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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Mekkah, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. CrazyCarl

    CrazyCarl

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    Nidoking does not do it better. Squirtle is the fastest.

    And if I can have a Pokemon that I get as a starter cover the entire game without any help needed other than a couple of E4 pokemon (mostly for efficiency's sake), how exactly is that not a positive trait when considering in-game tiers?

    It gets an A in every category, as well as an A++ ubergod grade in Matchups, since he doesn't even need any support (which is the point that you said doesn't matter, which doesn't make sense).

    -Availability: Can you get them early on and are they easy to get?
    -Stats: Do they have a usable stat distribution?
    -Movepool: Do they have a good movepool that needs little TM support? (By that I mean hard to replace TMs such as ones you get from gyms.)
    -Power: Are they strong enough to sweep through enemies without taking too much damage in return?
    -Type: Do they have useful STABs and resistances?
    -Match-ups: Do they fare well in gym and/or boss battles?
  2. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Pretty sure Seel was in Top Tier because of the X Speed + Horn Drill strategy and it being a good user of it along with having good stats. There's also the fact you can get a free one in Cinnabar Island via trade.
  3. CrazyCarl

    CrazyCarl

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    I guess, but the availability should definitely knock it down IMO. :/

    I'd give it a "D".
  4. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I've soloed the game with fricken Pikachu before, its actually easier that way because you are overleveled.
  5. Zowayix

    Zowayix

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    The article assumes you are attempting to beat the game as fast as possible in real time, using a team of around 4 Pokemon. If you do this, then Seel indeed deserves its Top Tier mention, as it comes at just the right time to blast through the last ~25% of the game almost faster than anything else.

    It's about the same reason Zapdos is Top. They come late, but at just the right time to give you the help you need.
  6. CrazyCarl

    CrazyCarl

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    My Blastoise was actually leveled appropriately for most of the game since I skipped every trainer and wild encounter that I could, although it was certainly a bit overlevelled for some of the early gyms.

    The point isn't that I leveled my Blastoise up so strong that he just owned everything. I skipped every single battle I could, and he still destroyed everything. At slightly overleveled to regular levels.

    He could sweep every gym for most people in a regular game of 3-4 Pokemon too using Bite, Bubblebeam, then Dig, then Ice Beam, Surf, etc. etc. Or if you want, he can just do it all by himself. Either way, the fact that he destroys every gym other than Lt. Surge which is still very do-able with dig, and also Bruno, Agatha, Lance, and half of Blue's team, available from the start, is more than you can say for any other Pokemon IMO.
  7. Garud

    Garud

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    Ok, go read the rest of the thread. Seriously, this thread is the highest quality tier list in this forum. The write-ups are detailed, everything is discussed and cross-checked and we all play test to make sure. So if we all thought that something needed a tier to itself, we would have done that by now.

    In addition, everything in top tier is top tier for a reason. The Nidos are top because they evolve obscenely early and they learn great moves. Abra is top because it is the best Psychic in the game, having amazing power and evolving obscenely early as well. Squirtle might be slightly better than some of the top tiers, but it is not better than all of them.

    And this is coming from someone who completed a speed run with him that was close to the record.
  8. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I did some more revamps.

