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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Dodrio's 20 extra base attack is a pretty big deal. Add the access to better Normal moves and getting Drill Peck earlier and you've got a significantly stronger Pokémon, whereas Fearow is never significantly stronger than the unevolved Doduo.

    That said, I think an argument can be made for Spearow in High on its own merits/compared to other High-tier Pokémon. I guess I'd put Spearow in Mid but would be fine either way.
  2. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    I'd rank Spearow/Fearow in High based on the fact that they're available must earlier in the game than Doduo/Dodrio, meaning you don't have to waste too much experience on Doduo to play catch-up.
  3. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    The question is: is Dodrio's 20 extra attack significant enough for a lead? Is Dodrio capable of killing things with Double-Edge/Hyper Beam that Fearow can't? If Fearow is capable of killing the same enemies in the same amount of hits as Dodrio, then Fearow and Dodrio are pretty identical in this regard.

    Getting Drill Peck earlier is only a minor win for Doduo, unless the 4 levels between which Doduo and Fearow get Drill Peck is significant enough for Fearow's performance to be an entire tier later. Yes, Fearow is statistically inferior to Dodrio in every regard (except 1 point of special but who gives a shit), but if Fearow is capable of getting the job done, why not?
  4. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Also, let's rebember the stat. exp., when you get Duduo, it's without any stat. exp., while Spearow could have helped you along a good bunch of the time (about the half), and he could just developed stronger stats than Duduo/Dodrio. Spearow is not something like Magikarp that you need to train in order to use, Spearow is useful from the moment you catch it, and even if you don't want to expend to much experience on it, you can still catch one at higher levels, but still earlier.

    Just for refreshing the memory, EV = The Square Root of your current Stat. Exp. (rounded down).

    It means if you used a Spearow and you wanted to change it for a Duduo; you'll have a worst Fearow always, because it will be (a lot) less trained, making your Fearow trained from those level 4 Spearows a harder hitter (with more speed and bulky) at the same level as a Dodrio. That's an advantage of every each Pokémon you get earlier at low levels and can help you on the while.
  5. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    Those are good points. Then again, Spearow is nothing special before Route 16 gives it Fly (Peck and Fury Attack are lousy moves), so... I dunno. I guess I'd have to test Spearow and Doduo out again to say anything for sure.
  6. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Yes, that's maybe the main point, is Spearow (as Spearow) useful enough to being on the High Tier? Because as Fearow he's almost the exactly same thing than Dodrio thanks you needed to train him, of course, both are really good once you have Fly, but that's where the question comes, you need to train the Spearow (or catch him as Fearow later, but that's somewhat pointless having Duduo), I feel Spearow is useful enough to don't being a dead weight for it's team while he's trying to being a great Fearow, but he's kinda bad for the caves and against some trainers, those points really makes hard if he's Mid or High Tier.
  7. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I've been testing Route 16 Spearow in Yellow.

    My team when I entered Celadon was Pikachu, Butterfree and Clefable, all level 31. I headed straight to Route 16 and caught a level 22 Spearow (I went with this level because it is the only level that exists in both RB and Yellow so it seemed the most useful way to go). I healed it, taught it Fly and headed straight to Celadon Gym.

    The whole process went like this:

    Show Hide
    Start: Level 22 Spearow
    First Opponent
    L23 Bellsprout, Fly did 95% damage, Stun Spore missed, Fly killed next turn.
    L23 Weepinbell, Fly crits and OHKOs
    New Opponent
    L21 Oddish, Fly did 90% damage, Absorb, Fly killed next turn
    L21 Bellsprout, Fly OHKOs
    Spearow grew to level 23
    L21 Oddish, Fly OHKOs
    L21 Bellsprout, Fly OHKOs
    Spearow evolves into Fearow
    New Opponent
    L24 Bellsprout, Fly OHKOs
    L24 Bellsprout, Fly OHKOs
    Fearow grew to level 24
    New Opponent
    L24 Bulbasaur, Fly OHKOs
    L24 Ivysaur, Fly OHKOs
    New Opponent
    L23 Oddish, Fly OHKOs
    L23 Gloom, Fly did 95% damage, Absorb, Fly killed next turn
    Fearow grew to level 25
    Healed Fearow at Pokemon Centre (low PP)
    New Opponent
    L26 Exeggcute, Fly did 90%, Barrage, Fly killed next turn
    New Opponent
    L24 Weepinbell, Fly OHKOs
    L24 Gloom, Fly OHKOs
    Fearow grew to level 26
    L24 Ivysaur, Fly OHKOs
    Erika (current HP=69/78)
    L30 Tangela, Fly misses, Constrict, Fly did 80% damage (crit), Bind (2 turns), Fly killed next turn
    Fearow grew to level 27
    L32 Weepinbell, Fly did 95% damage, Acid (Defence drop), Fly killed next turn
    L32 Gloom, Fly did 70% damage, Acid, Fly killed next turn


