Pre-Release USUM Monotype Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
#26
Instead of talking about one of the new things coming to USUM, I just want to give my thoughts on old things that might rise at the very beginning of the meta:




Now hear me out, I think Deoxys-Defense will be utilized more throughout early USUM. Excellent defenses + Cosmic Power and Reliable Recovery make Deoxys an overall defensive menace. Sure it's not the offensive presence that would cover these new mons, but defensively speaking, it has everything it really needs to succeed. Solid speed and Taunt makes it so it can outspeed and threaten forms of setup in Toxapex, Vincune, and Scarf Naganadel, so it serves a better purpose outside of what I mentioned. I'm more or less wrong on this idea, but I think that it's something worth mentioning.
I'm sorry, but I'm very confused as to why you will run Deoxys-Defense in USUM. As a setup sweeper on Psychic it is outclassed by Mega Latias. I don't know why you would run Cosmic Power Deoxys-D as against Poison you're asking for Alolan Muk to come in and hit you with Knock Off. IMO Naganadanel will be usually carrying setup with Nasty Plot and using a Timid nature to boost its Speed with Beast Boost. I don't know why you would run Scarf Naganadel when Poison has other Scarfers such as Gengar or Nihilego to come around. Solid Speed and Taunt means nothing against Poison when Alolan Muk exists, although I do acknowledge your points about it putting work into Vincune builds without Greninja or Mega Sharpedo. Still a situational mon imo
 
#30
Did this tell us anything new about these Pokémon? Or is this just cool in-game footage?
Yes actually, DW Necrozma if you listen carefully popped some sort of Z-related item to transform into Ultra Necrozma, but instead used Photon Geyser. What I can assume is that both DW and DM Necrozma forms can immediately transform into Ultra Necrozma with a related Z-crystal, and perhaps it is possible to use the Z-move (Light That Burns The Sky) afterwards. Also, the Z-move "Light That Burns The Sky" is a 200 base power Psychic move when in tandem with Photon Geyser.

Animations are new, so when implemented is nice. "Let's Snuggle Forever" is Mimikyu's Z-move with base 195 power in tandem w/ Play Rough.

Edit: Why does that Necrozma Z-move look like a goddamn Spirit Bomb holy shit
 
Last edited:
#31
aigh so i looked over the new things coming in sumo and i figured id share my thoughts on some of them

NAGANADEL
This thing is redic if im being honest. it gets draco meteor, sludge wave, fire blast nasty plot, and it has beast boost to boost a stat after each kill. not to mention the fact that things like mantine, pex, tran and MUK all having a chance to die or a guaranteed death from z draco at +2. is it weird if i can see this thing getting a potential suspect? i can seriously see this thing having extremely little counterplay such as scarf ninja on water and dark and can see steel being forced to run garbage like random occa berries or tran with enough spdef to live the +2 z dracon and the rest in spa to kill it with earth power etc. either way this thing is gonna be wild.

ZERAORA
to be totally honest, im not sure how to feel about this mon, its moving at breakneck speeds sure, but its damage output is kinda ass, plus the ability is useless cuz even tho its attack turns normal type moves into electric, thus healing it, but whos actually using normal type attacking move in 2017 lul

long story short, i can see this being used on electric because electric appreciates any physical attacker it can get, still not that good tho tbf.

BLACEPHELON
its just chandelure on steroids. honestly i can maybe see i choice specs one on fire especially considering a choice specs blacephelon hits harder than zard y even after drought with mind blown, mind blown in the sun is gonna bust holes in teams
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 210-247 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 379-447 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 200-236 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
essentially the only things i see walling this is tyranitar because literally everything else gets broken.
on ghost i honestly dont know what this will run. i cant see it filling any roles that ghost needs filled. it doesnt have sun to break things like on fire, and it doesnt provide any valuable resists. not to mention its still slower than the keldeos + terrakions, im not sure about how this will do on ghost.

STACKATACKA
i cant wait to use this in mono pu for snake this year

KOMMO-O Z MOVE
this one is a toughie, because this WOULD be a good thing for a quick gimmick sweep, but now that everyone on earth knows about it, people will definitely play smart around it and people will definitely find a way to get you to burn your z move. i can see this shitting on types with no fairy mon or a good check like poison and steel tho.