    Magnemite (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Magnemite - Mid Tier
    -Availability: In RB, you can find it in the Power Plant. Wild Magnemite are at a rather low level, but Magneton can be caught at up to level 35 so they require less catch-up time. In Yellow it arrives as early as Route 10 (outside the Power Plant). It will require a bit of grinding (it is level 22 at its highest) but it isn't too hard for it to catch up.
    -Stats: Magnemite and Magneton have high Special stats, with Magneton carrying up to 120 Special. This is supported by good 50/95/120 bulk. Magnemite is a tad slow (45 Speed) but Magneton is just fast enough to work well (70 Speed).
    -Movepool: Magneton has a terrible level-up movepool. In fact, you absolutely NEED to give this Thunderbolt for it to be worthwhile. If not, you’ll be using Thundershock for a while until you get the unreliable Thunder. Of course, since Magnemite is probably going to be the only Electric type on the team it only has to compete for Thunderbolt with non-Electrics looking for additional coverage, so Magnemite will likely receive this move just fine.
    -Power: Magneton’s Thunderbolt allows it to OHKO almost anything that doesn’t resist it. Magneton will power through many trainers with ease. However, due to mono-Electric coverage it struggles against Ground types (particularly Rock/Ground types), Grass types and opposing Electric types (the latter 2 groups can survive Thunderbolt and hit back with paralysis).
    -Type: Electric gives plenty of coverage, and is particularly powerful against the Water types that appear late game, although the things that resist it appear frequently throughout the game too, lowering its power a bit. Electric isn’t particularly useful defensively. Flying resistance is unnecessary because all the birds are OHKOed, and Electric resistance isn’t helpful because opposing Electric types resist your main attack anyway.
    -Match-ups: Erika – You don’t do well here. Her Pokémon take Thunderbolt and hit back with whatever they want.
    Koga – RB Koga is a joke. Thunderbolt is strong enough to sweep him. In Yellow, Magneton really benefits from having a high Special, which allows it to take Psychic.
    Sabrina – You have 120 Special so you can take a few hits. Thunder Wave is very useful here, so even if you faint you can at least slow down Alakazam for your teammates.
    Blaine – No type advantage, but you can win if you have a sufficient level. This is notably easier in RB due to the worse team he has there.
    Giovanni – You are quite hopeless here. In Yellow you can at least beat Persian, but everything else walls you.
    Lorelei – This is a great match-up because Thunderbolt eats most of her team alive. It is evenly matched with Jynx, but watch out for Lovely Kiss in Yellow.
    Bruno – You should beat his fighting types, but you should use something else for Onix.
    Agatha – Golbat and Arbok should not be a problem to beat. Gengar and Haunter may outspeed and try to confuse and sleep you though.
    Lance – You beat Gyarados and Aerodactyl. Dragonair resists Thunderbolt though you may be able to beat them just because they suck so much. Dragonite is beatable unless you have been weakened.
    Blue – You beat Pidgeot, Gyarados, Charizard, Blastoise, Cloyster and Vaporeon, and you should be able to take on Alakazam, Arcanine and Ninetales too.
    -Additional Comments: Magneton packs incredible power. However, it is severely let down by its necessity for Thunderbolt. If you have it reserved for something else then Magneton is less useful. It also requires support to get around anything that resists Thunderbolt, lowering its killing potential. If you can get around these issues then it is a good choice that will contribute to beating the game efficiently.


    Hitmonchan (open)
    [​IMG]
    -Hitmonchan - Low Tier
    -Availability: You can get this as soon as you get to Celadon by heading to Saffron straight away and fighting through the Dojo. This involves taking on some high-levelled Fighting Pokemon (relative to your current team) but it is actually pretty easy if you have the right Pokemon on your team. The great thing is that Hitmonchan comes at level 30, so you can pretty much slap it on to your team without grinding.
    -Stats: 105 Attack is pretty good and it has a decent enough speed for in-game purposes (76). Its Special is horrible though (35), which is a shame given its movepool. Compared to Hitmonlee, it has less power and is slower. In exchange, it can take physical hits better, although it is still frail.
    -Movepool: Hitmonchan is a case of a Pokémon who has a movepool that doesn’t match its stats. It is the only Pokémon with all 3 elemental punches, but 35 Special makes these completely useless. It has no STAB moves by level up and this leaves it completely TM dependent. It does get its STAB move, Submission, from Celadon and while it has good power it is a horrible move thanks to terrible accuracy and recoil. It gets Body Slam, Mega Punch and Double-Edge to pick from as its normal moves, all of which are powerful enough for that point in the game. Body Slam is the best choice for reliability but it may not be available. It gets Strength later though which is a reasonable substitute.
    -Power: Hitmonchan starts off well, but it doesn't take long for it to start lagging. Submission may seem powerful but it is commonly resisted, misses frequently, and has recoil that chips into Hitmonchan's already low HP. Its only other moves are Normal, and Hitmonchan just doesn't have enough power to rely on these, especially given how frail it is.
    -Type: Submission is its only real STAB and be obtained by TM as soon as you get Hitmonchan, and although it has great power it is inaccurate and deals recoil (which is bad for Hitmonchan’s poor HP stat). Fighting is a bad defensive type overall. Flying and Psychic attacks are common in this game are fairly common, which hurts Hitmonchan as a viable choice.
    -Match-ups: Erika – Neutral overall, but it isn’t particularly useful. Her Pokémon can take hits and can strike back with a status move, or just hit hard with a special attack.
    Koga – In RB, his Pokémon are bulky, resist Fighting and can poison you. In Yellow he gets screwed over by Psychic, though he might take down a Venonat.
    Sabrina – This is a terrible match-up because Hitmonchan dies in a heartbeat to Psychic.
    Blaine – Hitmonchan is crippled by its poor Special. Flamethrower and Fire Blast do tons of damage to it, making it a mediocre choice at best for this battle.
    Giovanni – Dugtrio and Persian can be beaten due to frailty. Nidoqueen and Nidoking are tougher, particularly in Yellow where they have Thunder. Rhyhorn and Rhydon are weak to Submission. This is one of Hitmonchan's better match-ups, even though a complete sweep probably isn't on the cards.
    Lorelei – Submission is super-effective against Ice, but it still doesn’t do that well. Submission is so risky and those Ice and Water attacks will hurt, as does Psychic.
    Bruno – Mirror Match, except for his Onix who you can beat with Submission.
    Agatha – Holy crap you are awful here. Gengar and Haunter are IMMUNE TO ALL OF YOUR PHYSICAL MOVES! None of the elemental punches are going to help you win and unless you are using Seismic Toss you can't actually do anything to them. Arbok and Golbat resist fighting but might be beaten with whatever normal move you have. You will probably get statused though.
    Lance – In RB you might beat Aerodactyl, Dragonair or Dragonite because their movesets suck, but Gyarados has Hydro Pump. In Yellow things are tougher because everything except Aerodactyl has special attacks, and Aerodactyl has Fly anyway.
    Blue – You stand a chance against Rhydon, Exeggutor and Sandslash, but everything else is a risky match-up due to special/super-effective moves within their movesets.
    -Additional Comments: Hitmonchan is worth a brief look in the short-term because it arrives at a good level and can hold its own for a little while, but it became quite poor in the long run. Its horrible movepool, lack of reliable STAB, terrible match-ups during key battles and that awful Special really work against Hitmonchan.