    Take that as you will. There was a bit a hax going both ways, but it's hard to avoid that. So other than the first few trainers as a Spearow, which Spearow doesn't really lose to but has to be wary of status a bit, it does the same thing as Doduo overall. Doduo is clearly better in this scenario, if only because it starts out with higher Attack before Spearow evolves, but overall Spearow/Fearow did very well and swept the whole gym on its own. I had to heal once for PP, but I've used Doduo before and had to do the same thing with that as well.

    So next I have to do the Rocket Hideout, and then Pokemon Tower and beyond.
  8. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I think I've made up my mind about Spearow... sort of.

    After Celadon Gym, Fearow did very well in the Rocket Hideout, Pokemon Tower and that route south of Lavender Town with all those underlevelled Water types. On the way to Fuschia City Fearow OHKOs many things with Drill Peck, and those that survive are usually OHKOed by Double-Edge.

    There are definitely times where Dodrio's extra Attack makes a difference when using Drill Peck. Just as a random example, during the Koga fight, Fearow's Drill Peck just failed to OHKO the third Venonat, and it did around 70% to Venomoth. Dodrio would definitely have killed the Venonat and probably the Venomoth too, maybe. There are other examples, although most of these are nearly irrelevent in my opinion (who cares if Drill Peck fails to OHKO some random Bird Keeper's Pidgeotto?). I'm starting to wonder if I should have gone to the Fighting Dojo after the Rocket Hideout. It would basically have been free experience and I might have been better off in these situations. Oh well.

    I imagine the power drop would also come into play against trainers like Blaine, where Fearow and Dodrio are relying on raw power rather than type advantages to win. I didn't test Fearow's performance against Blaine though (and honestly, you'll probably be using a Water type against him anyway).

    On the other hand, the power drop is meaningless against Sabrina. Drill Peck OHKOs Abra and Kadabra, and Double-Edge OHKOs Alakazam. Alakazam was faster when I battled it so Fearow wasn't a "safe" choice for this battle, but Dodrio has the same Speed as Fearow and virtually the same bulk so it faces the same situation.



    Of course, Doduo is just flat out better. The "advantages" of using Spearow are small:
    • Earlier evolution - The extra Attack and Speed are probably meaningless, but the extra bulk would be helpful. Not everything is OHKOed by Fly early on, and Fearow is better equiped for dealing with hits from Pokemon that survive (e.g. Raticate in the Rocket Hideout using Hyper Fang, or even Tackle). I don't think it's enough to convince anyone to use Spearow over Doduo though.
    • Availability - Spearow is more common in RB, but this isn't a huge deal because it's not like Doduo is even that rare. It also doesn't apply in Yellow, where Doduo is more common and comes at a higher possible level.
    • Mirror Move - Doduo can't learn this, but Mirror Move is situational at best. It is mainly useful to conserve PP. For example, if something survives my first attack and then uses something like Tackle in return, I can use Mirror Move to finish them off instead of using PP from my other moves. I barely used it though.
    The advantages of using Spearow are dubious at best. But Spearow still does very well and if you were to imagine a hypothetical situation where Doduo doesn't exist...

    I think putting Spearow up in High is "justifiable". However, I'm not 100% convinced and it's still on the borderline for me. 90 Attack isn't amazing and it struggles a bit against bulkier opponents, but it still has some good match-ups and is a fast and reasonable powerful attacker for getting through regular trainers with underlevelled crap.

    And then I look at the write up Naix did recently and it's very well written, covering most of the main aspects. I think it's also convincing enough to justify a Mid status.

    As I've said before in this thread, my policy for Pokemon that I consider to be on the borderline is to default to the lower tier because I see it as the safer choice. So I guess my verdict is: don't revamp the current analysis for now and leave Spearow in Mid, but if anyone else is more passionate about moving Spearow up to High then I'll support that too. That sounds like a bit of a mixed message, but that's just how I feel.

    I think I'll leave splitting up Psyduck for now as well. It's not something I care much about at the moment and no-one else seems to either. I might look at it again later though.