MIMIKYU Z MOVE
im really really really really REALLY disappointed that this is fairy instead of ghost. fairy is so much worse and doesn't actually help it break the things that check it like defensive celesteela, scizor, toxapex, etc. i did some calcs on ghost z and check this out:
+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 339-400 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 274-324 (83.7 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 373-439 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
now look at the current fairy z move:
+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 255-301 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Thats an L.
i can see this things usage being the exact same.

THINGS THAT MIGHT GET A RISE:
Weavile on ice for blacephelon and naganadel

pursuit on dark tyranitars: for blacephelon
earthquake on both type tyranitars: for blacephelon and naganadel
bisharp on both types: defog spam
defiant thundy on electric: defog spam
sub toxic zapdos on both types: both of its types now have reliable defoggers outside of itself so it doesnt need to run it anymore
groundium tran with some spdef evs: this is basically the only way i can see steel not getting blown back by naganadel (not even that consistant considering it can run hp ground but this is the best steel has)

maybe less three attacks p2 and more toxic for the mimikyu

and i would say scarf gren gets a rise for naganadel but that would inply you dont already need to run scarf gren on both of its types anyways.
rise of rotom on all of its types because of defog

thats about it, stackatacka for S rank on steel dont @ me
 
#32
There's another slightly important thing for Rock that I didn't mention in my earlier post mainly because I didn't know its stats at the time: Lycanroc-Dusk

The main reason I can see Lycanroc-Dusk having a slight niche on Rock is because of its access to Tough Claws+Accelerock. When Choice Banded, this can allow it to revenge kill a rather important threat to Rock teams in BD Azumarill:

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 144-169 (42.2 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This isn't difficult to guarantee after some slight chip damage from Tyranitar's sand. And considering how Fairy may start running Sticky Web Ribombee, 48 Speed Cradily isn't as good of a choice to handle Azumarill. Outside of this niche it does have some decent coverage options available to it (Drill Run, Iron Head), but it for the most part will have the same niche appeal as its Midday counterpart.

Also in response to this:
THINGS THAT MIGHT GET A RISE:
Weavile on ice for blacephelon and naganadel
pursuit on dark tyranitars: for blacephelon
earthquake on both type tyranitars: for blacephelon and naganadel
sub toxic zapdos on both types: both of its types now have reliable defoggers outside of itself so it doesnt need to run it anymore
Agree with the Weavile on Ice thing, but the others are kinda weird:

-Why would Dark be threatened by Blacephalon? Looking at its movepool, it can't severely threaten Dark teams any more than Chandelure can, since it's still doing nothing to Hydreigon, always gets Pursuit trapped by Alolan Muk on balance builds, and offensive builds can already handle it so easily between Greninja, Mega Sharpedo, the aforementioned Hydreigon, and even Bisharp if it's some Scarf or Specs set. I don't see why Tyranitars on either balance or offense would be running Pursuit just to handle this pokemon that's hardly even a threat.

-I'm only assuming you're talking about bulky sets on Dark when you say that Earthquake may get a rise, because Banded sets won't even need Earthquake to KO Naganadel.And the bulkiest Ttar on Rock is the AV set, which isn't afraid of either of these Pokemon. I'm also gonna assume that mentioning Blacephalon at all was a mistake, since Blacephalon is quite literally a non-threat to both of Tyranitar's types.

-Flying always had reliable defoggers outside of Zapdos, so I don't see where that comes from. Also considering how important Rotom-Wash's 4 moves are, what exactly would it willingly replace to make room for Defog?
 
#33
There's another slightly important thing for Rock that I didn't mention in my earlier post mainly because I didn't know its stats at the time: Lycanroc-Dusk

The main reason I can see Lycanroc-Dusk having a slight niche on Rock is because of its access to Tough Claws+Accelerock. When Choice Banded, this can allow it to revenge kill a rather important threat to Rock teams in BD Azumarill:

252 Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 144-169 (42.2 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This isn't difficult to guarantee after some slight chip damage from Tyranitar's sand. And considering how Fairy may start running Sticky Web Ribombee, 48 Speed Cradily isn't as good of a choice to handle Azumarill. Outside of this niche it does have some decent coverage options available to it (Drill Run, Iron Head), but it for the most part will have the same niche appeal as its Midday counterpart.

