Other Pokemon: Smogon Version OU [Route 4]

[GoldNinja]

Pokemon Proposal:
Location: Forest Grass
Pokemon: Seedot
Level: 4-8
Reasoning: Fits perfectly into the forest environment and eventually will become a Shiftry with access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. In addition to being either Physical or Special, it is also possible to breed Defog onto it (whether that will be an option here, I don't know). Defog can be used to teach players how to get rid of those nasty hazards, and Shiftry's grass typing will encourage a fire water grass core.

 

[SparksBlade]

So many posts and I didn't get an alert! Since I'm on phone I'll only clarify myself to Salemance that about the day care thing someone said they were to be in every town, and coast thing was, uhm, my bad so sorry

 

[blue cheez]

Somewhat related to OP's topic:
For a few years I've been casually working on a sophisticated pokemon AI with a friend.
In layman's terms, the goal was to make an AI that could determine what a player's "best move" is - in a similar way to how computers can determine a player's "best move" in chess (only this time around, the "best move" is a "mixed strategy" - meaning that the "best move" is more like: 30% flamethrower; 70% switch to Gyarados)

Anyway, we have the theory all down - we just need to program it. (And yes we're familiar with Technical Machine - our approach is very different than his) So we're looking into programming it by modding the code of Pokemon Showdown.
And I've been thinking of making my own Showdown single player campaign that teaches players competitive battling, and using the AI to make the game challenging.
I figured I'd share some of the ideas I had with you guys about what I think would make a good competitive game:
1. A completely different story and goal. You're not 10 years old. You do not go and collect 8 gym badges. You don't fight the elite four. A real story, with real characters and real reasons for doing things.
2. Centralized thematic strategies. Your starter encourages building around particular strategy. Ninetales/Tyranitar/Politoed - for example. Resetting the game and replaying should give a unique competitive experience.
3. Leveling occurs in large, discrete intervals in the story. You're pokemon don't level up from 1-100 one level at a time. All pokemon you interact with are level 5 to begin with. Then after beating a "gym leader" or reaching some part of the story, all pokemon you interact with are now level 15. The issue with pokemon as a competitive experience is that grinding /always/ trumps strategy. A ten-year-old's Mt. Moon-grinded, level-100 charizard IS going to beat the first gym leader - no matter how fancy you make his strategy. By eliminating the necessity of grinding, you allow players to play around with all of their options and really consider legitimate strategies.
4. All battles are challenging. No more fighting Fisher Bob with 3 Magikarps. Any trainers will at least have an attempt at a team strategy and will have 6 pokemon of your level.
5. Some parts of the game focus on team-building strategy, other parts focus on proper battling technique. Meaning that at some important battles in the story - your team is predetermined, both to ensure a proper battling experience where you MUST use the correct moves and also to ensure a more dramatic cinematic experience.
6. IVs are always optimized. EVs are changeable with a slider and are actively discussed and explained in the story.
7. More options than tackle/growl for the first quarter of the game. While the game will certainly start simpler and build from there, there should be more options available than boring normal type attacks. Encore, swords dance, rest, will'o'wisp, confuse ray are all good starting move options that should be available.

One other optional idea would be to make a pokemon nuzlocke roguelike. A silly story with a very large number of badges. It still has all the components listed above, but this time around you have limited pokeballs and your pokemon die when they are killed. The focus would be on replayability and giving

I don't mean to steal the thread or anything, but I think there are some big ideas here that people on this thread might be interested in.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Your AI project sounds dope but in regards to your other suggestions I think Smogon Version should stick with the typical pokemon game formula we all know and love.

 

[WebBowser]

Somewhat related to OP's topic:
For a few years I've been casually working on a sophisticated pokemon AI with a friend.
In layman's terms, the goal was to make an AI that could determine what a player's "best move" is - in a similar way to how computers can determine a player's "best move" in chess (only this time around, the "best move" is a "mixed strategy" - meaning that the "best move" is more like: 30% flamethrower; 70% switch to Gyarados)