    So from now on I'm probably just going to go through all of my previous entries and revamp them as required. Some of my earlier ones, like Onix, aren't really that great compared to some of the more recent ones and I'd like to update them. I might redo my Growlithe one too if no-one else does it first, since the consensus seems to be to drop it down from High.
  9. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Triple post/massive bump...

    I guess I better start doing these revamps like I said I would.

    Starting with:

    Onix (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Onix - Low Tier
    -Availability: Onix is caught in the Rock Tunnel. Although this isn't exactly late, Onix does come rather underleveled (especially in RB; in Yellow it is a bit better at level 22). It is also somewhat uncommon and has a relatively low catch rate.
    -Stats: Onix's stats are terribly distributed. Its best stat is Defense by far. At 160, it is the second highest in the game (behind Cloyster). Onix also has 70 Speed which is acceptable in-game and quite high for a Pokemon of its type. Unfortunately, that's where the good news ends. Remarkably, Onix has the second lowest Attack stat (45, ties with Mr. Mime and Butterfree, but beats Chansey) and the lowest Special stat (30) out of all the fully evolved Pokemon in the game! Onix also has a pitiful HP stat (35), and although it can still take physical hits quite well the low HP does go some way to cancelling out Onix's massive Defense.
    -Movepool: Onix has a poor level up movepool, with Slam as its strongest Attack. It also gets Bind but trapping strategies generally aren’t recommended for efficient playthroughs. Onix will need to use TMs to get its ideal movepool. Onix gets Dig, Earthquake and Rock Slide which are all great moves, but it's important to keep in mind that Onix is in competition with a lot of Pokemon for access to these TMs, and thanks to its horrible stats Onix is almost always an inferior choice for these exclusive moves.
    -Power: Even if it manages to get all of its best moves, Onix's Attack is too low for sweeping multiple enemies. It should be said that the useful resistances provided by its typing do allow it to beat certain foes one-on-one, but it isn't really able to kill things quickly and of course its low Special and horrible weaknesses cause it flat out lose against other opponents, making its performance inconsistent.
    -Type: Its typing is a mixed bag. On the plus side, its STABs alone have perfect coverage against everything. Rock/Ground also gives it a useful Normal resistance, and there are some opponents that simply can't touch Onix to save themselves (Electric types especially have this problem). On the other hand, it has horrible 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass (along with Fighting, Ground and Ice weaknesses). Basically, its typing guarantees that it will have great match-ups at particular parts of the game, but its weaknesses ensure that it will need plenty of team support to get around dangerous foes.
    -Match-ups: Lt. Surge - It is technically possible to have Onix before this battle. If you do, you win. You are immune to Electric and take little from his Normal attacks, and you should have STAB Dig on your side.
    Erika - Onix is horribly weak to Grass and should sit this one out. If you must use it, Onix can at least beat Tangela in RB because it only has Bind and Constrict.
    Koga - Onix's high Defense and resistances are well suited to this battle in RB. In Yellow, his bugs are hitting you on your weaker side, although Venonat is rather weak and you should have Rock Slide. This match-up isn’t a complete disaster.
    Sabrina - Onix is facing STAB Psychic attacks and although it isn't weak to them they can still do a lot to it. Onix is probably one of the few physical attackers that her Pokemon are able to take hits from comfortably. At least Venomoth is weak to Rock Slide, and Mr. Mime only has Confusion so it is less threatening than Kadabra and Alakazam.
    Blaine - Your typing is perfect for this battle, but don't think you have it easy. Ninetales's Flamethrower is going to hurt, as is Fire Blast from Arcanine. You can contribute in this gym, but it isn't necessarily a clean sweep like in Lt. Surge's gym.
    Giovanni - Onix can do ok in RB because most of his Pokemon can't do much to it (Dugtrio’s Dig is easy to play around). In Yellow, everything bar Persian has STAB Earthquake. Onix has enough Defense to take a few of these but they will take their toll. Overall, Onix is pretty useful against Giovanni but hardly the number one choice.
    Lorelei – Don’t use Onix here. Onix’s typing is not suited for this battle and it doesn’t do enough damage (even with it having a super-effective STAB Rock Slide for most of her team).
    Bruno – Onix is capable of beating itself, especially in RB. Hitmonchan is a bit of a joke, but stay away from Hitmonlee and Machamp. Onix isn’t really a huge help for this battle but it can do something if you must use it.
    Agatha – Both STABs have perfect super-effective coverage against her entire team, but the Ghosts can easily screw you over with status. One of the Gengar in Yellow has Mega Drain which will destroy Onix, and Psychic also stings.
    Lance – In RB, only Gyarados has a move that is significantly dangerous to Onix (although the Dragonair also have Dragon Rage, which may sound like a joke but with Onix’s low HP it can be a significant threat if they start spamming it). Aerodactyl and Dragonite can’t really touch you, so you can beat those at least. In Yellow, Gyarados poses the same threat, but you also have BubbleBeam/Ice Beam Dragonair and Blizzard Dragonite to worry about. Aerodactyl is still walled, and the Thunderbolt Dragonair will lose too.
    Blue – In RB, he has the moves and typing to take on Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine and Charizard. In Yellow, he can beat Exeggutor, Magneton, Ninetales, Jolteon and Flareon. Overall, Onix can contribute.
    -Additional Comments – Although calling Onix completely useless would be a bit unfair, what it comes down to is that its many flaws outweigh its positive attributes. Despite some decent match-ups, great dual STABs and a few useful resistances, Onix is very weak (it even has a lower Attack stat than some unevolved Pokemon like Oddish, Pikachu and Psyduck). It is completely reliant on some valuable TMs, it has a number of terrible weaknesses and struggles to sweep opponents which leaves it highly dependent upon its team mates to help it out, and to top it off it is somewhat annoying to find and capture. It just isn’t worth it.