    Comment if you want to.

    I was doing these revamps in the order I made the analyses originally. The next one is Poliwag, but I'm going to leave that for now until I figure out what I want to do with it. At some point I'll probably test out Amnesia. If it works out well then I'll split Poliwag into High (Yellow) and Mid (RB). If it's not worth it then Poliwag will stay Mid. Either way, I'll probably need to revamp it and talk about Amnesia a bit more, but I won't until I sort out which tier/s it will be in.

    Growlithe is probably next up.

    Regarding this Squirtle talk, I think that if someonee were to ask me which Pokemon is the best in RBY for in-game runs, I would probably pick RB Squirtle. However, I think putting Squirtle in its own Uber tier is a bit much...
  9. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Revamping Grimer,as the one on Page 1 is really...um...misleading.

    Grimer-Low
    Availability: He's found in Pokemon Mansion, though he's easier to find in Blue and Yellow. It should be noted that you can also catch fully evolved Muk there, too.
    Stats: 105 HP and 105 Attack is very nice, but base 65 Special is terrible. 65 Speed is usually enough to outspeed most things in-game, so it's not entirely terrible in that respect.
    Movepool: If he doesn't have Sludge yet, he'll have it in a couple levels. Aside from that, he gets Thunder, which no one really wants anyway, and does decent damage off his Base 65 SpAtk stat, I guess. He also gets Acid Armor, which makes him a better defensive Pokemon than Weezing against stuff like Fighting types and can even contend with Ground types barring crits. He gets Body Slam as well, and can make good use of it, but you've probably already given that TM to someone else...
    Power: Grimer's terrible, but Muk's alright thanks to that good Attack stat. Poor speed blows, and a movepool filled with special attacks isn't helping it. It literally has like three physical attacks to choose from; Sludge, Body Slam, and Hyper Beam. If it had a better Special stat, it'd probably be able to use some of those TMs more efficiently...on the plus side, Mega Drain hits Rock/Ground types hard
    Typing: You've passed the point where there were a bunch of Grass, Bug and Fighting types, so Poison's kind of a meh typing. It also kinda sucks that Psychic types are in God tier,
    Matchups:
    Blaine- Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash can be taken out by Muk because they lack any decent Fire moves (other than Fire Spin, I guess...) Arcanine packs Fire Blast, so don't even try against him. In Yellow, the only thing you can take out is Rapidash.
    Giovanni- Nidoqueen and Nidoking pack terrible moves in Red and Blue (they don't have a single Ground type move), so you're safe against them. You also beat Rhyhorn and Rhydon with Mega Drain because of their atrocious Special Stat and your high defenses. Be careful though, Rhydon has Fissure. In Yellow, the only thing you can kill is Persian.
    Lorelei- Can't really hurt her Pokemon at all thanks to Muk's low Special and her Pokemon's high defensive stats.
    Bruno- Muk beats all three Fighting types and can take out his Onix duo with Mega Drain.
    Agatha- Everyone on her team resists Sludge and are immune to Normal type moves. They also pack high Special stats, so I'm not seeing a Muk victory here. Not to mention one of the Gengars packs Psychic.
    Lance- Muk can beat the Dragonairs and Dragonite because the AI is an idiot and always spams Agility when it's out. Gyarados and Aerodacytl hit too hard, though.
    Rival- His Exeggutor is garbage and only has three moves (none of which are any good), so Muk beats that one. Pidgeot's also garbage and Arcanine has a garbage movepool, though Ember still hurts a bit. Again, Rhydon dies to any Special Attack, so Muk's Mega Drain kills it. In Yellow the only thing you can kill is Exeggutor.
    Additional Comments: Muk's not bad, he's just disadvantaged. He only has one good moveset; Sludge, Mega Drain, Body Slam, Toxic. He's also disadvantaged in having a low Special in a game where Special is everything. Add to the fact that he has the worst type in the game...yeah, not seeing the appeal here. He's a decent check to Lance, and does better against Giovanni than one would expect. His biggest flaw is that low Special Stat, meaning that Mega Drain really is a move he wants so he can at least butcher the random Onix or Rhydon.