Anyway, we have the theory all down - we just need to program it. (And yes we're familiar with Technical Machine - our approach is very different than his) So we're looking into programming it by modding the code of Pokemon Showdown.
And I've been thinking of making my own Showdown single player campaign that teaches players competitive battling, and using the AI to make the game challenging.
I figured I'd share some of the ideas I had with you guys about what I think would make a good competitive game:
1. A completely different story and goal. You're not 10 years old. You do not go and collect 8 gym badges. You don't fight the elite four. A real story, with real characters and real reasons for doing things.
2. Centralized thematic strategies. Your starter encourages building around particular strategy. Ninetales/Tyranitar/Politoed - for example. Resetting the game and replaying should give a unique competitive experience.
3. Leveling occurs in large, discrete intervals in the story. You're pokemon don't level up from 1-100 one level at a time. All pokemon you interact with are level 5 to begin with. Then after beating a "gym leader" or reaching some part of the story, all pokemon you interact with are now level 15. The issue with pokemon as a competitive experience is that grinding /always/ trumps strategy. A ten-year-old's Mt. Moon-grinded, level-100 charizard IS going to beat the first gym leader - no matter how fancy you make his strategy. By eliminating the necessity of grinding, you allow players to play around with all of their options and really consider legitimate strategies.
4. All battles are challenging. No more fighting Fisher Bob with 3 Magikarps. Any trainers will at least have an attempt at a team strategy and will have 6 pokemon of your level.
5. Some parts of the game focus on team-building strategy, other parts focus on proper battling technique. Meaning that at some important battles in the story - your team is predetermined, both to ensure a proper battling experience where you MUST use the correct moves and also to ensure a more dramatic cinematic experience.
6. IVs are always optimized. EVs are changeable with a slider and are actively discussed and explained in the story.
7. More options than tackle/growl for the first quarter of the game. While the game will certainly start simpler and build from there, there should be more options available than boring normal type attacks. Encore, swords dance, rest, will'o'wisp, confuse ray are all good starting move options that should be available.

One other optional idea would be to make a pokemon nuzlocke roguelike. A silly story with a very large number of badges. It still has all the components listed above, but this time around you have limited pokeballs and your pokemon die when they are killed. The focus would be on replayability and giving

I don't mean to steal the thread or anything, but I think there are some big ideas here that people on this thread might be interested in.

Here are my thoughts on your ideas.

To reiterate what magikarp says, your AI project sounds awesome and I would love to hear more, I actually have an interest in AI and game theory and may even be able to help.

Here are my thoughts on the rest of your suggestions.

1. I think we're sticking with a light-hearted affectionate parody of the by now cliche as heck Standard Pokemon Story, sorry.

2. I think we should focus on trying to encourage as diverse number of viable in game strategies as possible as opposed to trying to lock the trainer into a strategy via starter. That's why we chose the starters we did and gave each starter 3 different natures/IV spreads.

3. I actually kind of like this one, and leveling is a topic that got a lot of discussion in this topic. I personally think that if we don't do something like this, we should at least have a level cap.

4. We might have a TLS grunt with 6 magikarps as a mythology gag, but for the most part we are shooting for challenging battles. None of us are proposing 6 mon trainers right off the bat simply due to the logistics of getting 6 mons right off the bat, but you should expect 6 mon trainers much earlier then in your average pokemon game, probably starting with the first gym.

5. Absolute agreement on this one. The first trainer I proposed already attempts to introduce the concept of the FWG core. I believe in these early stages we should focus more on teambuilding and then worry about what moves we are giving to the mons.

6. Agree with the former, but for the latter I just think we should make EV grinding as painless as possible, but not PS painless. I will make sure I introduce some trainers for EV grinding after the first gym.

7. I think for the noob forest and pre gym 1, fewer, simpler options is in fact best. Options lead to strategy, strategy leads to complexity, complexity... leads to suffering leads to discouraged noobs. Lets focus on teambuilding first then give the player more options to play with (this is a big reason why I oppose the route one SR tutor btw, that, bad early distribution(golette op) and SR simply isn't very effective against one, two, or even three mon teams are all pretty big negatives for early SR).

 

[Salemance]

So while we are still getting pokemon submissions and trainers, I was hoping to bring another topic up that sorta is of some big importance.

How do yall think the design of the forest should be? While our usual spriter is out, and really, all you need for a simple dungeon layout is paint for now, what do yall think the forest should be plotted as? How confusing should it be? How many turns do we need to make then take or holes do they drop through? You decide!

...alongside the rest of our discussion of Pokémon and Trainer submissions (still need a bit of those too).

 

[WebBowser]

For the forest proper, I cast my vote for it to be fairly simple. We can have a couple of branching paths for items and stuff, but no Mt. Moon type shenanigans.

While I have already proposed Schoolgirl Jane, I think I will propose another trainer. We already have plenty of mons to work with. Lots of solid water types, venipede, chespin, I think we're alright until the forest proper for mons.

