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DPP OU Presenting: The number one ranked offense team!

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by panamaxis, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    A lot of you may know me as a stall player. At the current time I’ve been seeing a lot of stall teams around and I myself have got sick of playing stall. I wanted to see if Offensive teams were still viable and with my success on the ladder...well you be the judge of that. When you look at my team, you notice 3 things:

    1) Every pokemon is immune to toxic spikes. This is huge when I’m facing stall teams.

    2) Two pokemon are weak to Stealth Rock.

    3) Four pokemon are immune to Spikes.

    So the team is pretty good as far as passive damage is concerned. Offensive teams are built on resistances so the player can make switches around the team, so having my pokemon taking minimal passive damage is essential when playing with no walls.. This team can beat all styles of play, but then again it can lose to all styles of play.

    I personally have loved playing with offensive teams, the fast paced tempo is great and even though some pokemon involve exploding and revenge killing to beat, that doesn’t mean offensive teams are any worse than others. I want to encourage you all to try offense and the suspect ladder, it’s fun, fast and invigorating.

    Anyway, without further adieu, I present to you, the team...

    At a Glance:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In depth:

    Metagross @ Leftovers
    Ability: Clear Body
    Adamant, 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Speed

    - Stealth Rock
    • A staple on any team. Stealth Rocks are especially crucial in offensive teams as they turns many 3HKOs into 2HKOs.
    - Meteor Mash
    • STAB and high powered move. Meteor Mash deals a lot of damage to anything that doesn’t resist it.
    - Explosion
    • This is pretty much a guaranteed kill unless the opposing pokemon is named Skarmory, Foretress or is a ghost type. The gap created by Explosion helps pave the way for my powerful sweepers.
    - Bullet Punch
    • A much needed priority attack that helps against suicide leads and can help late game when Metagross is weakened against faster sweepers like Mamoswine and Azelf.
    Description: Metagross is a great lead. There are only two leads which I lose against: Infernape and Heatran. Outside these two, no common lead can OHKO it, hell not many can 2HKO, Metagross is that bulky. I don’t use Aerodactyl because I feel wasting a pokemon just to set up stealth rocks is not a good idea. Against Aerodactyl and Azelf, they only set up stealth rocks, nothing more. If aerodactyl taunts, they get no SR, if he doesnt taunt, I get SR and kill aerodactyl.

    One of the best leads in my opinion. If I get a Meteor Mash attack raise Metagross can sweep unsuspecting teams, (I’ve swept 6-0 with this guy alone). To get an idea of his power and bulk, if I get an attack raise from meteor mash, I will outdamage Bronzong , even if he has Earthquake. This guy usually sets up Stealth Rocks and is pretty much guaranteed a KO with explosion if I predict right.

    EVs: Max attack allows me the possibility of OHKOing Hippowdon with Explosion. Max HP allows me to survive lead Azelfs Fire Blast. Yanmega’s Bug Buzz is a 3HKO as is Aerodactyl's Earthquake.

    Team Work: Metagross lures out Bulky grounds such Hippowdon and Swampert. If these two lead, I just explode right away and forgo Stealth Rocks. These two commonly carry Stealth Rocks themselves, so neither team gets SR, while I eliminate a major threat to my sweepers. As already mentioned, a timely explosion is gamebreaking. In short Metagross is a suicide lead that is meant to last. I emphasise the word “suicide” because Metagross usually ends up exploding to make way for my sweepers to clean up. Metagross’s steel typing also makes it a great switch into draco meteors and outrages.

    Fire and Ground attacks aimed at Metagross should be redirected to.....

    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    Adamant , 74 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe

    - Dragon Dance
    • The stat boosting move that makes gyarados so fearsome. After a Dragon Dance, Gyarados will usually kill at least one pokemon (and if he doesn’t kill, significantly weaken).
    - Waterfall
    • STAB and my main sweeping move. The main sweeping move in my arsenal. The 20% flinch chance is also welcome.
    - Stone Edge
    • This takes care of Zapdos, Salamence and opposing Gyarados.
    - Bounce
    • Secondary STAB and extremely useful against Celebi. With bounce I gain a ton of health back due to leftovers. Here is some damage calculations for bounce:
      [*]Bold 252 HP / 220 Def Celebi: 81.68-96.53%
      [*]Timid 136 HP / 156 Def Starmie: 72.54-85.76%
    Description: Standard Life Orb set with Leftovers and Bounce. I tried life orb, but Gyarados ended up dying too quickly. Plus it doesn’t push too many 2HKOs into OHKOs in my experience, now that Garchomp has been banned and pokemon are running less special attack and more HP / Defense, unless I use Bounce and life orb, but that is a bad idea as they can stall me out too easily then. If I get a DD, watch out because the opponent will often lose a poke or get significantly weakened. This guy doesn’t always die early and is monstrous late game if their counter has been eliminated.