    Frankly, I /could/ see it in Mid, but a very low Mid.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Can't Muk beat Lance's Gyarados and Aerodactyl with Thunder?

    Also, on Squirtle, its top tier for sure but I wont say it outclasses the other top tier Pokemon. Even with Dig and Ice Beam, mine struggled with Raichu and Vileplume. Also, in the E4 it couldn't exactly "plow" through Lorelei's team, Gyarados, or Venusaur.
  11. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    I'm fairly certain that a Hydro Pump from Gen 1 Gyarados would flatten Muk, but on the other hand, Muk could flatten Gyarados with Thunder thanks to quad weakness. Aerodactyl...remind me, does it have Agility? If it does, then Muk beats it handily.

    As for Squirtle, it kinda has a shit period the whole time it's a Wartortle. It probably doesn't help that Raichu and Erika exist. Squirtle is benefitted from its Water typing (lolnothing uses Electric moves and Grass types kinda suck in Gen 1 thanks to shitty AI), but it's certainly not the top of Top Tier. That goes to Abra, who only takes a couple of levels to dominate the entire game.

    Or you could always get a Vaporeon. Vaporeon can wreck the game just as well.
  12. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Aerodactyl has Hyper Beam/Take-Down/Bite/Supersonic in RBY and Wing Attack/Fly/Swift/Hyper Beam in Yellow. Also, Dragonair and Dragonite will actually attack Muk in Yellow version, so keep that in mind.
  13. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    I could have sworn I put that in the post...about the Dragons I mean. Oh well~ That's what the Edit button's for. I'm not entirely sure how well Muk can take Hyper Beam, but I'm willing to give it a shot
  14. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Actually, there is one great strategy I've used repeatedly for grinding up a grass type-- and you can use it to grind up a grass type and charmander too. (Though I usually use it to get Kadabra, not help Charmander)

    First, make sure your Oddish/Belsprout/Bulbasaur is at least level 12 (it needs to be able to beat Misty's Staryu). Deposit all your other Pokemon except the grass type (+abra/charmander). Use up ALL your money on potions, repels, status healing items, pokeballs, and whatever else you could want. One trick here is to NOT sell the Nuggets-- hold onto these investments until after Misty.

    Now, you have 0 cash (so nothing to lose from losing), and you just fight Misty again, and again, and again. Each time, your grass type will gain massive experience from beating Staryu-- little hastle, high experience/battle. Bringing abra/charmander just means splitting experience. Eventually, you'll get to the point where your grass type is stronger than Starmie, and then you just beat the gym, and come out with 1 (or 2) new party members completely brought-up-to-speed level-wise.

    And they didn't even suck up any experience from other trainer battles. In terms of securing the win against Misty without needing to go through painful grinding, sucking up resources for other Pokemon, and potentially bring up another poke too-- I think this is the most effective way.

    Sell your nuggets and you'll be sitting on more than enough cash for your needs too.
  15. Longfellow

    Longfellow

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    If you're running Grass, Abra, and Charmander, you can beat Staryu with Charmander/Abra, Twave and maybe Seismic Toss Starmie with Abra, get at least one Dig with Charmander, and then finish with the Grass. You need some luck but it is a legitimate low-level way to beat Starmie with a Charmander team.

