Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Anty]

Focused more on the undiscovered mons/what i have posted in other threads:

Illimuse to C:
Every one has seen me poting in every thread about this, but thats because sub passing is undiscovered and actually viable. Since most people know what im on about, i wont talk too much about it. Basically encore a poke or force something out, then subsitute and baton pass into a poke depending on the opps switch in. This is great support for mons like costa who cant afford to drop coverage and want to beat a check like pluff, costa also beats all of illimuse's weaknesses. Its niche over volbeat is using bug buzz to do damage, also generally encore is nice support vs set up sweepers.

Regigigas to D+/C- (for now, i can see it going higher):
The problem with gigas is that it has 'dusk syndrome', ie bad people think its a lot better than it is so it gets high ladder usage, and people think its utter crap, when in fact it has a niche. Its bulk + support gives it a nice niche over normals like stoutland and ursaring, and if you play well with it you can wreck teams after 5 turns, which is not as hard as you think due to the lack of fighting types, and strong attackers all hate twave. Im not sure on the best set, but i run return/knock off/drain punch or sub/twave (no confuse ray pls) inb4 bandwaggon

Im not commenting on slaking yet, but it might have a niche so watch out ;)

Zweilous to B:
Spdef zweilous has recently been hyped for a good reason. Its typing is so helpful, as it doesnt just hard counter ninetales and zebstrika (in s and a+), but also grants it switchins to other common pokes like leafeon, roselia, misdreavus, rapidash, and haunter, while also being able to dent most of the tier with an uninvested hustle crunch, or annoy the opp with dragon tail (likes hazard partners), or even cripple offensive switch ins with thunder wave. The only things holding this poke back is accuracy + lack of recovery without rest, which is why im suggesting B.

Simisear to B+:
Simisear has two main sets, nasty plot and all out attacker, and it has decent niches over rapidash and heatmor, which give it competition for those sets. The main reason to use this over tales is its power, which is pretty decent as (unlike tales) it can OHKO poliwrath with a +2 grass knot, and the main reason to use it over heatmor is its speed, making it much more successful vs offensive teams and allowing it to revenge kill pokes like ninetales with rock slide. The fact that the 4 attacks set is on level with heatmors, and that it can also run a NP set (which is b rank minimum) shows that it should be a rank higher.

 

[ManOfMany]

I actually think it would be a good idea to move Heatmor down in regards to Simisear. The only things that Heatmor has over Simisear are Flash Fire and Sucker Punch, which IMO is not enough to make up for Simisear's much higher speed. Simisear has grass knot to Heatmor's giga drain, also learns knock off, and also learns low kick and superpower.
Not to mention there is already a huge opportunity cost in running Heatmor over the generally superior Ninetales and Rapidash.

Heatmor to C+

Also, what is Cherrim doing in C-, that really surprised me. O_O Maybe it's because it learns Healing Wish, but one good move on a pokemon with an otherwise absolutely barren movepool is not enough for me.
And we already know Cherrim's Sunny Day set is no good because it is outclassed by standard Chlorophyll sweepers.

Cherrim to E

 

[Anty]

Also, what is Cherrim doing in C-, that really surprised me. O_O Maybe it's because it learns Healing Wish, but one good move on a pokemon with an otherwise absolutely barren movepool is not enough for me.
And we already know Cherrim's Sunny Day set is no good because it is outclassed by standard Chlorophyll sweepers.

Cherrim to E

As some of you may know, mag and I went on a large run of testing lower ranked mons which have been mostly placed in the VR due to theorymon. We tried cherrim as healing wish is shown to be amazing utility by scarf mr mime being useful (i guarantee this thing would not be used without healing wish), so we then tested the other two users (thats also the reason chimecho is there). A set of 3 attacks + healing wish worked well enough, as grass is a decent STAB in this metagame, and cherrims speed tier was good enough to be able to possibly get a hit off while also healing wish on slower pokes, or ones like poliwrath which it forced out. Healing wish is amazing utility considering this metagame is based around set up sweepers, and this niche is easily enough for c-, considering D is for pokes with a niche, although that tends to not be worth using (eg fearow over dodrio), while cherrim has enough of a niche to use on a competitive team.