Also in response to this:


Agree with the Weavile on Ice thing, but the others are kinda weird:

-Why would Dark be threatened by Blacephalon? Looking at its movepool, it can't severely threaten Dark teams any more than Chandelure can, since it's still doing nothing to Hydreigon, always gets Pursuit trapped by Alolan Muk on balance builds, and offensive builds can already handle it so easily between Greninja, Mega Sharpedo, the aforementioned Hydreigon, and even Bisharp if it's some Scarf or Specs set. I don't see why Tyranitars on either balance or offense would be running Pursuit just to handle this pokemon that's hardly even a threat.

-I'm only assuming you're talking about bulky sets on Dark when you say that Earthquake may get a rise, because Banded sets won't even need Earthquake to KO Naganadel.And the bulkiest Ttar on Rock is the AV set, which isn't afraid of either of these Pokemon. I'm also gonna assume that mentioning Blacephalon at all was a mistake, since Blacephalon is quite literally a non-threat to both of Tyranitar's types.

-Flying always had reliable defoggers outside of Zapdos, so I don't see where that comes from. Also considering how important Rotom-Wash's 4 moves are, what exactly would it willingly replace to make room for Defog?
I think the problem is you are seriously underestimating Blacephalon

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 245-288 (75.3 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That’s not even mind blown, that’s just regular fire blast. What this calc means is that fire blast not only 2hkos easily without sun, but also a mind blast in the sun actually just ohkos it

There’s also this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola in Sun: 297-351 (71.9 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which is a mind blown in sun vs muk alola, this calc means that muk can’t even hard switch in, it also means it can take next to no chip or it just dies immediately.

Also please don’t forget that this has beast boost.
At +1 almost any chip puts ttar at risk of being 2hkod by fire blast

Onto the second one I’m just gonna address av ttar not being scared of either mon.
It may not be scared of blacephalon but naganadel is a very real threat to it

+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 342-403 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Calc was glitching with z moves so I just changed the base power)

You plot up on the switch into ttar and click z draco, and with no attack investment you don’t kill it back with literally anything except earthquake hence why I said it might be run more. And if you run more attack to kill with stone edge you put yourself at risk of just dying to the +2 z draco

Onto Blacephelon, it was my fault I meant on rock for naganadel and and on dark for both, and I don’t think I need to restate my reasoning for why blacephalon is a threat to dark, sure it’s easily checked but it can just switch out, and ttar can only take so many fire blasts before it just dies to either blacephalon or over the course of the game, and once ttar dies blacephalon has 0 actual switchins so there’s that.

Lastly, I know flying has other reliable defoggers but it always appreciated the double defog for things like dnite, zard y, and for keeping sturdy on skarm. In this new gen there’s next to no reason NOT to run sub toxic, with everything and their mon getting defog.

And for rotom I could maybe? See defog over pain split. Obviously pain split helps a lot tho but I can see defog getting use, which frees up zapdos’s moveset.

Also, just so this isn’t just a reply post, what are the thoughts on Blacephelon on ghost and Kommo-o on fighting. I’m not sure how well these guys will do on these types. Ghost and fighting already have extremely tight teamslots with mons that they NEED to have so that they have a chance against everything in the meta, but this definitely doesn’t mean they will not find a slot on the teams plus the fact that the meta changing a bit might make some mons obsolete on these types in favor of new things this gen. Thoughts?
 
#34
Onto the second one I’m just gonna address av ttar not being scared of either mon.
It may not be scared of blacephalon but naganadel is a very real threat to it

+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 342-403 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Calc was glitching with z moves so I just changed the base power)

You plot up on the switch into ttar and click z draco, and with no attack investment you don’t kill it back with literally anything except earthquake hence why I said it might be run more. And if you run more attack to kill with stone edge you put yourself at risk of just dying to the +2 z draco
Dude your calcs are all wrong. You put a 2+ with a Specs and used Blacephalon special attack instead of Naganadel. Thats the actual damage

+2 252 SpA Nihilego Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 195-231 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
 
#35
Dude your calcs are all wrong. You put a 2+ with a Specs and used Blacephalon special attack instead of Naganadel. Thats the actual damage

+2 252 SpA Nihilego Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 195-231 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
Damn Daniel you’re right I didn’t notice that, point still standing that +2 z and +2 draco does 80% absolute minimum so it has to avoid chip the entire game which is hard because it has the be the switchin to the special attackers both poison and dragon has. So i still think it’s a threat but honestly thanks for the correction
 
#36
I think the problem is you are seriously underestimating Blacephalon

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 245-288 (75.3 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That’s not even mind blown, that’s just regular fire blast. What this calc means is that fire blast not only 2hkos easily without sun, but also a mind blast in the sun actually just ohkos it

There’s also this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola in Sun: 297-351 (71.9 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which is a mind blown in sun vs muk alola, this calc means that muk can’t even hard switch in, it also means it can take next to no chip or it just dies immediately.