Youngster Jack

Happiny
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Toxic
- Charm

Chespin @ Oran Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 5
Adamant Nature
- Tackle
- Vine Whip

Slowpoke @ Oran Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
Brave Nature
- Yawn
- Curse
- Tackle

Venipede
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
Adamant Nature
- Defense Curl
- Rollout

Pre-battle quote: Once I weaken your team, you will not be able to stop my sweep!
Loss quote: You should have let me weaken you more
Post-battle quote: If all your opponents pokemon are weak and you have a fast, strong mon, you basically win the battle, so make sure you keep your team healthy!

 

[Rosen]

yeah I'm kind of jumping headfirst into this without really reading anything beyond the op but someway, somehow we need to include this fucker:

 

[Hclegend]

For the forest proper, I cast my vote for it to be fairly simple. We can have a couple of branching paths for items and stuff, but no Mt. Moon type shenanigans.

While I have already proposed Schoolgirl Jane, I think I will propose another trainer. We already have plenty of mons to work with. Lots of solid water types, venipede, chespin, I think we're alright until the forest proper for mons.

Youngster Jack

Happiny
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Toxic
- Charm

Chespin @ Oran Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
Level: 5
Adamant Nature
- Tackle
- Vine Whip

Slowpoke @ Oran Berry
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
Brave Nature
- Yawn
- Curse
- Tackle

Venipede
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
Adamant Nature
- Defense Curl
- Rollout

Pre-battle quote: Once I weaken your team, you will not be able to stop my sweep!
Loss quote: You should have let me weaken you more
Post-battle quote: If all your opponents pokemon are weak and you have a fast, strong mon, you basically win the battle, so make sure you keep your team healthy!

The only problem I see with this is that the A.I never switches. Ever. (Outside of the Battle facilities when they actually have some logic, but even then it's as basic as "Havung something choice locked in with my opponent being immune to it")
And it would be kind of early to have status absolutely flying all over the place (Especailly if we can't use items :/)
And two little nitpicks:
I doubt there's any Bullet esque attacks at this point of the game (Inb4 Bullet Seed) so Bulletproof is kinda worthless
And THIS TEAM BREAKS ITEM CLAUSE (oh wait this isn't VGC)
But I do like the idea behind it ^_^

 

[Darth Manaphy]

yeah I'm kind of jumping headfirst into this without really reading anything beyond the op but someway, somehow we need to include this fucker:

We're talking about different Youngsters, but I feel like we need to include Youngster Joey and his top percentage Rattata too. Or maybe...

Trainer Proposal
Youngster Joey Jr.
Rattata (All 31 IVs, Shiny, in a Premier Ball, and Jolly Nature)

Pre-Battle Quote: I think my Rattata might be the top percentage of the top percentage!
Loss Quote: Oh no! Not my Rattata!
Post-Battle Quote: My dad gave me this Rattata and told me to become the top percentage of all possible Pokemon Trainers! You need to lose sometimes in order to learn how to become great!


(If you can't tell this guy is the son of our good friend, Youngster Joey)

 

[Rosen]

We're talking about different Youngsters, but I feel like we need to include Youngster Joey and his top percentage Rattata too. Or maybe...

Trainer Proposal
Youngster Joey Jr.
Rattata (All 31 IVs, Shiny, in a Premier Ball, and Jolly Nature)

Pre-Battle Quote: I think my Rattata might be the top percentage of the top percentage!
Loss Quote: Oh no! Not my Rattata!
Post-Battle Quote: My dad gave me this Rattata and told me to become the top percentage of all possible Pokemon Trainers! You need to lose sometimes in order to learn how to become great!


(If you can't tell this guy is the son of our good friend, Youngster Joey)

Moveset:

-V-Create
-Superpower
-Head Smash
-Giga Impact

Mothafucken S-Tier Rattata

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

How do yall think the design of the forest should be?

It could be designed like Viridian Forest

I think Joey Jr.'s loss quote should be: Oh No! Not my Dad's Rattata

Moveset:

-V-Create
-Superpower
-Head Smash
-Giga Impact

Mothafucken S-Tier Rattata

What about return and earthquake over the last 2 moves.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

But to be more serious with the moveset I was thinking...

-Quick Attack
-Flame Wheel
-Bite
-Tail Whip

To be honest, for a while, our Golett's going to be like a Crutch Character. Most Pokemon we're facing in the beginning are going to have mostly Normal Moves for attacks. Our Golett is going to just wall them. To add on to the "challenge" and "punish" those that are using it too much, Bite exists on this thing. Both Flame Wheel and Bite are Egg moves. (That's why I'm thinking it's a new Rattata. The child of Joey's Rattata)

 

[Salemance]

But to be more serious with the moveset I was thinking...

