Serious Political Correctness and Race

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TheValkyries

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Trying to imply racism as imagined because certain things aren't racist in other countries isn't discussion in the first place. The fact that it's been brought up MULTIPLE TIMES that different countries have different contexts and that point is still being used is fucking infuriating. And now you want to basically tone police because it "doesn't further discussion" yet continually ignoren the complete failure to actually have any discussion in good faith at all in this thread and many others.

Man I've already made this post IN THIS THREAD. For the love of everything please please please try and actually have a discussion rather than defend ludicrous bullshit comparisons that have been rebutted to just fly through.

All of these things have historica contexts please try and keep that in mind instead of talking only about how things are now and judging it with no mindfulness or awareness to history.
 
It's individual analysis in the face of a systemic problem that's precisely the jig. Everyone is culpable and responsible but that doesn't make them bad humans. But racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/classism all have always been viewed/treated as an individual disease that rots a person to their core. For some reason they not only fail to but refuse to parse that simple reality that we SJWs and pc police are talking about things bigger than individual shit.

You are advocating for collectivism. You are advocating for the "analyses" and opinions of the individual to be cast aside in the name of your brand of the perceived greater good. Do I need to explain why this is inherently anti-democratic and authoritarian? Do I need to explain how, when you make the individual's rights irrelevant in the face of the collective, you make it permissible to do anything to that individual so long as it's in the name of the "greater good"? Do I need to explain why this goes against virtually every principle modern Western society was built upon? Do I need to explain how collectivist systems universally lead to massive human rights infringements, without a single exception in the book? How about how it's inherently illiberal (and judging from your other posts, I assume you consider yourself a liberal)?

Well, I'm going to anyways. I will confess you've backed me into a corner here because I've never actually had to defend individualism before. Usually people aren't so proud of being a conformist, but nonetheless, what are principles if you can't defend them? At least I can check "militant conformity" off on the list of shit I've seen on the internet.

Okay, so first on the table, is collectivism inherently anti-democratic and authoritarian? Let me start out by answering... No, at least to the first part, in principle. Democracy and collectivism are actually not mutually incompatible, but the particular brand of collectivism you are advocating for where opinions you deem as hateful or harmful are dismissed is inherently undemocratic. Do you believe people who advocate against, say, homosexuality should be allowed to express those opinions? Should they be allowed to express them in a public setting? If not, why not? What makes their opinions more or less valuable than yours? I agree they're subjectively worse than yours, but then again I'm not the one advocating against their analyses or whatever. Can you make an argument for why they shouldn't be allowed to express those opinions that can't also be applied to your opinions? Furthermore, while collectivism may technically be compatible with democracy it is also inherently authoritarian. If the individual as an individual has no rights, then power must lie exclusively with the government. You could not find me a better definition of authoritarianism anywhere. There's a reason why other systems you hate so much, and rightly so, (fascism, Nazism, etc.) all seek to abolish the individual's rights, and that's where we get to the second part of what I wish to talk about.

Collectivism, like all other authoritarian ideologies, inherently degrades the value of the individual and makes it permissible to do anything to them so long as it can be framed as being done "for the greater good". We've seen countless examples of this throughout history, but unfortunately I can't mention them specifically because a certain someone would somehow think I'm accusing you of being a communist or something, so instead I guess I'll talk about how this process works. Authoritarian systems universally seek to take as much power from the individual citizen and give it to the authority or authority body that governs said authoritarian system. This is why the first thing to go in an authoritarian system is usually personal or individual rights, because if the individual has no rights, than the individual has no defense if the government wishes to persecute or prosecute them for dissent. There is absolutely nothing the authority can't do to them or force them to do, because what recourse do they have? In a collectivist system, the authority is the collective greater good of society, but here's where we run into the first snare; who interprets what the greater good of society is? In a democratic collectivist system (which, it could be argued, most democracies are collectivist to at least some minor extent) that is determined by the common will of the people, in other words a vote or ballot of some kind. However, I imagine that isn't the kind of system you're advocating for, because guess what? The will of the people elected Donald fucking Trump, the complete antithesis to who you are and what you stand for as a person (and I won't defend him either right now, I find him to be no better than a collectivist). So I'd imagine (and I apologize for making a bit of an assumption here) you think that in this case the common will of the people is wrong. Is that a fair assessment? If that is a fair assessment, on what grounds are you making that argument (again, that can't also be applied to your own position)? If the will of the people can be ignored in favor of what you see as the collective greater good, have we not already begun to erode the rights of the individual? Have we not already begun to say that the individual can be ignored in the favor of the collective?