    EVs: Max Attack is fairly obvious to deal as much damage as possible. 184 Speed EVs allow me to outspeed base 115s after a DD, notably starmie. The rest is thrown into HP for extra survivability.

    Team Work: Gyarados deals massive damage to most pokemon. A lot of teams rely on scarfers just to take him out so if I can keep chipping away at their counter, a Gyarados sweep becomes very likely. I try to save this guy until late game, where he can clean up.

    Electric type attacks aimed at Gyarados should be redirected to....

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    Modest, 156 HP / 252 Sp. Atk / 100 Speed

    - Draco Meteor
    • Arguably the best Special Based Move in the game. Draco Meteor deals insane amounts of damage to anything that doesn’t resist (or is a fat whore known as blissey).
    - Surf
    • Surf provides great coverage with Draco Meteor. Surf will 2HKO Scizor and Surf + Draco Meteor will 2HKO most Tyranitar, the two most common switch-ins to Latias.
    - Recover
    • Latias is pretty beastly, so she should have no trouble recovering health. Latias is my main switch into bulky waters, magnezone and Heatran so Recover keeps Latias healthy and allows her to switch in again and again.
    - Psycho Shift
    • Latias acts as my status absorber. With this move I can switch into Togekiss’s Thunder-Wave, Rotom’s Will-o-Wisp and Blissey’s Toxic and reflect the status back upon them. It should be noted that I have the chance to outstall Blissey if I Psycho-Shift her Toxic back upon her.
    Description: Latias’s job is to lure in Scizor and T-tar and nail them with Surf and Draco Meteor. Latias is also useful because it is a great bulky water counter (vaporeon’s Ice Beam doesn’t 2HKO), infernape counter, magnezone counter, just a great switch-in to a lot of special attacking threats in general.

    EVs: Max Special Attack allows me to score the 2HKO on Scizor and Tyranitar (and some metagross for that matter). I have no idea what the speed EVs are for (I will ask RaikouLover eventually as this is his spread) and some HP EVs allow great survivability against things like Heatran’s HP Ice (which does around 37%).

    Team Work: Latias combos well with Gyarados, beating most of its counters as well as resisting the main type of attack used to defeat it. When playing on the standard ladder I use Flygon here, but I am much more successful with Latias because she takes so little from special threats compared to Flygon. With Recover and Psycho-Shift, Latias should
    last a while.

    Bug, Ice and Dark Type attacks aimed at Latias should be directed to....

    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Ability: Technician
    Adamant, 246 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe

    - Bullet Punch
    • The move that made Scizor such as beast. Technician + STAB + Priority is godly. Bullet Punch is the main move I use and has won me many battles
    - U-turn
    • U-turn is a great scouting move and deals a lot of damage to anything that doesn’t resist it. It allows me to keep up the offensive tempo by gaining the better switch when the opposition switches out of Scizor and I use U-turn.
    - Super Power
    • Mainly for steel types such as opposing Scizor’s, Heatran’s and Magnezone, if it dares to switch in.
    - Pursuit
    • Pursuit is for things like Choiced Gengar / Rotom locked in on Shadow Ball, although it has proven useful against things like Mamoswine, who switch out expecting a bullet punch.
    Description: Pretty much just a standard CB set. Scizor is just such a great pokemon. Once I have eliminated the opposing Zapdos / Magnezone / Rotom, scizor can plow through a team with bullet punch alone. Scizor makes a great check to Mamoswine, Weavile and Metagross.

    EVs: Max attack is obvious for dealing as much damage as possible. 12 Speed Evs allows me to outspeed opposing Scizors and Vaporeon, while the rest is thrown into HP for extra survivability.