-Quick Attack
-Flame Wheel
-Bite
-Tail Whip

To be honest, for a while, our Golett's going to be like a Crutch Character. Most Pokemon we're facing in the beginning are going to have mostly Normal Moves for attacks. Our Golett is going to just wall them. To add on to the "challenge" and "punish" those that are using it too much, Bite exists on this thing. Both Flame Wheel and Bite are Egg moves. (That's why I'm thinking it's a new Rattata. The child of Joey's Rattata)

The Modest Klutz Golett crutch.......that sounds funny no matter how you say it.

 

[Rosen]

Eh, I know it's a forest but what KIND of forest? Let's have something besides just pine/oak trees like every other pokemon game ever. My suggestions:

-RAINFORESTS. Shit yeah, burds can swoop down from trees n shit, there could be carnivorous planty stuff (carnivine & mawile, anyone), tree frogs (fucken FROAKIES or poliwags if we decide to be boring,) maybe quicksand and fog and all kinds of neato shit

-BURNED DOWN FOREST. Some little shit and his Charmander burned the forest down because Smokey the Bear doesn't exist in SmogSmog (is that srsly the name of this place) and therefore couldn't tell stupidass little kids not to walk through dry leaves with fire types. Maybe ashy air like that one place in Hoenn (forgot the name) and there could be Torkoal or Aron or Cyndaquil or something, idk, maybe a really depressed Nuzleaf whose mom burned to death because she was a fucking tree

-Forest like Aokigahara, dead bodies everywhere.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

The Modest Klutz Golett crutch.......that sounds funny no matter how you say it.

Well, Crutch characters generally begin sucking starting in the early-mid to mid game. It's not like there's many useful items worth attaching anyways. And Modest Pokemon don't mind when, like MC Hammer, you can't touch it

 

[Salemance]

Eh, I know it's a forest but what KIND of forest? Let's have something besides just pine/oak trees like every other pokemon game ever. My suggestions:

-RAINFORESTS. Shit yeah, burds can swoop down from trees n shit, there could be carnivorous planty stuff (carnivine & mawile, anyone), tree frogs (fucken FROAKIES or poliwags if we decide to be boring,) maybe quicksand and fog and all kinds of neato shit

-BURNED DOWN FOREST. Some little shit and his Charmander burned the forest down because Smokey the Bear doesn't exist in SmogSmog (is that srsly the name of this place) and therefore couldn't tell stupidass little kids not to walk through dry leaves with fire types. Maybe ashy air like that one place in Hoenn (forgot the name) and there could be Torkoal or Aron or Cyndaquil or something, idk, maybe a really depressed Nuzleaf whose mom burned to death because she was a fucking tree

-Forest like Aokigahara, dead bodies everywhere.

Next time ya propose something, cut back on the language bud, and the forest is next to the coast so a rain forest type of theme is certainly possible.

 

[Rosen]

Next time ya propose something, cut back on the language bud, and the forest is next to the coast so a rain forest type of theme is certainly possible.

Wait is there an actual thing in the OP requesting no swearing or...

Because if so how the fuck we gonna turn CTC into an NPC, half his dialogue consists of "nigga"

(has CTC already been proposed because if not this is mandatory)

 

[Salemance]

Wait is there an actual thing in the OP requesting no swearing or...

Because if so how the fuck we gonna turn CTC into an NPC, half his dialogue consists of "nigga"

(has CTC already been proposed because if not this is mandatory)

No, its just me asking ya to tone that down. Also no, we haven't been accepting nominations for people to be put into the game (only person in it that I recall is Cho atm cause he is professor, Zarel as the region's Bill, and that's all I can think of).

 

[FierceDeity1]

We're talking about different Youngsters, but I feel like we need to include Youngster Joey and his top percentage Rattata too. Or maybe...

Trainer Proposal
Youngster Joey Jr.
Rattata (All 31 IVs, Shiny, in a Premier Ball, and Jolly Nature)

Pre-Battle Quote: I think my Rattata might be the top percentage of the top percentage!
Loss Quote: Oh no! Not my Rattata!
Post-Battle Quote: My dad gave me this Rattata and told me to become the top percentage of all possible Pokemon Trainers! You need to lose sometimes in order to learn how to become great!


(If you can't tell this guy is the son of our good friend, Youngster Joey)

I would rather Joey come back late in Victory Road with the classic FEAR set.

 

[Anduril]

I would rather Joey come back late in Victory Road with the classic FEAR set.

It can be Joey senior, as the Joey right now is Joey jr., but I like the idea

 

[Darth Manaphy]

It can be Joey senior, as the Joey right now is Joey jr., but I like the idea

That's just what I was thinking there.

 

[Rosen]

in the OP it says you can request whomever you want for an NPC, just can't be yourself.