The third part of my argument, that collectivism goes against the principles of western society, should be fairly cut-and-dry because anyone who's taken a first look at the U.S. constitution already knows it to be true. I live in America so I'll take an American-centric point of view for a bit. America was founded on the basic principles of individual liberty and unalienable rights as can be clearly evidenced no better than by reading the founding documents of our country. Individual rights are entrenched in our constitution for a reason; because they protect the minority from the whims of the majority. If the majority of the country decides they want to suppress the rights of the minority, then the minority already has the constitution to defend themselves with. This is why both liberals and conservatives alike have so staunchly and rigorously defended the constitution throughout American history. It is why I defend the second amendment despite the fact that I hate guns and would greatly prefer if they had never existed in the first place, and despite the fact and I actually disagree with it on principle, because if I don't defend the second amendment, why should any of the others fare any better? As a nation the people must have certain rights that the government (or the collective) simply cannot touch to protect themselves from tyranny.

The fourth part of my argument, that collectivism has historically always led to automatic human rights violations, is quite tough to argue for without mentioning any of the three things I promised not to mention earlier. In addition, I believe collectivism is dangerous in a vacuum. That is to say, even if you removed the historical context of collectivism, I believe it would still be a harmful political philosophy. So, for the time being, we'll actually discard that argument.

Now we get to the last point I'd like to talk about; that collectivism is inherently illiberal, and I suspect this will be the one that irks you the most, being as you identify as a liberal yourself if I am not mistaken. The very definition of liberalism is "a political philosophy founded on the ideas of liberty and equality". I suspect you believe that what you are advocating for would lead to social equality (although I don't agree it would, we'll put that aside for now), but can you honestly say, despite everything I've just talked about, that collectivism is compatible with liberty? Have freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and freedom of expression on an individual citizen's level not traditionally always been liberal issues?

It's somewhat ironic to me that collectivists argue against their own right as an individual to have a politically relevant opinion. It is a catch-22, a self-defeating philosophy, in a way. Furthermore, what makes you think that the collective will agree with you? What makes you think that the people you stand against won't rise up, seize power, and turn the very system you wish to create against you?

Now, I suspect I know exactly where this discussion is going to go next, so I'm going to preempt it. Even if you say that I'm misrepresenting you and you aren't advocating for collectivism (although, given your post, I struggle to see how this is the case), I'm going to put forth the argument that political correctness is itself inherently collectivist. Firstly, let's take a look at the definition of political correctness. The most charitable definition I could find is as follows:

": Conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated"

So why is this collectivist, in case it wasn't already obvious? It seeks to restrict or remove the right of the individual to say things that could be perceived to offend a collective group. I don't really think I need to say anything more, do I?
 
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vonFiedler

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Now that you're only making one leap in logic, I'll bite. Why do you see collectivism vs. individualism as black and white? Why does an attempt to look at a bigger picture somehow negate individualism? To me, that just seems like willfully choosing not use all of your resources because limiting them suits your narrative more.

And given how little you have to go on for jumping on Valk over "collectivism", you're basically inviting everyone to do the same to you anytime you facts and figures that point to a large group of people. Maybe you've never actually done this, but you probably aught to.
 
Now that you're only making one leap in logic, I'll bite. Why do you see collectivism vs. individualism as black and white? Why does an attempt to look at a bigger picture somehow negate individualism? To me, that just seems like willfully choosing not use all of your resources because limiting them suits your narrative more.
The definition of collectivism is "the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it." Do I actually have to explain how that negates individualism?

And given how little you have to go on for jumping on Valk over "collectivism", you're basically inviting everyone to do the same to you anytime you facts and figures that point to a large group of people. Maybe you've never actually done this, but you probably aught to.
If I ever do advocate that individual rights should be ignored in the favor of the collective, by all means please jump all over me, because I'll be wrong.

Also citing facts and figures (I assume that's what you meant, there seems to be a missing word there...) that point to a larger group of people isn't collectivism. For instance, if I say "80% of Americans are Christian" (and I just pulled that number out of my ass for the sake of an example), then nowhere does that say that the 20% of Americans who aren't Christian should be silenced of have their rights restricted. Nowhere does it say that Christians should take priority over other groups in any sort of political or social discussion.
 

vonFiedler

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The definition of collectivism is "the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it." Do I actually have to explain how that negates individualism?

If I ever do advocate that individual rights should be ignored in the favor of the collective, by all means please jump all over me, because I'll be wrong.
Ok, maybe I've just been confused.

Because nothing of what he has said here:

It's individual analysis in the face of a systemic problem that's precisely the jig. Everyone is culpable and responsible but that doesn't make them bad humans. But racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/classism all have always been viewed/treated as an individual disease that rots a person to their core. For some reason they not only fail to but refuse to parse that simple reality that we SJWs and pc police are talking about things bigger than individual shit.
Has anything to do with that.

