power, and he has Poison immunity.

    For this reason (and because Horn Attack continues to be really good up through where you learn Thrash) I've always considered NidoranM a half-tier higher than NidoranF, though both top tier.

    I agree Body Slam is better than Thrash. IMO the confusion is worse than the locking. They're pretty close though, as is everything about Nidoking and Nidoqueen after level 23.
  6. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Since there seems to be a consensus about this, I had a go at redoing Ponyta in Low tier.

    Ponyta (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Ponyta - Low Tier
    -Availability: In RB, it can only be found in the Pokémon Mansion on Cinnabar Island, which is quite late. It does come at as high as level 36 though, which isn’t too bad if you head to Cinnabar as soon as possible. It comes earlier in Yellow (Cycling Road) and arrives at up to level 32, which at least means that it doesn’t need to grind much. Ponyta users would be wise to save Erika's gym for after Ponyta is obtained because it provides easy experience for it.
    -Stats: In terms of raw stats, Ponyta is strong for an unevolved Pokémon thanks to its 90 Speed and 85 Attack. Its Special is a tad low though considering the low power of its STABs before Fire Blast, and it is somewhat frail. It doesn’t evolve until level 40 but is boosted to 100 Attack and 105 Speed when it does. Its high Speed is key because it allows it to abuse Stomp and Fire Spin as effectively as possible, and that's really the best thing it can do a lot of the time. It also has an improved 80 Special and can take hits better.
    -Movepool: This is Ponyta’s biggest flaw. Ponyta’s movepool is very limited, and is among the worst of the fire types (and that actually says a lot). It cannot learn Flamethrower so it is stuck with Ember and Fire Spin as STAB by level up. Fire Spin can trap things and Ponyta can technically beat anything using this strategy, but it is slow and unreliable. Fire Blast arrives as a late game TM and packs great power, but it has poor PP and shaky accuracy which makes it difficult to spam. Stomp has a helpful flinch rate and works well with its speed but is somewhat lacking in power given its lack of STAB. Ponyta really wants access to Body Slam which is its most reliable physical attack, but it is a valuable TM and without it Ponyta is stuck with Stomp, Take Down and Double-Edge.
    -Power: Its movepool hurts it in this department, to the extent that it undermines its strong stats. Before Fire Blast it is mostly relying on unSTABed moves and Fire Spin trapping to deal damage but that just doesn’t cut it a lot of the time. When it fails to KO, it takes a hit and this damage can add up quickly. You may be forced to backtrack to the Pokémon centre often.
    -Type: Fire is considered one of the lesser types in RBY. Ponyta’s fire moves are weak until it gets Fire Blast, which has low PP and mediocre coverage by the time it arrives. Fire has some bad weaknesses to Water, Ground and Rock, and Fire’s resistances are less helpful later on.
    -Match-ups: Erika – It is unlikely that you’ll be waiting this long to let Ponyta take on Erika (mainly in RB; Yellow maybe), but if you wait (and give Ponyta Fire Blast), it can do well. Without Fire Blast, it will be using its weaker Fire moves, which her Pokémon survive (this leaves you open to status). You should still win one-on-one though, and if you prefer you can try to rely on Stomp flinches and Fire Spin trapping too.
    Koga – Only Yellow Ponyta has the opportunity to fight Koga. It should be able to take on the weak Venonat, but it may find itself worn down by his level 50 Venomoth.
    Sabrina – Rapidash can potentially hold its own here because it’s fast and can hit hard with its physical moves. Stomp isn’t really powerful but the flinches are helpful if luck is on your side. Body Slam is preferred for the extra kick. At the very least it should be able to beat everything except Alakazam, and with a bit of good fortune even Alakazam can be taken down (this is easier to do in RB).
    Blaine – This is a mirror match! The fact that you are fast helps you a lot and if you can get some flinches then you can potentially sweep. This is easier in RB because of his weak Growlithe and Ponyta.
    Giovanni – Rhyhorn and Rhydon wall you, although Fire Blast will take a chunk out of them. Despite this, RB Giovanni isn’t that threatening because of the terrible movepools his Pokémon carry (only Dugtrio has a supereffective move and it is easy to avoid). In Yellow, everything bar Persian has Earthquake so be careful.
    Lorelei – Aside from Jynx, you are better off staying away from this battle.
    Bruno – Onix walls you, although it will take a lot from Fire Blast. Fire Blast roasts his fighting types and their deficient specials.
    Agatha – Her ghosts are immune to your physical moves and can take a Fire Blast, although it should be said that most of her Pokémon have poor movesets. Use pokeflute to avoid Dream Eater.
    Lance – Not that great. Gyarados has Hydro Pump and Aerodactyl walls you. His dragons resist Fire Blast although you can at least try your normal moves. They are less threatening in RB than in Yellow (also, one of the Dragonair has BubbleBeam in Yellow).
    Blue – Rapidash isn’t anything special here but Fire/Normal coverage has a few targets. You should probably leave Rhydon, Gyarados, Blastoise, Sandslash, Vaporeon and maybe Cloyster for something else. You destroy Venusaur and Exeggutor, and it can go head-to-head against everything else.
    -Additional Comments: Ponyta’s movepool is just too crappy, to the extent that it ends up relying on Fire Spin trapping and Stomp flinches to kill things without taking damage. This isn’t something that should be relied on if you are trying to get through the game efficiently. If it could learn Earthquake or Dig it might have been more useful, but in the end it is a Pokémon with good stats that are wasted on a barren movepool.


    Feedback from anyone who has used Ponyta much is welcome.
  7. Naix

    Naix

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    @atsync
    Looks good! As someone who playtested Ponyta but didn't write an entry for it, I don't see anything to be improved upon (for the record, the playtest I'm referring to is the one where I tested Vaporeon and Yellow Bulbasaur). Also, didn't you say earlier in the thread you were testing Venonat? It already has an entry in Low (which I don't think anybody would dispute), but after looking at it I can say it definitely has room for improvement, so might it be possible for you to make a revision for Venonat as well?