Anyway, my other posts were more ideas than actual proposals, so:

NPC PROPOSAL:

NPC: CTC

Sprite Design:

Summary: Since CTC is known around Smogon primarily for his teambuilding mastery and fluentness in niggaspeak, I propose that rather than CTC be a Gym Leader or Elite 4 member or what have you, that he be an in-game tutor appearing sometime before the Elite 4, perhaps right before victory road. You stumble upon a Chansey with rather large nostrils, a dirty moustache, and eerily prominent lips and eyebrows passed out in front of the entrance with a dollar bill in one hand, a blunt dangling his mouth, and a white, powdery substance lining his nostrils. You interact with this thing, at which point he promptly jerks up flailing a switchblade he pulled from his pouch. After settling down, you learn this creatures name, "CTC," at which point he inquires about what a yun nigga like your cracker ass done thinking bout challenging the elite 4 when your team is such pure and utter aids. At this point, CTC taps out the blunt, puts it back in his pouch, then proceeds to educate you on various playstyles and proper teambuilding, at the end of which he compliments you on being alright for a yun nigga and informs you that he can be found in the dumpster behind the nearest pokemon center and will be available for consulting any time you need teambuilding advice.

Script: Idk, CTC what sounds good to you

 

[Gr3gory]

About the forest, it should be temperate. The trees are dedicious with the exception of a few, tall evergreens that can host encounterable pokemon like heracross via headbutt or tackle. The design should be simple with many trainers, that are bug catchers with heracross/pinsir/other viable bugs.

 

[WebBowser]

Hclegend Item Clause has never been a thing for the in-game story of any pokemon game, and Smogon is quite against item clause due to the fact that it needlessly constricts teambuilding, I see no reason why that should be a concern.

As for the AI never switching in a pokemon game, normally that is true. HOWEVER, the purpose of this game is to teach players about competitive singles. For this to succeed, we need intelligent AI, at least in theory. Switching is far too important of a concept to be ignored if we seriously want to teach players about competitive singles. I say that for the purposes of this thread, the AI is as intelligent as we need it to be without being omniscient. Obviously, actual implementation may derail a few teams, but that is not our concern.

As for the concern of status flying around everywhere in this team, someone already proposed slowpoke as a wild mon, who has yawn as a starting move. Poison is usually among the first status conditions a player will see, and happiny's level up movepool is utter garbage, so toxic happiny will be no problem. The only super annoying thing I see here is the fact that happiny is running restcure, which may be difficult for a new player to deal with. I'm not entirely sure how good happ's phys bulk is without the investment. If you think it'll be a problem, change the nature, lower the level, or just remove rest.

@Folks who are worried about golette being op

There is no excuse for any trainer being golette weak at any point of this game. We have provided plenty of early pokemon like shroomrish, azurill, and any of the countless water types proposed in the past two pages. If you make a trainer that is hard walled by golette, the trainer sucks, add a mon. Neither of the trainers I proposed are at any risk of losing to golette (the former has azurill and shroomrish, the latter can toxic stall him or have chespin own him). The exception ofc is the first TLS grunt with his moody bidoof, and pretty much ONLY the first TLS grunt (the second one when he shows up requires at least moody bibarel). I do not think we should care if golette happens to wall the occasional wild mon, that's normal for any ghost type at any part of the game.

Rosenfeldius As for the forest type, I'm going to say we go with Coniferous myself. We're pretty far up north, so pine trees make sense. We can have the burned down forest later. I dislike the idea of an undead forest, and frankly trenevant sucks, yet would be a requirement thematically if such a forest were to exist, so I'm going to say no to that. As for the NPC, meh, I'd rather have teambuilding tips spread out throughout the SmogSmog region as opposed to having a one stop shop for it. Lastly, some folks, including myself have found your excessive language to be rather abrasive. While there certainly is no ban of language on Smogon or in this game, there is a line between casual swearing and being an abrasive jerkass. Try to stick with the former as much as possible.

Youngster Joey

I propose we have him shortly after the first gym, with his top tier rattata in tow.

Rattata @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 20
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Crunch
- Quick Attack
- Reversal

This is pretty much the best rattata set you can legally have in the game. I think level 20 is the appropriate level for a single mon team shortly after the first gym. If you think the high BP moves are a bit much, remember, it's a lone rattata, he's not going to 6-0 any teams any time soon. This guy will help teach players not to allow their entire team to get trashed by a lone, probably op sweeper, while still having the reference that is required for this game.

And do not worry, I will propose shorts guy when I run out of good early battling tips if nobody beats me to it.

*edit*

FRICK! I didn't mean to actually tag you joey. Please ignore that.