Talking about a problem as being systemic, as in, rooted in large scale facts and figures and socioneconomics, has nothing to do with whether or not we should try to prioritize individuals or a group. Valk specifically spoke in terms of diagnosing an issue, not solving it. A problem could be systemic, and it might still be up to individuals to solve it. But how do you solve a problem when you refuse to admit that it exists, or even be a little considerate of the possibility? And that still doesn't answer why solutions have to be absolutely individual or absolutely collectivist.

At the end of the day, that was a lot of hoops to jump through to lecture Valk on a stance he hasn't taken. So I'll leave it up to him as whether collectivism is relevant to what he's saying, but I think you're derailing the thread otherwise.
 
Ok, maybe I've just been confused.

Because nothing of what he has said here:



Has anything to do with that.

Talking about a problem as being systemic, as in, rooted in large scale facts and figures and socioneconomics, has nothing to do with whether or not we should try to prioritize individuals or a group. Valk specifically spoke in terms of diagnosing an issue, not solving it. A problem could be systemic, and it might still be up to individuals to solve it. But how do you solve a problem when you refuse to admit that it exists, or even be a little considerate of the possibility? And that still doesn't answer why solutions have to be absolutely individual or absolutely collectivist.

At the end of the day, that was a lot of hoops to jump through to lecture Valk on a stance he hasn't taken. So I'll leave it up to him as whether collectivism is relevant to what he's saying, but I think you're derailing the thread otherwise.
I thought you might take this stance, which is why if you read my post you might have noticed that at the very end I explained why I believe everything I just said also applies to political correctness as a whole.

Also solutions aren't absolutely individual or absolutely collectivist, that's where democracy comes in. However, freedom of expression and freedom of speech are both entrenched in our list of inalienable rights, and an attack on them undermines the individual's ability to have rights that can't be infringed upon in general. I already explained why I defend inalienable rights even if I don't agree with them, because if I don't, then what grounds do I have to defend any of them at all?
 

vonFiedler

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I thought you might take this stance, which is why if you read my post you might have noticed that at the very end I explained why I believe everything I just said also applies to political correctness as a whole.
So let me get this straight. Let me try to reduce this to simple math:

Your opponent is collectivist, which is bad.
Even if your opponent is not collectivist, PC is collectivist, which is bad.
Your opponent is talking about race, which is PC, which is bad cause it's collectivist.

When you add everything up, you get 12 nice 90% angles.

But you've yet to answer the first question I posed to you (or what your lecture has to do with Valk, even if generally relevant): Why do you think in absolutes in regard to the individual vs. the collective? When a five year old realizes that they don't have the right to murder someone else, they realize that some of their rights clash with those of others. Everyone thinks about the collective to a degree. If you can decide that Valk is a nasty collectivist, I can probably put money on your being somewhat nationalist ("See, this collectivist attitude deeply disturbs me, because it's antithetical to the principles that western democratic societies were built upon"). So either you're 100% a collectivist, which would follow the logic you've used so far, or you're a collectivist AND an individual, well, you said that's out. Or maybe, just maybe, everyone decides that some things merit individualism and some things merit collectivism, and deciding which, that's an actual debate. All you've done so far is try to put someone you disagree with in a box. But if you're up for the debate I'm talking about, I believe it's going on in the Authority vs. Equality thread.

Hell, in that thread you talk about how the commands of authority must be obeyed or risk repercussion. What about the individual? I feel like you could throw this wall of text at anyone you disagree with and ultimately your logic is collectivism is bad because marxism is bad because liberalism is bad because collectivism is bad.
 
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So let me get this straight. Let me try to reduce this to simple math:

Your opponent is collectivist, which is bad.
Even if your opponent is not collectivist, PC is collectivist, which is bad.
Your opponent is talking about race, which is PC, which is bad cause it's collectivist.

When you add everything up, you get 12 nice 90% angles.
I'm not going to argue about whether or not my opponent is a collectivist, so if it makes you feel better I'll concede that point because it doesn't affect any of my arguments in the slightest. I lose nothing to concede it.

You've also completely ignored where I explained how collectivism is bad, I notice. So no, it's not "PC is collectivist, therefore bad *full stop*", and I think you know that, don't you?

But you've yet to answer the first question I posed to you: Why do you think in absolutes in regard to the individual vs. the collective? When a five year old realizes that they don't have the right to murder someone else, they realize that some of their rights clash with those of others. Everyone thinks about the collective to a degree.
No, I did answer this question, you just ignored it. Democracy is the compromise we have as a nation. For example, as an individual, I despise Donald Trump. However, I'm willing to accept him as a president because he was democratically elected, and to not do so is to deny my own right to democracy.

However, to supplement democracy we must also have a base of inalienable rights to protect the minority from the whims of the majority, including freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Does anyone care to argue that political correctness does not violate those two principles?