    Also on the matter of playtesting, I accidentally deleted the save file on my Nidoran-F playtest, but thankfully I already got the information I was looking for. From my experience in addition to feedback from you guys, I will agree that I was wrong and Nidoran-F is indeed worthy of Top. While she doesn't have Horn Attack like her male counterpart, she can still hold her own until she evolves and gains access to Mega Punch, from which point it acts almost exactly like Nidoran-M would. I'll start the playtest over again, but this time with the usual intent of writing/revamping entries. Red Krabby is obviously on this list, and I'm most likely also going to include Ekans (overall pretty short in comparison to other entries) and Abra (Stats and Movepool are pretty bare).
  8. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Venonat (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Venonat - Low Tier
    -Availability: Venonat is unobtainable until you get past Snorlax in RB, on routes 12-15 and in the Safari Zone. It is underleveled when you get it and grinding it is painful. Yellow improved Venonat by adding it to routes 24-25, although it is still a nuisance to grind and it may get in the way of grinding something more useful (like, say, that Bellsprout you are grinding to beat Misty more easily).
    -Stats: Before it evolves, Venonat is a bit pathetic. It does have a good HP stat for an unevolved Pokémon (60) but its attacking stats limit its damage output. When it evolves at level 31, it gains 90 Special and Speed which is pretty solid in RBY. It is physically frail however (70 HP and 60 Defence).
    -Movepool: Most of Venomoth’s best moves come late. Sleep Powder and Psychic don’t arrive until levels 43 and 50 respectively, although if you want you can use the Psychic TM to get it early. In fact, until it gets Psybeam at level 38, its moves (in RB) are Mega Drain, Leech Life and those normal TMs that it probably shouldn’t be using. Yellow at least gave it Confusion at level 19, although it isn’t that strong, especially as a Venonat.
    -Power: Venonat is weak before evolution. Its attacking stats are too low and with just Tackle, Leech Life and maybe Psychic (assuming you used the TM on it) as attacks there isn’t much Venonat can do. It improves after evolution but unless you teach it Psychic straight away it still has a while to go before its power becomes noteworthy.
    -Type: Bug/Poison allows Venomoth to perform well against particular types. The Grass resistance is pretty useful in RBY. The Flying and Psychic weaknesses are probably the most concerning weaknesses it carries (it also has Fire, Rock and Bug weaknesses).
    -Match-ups: Misty (Yellow only): Honestly, what are you going to do here? The best you can do is use Disable and hope it selects BubbleBeam, but if that doesn’t work your out of luck.
    Lt. Surge: Raichu will tear you apart. It’s unlikely that you would have Venonat for Lt. Surge in RB but if you do then maybe you can beat Pikachu and Voltorb (you have a level advantage at this point so at least that's something).
    Erika – You should have Leech Life by now which works well against Grass/Poison types, although it won’t OHKO. You’ll probably receive a status along the way. Weepinbell in Yellow can be annoying if you get nailed with paralysis and Wrap.
    Koga – Hopefully you have at least Psybeam by now (or you used the Psychic TM). Either of those are great for this battle and the immunity to poison status is neat too. This is a mirror match in Yellow, but a level 35-40 Venomoth is not going to beat a level 50 Venomoth without luck.
    Sabrina – Stay away! Her Pokémon have powerful super-effective STABs and resist your strongest attacks. Leech Life is super-effective but it’s not going to help. You should beat her Venomoth at least.
    Blaine – Fire weakness is unfortunate. Growlithe and Ponyta should be beatable. Rapidash can potentially trap you with Fire Spin although you should be faster than it in RB (Yellow Rapidash may or may not be faster depending on how close you are to level 50).
    Giovanni – This shouldn’t be too hard. Your Psychic moves are super-effective against the Nidos and Mega Drain is an option for the Ground types. Most of his Pokémon can’t do much to you in RB. In Yellow you’ll need to be careful around Rock Slide, Earthquake and Slash hitting your low Defense.
    Lorelei – Venomoth does nothing special here. Mega Drain is super-effective against 80% of her team (note that Psychic does more damage to 3 of the 4 grass weak Pokémon) but they can hit back hard. You can maybe take on one or two Pokémon before you die. Stay away from Slowbro in Yellow as it has Psychic.
    Bruno – Psybeam/Psychic the Fighting types and Mega Drain Onix. You win.
    Agatha – Psychic hits her whole team. You just have to watch for Psychic (from her second Gengar) and status moves.
    Lance – Being physically frail doesn’t help you much for this battle. Venomoth honestly has no business participating in this battle. You could maybe take one or two things down but you might as well leave it to something else.
    Blue – Mega Drain is nice for Rhydon and Leech Life is great for Exeggutor and Venusaur. Like basically every Pokémon in this game, Venomoth can contribute in this battle. Really, just stay away from obvious bad match-ups (Alakazam, Charizard, etc.) and you’ll be fine.
    -Additional Comments: It takes far too long to become even remotely good. It literally does almost nothing before Psychic in Yellow, and if you aren’t able to spend the TM on it then it is mediocre for a large portion of the game. It is even worse in RB as it comes much later and doesn’t even get Confusion, so it only has access to terrible moves before Psybeam and Psychic.


    Oddish (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Oddish - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Oddish is exclusive to Red and Yellow. It is first found north of Cerulean City at levels 12-14. It is slightly underleveled, but thankfully there are a few Hikers on the way to Bill’s house that provide easy experience for Oddish so it isn’t too difficult for it to catch up.
    -Stats: Oddish and family have nice stats overall, with Special being its strongest stat. It peaks at 100 as Vileplume, and Oddish starts with 75 Special which is very good for an unevolved Pokémon. This is supported by Vileplume’s 75 HP and 85 Defence, and even its Attack is solid (80). However, Oddish is horribly slow. Before evolving into Vileplume it’ll find itself going last quite often. Vileplume’s 50 Speed is still below average but it’s just enough to allow it to go first in many battles when accounting for stat experience and level differences. Faster species will still outspeed it however.
    -Movepool: This is what lets Oddish down significantly. Compared to its fellow early-game Grass types, it really has little to go on. It starts with the weak Absorb, although the HP recovery is helpful against Grass-weak opponents. For a while, its whole moveset will consist of Absorb, Cut and Acid which prevents it from powering through many opponents. It does get the status powders early on however, which at least lets it beat things more safely. Vileplume’s strongest STAB is Petal Dance, but with a modest 70 Base Power it isn’t particularly spectacular. Furthermore, it has unfavourable side effects and it can only learn it as Oddish or Gloom, so you can’t evolve Gloom right away unless you are willing to give up Petal Dance (not recommended). From TMs, it gets Mega Drain which is a good replacement for Absorb. It also gets Swords Dance and Body Slam (Body Slam can only be learnt by Vileplume, not Oddish or Gloom).
    -Power: The issue isn’t so much that it can’t beat things. The problem is that it can’t beat things quickly. It is using moves with low base power and mainly gets around opponents by slowly whittling away their health rather than blasting through them. This isn’t ideal in an efficient playthrough. Still, the fact is that Oddish does beat things in the end.
    -Type: Grass is a very good type early on, and this is probably the main reason why you would use Oddish. The Water, Grass and Electric resistances are very useful, and super-effective hits on Water, Rock and Ground are great. Grass/Poison has a few weaknesses, including Psychic, Bug, Flying, Fire and Ice, so Oddish will need some support.
    -Match-ups: Misty: Oddish wins. Absorb actually does pathetic damage to Starmie thanks to its high Special but Oddish beats it in the end.
    Lt. Surge: Gloom’s Electric resistance and nice bulk allow it to do great here too. His Pokémon can’t really do that much to you, although it may need help in Yellow if Raichu selects Mega Kick and Mega Punch repeatedly.
    Erika – There are better choices for this battle. Gloom’s Acid is super-effective against Tangela at least, but Gloom is an inefficient choice for this battle and there is no reason to use it here over something else.
    Koga – You can’t do much to his Poison types in RB and Gloom/Vileplume will be worn down, although you at least carry an immunity to poison status. You’re even worse in Yellow since you’ll be hit with Psychic attacks.
    Sabrina – This is even worse than Koga, and using Vileplume here is dumb.
    Blaine – You’re weak to Fire and his Pokémon resist Grass. Use something else.
    Giovanni – Vileplume gets to have a bit of a comeback here after bad match-ups in the last few gyms. It destroys Dugtrio, Rhyhorn and Rhydon, and it can beat Nidoqueen and Nidoking one-on-one. Persian’s Slash might sting, but overall you can do well.
    Lorelei – The Ice weakness limits you, and Slowbro has Psychic in Yellow. It can beat Slowbro in RB easily but Vileplume isn’t a good choice for this battle.
    Bruno – You beat Onix, and the fighting types have poor Specials (and you even resist Fighting moves). Vileplume does very well against Bruno.
    Agatha – Agatha isn’t really threatening overall but there are so many better choices for Agatha than Vileplume. Vileplume’s typing and movepool is just all wrong for this battle!
    Lance – His dragon’s resist Grass. In Yellow, the threat of receiving an Ice attack is present too. Aerodactyl is beatable in RB unless you get haxed, but it has Fly in Yellow. Gyarados’s Hyper Beam will leave a mark but you resist Hydro Pump at least. If it acts dumb then you can beat it.
    Blue – Here’s a list of Pokémon you can beat easily: Rhydon, Exeggutor, Sandslash and Magneton. There are other match-ups that you can win with a bit of luck/patience, including the water types (they have Ice moves), Jolteon (it has 4x effective Pin Missile), Gyarados (basically the same as Lance’s) and Venusaur (you wall it although you don’t really do a lot back).
    -Additional Comments: Oddish makes it into Mid because its typing gives it great match-ups early on. Grass is a great offensive type before you reach Lavender Town and Oddish will put in a lot of work along the way. Being able to beat the first 2 gym leaders you encounter after you catch it is sweet too. However, it is important to note that Bellsprout and Bulbasaur completely outclass Oddish thanks to better stat distributions and movepools. Oddish is only recommended if you are playing Red and didn’t pick Bulbasaur. In Yellow, you should just use one of the other Grass types as they do the same job much better. Still, if you absolutely insist on picking Oddish over Bellsprout and Bulbasaur then it is still a useful choice. Just make sure to give it plenty of support because it’s going to need it.


