Other Poll: Steel - Nerfed or Buffed?

[Chou Toshio]

Scizor isn't the only one. Genesect really want to use Iron Head. Sure there's fairies-- but wacking gengar is important too

 

[Aasgier]

Overall, I am the devil's advocate and think Steel as a type is actually buffed, but I disregard specific Pokémon as well as what the metagame looks like.

Yes, Fairies are rare, but it is one of the best offensive typings at this moment so Steels are just as vital as they were before to stop Dragons. Also, undoubtedly we get more and better fairies as time passes, making Steels still a vital part of every team.

When we take the Steel-type to the metagame, we see that not all Pokémon that have the Steel-type are buffed.

For something like Ferrothorn, that is bulky as heck and can still easily tank numerous Shadow Balls and the likes despite the lost resistance (and nobody is going to mindlessly Crunch into Ferrothorn due to Iron Barbs and a potential Life Orb, resistance or not), I consider it a buff. It is also slow, so it has a very powerful Gyro Ball that is actually worth using.
Then we have Scizor and Lucario, who aren't supposed to be tanking hits, and as a result, they greatly enjoy the increased number of threats that Bullet Punch hits for super-effective damage, so for these I consider it a buff as well.

On the other hand, there are the Psychic/Steels, for which this is a major nerf for reasons explained by the other people in this thread, and I don't feel like repeating them.

 

[Mr. Degradation]

I can't really answer the poll at the front because the only answer I've been able to reach is "neither." The only mons really impacted by the removal of Dark and Ghost from Steel's resistance pool are the mons who relied on it to even out their other type (such as Metagross, Jirachi and Bronzong.) On the otherhand, a 3rd SE is huge. It's just a change, Steel has to play fundamentally different now- because Steel/Psy and Steel/Ghost are no longer stupid-good typing.

Contextually speaking though- Excadrill, Aegislash, Forretress, Lucario, Mawhile, Scizor, Aggron, Magnezone and Ferrothorn are seeing play- and many of the used-to-be useless steel types show some potential.

 

[Shurtugal]

Oh yeah and I forgot to mention that Dark typing is a really good coverage type now (Crunch is really spammable on TTar and Lucario atm).

 

[DetectiveD]

For those who use steel types defensively, it's a nerf.

I use steel types offensively so I think it's a buff. Lucario's bullet punch has a lot more things to hit now.

 

[Lovedrive]

You're... gonna have to explain that one.

see, this is something i sort of disagree with. while its nice that fairies are immune to dragon, this is only really applicable for choiced dragon-types. due to the fact that outrage and draco meteor both suffer drawbacks when they hit steel-types, you can keep them either locked into outrage or suffer the halving of special attack. this is particularly useful on steel-types with recovery such as skarmory and jirachi. fairies however spring an outraging dragon out of its lock, and dont cause a specially based one to suffer a -2 to its special attack. non choiced dragons can then hit them with their coverage moves.

i also like the fact that steel picked up a fairy resistance, which means that the ever so common dragsteel combination will definetly still remain strong. overall id say that the type got buffed more than it got nerfed. having stuff like jirachi weak to pursuit and to gengar is annoying, but keep in mind it still has super effective stab moves against both of these.

- Cherub Agent

There you go. Other people have mentioned this as well. Throw Draco Meteors or Outrage at a steel and you're stuck or fucked because of the side effect in addition to doing less damage. Throw that shit at faries and it just doesn't work and you don't get hit with the side effect.

 

[Slheyas]

For Mega Mawile, if you really need a counter to that, use Hippowdon.

Hippowdon isn't good enough to counter M-Mawile, it's too slow.

Hippowdon set that's never gonna happen (252 atk, adamant), VS standard Mawile : 252+ Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 270-318 (88.81 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Meanwhile : 252+ Atk Huge Power (custom) (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Hippowdon: 177-208 (42.14 - 49.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, for Hippowdon to beat M-Mawile 1vs1 it needs to come in after a Pokemon fainted or into Sucker Punch to make sure he doesn't take damage, then he beats Mawile, with like 10% of its HP left.