If you can decide that Valk is a nasty collectivist, I can probably put money on your being somewhat nationalist ("See, this collectivist attitude deeply disturbs me, because it's antithetical to the principles that western democratic societies were built upon").
I'm not a cultural relativist, if that's what you're asking. I don't believe America is a great nation because it is America, I believe America is a great nation because the principles it was founded upon are the fairest and most humane compared to the alternatives.

All you've done so far is try to put someone you disagree with in a box. But if you're up for the debate I'm talking about, I believe it's going on in the Authority vs. Equality thread.
You're already in a box, I'm just trying to point out that putting yourself in that box might not end well, especially for you.

=
Hell, in that thread you talk about how the commands of authority must be obeyed or risk repercussion. What about the individual? I feel like you could throw this wall of text at anyone you disagree with and ultimately your logic is collectivism is bad because marxism is bad because liberalism is bad because collectivism is bad.
I already explained how collectivism (which undermines liberty) conflicts with liberalism (which upholds liberty). So you can't try to oust me from liberalism in a weak attempt at virtue signaling.

If you'd like to talk about Marxism I'll make a thread for it tomorrow, since apparently you don't feel that discussion should take place here.
 
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Myzozoa

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However, to supplement democracy we must also have a base of inalienable rights to protect the minority from the whims of the majority, including freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Does anyone care to argue that political correctness does not violate those two principles?
historical opponents of 'pc' gallery:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAc...edias_cultural_marxism_article_now_redirects/ <- the present. this could be you, watch out what u put in ur brains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory <- origins of 'political correctness'
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/12/sxsw-gamergate-harassment-summit-bullying-panel <- free speech means you dont have to listen to any women speak
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-for-rightwingers-who-love-to-play-the-victim
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ing-loner-facebook-ali-sonboly-bullied-killer

i wanted to dig up more links to school/mass shooters who claim to love 'free speech' and hate 'political correctness', but ill spare myself. is there some bizarre logic in shooting up schools if there is a mass delusion against a 'political correctness' conspiracy (i.e reality) becoming taken as an existential threat?

scary thread.

similar to some of what kitten milk already said:

it's ugly how much effort is being put in into justifying tolerating bullshit, what about speaking the truth? or even better, listening to it. people are really bad at listening, I def am, and that is more worrying to me.

The institutions that historically articulated support for free speech were rarely good practicers of it. in america, many of them also participated in slavery. anything can become a dogma, including an unbounded conception of free speech. such a conception remains to be taken up by anyone, and so it is important to critically examine how speech acts about 'free speech' come up in a context.


Lastly I wanted to get to this idea that college students are censoring anyone, which is simply hilarious.

https://feministkilljoys.com/2015/06/25/against-students/

"
The idea that students have become a problem because they are too sensitive relates to a wider public discourse that renders offendability as such a form of moral weakness (and as being what restricts “our” freedom of speech). Much contemporary racism works by positioning the others as too easily offendable, which is how some come to assert their right to occupy space by being offensive. And yes: so much gets “swept away,” by the charge of being too sensitive. A recent example would be how protests against the Human Zoo in the Barbican, about how racism is disguised as art or education, are swept up as a symptom of being “over-sensitive. According to this discourse, anti-racists end up censoring even themselves because they are “thin skinned.”

So much violence is justified and repeated by how those who refuse to participate in violence are judged. We need to make a translation. The idea that being over-sensitive is what stops us from addressing difficult issues can be translated as: we can’t be racist because you are too sensitive to racism.

Well then: we need to be too sensitive if we are to challenge what is not being addressed.

We might still need to ask: what is meant by addressing difficult issues? It is worth me noting that I have been met with considerable resistance from critical academics when trying to discuss issues of racism, power and sexism on campus. Some academics seem comfortable talking about these issues when they are safely designated as residing over there. Is this “there” what allows “difficult issues” not to be addressed here? In fact, it seems to me that it is often students who are leading discussions of “difficult issues” on campus. But when students lead these discussions they are then dismissed as behaving as consumers or as being censoring. How quickly another figure comes up, when one figure is exposed as fantasy. If not over-sensitive, then censoring; if not censoring, then consuming. And so on, and so forth."

I'd add that this "over there" might also be an 'in the past', and it may not exist/happened, as described, at all.

"
Indeed the instances of apparent censorship (translate: student protests) seemed to generate more discourse and discussion rather than preventing discourse or discussion. When students who protest against such-and-such speaker become censors, those who wrote and signed the letter become the ones who are silenced, whose freedoms are under threat. So much speech and writing is generated by those who claim they are silenced!

But we can still ask: what is the figure of the censoring student doing. By hearing student critique as censorship the content of that critique is pushed aside. When you hear a challenge as an attempt at censorship you do not have to engage with the challenge. You do not even have to say anything of substance because you assume the challenge as without substance.