    Team Work: Scizor adds some much needed power in priority and takes on Latias / Weavile / Mamoswine (although I must be careful to not switch in to Earthquake). Scizors U-turn allows me to keep myself in control of the battle, while wearing down Scizors counter on the switch. Scizor is a good first switch into blissey with a resistance to thunder-wave and doesn’t care too much about paralysis.

    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    Naive, 16 Atk / 240 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe

    - Draco Meteor
    • The most powerful move in my arsenal that deals huge damage, even to things that resist it (manages around 50% on scarf Jirachi). Draco Meteor will take a huge chunk out of anything (except Blissey).
    - Outrage
    • Draco Meteor + Outrage will kill pretty much any non-steel type. I mostly use Outrage when Salamence is significantly weakened, and being locked in won’t matter so much.
    - Flamethrower
    • For those steel types that try to wall my dragon moves.
    - Earthquake
    • For Heatran, Tyranitar and Empoleon. I think Earthquake + Outrage kills Calm Blissey, but I may be wrong.
    Description: Salamence is the real star of the show. There is only one pokemon that can repeatedly switch in and that is Cresselia. Salamence hardly ever fails to get me a KO, and usually ends up getting 2 or 3. This is, in my opinion the best wall breaker in the game and an invaluable asset. Draco Meteor + Outrage will destroy nearly all walls, while Flamethrower and Earthquake provide coverage on things that resist its STAB.

    EVs: 252 Speed Evs is to at best, tie with opposing base 100s, most notably opposing salamence and zapdos. 240 Special Attack is to boost Draco Meteor, which is my main sweeping move and 16 attack EVs provide a little power to Outrage and Earthquake.

    Team Work: Salamence usually takes out the opposing teams Zapdos, Bulky ground or Rotom (If I switch Salamence into Rotom after a kill, they usually stay in to will-o-wisp). Then scizor can clean up late game. Essentially, salamence should take out at least one pokemon and once that pokemon is gone, one of my pokemon should have an easier time sweeping.

    Azelf @ Leftovers
    Naive, 16 HP / 20 Atk / 252 Sp. Atk / 220 Speed
    IVs: 29 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 30 /30

    - Psychic
    • STAB and does decent damage to those that do not resist it.
    - Explosion
    • Insanely powerful and the gap created by this explosion should help one of my other pokemon sweep.
    - Flamethrower
    • Psychic + Flamethrower provide pretty good coverage together. Mainly used to Scizor, who switches in thinking he can OHKO with bullet punch (which he can’t).
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    • This is for Heatran who would otherwise switch in and wall my Azelf. It also dents Tyranitar. I chose HP ground > HP fighting because Hp fighting does not KO Heatran, whereas Ground would. HP fighting doesn’t 2HKO some Tyranitars which is pretty annoying, I just usually end up exploding against T-tar.
    Description: Take Deoxyes-S. Take away some speed, and add it to attack and special attack. Throw in Explosion and Flamethrower, while removing Ice Beam and Super Power and you have Azelf. Azelf is mainly here for a fast Special Attacker and an unexpected Explosion. Pretty standard Life Orb set with leftovers to prevent Scizor from OHKOing me with bullet punch after a couple of attacks.

    EVs: 220 Speed EVs lets Azelf outrun base 110’s, 252 Special Attack, because Azelf is primarily a Special Attacker, 16 HP prevents Scizor from OHKOing with bullet punch after Stealth Rock damage (i think) and the rest is placed into attack to boost explosion.

    Team Work: I usually save Azelf until late game. Azelf usually ends up exploding on a key member (like blissey for example), which allows my other sweepers like Latias to clean up. I would consider replacing Azelf with Gengar, for more special attack and because Tyranitar is pretty annoying.

    If you would like to see how this team is played it is featured in the warstory in my signature.
  2. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    Team Building Process:

    As I previously mentioned, offensive teams are based on resistances and wall breaking. I started off with one pokemon, the best wall breaker in the game: Mix-mence.

    So now I needed a strong hitter to take Ice attacks. Scizor, Empoleon, Heatran and Infernape sprung to mind. I decided to go with Scizor, because CB U-turn and Bullet Punch was too good to pass up.