    Yes, I did say that I wasn't going to do Oddish because the current analysis is accurate, but it's short and it kind of sticks out among the others so I thought since I used it recently I might as well.
  9. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Looking at the Ponyta anaylsis, in Yellow version I used a Level 32 Ponyta caught fresh from Cycling Road and swept Erika's entire gym with Ember. So it doesnt need Fire Blast to do well in that battle.
  10. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Awesome oddish review-- it's like, flawless man.
  11. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

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    If you need someone to test something I can test on all three games, R/B will take a bit longer then Yellow though.
  12. Naix

    Naix

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    thesynchrohero, Red/Blue Machop's entry is pretty bare, so if you test anything I'd recommend that. Lapras's entry could also use some expansion, but that's just my opinion.

    Speaking of tests, I just finished testing Red Krabby, Abra (without trade evolution), and others. Here are entries for those 2:

    Krabby (Red) (open)
    -Krabby (Red) - Low Tier
    -Availability: Unlike in Blue or Yellow, Red Krabby can't be caught in Seafoam Islands, meaning the best opportunity to catch Krabby is by surving up a level 23 Kingler at Route 23 with the Super Rod. You will need to have beaten Erika to access Route 23's fishing spots.
    -Stats: As mentioned in its Blue/Yellow entry, Kingler has impeccable Attack and very adequate Defense, but its Special leaves a lot to be desired.
    -Movepool: Kingler will know Bubble, Leer, and Vicegrip when caught assuming you caught it as a level 23 Kingler. It'll then proceed to learn Guillotine 2 levels later. Unfortunately, Kingler won't be able to know Crabhammer until level 42, which means it'll be stuck without usable STAB for 19 levels. The only notable TM moves Kingler can learn are Ice Beam and Blizzard, but even those moves might not be worth it in the long run due to Kingler's disappointing base 50 Special. Still, Blizzard is a noteworthy option as it allows Kingler to take down some of Lance's Dragon-types. Another option for Kingler is Body Slam: it's the most powerful Normal-type attack Kingler can learn with no drawbacks, just keep its competition in mind.
    -Power: Since it'll join underleveled with Vicegrip as its best attack, it should come as no surprise that Kingler won't exactly be excelling. Body Slam definitely helps it here. Even though it doesn't give it any OHKOes against the opposition, it's still its best attack for a good while. Of course, once it reaches level 42, it'll know Crabhammer and then play exactly like it would in Blue or Yellow. However, this isn't until Seafoam Islands, meaning Kingler will be doing mediocre for at least 2 gyms, in other words a fourth of the game.
    -Type: Kingler really wishes it was Normal-type instead of Water-type, as a specially oriented typing combined with a pathetic Special means a wasted type, at least until Crabhammer comes along.
    -Match-ups:
    --Koga: Kingler won't be doing much this fight, as all of its good attacks at this point in the game are physical, and all of Koga's Pokemon have the bulk to withstand more than a few physical attacks.
    --Sabrina: Sabrina's Pokemon are all faster than Kingler and their attacks target its pitiful special.
    --Blaine: By this time, Kingler should know Crabhammer, making this fight a walk in the park.
    --Giovanni: See Blaine.
    --Lorelei: Aside from crushing Jynx with Strength, don't expect Kingler to do much in this fight.
    --Bruno: All of Bruno's Pokemon are either weak to Crabhammer or have Special stats that make Kingler's seem adequate.
    --Agatha: Her Ghosts can take whatever Kingler lobs at it, but can't do much back to it outside of status.
    --Lance: This is probably the only time in the game where Kingler would use Blizzard, as 4 of his Pokemon are weak to it, and one of them is weak to Crabhammer, meaning you don't have to waste Blizzard's PP on it. Keep in mind, however, that it'll usually take 2 Blizzards to down one of Lance's Dragons
    --Rival: To sum it up quickly, Kingler can comfortably beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine, and Charizard. It loses to everything else.
    -Additional Comments: The problem with Krabby in Red is that it misses out on what makes it good in Blue and Yellow: access to Crabhammer shortly after catching it, and the lack of need to catch it up with the rest of the party (though the latter applies solely to Blue). Without those characteristics, Krabby becomes an unimpressive Pokemon, and one that is not recommended for playthroughs. Also remember that you have to go noticeably out of your way to obtain Krabby at its best in Red.