"

im irl cackling rn tho.


tl;dr any laws/institutions that hang around too long are susp as hell.

itt people exhibit their constitutional/dispositional inability to listen.
see the thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/political-correctness-and-free-speech.3577398/page-3
 

vonFiedler

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You've also completely ignored where I explained how collectivism is bad, I notice. So no, it's not "PC is collectivist, therefore bad *full stop*", and I think you know that, don't you?
This only really matters if any of it was relevant to the person you responded to, and the jury is still out on that. Oh, I'm sorry, a jury is a group, I guess that's collectivist of me

No, I did answer this question, you just ignored it. Democracy is the compromise we have as a nation. For example, as an individual, I despise Donald Trump. However, I'm willing to accept him as a president because he was democratically elected, and to not do so is to deny my own right to democracy.

However, to supplement democracy we must also have a base of inalienable rights to protect the minority from the whims of the majority, including freedom of expression and freedom of speech. Does anyone care to argue that political correctness does not violate those two principles?
You hadn't answered my question, but then edited an answer in. But fair enough. Clearly you do agree that in some ways it's sensible to favor the collective. But not in terms of expression and speech. But again, Valk wasn't talking about that. So you had to link "systemics" to "collectivism" to "pc" to "freedom of expression and speech". That's insane. I honestly thought you were leaping less when your original post was "systems" to "marxism" to "death tolls".

You're already in a box, I'm just trying to point out that putting yourself in that box might not end well, especially for you.
I don't think you know a thing about my beliefs or political opinions, as evidenced when you tried to use "triggered" against me. So this quick cheeky comment only serves to further wall yourself off from criticism, which is what that means, "putting someone in a box". 'You think this, and if you say this, it really means this, and if you try to say this, well actually, you mean this other thing'. That's not a dialogue. That's a box. I'm just a guy who thinks maybe there are some flaws in the logic that brought you to making such a verbose post that didn't really create a dialogue at all. But if you just think I'm some liberal and that my opinion therefore doesn't matter, I guess you won't care. (it really shouldn't matter that I'm conservative)
 
This only really matters if any of it was relevant to the person you responded to, and the jury is still out on that. Oh, I'm sorry, a jury is a group, I guess that's collectivist of me
Cute, but I anticipated this coming up and I'm honestly not willing to argue about whether or not the person I was replying to is a collectivist because I can't see any way that would end other than infractions being doled out. I don't particularly care about infractions but rational discourse wouldn't take place either.

This is why I explained how even if my arguments aren't relevant to the person I responded to, they're still relevant to the topic of this discussion as a whole.



You hadn't answered my question, but then edited an answer in. But fair enough. Clearly you do agree that in some ways it's sensible to favor the collective. But not in terms of expression and speech. But again, Valk wasn't talking about that. So you had to link "systemics" to "collectivism" to "pc" to "freedom of expression and speech". That's insane. I honestly thought you were leaping less when your original post was "systems" to "marxism" to "death tolls".
See above.

I already linked PC to collectivism and collectivism to individual freedoms, and if you think there's a leap in my logic it would be nice if you specifically pointed out where.



I don't think you know a thing about my beliefs or political opinions, as evidenced when you tried to use "triggered" against me. So this quick cheeky comment only serves to further wall yourself off from criticism, which is what that means, "putting someone in a box". 'You think this, and if you say this, it really means this, and if you try to say this, well actually, you mean this other thing'. That's not a dialogue. That's a box. I'm just a guy who thinks maybe there are some flaws in the logic that brought you to making such a verbose post that didn't really create a dialogue at all. But if you just think I'm some liberal and that my opinion therefore doesn't matter, I guess you won't care. (it really shouldn't matter that I'm conservative)
You're in a box if you attack freedom of speech because you are attacking your very right to attack it. If that's not what you meant then I apologize for misunderstanding you, it's not an expression I encounter very often.

I don't recall saying that you think anything in particular, do you care to show me where I did? It might also surprise you to learn that *gasp* I'm a liberal myself so no, I don't think you're just "some liberal" as if that is a full summary of your position. The difference between me and most far-left progressive liberals I believe we can have both liberty and equality instead of being forced to choose one or the other.
 

Chou Toshio

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Tagging vonFiedler because related
Divine Retribution -- Backing up, while you're talking about something related, I do want to point out that this thread isn't about free speech; and I'm pretty sure it's not talking about authoritarian ideologies.

Why? Because I am pointing to a problem that rises from a social norm, not a law.

PC advocates point out that they aren't denying people from saying something non-PC, they only try to build a social norm where when someone says something non-PC, it will be immediately followed by rebuke from others. Not organizational censorship, but a broad social norm that will critique individual opinion with other individuals' opinions.