    So now I needed a pokemon to take fire attacks aimed at Scizor. Heatran, Gyarados, Flygon, Tyranitar and Latias were some good choices for this role. I decided against Tyranitar, because with sandstorm and Life Orb damage, Salamence would get worn down too quickly. I decided to go with Gyarados, because I figured it had the best wall-breaking abilities out of the remaining pokemon.

    Now I needed a pokemon to take Electric Attacks. Electivire, Flygon, Jolteon, Raikou, Latias, Dugtrio, Magnezone all came to mind. Jolteon seemed good because it would gain health with electric attacks. Electivire kind of sucks in my opinion. Magnezone would be cool to partner with Salamence. In the end I decided to use Latias, I’d been dying to try her out and using her I have gained knowledge on how she affects the metagame. For those of you who are curious on how I will be voting, I will be voting for Latias to move into OU.

    So now I had my core consisting of Salamence, Scizor, Gyarados and Latias. These four pokemon alone covered every type in the game. So now I was free to choose two other pokemon. I needed Stealth Rocks on this team and a couple of Exploders is always nice. I decided to lead with metagross, who learns both Stealth Rock and Explosion, and who has bullet punch to get the quick 2HKO on suicide leads.

    I then decided to add Nasty Plot Azelf to my team, because no-one prepares for Azelf anymore, they just expect it to be a suicide lead. Later on I changed Azelf and gave it explosion over nasty plot, because Azelf was never able to get off a full sweep with scizor, scarf-tran and blissey everywhere. Explosion helped create gaps in the opposing team and helped my other team members sweep.

    So this is how I came up with the team.
  3. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    Offensive Threat List

    Aerodactyl: Metagross 2HKO’s with meteor mash and bullet punch. If he taunts, gets no SR, if he doesn’t taunt I get SR.

    Alakazam: Scizor and Metagross do well if they don’t come in on focus blast.

    Azelf: See aerodactyl.

    Breloom: I usually let metagross go to sleep, then U-turn with scizor to break his substitute and switch to salamence and gyarados on the focus punch.

    Dragonite: Metagross and scizor can come in on the outrage / draco meteor. Gyarados can come in and intimidate him.

    Dugtrio: Uh counter? Metagross isn’t KOd by earthquake, scizor can OHKO with bullet punch, every other pokemon can switch out.

    Electivire: I have no electric attacks so it can’t get a speed boost. I first scout if it’s mixed or special. If it’s special, Latias handles it. If he’s physical I lure in an ice punch and scizor U-turns it for major damage.

    Empoleon: Don’t let it set up. Whatever it comes in on, hit it hard (unless it comes in on a CB bullet punch, if it does get to set up, Latias can do well as most carry Grass Knot > Ice Beam

    Flygon: Metagross does well against U-turn / Stone Edge and Outrage. Gyarados does well against U-turn and earthquake.

    Gengar: Usually choiced. I lure in a shadow ball / hp ice and Scizor pursuits it. If it’s not choiced, I can still lure out that attack and bullet punch it. Metagross does well to. Azelf outspeeds on OHKOs non-choiced versions.

    Gyarados: Metagross can explode if it sets up too much. I can switch around with intimidate and my stone-edge and ice resists as a last resort.

    Heatran: Latias and Gyarados.

    Heracross: Gyarados and Salamence do well against Megahorn and Close Combat, Metagross does well against Stone Edge. Scizor can OHKO when it’s around 80%.

    Infernape: Latias and Gyarados.

    Jirachi: Metagross is my first switch against choice-scarfed versions. Fire Punch does only 35% and metagross can meteor mash and explode when low on health.

    Jolteon: Latias does well. Metagross does okay too and scizor can revenge kill if it’s low on health.

    Kingdra: Switch gyarados in for the intimidate as it Dragon Dances. I Stone Edge as it DD’s again, and then switch to metagross on the outrage. If Kingdra does outrage after gyarados switches in I should survive it anyway.

    Latias: Metagross and Scizor.

    Lucario: Gyarados will stop it from sweeping. Salamence and Azelf outspeed and OHKO with flamethrower.

    Machamp: Azelf outspeeds and OHKOs as does salamence. Dynamic Punch confusion is the worst thing. I can usually switch gyarados into a dynamic punch, then metagross into a stone edge.