If he comes into a boosted / subbed Mawile he loses 100% chance, can Slack Off stall forever if you so desire but a single crit will end it, and Rough play can and WILL reduce Hippo's attack.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Steel got nerfed no matter how you look at it. Sure it's strong against fairy types but there aren't very many fairy type moves (or pokemon) that are likely to see competitive use this generation. With fairy types moves, you have dazzling gleam, play rough, and moonblast. In terms of pokemon, the most likely candidates to makes it to OU or higher are Azumarill, Mawile, Togekiss, Gardevoir, and of course Xerneas. The rest of them are simply too weak (in terms of stats) or their movepool isn't large enough. Furthermore, most of these these pokemon (with the exception of Xerneas) have other weaknesses that can be exploited so many times fairy type isn't even needed for coverage.

We have a significantly larger number of ghost and dark type pokemon and attacks that are likely to see competitive use this generation (I'm not going to list them all). Bottom line is steel has less things it can reliably switch into and didn't get very much in return.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

I can't really answer the poll at the front because the only answer I've been able to reach is "neither."

Well, ya know what buddy? I'm fixing that. No one escapes my polls that easily.

 

[Shurtugal]

For the poll , we need a neither option. I only see two options atm, so it might just be me? Steel gets nerfed in some ways and buffed in others. I'd say the biggest loss was the immunity to poison and ghost-type resist; Arceusdamn I've made so many switches into Scizor on these attacks and forget Zor can no longer resist.

EDIT: You should be able to...?

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

For the poll , we need a neither option. I only see two options atm, so it might just be me? Steel gets nerfed in some ways and buffed in others. I'd say the biggest loss was the immunity to poison and ghost-type resist; Arceusdamn I've made so many switches into Scizor on these attacks and forget Zor can no longer resist.

Stupid question here, but can I add options to the poll? I didn't see anywhere I can do that.

 

[GeneralMLD]

Not a fan of ghosts and dark types denting ma steel. And fairies aren't catching on tbh

But in the end, steel types still have the most resistances of any types.

 

[L0calLEGEND]

I've been trying a meta w/ assault vest set and it has been going well. It can still take shadow balls and dark pulses, well at least get 3HKO'ed by them. I also paired it up with a taunt support crobat for some synergy.

Why are there no new non-exclusive steel type moves Game freak? Why?!

 

[MikeDawg]

in regards to the fairy/steel debate, a sturdy steel certainly has more merit, but fairies mean that choiced dragons aren't just spammable. Regardless of if u have a rachi/ferro/etc, latios' specs meteor is going to break eventually, and there was not much risk of hust spamming it (as opposed to like earthquake given how many are immune).

 

[Shurtugal]

@Above It should be noted that EQ is quite spammable on Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

EDIT: You should be able to...?

The only option I'm gettin' is to change the title :/

 

[Sazoon]

It's also interesting to note, but thanks to the steel nerf, ghost is actually on paper a stronger offensive type than dragon. They're both resisted by one type, both have a type that's iummune to it, but ghost is super effective against two things as opposed to dragon being super effective on only one type. Only difference is that ghost can't spam any move higher than 80 bp :P

 

[L0calLEGEND]

It's also interesting to note, but thanks to the steel nerf, ghost is actually on paper a stronger offensive type than dragon.

It's plausible.
It's true that many ghost type moves aren't that high in bp, but there is more variety of usable Stab moves than dragons. Ghosts when compared to dragons are less bulkier but more speedier which can cause problems when facing a certain scarfer because of below average defenses.
For super effectiveness, dark moves are a little less common than ice moves, but most ghost's second typings don't help much either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As much as I hate to see one of my favorite Pokemon take its fall from three generations in OU, I sadly have to agree with this sentiment. Though it has 9 resistances and 1 immunity, that's something that comparable to many other Steel-types. However, one last straw for it to grasp at is that Fairy-types may mitigate the overuse of Dark-types in this metagame.