While there are topics like media censorship, and corporations firing employees for non-PC comments this is not exactly what I was talking about (but it's related enough that it can't be completely excluded from this thread). For the purpose of this post, I'm not talking about that, and it's a debate as to whether those types of non-government-organization policies are infractions on free speech.

Anyway, Valk and I are not debating infringement of freedom of speech or about whether an individual can say something non-PC.

SO, what TheValk and I DO disagree on is the best way to build a better society, and advance progressive social agenda. We are arguing about the best behavior and stance for social liberals to take in moving the ball forward.

SJWs prefer a hard-liner, absolutist stance that stands with the victims and and rebukes all forms of aggression (down to the micro) - because they see such a stance as the only way to tackle and root out systematic discrimination.

I am advocating a more context/relation-building/empathetic approach to liberalism where we give greater respect to culture/tradition, more breathing room to domestic and global regions still at a more conservative stage, and in fact also give each other more breathing room as well (because even an enlightened culture should get to have jokes about how all Filipino cookbooks are entitled 101 ways to wok your dog) - because I want to give room to human nature in order to avoid deepening of social divides, and avoid a social norm that inspires hate and could be seen as oppressive.

(not to mention sending all the white working class to the Republicans despite that being against their own best interests.*)


TheValkeries believes that SJWs' conduct is a necessary action against racism, but hasn't given a solution to the problem I've outlined.

I am highlighting a problem, but not proposing any easily spread, widespreading solution-- because I don't have an easy one for this complex set of problems.


We both agree that systematic discrimination is real, and that eliminating discrimination is a social good. We disagree on the way to get there, and on the final result (one side seeing only a perfectly PC world as acceptable, while my side sees it as a mutually accepting society that leaves room for jokes and stereotypes as a human means of coping with real differences).

Hopefully that better frames the discussion.









* Of course, it's debatable whether it was disdain of liberal elites (and SJWers), or if it was inability for establishment democrats to split with wallstreet/special interests that did Hillary in. Probably both. Bottom line is that Bernie would have won :afrostar:
 
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However, to supplement democracy we must also have a base of inalienable rights to protect the minority from the whims of the majority, including freedom of expression and freedom of speech.

But... "Political correctness" (that is, by your definition, rebuking bigotry) is also protecting minority groups from majority groups. That's kind of the whole point.

That said, do you have any proof of TEH EVIL PC POLICE shutting down the poor put-upon bigots' free speech? Because I've been asking around for years and haven't found any yet (plenty of bigots shutting down or attempting to shut down liberals' and minority groups' free speech, though!). Difficulty: Being banned from Twitter for spamming the n-word or being fired from your job for calling a customer the c-word is not a free speech issue, and neither is being criticised (on the contrary, criticism is free speech).
 
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Chou Toshio

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But... "Political correctness" (that is, by your definition, rebuking bigotry) is also protecting minority groups from majority groups. That's kind of the whole point.

That said, do you have any proof of TEH EVIL PC POLICE shutting down the poor put-upon bigots' free speech? Because I've been asking around for years and haven't found any yet (plenty of bigots shutting down or attempting to shut down liberals' and minority groups' free speech, though!). Difficulty: Being banned from Twitter for spamming the n-word or being fired from your job for calling a customer the c-word is not a free speech issue, and neither is being criticised (on the contrary, criticism is free speech).
Again, as in my post above-- I did not create frame this thread as a freedom of speech topic. That's a different topic, but most PC proponents I've talked to don't endorse actions that I would consider a violation of freedom of speech, so I'm good on that one.

I framed this thread as a "what type of behavior/attitude should social liberals take if they want progress on their agenda while not inspiring division/hate?"

"And/or do we even care about whether absolute-PC behavior is inspiring hate? I think we should care."

If you don't care-- well, we'll see how this plays out. Anything I say here in this thread isn't going to make a broad shift in public conscience anyway. However, I am personally terrified by the direction things are turning, and am fielding my opinions in an anonymous community that just so happens to have a high number of the target audience for this subject of discussion (millennial and younger social liberals).
 
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Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
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Again, as in my post above-- I did not create frame this thread as a freedom of speech topic. That's a different topic, but most PC proponents I've talked to don't endorse actions that I would consider a violation of freedom of speech, so I'm good on that one.

I framed this thread as a "what type of behavior/attitude should social liberals take if they want progress on their agenda while not inspiring division/hate?"

"And/or do we even care about whether absolute-PC behavior is inspiring hate? I think we should care."