    The main points of the analysis didn't really change but I added more detail, removed some faulty arguments (like the part at the end where I bring up how Geodude outclasses it which is true but isn't really solid reasoning for Onix's tier placement) and tried to make it look more professional (I found an OMG in my old one -_-).

    I'll probably do more revamps when I feel more motivated, but if anyone has any feedback for Onix then feel free to comment.
  10. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Excelent revamp about Onix, it pretty muchs says everything about him.

    About Spearow, the main idea of use Spearow over Duduo is catching it early on the game, as Duduo is obvious better than Fearow, but as you pointed, Duduo barely does more than Fearow around the game, and Spearow is not-so-great on the early-mid point of the game.
  11. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    @Nyara: Thanks!

    I really don't have anything else to say about Spearow. Others can deal with it if they want!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    What do people think of this set for in-game runs?

    Poliwrath
    Amnesia
    Surf
    Ice Beam/Blizzard
    Psychic/Body Slam

    I was just going over some of my old entries to decide which ones to revamp, and Poliwag is one of them. In the old entry I was a bit dismissive of Amnesia and I didn't use it in my playthrough because I evolved it before level 41, but I think this could work out very well. Poliwhirl can be caught at level 40 in Yellow and that's just 1 level away from Amnesia, and then with the excellent coverage of its moves it would be just like Slowbro but with much better Speed in exchange for STAB on Psychic and a few Special points. If you can get this as soon as you get the Super Rod, then the rest of the game would probably be pretty easy for you.

    Not sure how viable this would be in RB since the capture level isn't as high (level 23 Poliwhirl is the best you can do I think). I suppose preventing Poliwhirl from evolving until level 41 wouldn't be that bad but I don't really know.

    Just a thought, although I really don't think I want to do any more testing in this game!
  12. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Eh I think Earthquake would be better than Body Slam if opting for a Physical Move. I reread your first Poliwag review on page 1, and to be honest I get the feeling that the only battle that using an Amnesia set would change is Lorelei (although Slowbro will still be trouble).
  13. Nyara

    Nyara

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    About Poliwhirl... first thing: I LOVE POLIWHIRL, is one of my favorite Pokémon ever, too bad it doesn't evolve too well (I'm not particulary a fan of Poliwrath, and I dislike Politoed). Poliwhirl's stats before evolving are from being bad, actually, he's really fast, so, nothing will outspeed your Poliwhirl at all, it does have one of highest bulkies of NFE Pokémon, so, it can take a hit or two, and it's attack is usable, and it does have STAB Water Gun and later Surf (and you can still waste some TMs on him), and he does learn Body Slam! With Amnesia he can pretty much solo anything later on the game, except maybe Agata and it's status madness.

    If you're gonna use Amnesia, there is not too much point in evolve Poliwhirl, anyway, Poliwrath's new weakness are kinda nasty, you're losing 20 base speed, and the difference of physical bulky is not excesive high to compensate the speed drop.

    Amnesia = Stay as Poliwhirl
    Not Amnesia = Fast Poliwrath

    Don't forget he learns Hypnosis, for your in-game catchs.
  14. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    @Hemp Man: I listed Body Slam because Poliwhirl gets it from level up, although the Psychic and Earthquake TMs are probably more useful if they're free, yeah.