That's a very thin and brittle straw. BUT I'm still going to be the one person running AgiliGross in OU :D

The point of Metagross isn't so much to take hits though since he lacks reliable recovery. The point of Metagross is similar to that of Scizor, where the point of using both is to take advantage of strong offensive movepools. Thus the Steel type changes don't really hurt him especially if you're running something like AgiliGross. Gengar and Ttar for instance really don't have any business screwing around with Metagross's Bullet Punch.

 

[Sazoon]

It's plausible.
It's true that many ghost type moves aren't that high in bp, but there is more variety of usable Stab moves than dragons. Ghosts when compared to dragons are less bulkier but more speedier which can cause problems when facing a certain scarfer because of below average defenses.
For super effectiveness, dark moves are a little less common than ice moves, but most ghost's second typings don't help much either.

Well from what I can tell, almost all of the ghosts from uu up (aside from cofagrigus and missy) either have a secondary typing or godly bst. It kinda seems to me as if having a secondary typing with ghost makes them much more usable.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

Well from what I can tell, almost all of the ghosts from uu up (aside from cofagrigus and missy) either have a secondary typing or godly bst. It kinda seems to me as if having a secondary typing with ghost makes them much more usable.

That secondary STAB really helps coverage for everyone, Ghost types definitely included.

Ghost + Fighting literally hits every Pokemon for at least neutral damage now. Generally speaking, Ghost's coverage is comparable to that of last Gen's Dragons.

 

[L0calLEGEND]

Well for second typing I meant defensively it doesn't help ghosts much and still makes them glass cannons. (Aside from jellicent, golurk and driftblim.) Offensively most of the dual stabs have beautiful coverage together.

Take gengar for example. Ghost/poison is an amazing typing for dual stabs but the poison is a double edged sword in which case it has a pretty abusable psychic weaknesses. Stop and think for a little, what does the poison type do? Well it helps with grass type moves and bug type moves. Ghost already was immune to fighting and resisted bug, EQ would be a problem but it has levitate. Poison gives it poison stab and grass resistance, but has a horrible psychic weaknesses.

 

[Captain MDS]

Well, I'm not sure if Steel has been nerfed or not, it's kind of a mixed bag. However, Ghost has been buffed, that's for sure. Dark, not so much due to that Fairy weakness. Poison also has been buffed but it's just getting it out of the bottom tier of types, whereas Ghost is now a top threat

 

[Jaroda]

Steel may technically be "buffed" offensively by hitting an additional type, but it's still a horrid coverage option. The only pokemon that should be using Steel moves are those that get STAB, or you're taking advantage of Gyro Ball. Fire and Water resisting Steel is a big deal, there are no Ice pokemon in OU and if there were there are a million other moves to hit them with, and outside of Tyranitar what Rock types do you see either? Poison Jab is a much better coverage option for Fairy types over Steel moves, especially since Dragons often have a Ground/Fire/Fighting move to hit Steel types that resist it too.

Defensively plain 'ol Steel about evens out since Dark moves are still uncommon and Fairy moves will likely be common to the point of Ice moves. Hitting Dragons and Fighting types super effectively is no joke, especially when they're other weaknesses aren't so common. But certain Steels that benefited from neutrality to Ghost and Dark got shafted hard. I hear speculation about GF changing the 600 BST event pokemon from Psychic to Fairy, so Jirachi may have hope yet specifically *crosses fingers*.

Steel is technically in a slightly worse position overall, but the game is better balanced for it. The resistances it has on top of Toxic and Sand immunity are still huge, we will never see this type diminish in usage, barring GF adding two more Steel counter-types in the future. -_-

 

[Cogg]

Depends on the Pokémon. Scizor got a massive buff... It's one of the best offensive Steel types, one of the only ones as well. And the neutral damage from Ghost and Dark doesn't cripple it's usefulness or nerf it completely, it just balances it. Any offensive Steel type in B/W was a huge threat because of the large amount of resistances, so I feel like Scizor is more balanced. It still punches holes in the opponent's team, and especially wrecks in it's mega forme. Things like Wall Steelix definitely got nerfed though, but not extremely, or to the point of unusability.
Imagine if Aegislash still resisted Ghost and Dark... So banned.