If you don't care-- well, we'll see how this plays out. Anything I say here in this thread isn't going to make a broad shift in public conscience anyway. However, I am personally terrified by the direction things are turning, and am fielding my opinions in an anonymous community that just so happens to have a high number of the target audience for this subject of discussion (millennial and younger social liberals).
the propaganda machines are setting you up to blame the left when they start locking leftist up. political correctness conspiracies, such that someone saying you're not correct about some political issue makes someone guilty of promoting 'hate', is a perfect way for the right-wing to play the victim to justify murdering it's opponents.


your fear is dumb, mine is justified.

we see children on these forums talking about how 'social justice warriors wont be allowed to grow, their ways of thinking are dangerous', when the historical fact of the matter is that exact opposite is true.

this thread is just as much bait as the other one that got locked.


way to put your delusions on display.

people who think that pc culture is a big problem have no problem with the new mccarthyism clearly.

as in this thread, so many who claim that their voices have been silenced seem to be capable of generating much discourse, no one that has ever called out the promotion of systemic sexism or racism in an article or in something you said has ever silenced you, you silenced yourself with your own idiocy, you stopped talking because you have nothing to say except that youre actually the victim, and to project your own hate on to your opponents. it's easier to ad hominem your opponent than to engage with the content of their criticism.


for example Divine Retribution retribution invokes rightwing political correctness constantly.


""Political correctness" is a label typically used for left-wing terms and actions, but not for equivalent attempts to mold language and behavior on the right. However, the term "right-wing political correctness" is sometimes applied by commentators drawing parallels: in 1995, one author used the term "conservative correctness" arguing, in relation to higher education, that "critics of political correctness show a curious blindness when it comes to examples of conservative correctness. Most often, the case is entirely ignored or censorship of the Left is justified as a positive virtue. [...] A balanced perspective was lost, and everyone missed the fact that people on all sides were sometimes censored."[22][82][83][84]

In 2003, Dixie Chicks, a U.S. country music group, criticized the then U.S. President George W. Bush for launching the war against Iraq.[85] They were criticized[86]and labeled "treasonous" by some U.S. right-wing commentators (including Ann Coulter and Bill O'Reilly).[23] Three years later, claiming that at the time "a virulent strain of right wing political correctness [had] all but shut down debate about the war in Iraq," journalist Don Williams wrote that "[the ongoing] campaign against the Chicks represents political correctness run amok" and observed, "the ugliest form of political correctness occurs whenever there's a war on."[23]

In 2003, French fries and French toast were renamed "Freedom fries" and "Freedom toast"[87] in three U.S. House of Representatives cafeterias in response to France's opposition to the proposed invasion of Iraq. This was described as "polluting the already confused concept of political correctness."[88] In 2004, then Australian Labor leader Mark Latham described conservative calls for "civility" in politics as "the new political correctness."[89]

In 2012, Paul Krugman wrote that "the big threat to our discourse is right-wing political correctness, which – unlike the liberal version – has lots of power and money behind it. And the goal is very much the kind of thing Orwell tried to convey with his notion of Newspeak: to make it impossible to talk, and possibly even think, about ideas that challenge the established order."[24]"

In a 2015 Harris poll it was found that "Republicans are almost twice as likely – 42 percent vs. 23 percent – as Democrats to say that “there are any books that should be banned completely.”...Republicans were also more likely to say that some video games, movies and television programs should be banned."[90][91]
 
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Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
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like we already had a thread for this, weird how the post-election coincides with your need to start a new thread. think about it.
 
for some reason, liberal thought consists of echo chambers and coddling, but the resounding message of the thread is that their messages need to coddle the right because of SILENCE?!

this feels eerily like reverse racism to me; hegemons are attempting to appropriate and overtake marginalized language in order to redefine the narrative as the oppressor actually being oppressed.
 
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verbatim

[PLACEHOLDER]
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I've started using the term Social Warrior (SW) instead of SJW, being an asshole about free speech, safe spaces, etc, isn't exactly limited to any one part of the political spectrum.

People that act like it is are more interested in pursuing a political agenda than they are about actually defending the freedom of expression.
 
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Chou Toshio

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lol

To clarify-- there is no way that I could be considered a "victim" of political correctness. I have literally nothing to gain either way; not in personal comfort, not in social standing.

In my personal life, I'm not at all the type of person who SJW's would harass to begin with-- and I live in Japan, my private interactions 90% being with Japanese. I am completely un-invested from the issue-- save for watching the disturbing, and worrying developments going on. Not for any moral fault on the social left, but that doesn't mean these things aren't happening.

I'm simply making an observation-- as I'm not offering up a solution, I'm only offering food for thought for those whom find it relevant.
 
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Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
lol

To clarify-- there is no way that I could be considered a "victim" of political correctness. I have literally nothing to gain either way; not in personal comfort, not in social standing.

In my personal life, I'm not at all the type of person who SJW's would harass to begin with-- and I live in Japan, my private interactions 90% being with Japanese. I am completely un-invested from the issue-- save for watching the disturbing, and worrying developments going on. Not for any moral fault on the social left, but that doesn't mean these things aren't happening.