    Magnezone: Latias. Metagross survives its thunderbolt at around 65% and can OHKO with explosion. I try to not bullet punch early in case they have a magnezone.

    Mamoswine: Metagross does 80% with bullet punch and isn’t OHKOed by earthquake. Scizor can come in on the ice shard and KO with bullet punch. Gyarados does okay if it avoids stone edge.

    Metagross: Scizor can come in on the meteor mash, take 35%ish from the earthquake and then U-turn to Salamence or Azelf who can OHKO from there.

    Porygon-Z: Scizor / Metagross and Latias.

    Rhyperior: Try not to let it set up. Gyarados out runs and OHKOs offensive versions with waterfall. Scizor 2HKOs with bullet punch. Metagross can meteor mash or bullet punch. Salamence can use draco meteor, which is a possible KO without sandstorm in my experience.

    Salamence: Scizor can kill it at about 60%. Metagross does well against Outrage / Draco Meteor. Gyarados does well against earthquake and flamethrower / fire blast can come in and intimidate the DD version, and then switch to my steel on the outrage.

    Scizor: Gyarados. Salamence can do okay if it’s at good health. Azelf isn’t KOed by bullet punch and can KO in return with flamethrower.

    Starmie: Use resistances to get Scizor in on an Ice Beam and then pursuit it and U-turn out. Latias does well against the rapid spinner.

    Togekiss: Switch to Latias on the thunderwave and psycho shift it back. This will usually ruin it for the rest of the match.Metagross does well with a resistance to air slash and can meteor mash it for big damage. Gyarados OHKOs with stone edge.

    Tyranitar: Scizor OHKOs with bullet punch. Metagross can come in on the stone edge. Gyarados does well against aqua tail / earthquake and scizor does well against crunch.

    Weavile: Gyarados, scizor and metagross.

    Yanmega: Unless it has hypnosis metagross 2HKOs with meteor mash and bullet punch. If it does have hypnosis I still have a 40% chance to win. If I do get hypnotised, gyarados does okay against bug buzz and airslash. Scizor can do a lot of damage with bullet punch and bug buzz and air slash won’t kill scizor.

    Defensive Threat List:

    Blissey: Everything on my team has a way to beat it, even latias who has a chance to outstall it if it psycho-shifts toxic.

    Bronzong: Scizor comes in, U-turns it and then salamence and azelf finish it off with flamethrower.

    Celebi: Scizor unless it has HP fire. If it comes in to try to wall gyarados, I will beat it with bounce. Metagross KOs with explosion and salamence and azelf do heaps of damage with flamethrower. Latias can KO with Draco Meteor after 1 surf and and SR damage.

    Cresselia: Scizor does a lot of damage with U-turn. If it comes on salamence, draco meteor + outrage will wear it down enough for one of my other team members to finish it off. Latias can do okay, unless it has a way to boost sp. Atk. Probably the biggest threat defense-wise to my team.

    Donphan: Gyarados. Ice shard doesn’t KO salamence after SR and intimidate and I can OHKO with draco meteor. Usually switches in on salamence and proceeds to die with draco meteor. Azelf and latias can beat it too.

    Foretress: Azelf, salamence and latias. It can only beat gyarados if it explodes.

    Gliscor: Salamence with draco meteor. Gyarados and latias do well too.
    Hippowdon: Pretty much always leads and I just explode with metagross which has the chance to KO. If it doesn’t KO, one of my other pokes finishes it off.

    Skarmory: Azelf, Salamence and Latias.

    Snorlax: Scizor’s CB superpower. Metagross explodes before it gets too many curses.

    Suicune: Metagross can KO with explosion. Azelf Psychics once or twice depending on how many calm minds its got and then explodes. If it comes in on Salamence, Draco Meteor plus outrage will significantly weaken it so one of my pokes can finish it off.

    Swampert: Usually comes in on Salamence. Draco Meteor should take it out. Metagross can Explode and Azelf does well unless it has surf / waterfall / avalanche. Latias also does well if it has ice beam > avalanche.

    Tentacruel: Azelf 2HKOs with psychic. Salamence OHKOs with earthquake. It needs hp electric to beat gyarados. Latias will beat it too.

    Vaporeon: Metagross can OHKO with explosion. Azelf can psychic and explosion, draco meteor + outrage will beat it if it comes in on salamence. If it has Ice Beam, gyarados beats it. If it has Hp electric, Salamence beats it.