    If you are talking about just gym leaders and elite 4 members, then I would probably agree with the Lorelei thing. I imagine Amnesia would be more helpful against regular trainers. The Power section I wrote says that its middling stats are a problem, so why not use Amnesia to patch it up? I dunno, I just see a parallel between Poliwag and what happened to Slowpoke. I originally put Slowpoke in Low based on my experiences without Amnesia, but then we moved it up because we decided that Amnesia Slowbro was better than Low. In this case, I put Poliwag (technically Poliwhirl but whatever) in Mid based on my experiences without Amnesia... you see where I'm going with this?

    Honestly I don't care that much. Having Poliwag in Mid isn't that big of a deal and doesn't harm the tier list in any way. I just thought it was interesting that's all. My focus at the moment will be revamping my old analyses.
  15. Nyara

    Nyara

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    It depends.

    Without TM Support: Great Mid Tier

    Poliwag's best option is just remain as it's, once it evolve to Poliwhirl, just aim for the Amnesia, you're gonna do an adobe-avarage job around the game, and when Poliwhirl's stats are starting to show its problem, you're gonna get Amnesia, and that pretty much with Poliwhirl's great speed means you can sweep any trainer, gym leader, and Elite Four. I don't see any reason to evolve Poliwhirl in this case, anyway, Amnesia + High-High Speed + Perfect Coverage + Good Type is just too good to drop in favor of some physical bulk and power.

    With TM Support: Good High Tier

    Evolve Poliwhirl ASAP, and put it whatever TM you want, you're gonna get a TOP Pokémon until you're near of the Elite Four, were he's just mid tier.
  16. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    One of the big problems with the tadpole is the level it comes at. In RB, it comes at a bogus Level 15, while in Yellow, it can range from 5-15. In terms of efficiency, this isn't where it's at. Not to mention you have to trade one for a Jynx anyway. It's Gyarados all over again, without the good points that Gyarados has (trashing endgame and monster stats).
  17. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    RainbowBadge nets you the ability to fish on the water segments of Route 23 for up to L40 Poliwhirl in Yellow. Considering Blaine gets utterly steamrolled by any generic water type, Yellow Poliwag's pretty legit to me imo. RB poli... uh... go to hell.
  18. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Access to Ice Beam right away helps a bunch for Poliwhirl at least, and Poliwrath can get Rock Slide if memory serves. So seperate tiers for RB and Y Poliwag sounds good for me.
  19. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Some more revamps!

    The Dratini and Yellow Charmander revamps weren't as drastic as the Onix one. I just reworded some parts and removed some information I now see as pointless (like the part in Dratini's where I talk about how being forced to buy only 50 coins at a time slows down the playthrough, seriously who cares?). Some parts weren't changed at all.

    Zubat's was fine, although I corrected an error in availability regarding its highest catch level.

    I'll do more later.