    Abra rewrite (open)
    -Abra - Top Tier
    -Availability: This is Abra's only flaw. It can be caught at Routes 24 and 25 in Red and Blue, with its level being either 8, 10, or 12. In Yellow, you'll have to wait until Route 5. Abra are notoriously difficult to catch, as they have the lowest catch rate of anything in the Routes where they're found, and they Teleport away from battle on the first turn. Because of this, having a Pokemon that knows a sleep-inducing move, such as Butterfree or Clefable, helps a ton here. Abra first evolve by reaching level 16, and then by trade.
    -Stats: Alakazam has one of the highest Special stats in the game, second only to Mewtwo, who isn't obtainable until the end of the game. It's also fast enough to outpace anything that isn't called Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Electrode, or Dugtrio. Paper-thin defenses might seem bad, but you'll hardly notice it because you'll be too busy obliterating everything in sight. While Kadabra's stats aren't quite as impressive as Alakazam's, they're still good enough to get the job done, and you should only see the difference during major battles.
    -Movepool: When caught, Teleport will be Abra's only move, and it is useless in trainer battles. It does, however, have some utility outside of battle. Notable example would be right after meeting Bill and going to the Power Plant to catch Zapdos. In Route 25, you can get TM19, Seismic Toss. Seismic Toss, while a set damage move, is Abra's only means of doing damage until it evolves, and it's Alakazam's best means of attacking fellow Psychic-types. Kadabra's learns Confusion at level 16, Psybeam at level 27, and Psychic at level 38. Each of these are great attacks at the time they're learned, and Confusion and Psybeam can usually take care of anything weak to Psychic-type attacks. Also, Kadabra and Alakazam have access to Recover, but it won't usually be needed unless it's facing down another Psychic-type.
    -Power: As mentioned above, Abra's only move when it's first caught is Teleport, meaning that unless you teach it Seismic Toss, it won't be doing much of anything until it evolves. Once it evolves and learns actual damaging Psychic-type attacks, it positively wrecks its adversaries, with the only exeptions being fellow Psychic-types. The above statement applies to Kadabra just as much as it does to Alakazam.
    -Type: Psychic is without a doubt the best type in RBY. It hits the abundant Poison-types super effectively and is only resisted by other Psychic-types. Its only weakness is to Bug-type attacks, most of which are wielded either by Pokemon who are either weak to Psychic-type attacks or weak overall, with the only exception being Jolteon.
    -Match-ups:
    --Misty: With Seismic Toss, Alakazam can go toe-to-toe with her Starmie and crush Staryu. It isn't a guaranteed victory, but Alakazam definitely helps.
    --Lt. Surge: Thanks to Alakazam's ludicrous Special, it doesn't have to worry about Raichu's Thunderbolt as much as others neutral to it would be. It does, however, have to worry about Mega Punch and Mega Kick from Raichu in Yellow.
    --Erika: The only Pokemon on her team that isn't weak to Psybeam is pathetic. In fact, Alakazam could solo the entire gym if you felt like it.
    --Koga: Considering we're talking about a Psychic-type with base 135 Special, this outcome couldn't be more obvious.
    --Sabrina: Alakazam can defeat all of Sabrina's Pokemon in Red and Blue with the exception of her Alakazam provided it knows Seismic Toss. Her Alakazam (in all games) in addition to her Kadabra in Yellow can Recover more HP than Seismic Toss inflicts, causing a stalemate between the two.
    --Blaine: Take Down and Stomp definitely leave marks, so how well Alakazam does against Blaine depends on how often his Pokemon use those 2 moves.
    --Giovanni: The only Pokemon on Giovanni's team who might be able to stop Alakazam would be Persian and Dugtrio. Everything else gets swept under the rug.
    --Lorelei: Lapras is the only Pokemon on her team capable of beating Alakazam, as Dewgong and Cloyster fall to a Psychic followed by a Psybeam and Slowbro and Jynx get worn down by repeated Seismic Tosses.
    --Bruno: He gets swept. You can use Psybeam on his Fighting-types if you want, as they can't even take that.
    --Agatha: Similar to Bruno, but you'll need Psychic to take down her Ghost-types, as they actually have good Special.
    --Lance: All of his Pokemon know Hyper Beam, which is capable of disintegrating Alakazam. However, all of his Pokemon (with the exception of Aerodactyl) are slower than Alakazam, allowing the PSI Pokemon to get a hit in before going down.
    --Rival: As with Sabrina, Alakazam vs. Alakazam would result in a stalemate. The other Pokemon Alakazam would have trouble with would be Gyarados, Arcanine, Charizard, and Jolteon.
    --Additional Comments: While it is difficult to catch and useless for 4-8 levels, its ability to steamroll the rest of the game after evolving with few exceptions establishes it as one of the best Pokemon in the game. Even if you can't trade to evolve it completely, the difference in performance between Kadabra and Alakazam is minor, and is only noticeable during major battles.

    Because of Red Krabby getting an entry, I decided to change some things in Blue/Yellow Krabby's entry. I left in the things I didn't change for convenience's sake
    Said improvisions (open)
    -Krabby (Blue/Yellow) – High Tier
    -Availability: While Krabby can be caught in its base form by fishing with the Super Rod in various areas including (but not limited to) Fuschia City, Vermilion City, and Routes 11, 12, 18, it'll only be level 15, meaning it would have quite a long way to catch up the rest of the party. In Yellow, Krabby can be found in the bottom 2 floors of Seafoam Islands by means of the Super Rod at level 35 as a Kingler. However, Kingler can be found at the B3 floor of Seafoam Islands level 39, which should be very similar in level to the rest of your team, provided you went to get it before clearing out Silph Co. While they only have a 4% chance of appearing, Repels remedy this, provided the Pokemon leading your party isn't below level 34 or above level 39 at the time. Krabby can evolve at level 28, in other words right after being caught.
    -Stats: Kingler has a massive base 130 Attack, which is tied with Rhydon and Flareon and second only to Dragonite, which is almost impossible to get in-game without a large amount of grinding. Its Defense isn't too far behind, and its Speed is enough to outpace an almost all of the game's remaining Pokemon (at least those who aren't higher leveled than it). However, Kingler's weakest stat is Special, at a dismal base 50. Of course, If you settled for Krabby to get earlier access to Crabhammer, you don't have to worry too much, as it still has solid Attack and Defense.
    -Movepool: Krabby and Kingler have exclusive access to the move Crabhammer, which acts like a slightly more powerful, 85% accurate, Water-type Slash, and as such is the best Water-type move in the game. As such, it makes up for Kingler's pathetic Special, and is mandatory on it. Kingler, like most other Water-types, has access to Ice Beam and Blizzard, but its awful Special means its usability outside of Lance is just as bad. Also, Kingler can learn Guillotine, which is an OHKO move and as such can make it quite useful for major battles in combination with X Accuracy and X Speed when Crabhammer and Strength can't cut it. Kingler learns Guillotine at level 25 and Crabhammer at level 42. Also, catching Krabby rather than Kingler in Yellow for an earlier Crabhammer is a definite option, as Krabby learns it at level 35. If you teach Kingler Surf and Strength, it can also act as a useful HM slave alongside its role of killing things with Crabhammer.
    -Power: Against the majority of trainers, Kingler does well, with Crabhammer to annihilate anything weak to it and Strength to deal with everything else. Crabhammer and Water-typing combined with a titanic Base 130 Attack make Kingler a mixed attacker while simultaneously having perfect type coverage in just 2 moves, allowing it to hold its own against the majority of the game's remaining trainers.
    -Type: While Kingler is a Water-type with no secondary typings, it isn't too bad, because Kingler's weaknesses are both very uncommon, meaning Kingler won't have much to worry about in the majority of battles as far as type match-ups are concerned.
    -Match-ups: The X item + Guillotine combination will not be taken into account for these battles, as Kingler defeats everybody (with the exceptions of Agatha and Sabrina) with it.
    --Sabrina: Although Strength hits her Pokemon like a truck, the majority of her Pokemon are faster than Kingler and hurt it hard due to its dismal Special.
    --Blaine: Considering the fact that his Pokemon are weak to Crabhammer and the fact that Kingler can confidently take physical hits not boosted by STAB, the outcome of this should be easy to see.
    --Giovanni: Giovanni is steamrolled in Red and Blue, but he is definitely more threatening to Kingler in Yellow, as both his Nidos know Thunder, meaning if they survive a Crabhammer, there's a 70% chance of it getting fried.
    --Lorelei: Unfortunately for Kingler, Lorelei happens to have Cloyster, Slowbro, and Lapras: the 3 Water-types that give Kingler the most trouble, in her arsenal.
    --Bruno: Kingler can take a good amount of his Pokemon's attacks and whack them hard with Crabhammer, but don't expect Kingler to take hits from his entire team, as it only 2HKOes the Fighting-types, meaning they're guaranteed to get at least one hit in, and Hitmonlee can attack a second time before going down, thanks to its superior Speed.
    --Agatha: Her Ghost-types can comfortably take everything Kingler can throw at it, although multiple Crabhammers will wear them down over time. It doesn't help that her first Gengar in Yellow knows Mega Drain.
    --Lance: While Kingler can withstand more than one Hyper Beam, the only Pokemon it can do large amounts of damage against without the need for TMs is Aerodactyl. If Blizzard is added to the mix, Kingler can take out some of his Dragon-types, but they're merely 2HKOes against them, which when combined with Blizzards pathetic 5 PP means it usually won't be able to defeat his 2 Dragonair and his Dragonite in the same battle. In Yellow, Lance's first Dragonair and Dragonite know Thunderbolt and Thunder, respectively, neutralizing any attempts at chilling them to the bone.
    --Rival: Needless to say, Alakazam, Magneton, and Jolteon beat Kingler with little trouble. Venusaur also does this, but it would require you to start the game with Squirtle, which means that scenario is very unlikely to happen. Gyarados, Cloyster, and Vaporeon can cause trouble, thanks to their usable, stellar, and solid (respectively) physical bulk. Everything else is handily beaten.
    -Additional Comments: Kingler's greatest asset is its access to Crabhammer. Because of this, Repels aren't completely necessary, as Krabby should be able to hold its own until it learns Crabhammer at level 35. Of course, the second-highest Attack stat in the game as well as possessing perfect type coverage and the ability to hit solidly on both ends of the spectrum at the same time help its cause as well.