Also please don’t forget that this has beast boost.
At +1 almost any chip puts ttar at risk of being 2hkod by fire blast

Onto the second one I’m just gonna address av ttar not being scared of either mon.
It may not be scared of blacephalon but naganadel is a very real threat to it

+2 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 342-403 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Calc was glitching with z moves so I just changed the base power)

You plot up on the switch into ttar and click z draco, and with no attack investment you don’t kill it back with literally anything except earthquake hence why I said it might be run more. And if you run more attack to kill with stone edge you put yourself at risk of just dying to the +2 z draco

Onto Blacephelon, it was my fault I meant on rock for naganadel and and on dark for both, and I don’t think I need to restate my reasoning for why blacephalon is a threat to dark, sure it’s easily checked but it can just switch out, and ttar can only take so many fire blasts before it just dies to either blacephalon or over the course of the game, and once ttar dies blacephalon has 0 actual switchins so there’s that.

Lastly, I know flying has other reliable defoggers but it always appreciated the double defog for things like dnite, zard y, and for keeping sturdy on skarm. In this new gen there’s next to no reason NOT to run sub toxic, with everything and their mon getting defog.

And for rotom I could maybe? See defog over pain split. Obviously pain split helps a lot tho but I can see defog getting use, which frees up zapdos’s moveset.

Also, just so this isn’t just a reply post, what are the thoughts on Blacephelon on ghost and Kommo-o on fighting. I’m not sure how well these guys will do on these types. Ghost and fighting already have extremely tight teamslots with mons that they NEED to have so that they have a chance against everything in the meta, but this definitely doesn’t mean they will not find a slot on the teams plus the fact that the meta changing a bit might make some mons obsolete on these types in favor of new things this gen. Thoughts?
Important thing to note is that apparently Mind Blown rounds its self-damage up so even if hazards are kept off the field it'll still kill itself in the process of killing a fair few things if you only use Mind Blown.
Just what I heard, though
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#37
Important thing to note is that apparently Mind Blown rounds its self-damage up so even if hazards are kept off the field it'll still kill itself in the process of killing a fair few things if you only use Mind Blown.
Just what I heard, though
Do you have a source for this? That sounds strange to me because all decimals in Pokemon are floored, that is to say made to be the largest integer less than or equal to the decimal (56.3 -> 56). As far as I know, there are no instances of ceiling being used.
 
#43
Thoughts on Sticky Web Ribombee on Fairy and Bug?
As if Fairy needed a better matchup against offense :/

Screens + Webs is going to be near impossible for Offense teams to get through, paired with the already incredible pressure fairy puts on the archetype with koko and azumarill. I don't know if it'll end up being the predominant fairy build, given the limitations it places on the rest of the team, but I'm pretty certain it'll be relevant.

As for Bug, it seems like a usable alternative to Galvantula. The extra speed is nice to avoid some speed ties with other 108s, and Moonblast helps hazard Dragon and other annoying threats like Mega Sableye. Giving up Thunder sucks though, and will make the Water and Flying matchups more difficult.
 
#44
Liquidation Cloyster is a thing too, if that even matters at all
Cloyster unfortunately won't make very good use of Liquidation. While it is significantly stronger than Razor Shell, and it can allow Cloyster to run more Attack, it cannot pull off a lot of the KOs that Hydro Pump is able to against certain threats:

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal in Sun: 126-150 (36.6 - 43.6%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 136 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Torkoal in Sun: 320-378 (93 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Cloyster Liquidation vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 127-151 (38.8 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 136 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 309-364 (94.4 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah Rotom Frost getting Defog is the only particularly good thing Ice is gonna get in USUM.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.