    Zapdos: Salamence KOs with draco meteor after SR. Gyarados beats it after a DD. Latias is also good against it too.
  4. UltimoVenusaur


    Jun 26, 2008
    What Celebi is going to stay in to take a STAB Bounce from Gyarados? You'd probably be better off going for Ice Fang in that spot.
  5. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 2, 2007
    Have you ever considered Lum Berry on your Metagross lead? It's not as though Leftovers will be doing a great deal; you're probably gonna be blowing him up before he can really take advantage of them and Leftovers also allows the opponent to rule out the possibility that you're Scarfed...a lot of Metagross leads do run Trick after all. Lum Berry seems like a good investment as you don't want something like Gengar, Roserade or Yanmega ruining your Metagross's fun as he seems key to this teams success.

    Not sure about Latias only having 281 Speed. I'd be tempted to bump it up to 300 so as not to lose out to Adamant Salamence/Flygon but I guess that's a preference thing and it's not as if either will switch in on Latias or stay in on her.

    Looks like a great team that keeps the tempo up. I like the fact that most of your sets deviate from the norm a little (CBScizor over SDScizor, MixMence over DDMence, Bounce Gyara etc). I can see the increasingly common SpecsJolt being a dick should anything happen to Latias as he can just lock himself into Thunderbolt and come close to OHKOs on your whole team but I guess that's remedied a little by the fact that that Latias set is pretty anti-Pursuit but it's something to be cautious about.

    Great RMT, brilliantly presented. 5 stars.
  6. chaos 9

    chaos 9

    Apr 19, 2007
    This team is great, and the #1 always speaks volumes, but there are a few minore changes (read nitpicks) that I can find in this solid team.

    I would go with refresh instead of psycho shift on latias for a few main reasons. One reason would be that once blissey statuses you and you shift it back, she can just status you again and you are helpless. It would also help you as most of latias's counters besides blissey are already covered and don not like to status anyway, so psyco shift is really only for blissey anyway.

    Also, I would put occa berry on lead gross because as lee said, lefties don't do much and occa could potentially prevent you from losing to infernape if you play him correctly.

    This is all for me, I see no problems and grats on getting #1! (i'm also a bit rushed atm, might come back later for more ratege)

    -chaos 9
  7. chenman333


    Aug 26, 2008
    Excellant team. My only gripe is Earthquake on Salamence; I think Brick Break just goes better there.

    You can't 1hko Heatran, but at least Brick Break (all ghost types are 1hkoed by Draco Meteor after rocks) does not give free switch ins to all the levitators or flyers out there (a lot more common than ghosts anyway). Because you never know when that small, extra hit could become something huge. Not to mention with all the sandstream for Tyranitar, as well as SR, Salamence is going to be taking lots of hits and needs to dish out all the pain he can. You will 1hko most Tyranitar (very nice, Earthquake doesn't always), and still do hefty damage to Empoleon.

    And the ability to 2hko Blissey without Outrage (because good players will see it coming, switch to their steel, you die) is godly. (it does 55 minimum to Calm Max Def Blissey, 61 on average)
  8. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    I hardly ever see status leads anymore due to hypnosis's drop in accuracy. Leftovers prevents yanmega from 2HKOing and Metagross usually hangs around a while, only exploding on key threats or when I'm really low on health.

    Yeah I hate specs jolt, but the only way it can beat latias is shadow ball, and if it uses that, scizor can pursuit it.

    Yeah I'm not sure about Latias's speed, I'll seriously consider giving it more speed.

    Thats the thing UltimoVenasaur, people don't keep their celebi in to take a bounce. A lot of people rely solely on celebi to counter gyarados and bounce can often get me a sweep. More leftovers recovery and the ability to dodge explosions is really good as well.

    Neutral Bounce has 127.5 power and a super-effective Ice Fang has 130 power and I have stone edge to beat fliers so Ice fang isn't that useful.

    Earthquake is better for: Lucario (after draco drop), empoleon, heatran.
    Brick Break is better for: Tyranitar (earthquake always 2HKOs just for interest) and blissey.