    Of course, if there's something you'd like to point out, then go right ahead.

    EDIT: Body Slam has been mentioned, thank you guys for pointing it out!
  13. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    I know I have a couple runs already queued and incomplete, but I'd like to run Lapras to see if it really belongs in Low. I suspect that Water and Ice STAB is powerful enough to overcome its low level.

    Re: the Krabby rewrites, I think its access to Body Slam should be mentioned. Red Kingler plays similarly to Flareon in that both are liabilities if they don't get Body Slam (or Double-Edge). Flareon has a level/availability advantage whereas Kingler has access to more mid-game toys (Bubblebeam, Ice Beam, Swords Dance, Surf--yeah, they're weak, but they help a little) and a much better end-game.

    I think every Water-type is decent. Even if they are slow in the mid-game, the end-game feeds them so many convenient enemies that even a weak or low-level Water can catch up in time to do damage against Lance and Rival.
  14. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    With Lapras, is it possible to obtain it as soon as you reach Celadon by buying Fresh Water and entering Saffron early, and then beating Blue in the Silph Co. building? Of course, this would mean having to beat his level 35-40 team with your underleveled team, although it probably isn't that hard. If you can do it this way, then Lapras doesn't have as far to go to catch up.

    @ Naix: Red Krabby needs a mention of Body Slam, which is basically the only good attack available to it at that point that it can use well, assuming you haven't used it yet.

    Nitpick, but for the Blue battle, Kingler should be able to beat Charizard too.

    @ Hemp Man: The Erika entry applies only for Erika, which Yellow Ponyta did not sweep because Weepinbell paralyzed me with Stun Spore and then Wrap-trapped me to death. I think what I wrote for that match-up is perfectly accurate. However, I'll add somewhere that Erika's gym is a great source of experience for Ponyta since that's pretty important.
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Hmmm, I do remember sweeping Erika's entire gym with Ponyta, but maybe I just got lucky then? Well I reread your Ponyta write up, and I think its pretty accurate to my experiences of using him.
  16. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Ponyta comes so late in RB that it should sweep Erika through sheer level advantage. It may be susceptible to luck from Poison/Parawrap though. The rewrite already covers these points though.

    I mean, we mention some fights only for completion's sake. Whether Ponyta can beat Erika has little bearing on its overall ranking. Same with Bruno.
  17. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

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    Kay, I'll try both Pokemon.
  18. Naix

    Naix

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    Here's an entry on one of the other Pokemon I used. As usual, feel free to question/make note of anything that I missed or seems off.
    Ekans rewrite (open)
    -Ekans (Red only) - Low Tier
    -Availability: Ekans can be found right after Mt. Moon at levels 6 through 12. Obviously, this means it'll have some catching up to do, which can be troublesome given what moves it knows when it's caught. Ekans evolve at level 22.
    -Stats: Ekans, and later Arbok, have rather average Attack and Speed, and their defensive stats are lackluster.
    -Movepool: Ekans's TM movepool is wider than what would be assumed, as it gets access to moves such as Dig, Rock Slide, Mega Drain, and even Earthquake! Its level up movepool, however, leaves much to be desired; its best level up move is Bite at level 17. Until Bite, its only attacking options are Poison Sting and Wrap, neither of which are good for efficient runs. Ekans and Arbok get exclusive access to Glare, which can potentially assist in major fights, but is useless otherwise. Another TM move Arbok can learn is Body Slam, but because it already has a Normal-type attack with passable base power in Bite at the time, odds are that Arbok won't be learning it.
    -Power: Before it gets Bite, Ekans will be doing very poorly. After it learns Bite and evolves, Arbok can hold its own up until Cycling Road, but keep in mind there's not exactly any point in the game where Arbok stands out. It's also fairly useless in Pokemon Tower unless it's taught Dig or Rock Slide.
    -Type: Mono-Poison typing isn't good in any Pokemon game, but Arbok definitely isn't going to be using any STAB in the first place once it gets access to Bite as Poison Sting's base power is awful and Acid is just as powerful as Bite after factoring STAB and isn't learned until level 47, by which time you should be taking on the Pokemon League.
    -Match-ups:
    -Misty: The best Ekans can hope to do is to defeat her Staryu, and even that's not guaranteed.
    -Lt. Surge: Arbok can paralyze his Raichu and defeat his Voltorb and Pikachu, but it never sweeps him outright unless it's taught Dig.
    -Erika: Arbok doesn't have to worry about Erika using Grass-type attacks, giving it a chance against her. The best Erika will do against Arbok is having her Victreebel constantly Wrap it.
    -Koga: Because of Koga's Pokemon having very respectable Defense as well as Arbok only possessing average Attack, it's not going to be doing much unless it knows Dig.
    -Sabrina: Even if it wasn't Poison-type, Arbok would lose here.
    -Blaine: Arbok needs Dig or Rock Slide to beat him, but keep in mind it isn't guaranteed even if it knows those moves.
    -Giovanni: Arbok can deal damage to all of his Pokemon (saveforDugtrio) with Dig, but it'll still get worn down by his Pokemon's repeated assaults.
    -Lorelei: Arbok can defeat Jynx and Screech her Dewgong until Rock Slide 2HKOes it, but the rest of Lorelei's Pokemon have the bulk to take whatever Arbok throws at it and retaliate accordingly.
    -Bruno: His Onix's Earthquakes deal unsettling amounts of damage, but Arbok can use Mega Drain against them to seriously harm them back and simultaneously heal its HP back. On the other hand, while Arbok resists Fighting-type attacks, Normal-type attacks from Bruno's Fighting-types will definitely hurt.
    -Agatha: As per usual, Arbok won't be doing much without Dig or Earthquake, but that doesn't protect it from the fact that Agatha's Ghosts are faster than it and can confuse it, and keep in mind that Dig is a two-turn attack. Because of this, it is recommended that Arbok should be taught Earthquake if you want it to do well here.
    -Lance: The best Arbok can do here is to defeat his Aerodactyl, but even that's dependent on Aerodactyl constantly using Supersonic and failing, not to mention Arbok would need to know Rock Slide.
    -Rival: Without TMs, the only things Arbok can beat are Pidgeot, Exeggutor, and occasionally Venusaur. With Dig and Rock Slide, it gains the ability to defeat Rhydon, Arcanine, and Charizard (the latter two aren't guaranteed, though) in addition to the above.
    -Additional Comments: As you can see, Ekans is greatly dependent on Dig and occasionally Rock Slide to do well against the majority of the game's bosses as well as the entire game from Rock Tunnel onward. This, combined with its average stats across the board and lack of a good STAB, make it very reliant on TMs to do well.