    Dratini (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Dratini - Low Tier
    -Availability: In RB, you can theoretically get it as soon as you get to Celadon by buying it from the Game Corner. It is cheaper in Red but is at a lower level and therefore requires more grinding (level 18 for 2800 coins in Red and level 24 for 4600 coins in Blue). So either you’ll have to fork over a bit of money but spend time grinding, or you’ll get it at a more manageable level but have to spend up bigger. Neither is particularly desirable in an efficient playthrough. Alternatively, you can catch it in the Safari Zone with a Super Rod at level 15. This is probably a bit more practical and cheaper, but you are at the mercy of the Safari Zone mechanics and the level is a lot worse especially at that point in the game. In Yellow, it can only be obtained from the Safari Zone, and it is a bit rarer. It comes at the same level. Note that it is possible to catch Dragonair as well, but since you’ll likely have to go past level 30 for Dragonair to match your team, this isn’t really much of an advantage.
    -Stats: Dragonite has the highest Attack in the game (134), great bulk (91/95/100) and decent Speed (80). Unfortunately this is nearly irrelevent because Dragonair evolves so late that Dragonite's stats are unavailable for most of the game. Instead, you are using Dragonair and its 84 Attack, 70 Speed and 61/65/70 bulk. It is fairly weak, and Dratini is even worse.
    -Movepool: Dratini’s level up movepool is not that good. Hyper Beam comes way too late. Slam has decent power but is inaccurate, though Thunder Wave has some utility until stronger moves come along. Dratini can also use the Agility/Thunder Wave + Wrap combo to get around troublesome opponents, but this is slow and not very reliable. On the plus side, Dratini has great TM/HM compatibility. Pick from Surf, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt or Body Slam. Obviously these comes with opportunity costs (except Surf) but chances are that you will have at least a few of these free so it isn’t so bad.
    -Power: You are using Dragonair for most of the game and its low stats make it barely adequate. It does put work in and its wide TM compatibility ensure that it will be at least useful, but it will most likely be the weak link of the team.
    -Type: It doesn’t learn any STAB moves sadly (not even Fly). From a defensive point of view, pure Dragon is nice. A strong set of resistances is backed up a general lack of Ice moves throughout the game. It is also unique to Dragonair. For types that Dragon doesn't resist, Dragonair will be using its stats and sadly these will sometimes fall short.
    -Match-ups: Erika: Grass resistance, but you need Ice Beam to really be helpful at all. If you do then it should go ok though it won’t absolutely dominate the gym.
    Koga: Neutral, in terms of type advantages. Koga sucks in RB so pretty much anything can work here (Dragonair is no exception but a full solo might be a bit much). Venonat is weak so Yellow is the same deal.
    Sabrina: Alakazam will be too strong to handle. It doesn’t do well in the gym overall, though Thunderbolt can help against the Slowbro and Slowpoke used by the gym trainers.
    Blaine: This gym is one of your best match-ups. Surf is probably the best move to teach Dragonair simply due to it being a HM rather than a TM, and Surf + Fire resistance gives it a good showing here. Don't underestimate the power of Arcanine's physical moves though.
    Giovanni: Chances are you’ll have at least one move that hits Ground super-effective (Surf most likely), so you do alright here too.
    Lorelei: Ice attacks are being thrown out a lot here so don’t bother.
    Bruno: Onix dies to Surf. Dragonite should be strong enough to kill everything else, but Dragonair might struggle against Hitmonlee and Machamp.
    Agatha: Golbat is weak to Thunderbolt and Ice Beam/Blizzard, but if it outspeeds and confuses you then you may lose anyway. Arbok shouldn’t be too much of an issue but Gengar can still win if you are unlucky.
    Lance: Depends on your moves it has. Thunderbolt hits Gyarados, Ice Beam/Blizzard hits the dragons and Aerodactyl is weak to both. In Yellow you need to watch out for an ice attack from Lance’s Dragonair and Dragonite.
    Blue: In theory, you can hit pretty much everything super-effectively but again it depends on what you gave it. Chances are that you'll be able to take on at least a few things though.
    Additional comments: Dragonite is awesome, but because it evolves so late it may as well not exist before the Elite 4 (and even then you may not have it yet). Instead, what you are essentially getting is Dragonair, who has below average stats. Combine this with how tedious it can be to obtain in the first place and you have a pokemon that is clearly at home in Low tier.


    Zubat's availability (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Availability: You can get it before the second badge in Mt. Moon. Zubat’s relative weakness does mean that you’ll need to grind it though, regardless of the level you catch it (it can be as high as level 12 in RB and 13 in Yellow), which is a pain since it can only beat opposing Zubat at this point. It is a tedious task, made worse by Leech Life’s low PP forcing you to run back and forth between Mt. Moon and the Pokémon centre outside.