    Psycho Shift is not just for blissey. Rotom, Celebi, Cresselia all come to mind. reflecting the status back at the opponent is more useful then just getting rid of it. I've won a game due to reflecting paralysis back at a togekiss. Sure, Blissey can reflect status back at me, but I can switch to scizor and metagross to take that status.

    Against lead infernapes and metagross I can just switch to Latias or SR if i think they won't attack.
  9. Articanus


    Dec 2, 2006
    That Bounce calculation is inacurate, since that includes LO, which you don't have.

    Metagross 2HKOs Yanmega with MM+ BP, iirc, so Lum Berry is the better option overall, or even Occa Berry with EQ to take on the two leads that you had problems with
  10. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    bounce has 85 base power.

    85 x 1.5 (STAB)
    = 85 + 42.5
    = 127.5

    isn't that the right calculation?
  11. CardsOfTheHeart


    Aug 21, 2007
    Okay, let's straighten out this Bounce calculation issue.

    +1 Adamant 252 Atk Gyarados against:
    • Bold 252 HP / 220 Def Celebi: 81.68-96.53%
    • Timid 136 HP / 156 Def Starmie: 72.54-85.76%
    That's with my calculator. I checked them against Libelldra's calculator to be sure and got the same results. (Don't rely on MetalKid's calculator; it's not fixed yet.)

    Brilliantly presented team, by the way. Everyone should put this much thought into their teams.
  12. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    Oh ok, I used metalkid to calculate that, thanks.
  13. Articanus


    Dec 2, 2006
    574 Atk vs 320 Def & 404 HP (85 Base Power): 330 - 390 (81.68% - 96.53%)

    yeah I got that too. for some reason I thought it needed LO and eve then it wouldn't KO =/
  14. Duck Tape Son

    Duck Tape Son

    Dec 14, 2008
    qft ^

    I'm glad someone else is using Azelf too, finally (the same set in fact). I used to use a really bulky Occa Berry Metagross specifically for Ape and Heatran leads. Pretty much an unstoppable lead to me, but all Heatran leads are Shuca Berry now =/ so Occa Berry may be redundant. But then I think again, I've seen some Scarf/Lead Ape with U-Turn occassionally and they U-Turn to CB Tar luring in Latias that switch-in. So to prevent this lure, in the case in which it (as well as Heatran) does use Flamethrower/FireBlast/OverHeat, plus the fact that Leftovers may not be that useful since you have Explosion, I'd go with Occa Berry as well.

    Amazing team, I seriously have no input (besides this ^) because anything I can think of probably won't benefit more than the moves/pokemon and shit you have right now. Well done
  15. JohnR011


    Jun 13, 2008
    Wow, impressive team and a good rmt as well. My only question would be why you have Azelf on your team. I can't really see it doing that much for you other than just exploding on something..which most people will probably expect it to do. I would suggest considering something like Tyranitar over it; it would flow fairly well with the rest of your team and could also give you an answer to specsjolt. Anyway, it's a good, solid team. Nice job.
  16. chenman333


    Aug 26, 2008
    Lucario can be killed with Flamethrower, so Brick Break isn't necessary for him. If he switches into Draco Meteor, still killed by Brick Break (it does 83% minimum). The sad thing really has no business with Salamence except for Extreme Speed.

    After switching into any of your attacks, Agility Empoleon (most popular nowadays) is easily outsped and KOed by Brick Break. Defensive Empy can't be KOed like this (still 2hkoed by Brick Break though), but even with Earthquake, it is not guaranteed you will pull it off either.

    So really, its only better for Heatran, who will usually force you out with its scarf anyway if you don't earthquake on the switch. If it isn't scarfed, it will be KOed by Brick Break after it switches into Draco Meteor (assuming Naive).

    Though there are times where hitting neutral, Earthquake will do a better job, and maybe against grounded steels. But generally, grounded steels run a bit more on the defensive side (like Metagross) so Flamethrower is still around as good. And of course, in terms of hitting neutral, Outrage is king.

    I like that idea of having Occa Berry for Metagross, but then he needs Earthquake to get stuff done, which means getting rid of something important.
  17. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 26, 2008
    The only thing I would possible suggest on the team is perhaps a Scarf Gengar instead of Azelf.