    The other Pokemon I used in my latest run (Caterpie, Cubone) I felt had adequate entries, but I will revamp them if asked to do so.

    On a different note, I asked Mekkah a while ago about revamping only certain parts of a Pokemon's entry while leaving the rest of it alone, and he said it was okay to do it so long as there aren't any contradictions with the rest of the entries and it isn't obvious that more than one person wrote it (using noticeably more complicated words, for example). Because of getting the OK, I decided to edit the Additional Comments of a few Pokemon. Here they are:

    Jigglypuff's AC change (open)
    -Additional Comments: Jigglypuff is a high-maintenance Pokemon: it requires large amounts of support from the moment you catch it in the form of Mega Punch and a Moon Stone, and soon afterward it'll ask for more so it doesn't fall behind due to its subpar stats. This means that if you want to use Jigglypuff, you must be willing to give it a disproportionate amount of support in order for it to be on par with its teammates.

    Mankey's AC change (open)
    -Additional Comments: As far as Fighting-types go, Mankey is adequate. It's dependent on Dig and doesn't last long when it isn't hitting its targets super effectively, but if given Dig and Rock Slide it can hold its own for a good portion of the game. It also has one of the best match-ups against Brock in Yellow.

    EDIT: While I didn't test that specifically, I can see how Mega Drain Arbok can beat Bruno's Onix. I must've forgotten due to Arbok's forgettable Special and Mega Drain's poor base power. It has now been added. Thank you!
  19. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Vs Bruno's Onix: Can't Arbok beat them with Mega Drain?
  20. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Ekans is a slightly worse Growlithe so the two articles should be more alike. (Maybe that means Growlithe needs to be rewritten, though)

    Jigglypuff needs Mega Punch early on but in mid-game it can use the low-demand Tri Attack instead of Body Slam. Double-Edge/Mega Punch aren't bad either.

    Jigglypuff's Normal STAB and fast exp. track redeem its bad stats—not many Pokémon have a stronger Normal-type move (Flareon and Kingler, for instance, are weaker). The low speed is annoying though.
  21. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Running Lapras and Wigglytuff, among others. Just reached Sabrina (doing her before Koga). I'm continuing to use my method of giving all my Pokémon equal experience from the time I capture them, plus I'm timing it so that I reach each Gym Leader at a number of experience that corresponds to the levels Nyara gave (i.e. the Leader's lowest-leveled Pokémon) for a medium exp. rate Pokémon caught at the beginning of the game. This is IMO the fairest and most controlled way to test Pokémon.

    Anyways, mid-game impressions.

    35 Raticate: gave it Dig. It's strong and reliable. Sometimes has trouble powering through the bulkiest enemies because it isn't sturdy.
    38 Farfetch'd: gave it Body Slam, Fly. Its low speed is by far its worst problem. Body Slam/Swords Dance/Fly is enough horsepower to kill anything quickly but its speed and frailty sometimes get in the way.
    24 Lapras: gave it Surf. I grabbed it almost as early as possible. It's still in its Magikarp phase, though at least it's able to beat weaker enemies (Koffing et al) without help. Maybe it not getting the TMs it wants is making a difference.
    37 Wigglytuff: gave it Tri Attack, Bubblebeam, Double-Edge. It's like a worse Farfetch'd—even slower and not quite as strong. The speed is an issue but Wigglytuff can sometimes get out of awkward situations with Sing.
    34 Jynx: gave it Ice Beam, Psychic. It's maybe not as strong as Farfetch'd but it still hits really hard, is faster, has better offensive typing, and can Lovely Kiss any otherwise tough enemy. Top tier mid-game Pokémon.
    32 Electrode: gave it Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, Swift. So I wanted to see how mid-game Voltorb does (vs. catching one at level 40 at the Power Plant) and it's not good. Just too weak before it evolves and isn't that strong even as Electrode, though crits are certainly welcome. I occasionally tried Screech/Swift against Electric-type opponents but it's not worth it; NVE Thunderbolt is better. Hoping Electrode improves in the end-game.

    I'll do a more thorough run-down of important matchups later.
  22. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Farfetch'd hit's like a truck with Sword Dance, too bad it can't Hyper Beam, but it rather compensate with Body Slam and Fly (or you can just hits like a truck without setup by just using Slash, when it learn it), apart from Farfetch'd, you don't have more options for Sword Dance before Silph Co, and even then, on Yellow or if you started with Blastoise you don't have better options for it at all, maybe Sandlash and Kingler. Farfetch'd's Slash is still the best in-game move you can get on the game; yeah, Persian learns it, too, but at the level 51, while Farfetch'd does on the level 39.

    Wigglytuff by other hand is pretty useful thanks to it's huge TM compatibility, so, if your team is not needing certain TM, you can just give it to him, and he'll do it's job rather well, it's still a worst Farfetch'd/Raticate on the physical side, and a worst Clefable on the special side. You may want to buy it a Counter TM, it does a pretty good job with it. It's at least easier to find than Clefairy. Clefairy should still be Mid Tier, it can beat anything with the correct TM's, and you can pretty much solo the game with a Clefairy without any major trouble, Wigglytuff could do the same, but it's low speed and lowest special bulk stop it to archive it.
  23. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    OK, finished the game. Here are thoughts and matchups.