    Charmander (Yellow) (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Charmander (Yellow) - High Tier
    -Availability: You get it at around the second gym at level 10. It comes under-levelled, but there is a patch of grass nearby containing Bellsprout, Oddish and Venonat, all of which Charmander can beat and all of which give plenty of experience. It does slow your playthrough a bit but it does not take Charmander too long to catch up and it’s worth it in the long run.
    -Stats: Charizard’s stats are reasonably balanced. 100 Speed is great for in-game runs, and 84 Attack and 85 Special are acceptable. 78/78/85 bulk gives Charizard reasonable defensive capabilities, allowing it to takes hits now and then.
    -Movepool: Its level up movepool is not that great early on. Charmeleon needs Dig. Without it, Charmeleon is quite mediocre until it gets Slash at level 33. This is an issue since Dig is a valuable TM, but Charizard is a great user of Dig so don’t think of it as a waste. Charizard only needs Dig and Slash to dominate, and Fly and Flamethrower are mere bonuses.
    -Power: It should be said that Charmander goes through a bit of a lag phase as Charmeleon, but with Dig (and later Slash) it can pull its weight. Once it evolves it becomes excellent. Charizard is a great in-game Pokémon, powering through opponents with ease.
    -Type: It learns Fly and Flamethrower, which have good coverage (although Charizard will be using Slash and Dig for the most part). Defensively, it has a niche as a Fire type that is immune to Ground. Water, Rock, Ice and Electric weaknesses aren’t helpful but in most battles they are irrelevant because Charizard will kill opponents before they move.
    -Match-ups: Misty - Bad match-up, but Charmeleon with Dig can still act as a supporting attacker for teams lacking a specific answer to her team (e.g. finishing off Starmie after it's weakened and paralyzed).
    Lt. Surge – If you have Dig and are at an acceptable level, you will do well here.
    Erika – The sad thing is that Ember is not that powerful despite the type advantage, but the grass resistance should be enough for you to contribute. Dig is neutral against Gloom and Weepinbell which is handy.
    Koga – Venonat is weak so it shouldn’t be an issue. Fly is super-effective against his whole team and Psychic doesn’t exactly take Charizard down instantly.
    Sabrina – Slash deals plenty of damage on her Pokémon’s lower defence stat. As long as you are at a reasonable level you should be fine.
    Blaine – You win with Dig. If Arcanine uses Reflect then use Slash to ignore it!
    Giovanni – You beat Dugtrio, as well as Persian due to strength alone. Dig is super-effective against Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Rhydon but you have to be careful around Thunder and Rock Slide.
    Lorelei – Charizard is actually weak to Ice in RBY (plus Water obviously) so this isn’t a good match-up. Slash should beat Jynx though.
    Bruno – Dig for Onix, but they have Rock Slide. Fighting resistance is helpful for Hitmonlee and Machamp.
    Agatha – Dig is great against everything except Golbat, who isn’t that strong anyway.
    Lance – Its weaknesses to Ice, Electric and Water hurt it, and Aerodactyl is the only Pokémon in the game to resist all of Charizard’s main moves. This isn’t a great match-up for Charizard.
    Blue – You should be fine to take on Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales and Flareon, and Alakazam is perfectly beatable thanks to Slash.
    -Additional Comments: The main thing that prevents Charmander being Top tier in Yellow is that it arrives underleveled. However, this is actually easy to overcome and you still benefit from Charizard’s great power, making it a solid choice for an efficient run through Yellow.


    Comments are welcome.

    @ Alice in Strings: Poliwrath doesn't get Rock Slide, but it gets plenty of other things so whatever.
  20. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Just to nitpicket, Charmander should have Misty added as a match-up in his review...even if he does get wrecked lol.
  21. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    Nitpicking as well in the Dratini review. You say that Dragonair can roast the Venonats in Koga's Gym if it has Fire Blast, but you get Fire Blast from Blaine, and in order to get that, you need to be able to Surf, which is obtained after beating Koga. So Dragonair will never be able to use Fire Blast on his Venonats.
  22. Longfellow

    Longfellow

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    161
    Charmander with Dig can beat Staryu at least. And if Pikachu/Abra paralyzes Starmie and does a little damage, Charmander might be able to finish it off.

    Not that Charmander's good against Misty, but due to the nature of the early Gym battles, even a Pokémon with a bad matchup can help the team win.
  23. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
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    1,004
    I revamped my old Mr. Mime entry although I didn't change it a lot. I did give Thunderbolt a bit more of a mention, but not too much because I don't want to give the impression that Mr. Mime NEEDS Thunderbolt (it helps but I'd rather give it to Zapdos or another Electric type).