    Anything that can paralyze Starmie sets Charmander up for a Dig/Mega Punch/Bslam. Also Charmander isn't that bad against Staryu. I don't remember at what level he beats Staryu in the head-to-head, but keeping certain teammates healthy for Starmie can be important (iirc low-level Clefable barely survives Bubblebeam so it needs to come in at 100% EDIT: this is not true at all, Clefable survives several Bubblebeams).

    I agree that for the kind of run we're talking about, Abra is the best Pokémon in the game.

    Holding the starters in such high esteem is a holdover from earlier discussions where it was determined that the most "efficient" runs have one of them or Nidoran soloing the game. Now that we're talking more about how much each Pokémon contributes to a full, even team at a brisk, but not speedrun-like, pace, we should maybe move the starters down. I don't think Bulbasaur belongs in top tier, for instance.

    As for SAILOR the Seel, it is the best late-game water and is at least comparable to Articuno and Jynx. Whether that means top tier probably depends on how valuable you think late-game waters are in general.
  16. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Nah, Bulbasaur only really struggled against Sabrina, Blaine, and Agatha when I used it (and kinda half and half against Koga/Lorelei). Other than that it swept the first 4 gyms, Giovanni, Bruno, and Lance.
  17. Chou Toshio

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    Longfellow-- the point is not to beat starmie; the point is to LOSE to starmie and just mine EXP by beating Staryu over and over :S You might even do your best to let Starmie win until Staryu stops giving you worthwhile exp.
  18. Longfellow

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    Hemp Man: That's not actually impressive though. The only hard bosses he beats are Misty and Lance; he struggles with crucial boss fights like Sabrina and various Rivals and he struggles with a majority of common trainers before you get Razor Leaf/Body Slam. Mt. Moon in particular is hell. I see Bulbasaur as filling a narrow role in early-game, plodding along averagely through mid-game, having a brief excellent stint in the water routes, and then being outclassed by late-game waters in end-game. I dunno, maybe Sleep Powder makes a difference.

    But besides Misty I don't think there's any area of the game where Bulbasaur shines the way other top tiers do.

    Chou Toshio: I know, but beating Starmie is superior to grinding against her. I'm just saying the possibility is there.
  19. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    We already had a "is Bulbasaur High or Top?" discussion about 6 months ago in this thread. I originally argued for High (I actually made many of the same points you made) but almost everyone disagreed so I backed down to avoid dragging it out. I could have kept arguing if I wanted but I didn't want to because we would have ended up with a similar situation to Scraggy in BW2 (where the High vs. Top argument went on and on for at least 5 pages and the project was slowed down because nothing else got discussed).

    Bulbasaur will be Top for as long as people think that Misty is a large enough threat to justify it. It will be almost impossible to convince people otherwise.
  20. Longfellow

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    If Misty is that important, Bellsprout should be High tier and Clefable should be Top...
  21. Hemp Man

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    Actually I wouldn't mind Bellsprout should be High Tier myself as the Body Slam/Sleep Powder/Mega Drain/Growth set was effective for me when I used it. Although if you are talking just about the Misty battle, Bellsprout would actually need to be babied up a bit which Bulbasaur would not. I think the highest to you can catch one is at Level 16, where as I usually have Ivysaur before I even enter Cerulean City.
  22. Longfellow

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    Bulbasaur and Bellsprout should not be two tiers apart, at least. Bulbasaur's clearly better but not profoundly so.

    Really, though, Misty by herself isn't that important. She is one of the game's harder bosses but she is only one battle—a battle you can significantly soften by saving her till after Bill or S.S. Anne.
  23. Chou Toshio

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    O.o You're going to beat her eventually; you're going to beat Starmie eventually and get its EXP eventually regardless. You might as well abuse her for EXP before beating her.

    abra / grass-type / charmander are gonna need grinding around this area anyway to catch up to the rest of the team; I just suggested up one method to do it that doesn't take millions of battles against wild Pokemon
  24. Hemp Man

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    Is Kadabra even that good against Misty? I mean, Starmie does resist Confusion after all.
  25. TM13IceBeam

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    No, but if my assumption is correct, I'm pretty sure you're still supposed to use your grass-type to beat Starmie. Having free EXP from leading/switching against Staryu repeatedly is fast enough to grind it.
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