    (pre-Elite Four levels)

    47 Raticate: Same as always: a good early-game Digger with a sweet STAB level-up move in Hyper Fang. Gets weaker as the game goes on. Mid-tier.
    50 Wigglytuff: Consistent mid-game damage. A bit stronger than Raticate (but can't Dig). Can't do anything special against the Elite Four. Mind that I only gave it Tri Attack (/Double-Edge) and Bubblebeam. Mid-tier; I want to see what it's like if it gets Body Slam and Psychic.
    53 Farfetch'd: Right after it gets Slash is Farfetch'd's best moment (late mid-game/early end-game). It's so strong. Farfetch'd still moves second a bit much for my tastes but its sheer power and ability to set up merit high tier.
    45 Electrode: Its main purpose is to beat Water and Flying Pokémon in the Elite Four. And it does this job well, at the price of being an easily-stopped Pokémon in other circumstances. Electrode has no coverage and isn't strong enough to bulldoze Grass, Electric, Ground, or otherwise bulky enemies. Next run I'll pick up the level 42 Electrode in the Power Plant to see how big an end-game difference it makes. If you catch Voltorb before Rock Tunnel though, it's low-tier (but on the high end).
    51 Jynx: I guess it's a tad dependent on TMs, though it gets Ice Punch by level-up and only needs to choose one of Ice Beam and Psychic (probably Psychic) to work. Or Bubblebeam. But give it its toys and it's an amazing Pokémon, on par or better than the top tiers during the parts of the game where it's available. It's literally good against everything. Top-tier.
    40 Lapras: The level deficit really shows. Like Electrode it's just not strong and bulky/fast enemies cause it problems. Unlike Electrode it has coverage and access to lots of TMs—potentially the right cocktail could cause damage. But the payoff for this late-game Magikarp isn't enough, so it's probably low-tier (but on the high end).

    Interesting/important matchups:
    Misty: Should be noted that Raticate and (especially) (Mega Punch) Wigglytuff do pretty well against Starmie.
    Sabrina: Jynx is the only Pokémon who can solo her consistently thanks to Lovely Kiss. Farfetch'd wins with luck; its best chance is to let someone else beat Kadabra and then switch in on Mr. Mime to set up Swords Dance. Wigglytuff and Raticate can do good damage too. Electrode's damage output is too low and Lapras is still too weak.
    Blaine: Farfetch'd's Slash is ridiculous. Jynx still does really well here, a testament to bad AI and good Lovely Kiss.
    Giovanni: Farfetch'd can actually set up on Rhyhorn to sweep with Body Slam. Slash isn't as bad as it sounds on Rhyhorn either. Electrode has the unusual distinction of having an advantageous matchup against Dugtrio, 3HKOing it with Swift, usually surviving one Dig, and hitting Dugtrio while it's Digging. I was able to defeat Dugtrio, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking in succession with Electrode.
    Lorelei: My Lapras was able to Thunder down individual enemies but wasn't able to beat more than one at a time. Electrode shone here.
    Lance: Lapras couldn't sweep but having a guaranteed OHKO on Dragonite is gravy.
  24. Naix

    Naix

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    @Longfellow
    I wouldn't exactly compare Ekans to Growlithe, as while they're both dependent on Dig, Ekans is noticeably more so as its base Attack is easily less than Growlithe's. Also, Ekans has to wait before it can evolve or learn Dig, while Growlithe can do both almost immediately after obtaining it.
    In my opinion, a more adequate comparison for Arbok would be Butterfree. The reason for this is because they're early-game Pokemon held back by their weak starts, base 80 attacking stats, and lack of (good) STAB. They're also reliant on TMs to do well later on in the game. Of course, Butterfree does better against Poison-types and Rock-types thanks to its access to Psybeam by level up, but they do similarly otherwise.

    Also, I get what you did with the whole "equal exp. across the board" thing, but I'm not seeing a person casually playing through a Pokemon game doing something like that. While I (and most likely others) appreciate what you did, I think a more realistic (and relevant) scenario would be to use every Pokemon at an equal level and note how much effort it takes them to catch up with the rest of the party (unless of course it's Dugtrio, a starter, or something along those lines), because that's what a casual player's most likely going to do when playing the game.

    Finally, I don't mean to pry, but didn't you say earlier in this thread you were going to rewrite Clefairy's entry? You can keep the availability and movepool sections and revamp the rest if you want. I was told it would be okay to do that, so long as nothing conflicts with what was already written or the wording isn't drastically different.
  25. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    @Naix
    Growlithe comes at a lower level (relative to where you are in the game) and grows more slowly than Ekans so the difference in stats is less than it seems. They do similar damage the same way that Nidoking and Nidoqueen do similar damage.

    I know a casual player won't play like that, but it's a good way to strictly compare Pokémon, which is what we are doing. I'm just trying to be precise and I want to be clear exactly what I'm doing so nobody's surprised when I say that Farfetch'd is extremely powerful or something.

    Anyway I've been slow about rewriting Clefairy due to being busy/lazy, so I'll take your kick in my butt and write it now. Also featuring Farfetch'd.

    Farfetch'd rewrite (open)
    Farfetch'd (RB) - High Tier
    Availability: Spearow can be traded for Farfetch'd in Vermilion City. Spearow themselves are common in the early routes and can be found up to level 17 just outside Vermilion.
    Stats: Farfetch'd's base stats are all near 60. Its low stats are somewhat redeemed by the exp. bonus it gets from being an outsider. When you account for its extra levels, Farfetch'd is roughly equivalent to a Pokémon with base 90 attack and its other stats at base 75, which is unremarkable but acceptable.
    Movepool: Farfetch'd has a narrow but coherent movepool. It can learn Body Slam, Double-Edge, and Fly by TM and HM—these are its attacks for most of the game. At level 23 it learns Swords Dance, making it much more dangerous against bosses and other multi-Pokémon trainers, and at level 39 it learns Slash, an immensely powerful move that can one-shot many opponents. Agility, which it learns at level 31, is a decent replacement for one of the above moves that allows it to avoid hits and better sweep bosses. Farfetch'd can also make a good HM slave with the unusual combination of Cut and Fly.
    Power: Due to its STAB on Body Slam and Fly, coupled with Swords Dance, as well as its late-game Slash (which is unaffected by the Swords Dance attack boosts but does much more damage without setup), Farfetch'd is an offensive juggernaut.
    Type: Farfetch'd both hits and gets hit for neutral damage most of the time.
    Match-ups:
    -Lt. Surge: Raichu OHKO's Farfetch'd.
    -Erika: Farfetch'd should win with Fly. It cannot OHKO Victreebel, unfortunately, which leaves it open to Sleep Powder.
    -Koga: Farfetch'd can set up on the first Koffing, though Smokescreen can complicate your sweep. Muk's Sludge and Weezing's Selfdestruct will probably kill you if they hit.
    -Sabrina: Kadabra and Alakazam are strong enough to two-shot Farfetch'd at least, so if you're going for a sweep you have to hope they choose other moves. Your best strategy is probably to leave Kadabra to one of your other Pokémon and set up your Swords Dance (and Agility, if you have it) on Mr. Mime.
    -Blaine: Farfetch'd's newly-learned Slash will ream Blaine's gym, 2HKOing even his bulky Arcanine. You could also set up Swords Dance as usual.
    -Giovanni: As silly as it looks, Farfetch'd can Swords Dance on Giovanni's Rhyhorn and sweep his team. It will have to endure residual damage and there are Pokémon who can beat Rhyhorn and Rhydon faster. Farfetch'd can also outpower Giovanni's non-Rock Pokémon with Slash.
    -Lorelei: Farfetch'd can set up against Slowbro and sweep through Jynx and Lapras. It can win individually against Dewgong but will get heavily damaged. Cloyster's high defense and Aurora Beam will defeat Farfetch'd.
    -Agatha: Farfetch'd must risk various status effects to beat Agatha's Pokémon. It faces additional problems setting up a sweep in that the attack boosts from Swords Dance will increase confusion damage and Golbat can Haze away its boosts. Farfetch'd can usually beat Agatha's Pokémon individually but a sweep is unlikely.
    -Lance: Farfetch'd is too frail to survive Lance's heavy attacks.
    -Rival: Farfetch'd does not like Alakazam but can win in a pinch if Alakazam does not use Psychic or Psybeam. It also struggles against the sheer power of Gyarados, Blastoise, and Charizard. A Farfetch'd with both Swords Dance and Agility can set up a full sweep on Rival's Pidgeot; if only Swords Dance, then it can set up against Rhydon and hopefully make it to Rival's last Pokémon.
    Additional comments: Farfetch'd is a much more serious Pokémon than it looks. It makes up for mediocre speed and bulk and slight TM dependence with its great power. It one- or two-shots most common enemies and matches well against most bosses. Be careful not to exceed the level at which you can control outsiders, though, or your greatest ally can turn into your worst nightmare.