I'm simply making an observation-- as I'm not offering up a solution, I'm only offering food for thought for those whom find it relevant.
Basically all Asian mainstream perspective about race and political correctness is wrong and dumb, whilst the American left wing perspective is right and moral.
That's all some people are providing.

Maybe we should stop trying.

People feel the need to insult and use abusive language, even when our views are totally mainstream in Asia.
Do we have to even try discussing with them?

They are a bunch of teenagers who have NOT lived in more than one continent.
They aren't going to see what we are seeing.

KittenMilk
hint hint hint....
Seriously.
With the internet being so developed and globalized nowadays, the history of a particular country still matters?
Why is race not a global thing instead?
 
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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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I can sum up the problems social liberals are facing right now fairly briefly, which I'm sure thread readers will enjoy compared to the rest of the thread:

To analogize, The Social Left has become the Religious Right of the 1950-80's, except the Religious Right was defined by a static God with fixed beliefs one could hold Religious Rightists accountable to. Arguments were then advanced which relied on these facets (along with some counter-ideological moral browbeating) and pretty much every authoritarian impulse has been bred out of right-of-center people. Religious Rightists are now at the point where we have to explain to society, patiently, why venerating all aberrant sexual habits doesn't "Trump" venerating our own God when we open up our business or just go to work in the morning.

Social Justice / Social Left replaced that fixed God with an amorphous Moloch that is never satisfied until you can recite the 78 Tumblr Genders and psychically know which ones apply to all people at all times - and then it will invent a new, even crazier sin to repent from to install in your daily social interaction. The entire movement completely lacks empathy for its declared enemies, such that when blatant Christian bigotry is stated and then pointed out, the response is "Oh, the poor Christians! [Subtext: What about real victims without privilege of advantageous power dynamics?]" The guy who lost his factory job in Michigan twenty years ago and has been drifting from non-career to non-career ever since doesn't care that the people he sees shooting up and burning down Detroit every day have higher social value in academia than he does. To him, Academia is nothing but Communist professors and spoiled brats (and current events note: their behavior since November 9th is actively confirming this bias)!

The Social Left movement has been repudiated because it's become a Moral Movement without a Moral Center, and as people will often do when moral busybodies get drunk on institutional power (academia, government, the media,) they rebel using any tool available. Trump made himself available as a tool with at least the temerity to push back, and his base "unacceptable-ness" was entirely the point for many of his voters.

The issue with political correctness is that it was labeling non-racism as racism, non-sexism as sexism, and inventing new "isms" and "phobias" by the day while ignoring the bread and butter problems of normal people. The race to be a "good person" became about signaling your level of rightthink virtue, false damnation of your own "privilege," and -pardon the expression- "white-knighting" for whoever was most oppressed by a random person's wrongspeak that day. Normal people struggling with a stagnant economy who are flatly told they are ineligible for social concern have no tolerance for that arrangement.

I have a few more thoughts but I promised to be brief.
 

verbatim

[PLACEHOLDER]
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I have never met anyone offline or online that unironically used "72" pronouns (or virgins for that matter). I'd imagine they are about as relevant to the general population as fursuiters.


In general I'm pretty hesitant about anyone that frames an issue in absolutes (x is evil and y isn't). I can see your parallel, but I think it's more indicative of political polarization in the Internet age more than anything else. If you can surround yourself with only people that reinforce your political beliefs, only the extremists cross over to the other-side, and they paint a pretty shitty picture of their normal counterparts.


Being an asshole to someone about them not subscribing to your beliefs isn't exactly a new thing.
 
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Solace

royal flush
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Basically all Asian mainstream perspective about race and political correctness is wrong and dumb, whilst the American left wing perspective is right and moral.
That's all some people are providing.

Maybe we should stop trying.

People feel the need to insult and use abusive language, even when our views are totally mainstream in Asia.
Do we have to even try discussing with them?

They are a bunch of teenagers who have NOT lived in more than one continent.
They aren't going to see what we are seeing.


Seriously.
With the internet being so developed and globalized nowadays, the history of a particular country still matters?
Why is race not a global thing instead?
because this is a us-centric website and the majority of posters are from the united states. there are a lot of global complexities with race and race relations but "the white man's burden" is a global issue, as so many countries are still facing the negative lasting effects that colonialism had on them.

truthfully, i don't really understand the push back against social justice. what's so wrong with people wanting to be treated with respect and feeling safe in their environment? people are going to be militant about wanting this. idk.. how many of you have actually met a tumblr person irl who has tried to stifle your speech? i've literally never encountered that kind of conversation, ever, irl, and yet it's all i hear people complain about in these types of threads
 
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