    Gengar @ Choice Scarf
    Modes Nature
    252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
    - Hidden Power [GROUND]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball / Trick
    - Explosion

    The reason I suggest Scarf Gengar is so your team has a way to stop Dragon Dance Gyarados (besides clever intimidate switching)
    With this you can possibly revenge kill Heatrans who are not expecting Hidden Power (GROUND) and Trick a scarf to an unwanted pokemon. Then to put the icing on the cake you'll be able to explode (not as powerful as Azelf) taking a Blissey or a strong wall down with you.
  18. Duck Tape Son

    Duck Tape Son

    Dec 14, 2008
    Azelf lures in Heatran and takes it out to further aid in BP Scizor sweep, and since most Heatrans are now Sub Toxic rather than Scarf, with the presense of Latias, he won't have to worry about being outsped. Tyranitar would only hinder Gyarados' usefulness of Bounce in gaining free turns of Leftovers and Salamence would be weakened quicker due to Life Orb's presense, although Specs Jolt is a pain.

    Maybe something different than Tar that could help against Specs Jolt? Don't worry I won't say Bliss. Electivire sucks so... no lol. Snorlax maybe? Not sure how it will aid in the team as of yet. Or just try Flygon over Latias in Suspect and not just in Standard =/

    I'm an idiot for forgetting about lack of Earthquake. I'd try Earthquake, but it's hard to think what to replace... in this reason I guess Leftovers is better =/
  19. rkatzam


    Sep 6, 2007
    I've run a similar Metagross set, only with a few speed evs (to outrun no speed base 85 pokes), EQ over Meteor Mash, and Occa Berry over Leftovers. I scored many important KOs vs Infernape or Heatran. Bullet Punch is needed for the priority and the fact it can finish off stuff, also being x2 effective vs Aerodactyl. However, I didn't use mine as a lead. I think SR would probably be better on stuff like Azelf because he will get more chances to attack, due to being fast and often causing switches. Sometimes Metagross ends up just exploding without setting up SR, and SR is too good to give up on.
  20. paramylodon


    May 24, 2007
    I have a question, why the 6 remaining evs on metagross in special defense rather then speed?
    Other pokemon with the same base speed to lazy to invest would then be out paced-a potential real benefit, while I'm not sure how much practical gain could be had from 6 evs in special defense.
    Largely, I'm asking this question for my own teams, as if what I've been doing may in fact not be nearly as beneficial relative to alternatives as I thought it would be.
  21. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    There are 2 OU pokemon with the same speed as metagross: Breloom and Skarmory. Brelooms always run speed and I can't touch skarmory. I can't touch opposing metagross either. Usually yes, 1 speed point is more benificial then 1 point in another stat, but I don't really see the point in metagross's case.
  22. Scofield

    Scofield Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Sep 14, 2007
    Well explosion from metagross does about Damage: 52.40% - 61.68%

    So, if you outsped it and skarm was weakened, you can blow up on it before it has a chance to roost.

    I wanted to say that, but I haven't had the time to make a full proper rate, so I might update this or post again.

    What I immediately noticed was a weakness to zapdos. I guess it can only really come in on scizor, and then you would be u-turning to mence or whatever else. And then latias isn't a terrible switch-in to zapdos, but the lack of calm mind kinda hurts.
  23. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    good point scofield, ill put those evs into speed. Zapdos can't really do anything to latias, Hp ice won't scratch it much and I can psycho-shift back status
  24. Alice

    Alice The worst taste in music

    Jun 23, 2007
    Sub-zapdos beats your latias: with a sub up you can't bounce back toxic (which they usually run).
  25. diamondfan1910


    Dec 4, 2008
    I think Empoleons are leaning more toward Ice Beam now; at least, they will if Latias gets into OU. Great team though. I want to copy it :p

    I don't know about Naive on Salamence, though. You mentioned tying with other base 100s, but I think most of them shoot for 299 Speed, which you're still doing. You also get a big power upgrade, although I think I'm still thinking about when Brick Break was standard with 252 HP/Def Blissey. Now with Outrage and 0 HP/252 Def Blissey, it's not as much of an issue. Maybe a Rash or Mild nature might benefit you more, though? To boost the Special moves, that is.

    You're right about EQ and Outrage KOing Bliss, by the way (again, the standard 0 HP/252 Def Calm Blissey). EQ does 37% minimum, followed by Outrage's 67% minimum.

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