    Clefairy rewrite (open)
    Clefairy - High Tier
    Availability: Clefairy can be caught in Mt. Moon but are uncommon (highest encounter rate in Red and Blue is 6%). Their levels range from 8 to 12. They evolve via Moon Stone, which is also available in Mt. Moon. Clefairy should be evolved immediately as they do not learn any useful moves by level-up. If the low encounter rate turns you off, you can buy one in the Rocket Game Corner for 500 coins in Red and 750 coins in Blue. It is inexpensive but underleveled, so it is recommended to be patient in Mt. Moon instead.
    Stats: Clefable's average stats, high HP, and fast exp. rate make it a Pokémon that is moderately powerful and very bulky.
    Movepool: As Clefairy's level-up movepool is barren (though Sing can be useful), it relies on TMs. Fortunately it learns most of them and can mix and match based on the needs of your team. Useful TMs it can learn include Mega Punch, Water Gun, Bubblebeam, Thunder Wave, Thunderbolt and Thunder, Ice Beam and Blizzard, Psychic, Body Slam, Tri Attack, Double-Edge, and Hyper Beam. Some of these moves are both low-demand and extra-tasty, such as Psychic and Bubblebeam. Even if you run a TM-heavy party, however, Clefairy's omnivorousness ensures that it will have a strong moveset with some coverage, though its exact moves vary from run to run.
    Power: Clefairy's peak power is in Mt. Moon and immediately thereafter as Clefairy's Mega Punch is your strongest possible move at that point. Due to Normal STAB, Clefairy's Mega Punch, Body Slam, Tri Attack, or Strength will continue to be strong (if not exceptionally so) throughout the whole game. Clefairy can also swing hard from the special side, especially with Psychic which commonly has type advantage in first generation's Poison-heavy atmosphere.
    Type: Clefairy usually hits and gets hit for neutral damage.
    Match-ups: It is difficult to cover all of Clefairy's many movesets. This write-up assumes Clefairy, as a base, learned Mega Punch in Mt. Moon and continues to use a strong Normal STAB throughout the game.
    -Misty: Clefable is the best non-Grass Pokémon at defeating Misty, given its peerless bulk and power at this part of the game. It can take 3 non-critical Bubblebeams from Starmie and can 3HKO it with Mega Punch. This matchup favors you considering Misty likes to mess around with Tackle and Water Gun. Sing and Thunder Wave can also help your odds.
    -Lt. Surge: Clefable can withstand 2 to 3 Thunderbolts from Raichu and 2HKO back with Mega Punch. However, Raichu's faster, so you may have to rely on a lucky critical or a bad move choice by Raichu. As before, Thunder Wave or Sing can help.
    -Erika: Clefable should be able to power through with its Normal moves, but it risks being trapped by Victreebel's Wrap or Erika's various status moves. If Clefable knows Ice Beam or Psychic, the battle will go somewhat more smoothly.
    -Koga: Clefable dislikes the defensive standard of Koga's Pokémon and needs some luck to outpace him in damage. However, Clefable can sweep him. Psychic makes the battle much easier and a status move like Sing and Thunder Wave couldn't hurt, especially against Muk and Weezing.
    -Sabrina: Clefable's physical power and special bulk make it an excellent choice for this fight. It can win by the brute force of its Normal moves, though Alakazam can ruin your sweep if it decides to use Psychic.
    -Blaine: Clefable should sweep. Rapidash's Fire Spin and Arcanine's Fire Blast hurt, though, and it is possible to lose if Blaine chooses his moves well, which is rare.
    -Giovanni: Clefable should use whatever Special move it may have to defeat Rhyhorn and Rhydon as it will not make progress with its Normal moves. Dugtrio, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking can be beaten in a more straightforward fashion, especially if Giovanni spends his time applying Guard Spec. instead of attacking; they do occasionally put up a fight. In Yellow, his Nidoqueen and Rhydon can actually pose an offensive threat, making things overall more dangerous for Clefable, who will get worn down quite quickly when fighting Dugtrio and Persian alone.
    -Lorelei: Clefable with Thunderbolt or Thunder can damage Lorelei's Pokémon and, with items such as X Special, even orchestrate a sweep. If Clefable doesn't have Thunderbolt, however, it does not like the physical bulk of Lorelei's Pokémon and struggles to beat more than one in a row.
    -Bruno: Watch out for Hi Jump Kick from Hitmonlee and Submission from Machamp.
    -Agatha: Even if Clefable knows Psychic, Agatha is a rough battle and you should not expect to sweep her. Without Psychic Clefable can not make satisfactory progress against her Ghosts.
    -Lance: Clefable can challenge the Dragonair with its Normal moves but will probably be overpowered if it challenges Lance's other Dragons that way. Thunder or Thunderbolt allows it to defeat Gyarados whereas Ice Beam or Blizzard expediates the rest of the fight.
    -Rival: Clefable's chances against each of Rival's Pokémon depends on its moveset. It can always defeat Pidgeot, Arcanine, and Exeggutor. With Ice Beam, Blizzard, or Psychic it can challenge Venusaur and Rhydon; with Thunderbolt or Thunder it can challenge Gyarados and Blastoise; with any of those Electric or Ice moves it can challenge Charizard. With Thunder Wave or Sing it improves its odds against everyone and enables Alakazam to be beaten too.
    Additional Comments: Its game-long power through high stats, Normal STAB, and elemental coverage is enough on its own to make Clefable one of the better Pokémon in the game. Its ability to fill any role your team is missing, whether it be a Water Gun/Bubblebeam user to defeat early-game Rocks or Psychic to defeat the Rocket Poisons or Thunderbolt to ream the Flying and Water Pokémon leading up to Cinnabar, is what makes Clefable a truly good teammate.


    Edits for clarifying/using words right/etc.
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