    Mr. Mime (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Mr. Mime - High Tier
    -Availability: Obtained from a trade (Abra in RB and Clefairy in Yellow). Its level when you receive it depends on the level of the Pokémon you are trading. Chances are it will be underleveled unless you happen to level up the Pokémon you are going to trade away as you are heading to Vermillion City. However, the boosted experience allows Mr. Mime to gain levels very quickly and it will catch up to the rest of your team in a flash.
    -Stats: Mr. Mime has good Speed (90) and Special (100), giving it strong battling capabilities. The HP (40) and Defense (65) are low but it isn’t a crippling problem because most opponents will fold before they strike. Its frailty may come into play in gym leader battle though.
    -Movepool: Sadly, Mr. Mime has a poor level-up movepool. Confusion is its only decent attack, although it is acceptable early on and makes a good back-up to Psychic for killing weaklings and conserving PP. Speaking of which, it can learn Psychic through TM, which is pretty much all it needs. It also gets Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is its best option against other Psychics and it expands its coverage a bit, but it isn't something that Mr. Mime is in desperate need for and it should only be used if you have nothing else to give it to (Electric-types get first dibs).
    -Power: Mr. Mime is actually the weakest fully evolved pure-Psychic type, but this is more of a reflection of the quality of the other Psychics rather than Mr. Mime itself. It doesn’t quite OHKO with Confusion like Kadabra/Alakazam tend to but it is still a powerful Pokémon capable of at least 2HKOing pretty much everything. When it gets Psychic (obtainable before Erika) it really takes off and is capable of OHKOing most things.
    -Type: Psychic is highly regarded as the best type in RBY. Psychic is super-effective against Fighting and Poison, allowing it to blast through Team Rocket grunts, and it is only resisted by itself so it has excellent neutral coverage.
    -Match-ups: Lt. Surge – Decent match-up in RB thanks to high Special and his team's lack of powerful physical moves. Yellow is harder thanks to Mega Punch and Mega Kick. Raichu can take Confusion fairly easily too.
    Erika – Psychic destroys almost everything in this whole gym. Tangela can take it better than Gloom/Vileplume and Weepinbell/Victreebel but it can’t do much back.
    Koga – Psychic is super-effective against everything and it resists the Psychic attacks being fired back at it in Yellow. It should do great here.
    Sabrina – Pretty much a mirror match. The outcome depends on level but Recover gives Kadabra and Alakazam a bit of an edge unfortunately. You should beat Venomoth in RB easily though.
    Blaine – This also depends on level but Mr. Mime’s high special helps it take Flamethrower/Fire Blast. It doesn’t dominate because physical attacks hurt but it can contribute.
    Giovanni – Psychic makes short work of Nidoqueen and Nidoking. His other Pokémon have poor Special stats but they can hit back hard. Mr. Mime can contribute here too but just be wary of things like Persian's Slash.
    Lorelei – A neutral match-up overall, although Slowbro and Jynx resist Psychic so they are tricky to take down (note that Slowbro has Amnesia). Thunderbolt is useful here if you gave it to Mr. Mime, although your Electric type probably got it instead.
    Bruno – You win easily here. His fighting Pokémon lose. Onix is frail and can't hit back hard enough to be a real threat.
    Agatha – Psychic is super-effective against everything. You should win unless you get unlucky with confusion damage or something.
    Lance – There isn’t really an advantage or a disadvantage type wise. Mr. Mime won’t want to take Hyper Beam too much, but it can take special attacks which is handy in Yellow. Thunderbolt is great for Gyarados and Aerodactyl.
    Blue – None of his Pokémon are actually weak to Psychic except Venusaur, so this will come down to stats. You should be able to at least beat things like Venusaur, Pidgeot, and Rhydon among others. Thunderbolt will expand your targets too. Overall, Mr. Mime can pull its weight and you just have to pick your targets wisely.
    -Additional Comments: Although it doesn't have the raw killing power of Alakazam, it is still a great battler and the massive amount of experience this gains from battling makes it a great choice. It makes Mr. Mime a breeze to train and it also give more opportunities for its teammates to jump into battle and gain experience, making it a great team supporter.


    EDIT: I was originally going to not bother with Misty stuff for Charmander but I've decided that it should be mentioned after all. Given that it is difficult to grind up both Charmander and a Grass type for countering Misty, it may be necessary to ditch the Grass type and beat her using other means just so you don't sacrifice too much time and experience, and this may involve sending Charmander in to do something. Oh and I sorted out the other stuff that was mentioned. More revamps should be coming soon.
  24. CrazyCarl

    CrazyCarl

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2013
    Messages:
    20
    I didn't read through ALL 26 pages of this thread, but I think Squirtle deserves to be on a level of his own. Uber tier or something. Bulbasaur, Abra, and Charmander, Seel, Diglett, and everything else in top tier are not even close.

    And seriously, what is Seel doing in top tier anyways? Can't even get him until you have 6 badges, can you? You can get Staryu with the Superrod on the way down to Fuschia, and it can learn Psychic, ThunderBolt, IceBeam, and Surf. Or confuse ray if you like. And it has the god-mode Psychic type which certainly helps. But both are outclassed by Squirtle so hard it's not even funny.

    You can easily defeat all 8 gyms with only Squirtle (skipping all non-mandatory trainers as well), use a Masterball on Zapdos, and defeat the E4 in under 3 hours. I've done so. The only tricky gym is Lt. Surge, but once you get to level 28 (it's been awhile) I think it is (which happens naturally if you go the right path), you outspeed Raichu and can Dig to victory.
  25. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
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    Pretty sure the tier list does not count 'solo the game by itself'.

    That's not mentioning how Nidoking probably does it better
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