 

[Raiza]

Approving Zweilous to B, lol how this Pokemon was lower than B I don't know, Dragon typing is so good nowadays in the tier to check troublesome Pokemon for many teams such as Ninetales, Leafeon, Misdreavus, and Haunter as Anty already said. Also underrated sets for it, such as the specially defensive one, are starting to pop up, making it less predictable than it could be. Although I've always liked the Choice Banded set a lot, it is just great to break through common walls and lure in other important Pokemon for stall teams and balanced such as Togetic and Avalugg with Head Smash, if you're not unlucky as hell and you get a blind Zweilous that game, but I think Hustle is pretty worth considering it makes Zweilous viable as a Choice Band user, giving it a niche over Fraxure, which is also a good option as a Dragon Type, I suggest it to you all, as it can also run sets such as the Dragon Dancer.

Approving Simisear to B+ too, it has some competition with other Fire-types such as Heatmor and especially Ninetales, which outclasses it in many things, such as bulk and speed, but Simisear still provides some niches that are useful and enough to be a viable and a good option to the latter, such as more damage output, the possibility to run two various and good sets, and Fighting-coverage that Ninetales wants so bad to hit Pokemon such as Zweilous hard, without getting outspeeded like Heatmor. It also has access to decent underrated options such as the SubSalac with possibly Gluttony or Blaze for more damage, to raise its speed and get very threatening to offensive teams and Knock Off to cripple Eviolite users, making it worthy of a B+ rank at least, as the lose of bulk and speed, if you compare it to Ninetales, is totally compensated.

 

[ManOfMany]

As some of you may know, mag and I went on a large run of testing lower ranked mons which have been mostly placed in the VR due to theorymon. We tried cherrim as healing wish is shown to be amazing utility by scarf mr mime being useful (i guarantee this thing would not be used without healing wish), so we then tested the other two users (thats also the reason chimecho is there). A set of 3 attacks + healing wish worked well enough, as grass is a decent STAB in this metagame, and cherrims speed tier was good enough to be able to possibly get a hit off while also healing wish on slower pokes, or ones like poliwrath which it forced out. Healing wish is amazing utility considering this metagame is based around set up sweepers, and this niche is easily enough for c-, considering D is for pokes with a niche, although that tends to not be worth using (eg fearow over dodrio), while cherrim has enough of a niche to use on a competitive team.

OK, but what about Chimecho then? Why use that over Mr.Mime (aside from Stored Power gimmick)? All it has is a bit more physical bulk and no weakness to poison and steel, which hardly matters anyway since psychic-fairy is a far superior typing to psychic.

 

[Anty]

OK, but what about Chimecho then? Why use that over Mr.Mime (aside from Stored Power gimmick)? All it has is a bit more physical bulk and no weakness to poison and steel, which hardly matters anyway since psychic-fairy is a far superior typing to psychic.

Chimecho can function as a speccially defensive wall as it gets recover, unlike mime/grumpig, which allows it to be a semi competent check to poliwrath, kadabra, mr mime and over special attacker. Other utility moves like thunder wave, taunt and heal bell also give it a nice enough niche for c-.

 

[Raiza]

Dwebble to B
If you're going to add Whirlipede and Venipede to B you can't miss out this little guy too! Along with the latter, Dwebble is one of the best suicide leads in PU at the moment. Thanks to the return of Custap Berry into ORAS, Dwebble is now able to perform the role of a Custap Lead succesfully on hyper offensive teams, with a niche over other entry hazards setters of being able to set both Stealth Rock and Spikes. Another niche is also partially told in the set name, as Custap Berry along with sturdy and possibly Endure guarantee at least a layer of Stealth Rock or Spikes if not against a Taunt or Rock Blast user. Dwebble is also not a passive potato just standing there, as it is also able to hit back hard physical attackers that try to bring it down, thanks to its access to Counter, or cripple Ghost-types and Eviolite users with Knock Off, amazing! Sadly, Dwebble is still unviable on defensive teams, as it's not meant to live for long also because of its terrible bulk, and its bad attacking stat makes it easily bullied by set up sweepers, though it's still a great choice as a suicide lead, as it does its job magnificently, therefore worth a B rank at least.

 

[poogtg]

Im here to talk about Lord Tentakewl for unlisted to D/C- rank. It deserves a rank because it has a decent niche.

So, I would only ever use it on a stall team because it can soak up hits from a few mons that would otherwise powerhouse through stall teams with ease. After switching in, it can sometimes spin or stack t-spikes which is immensely importante for stall.

Mixed Simipour
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 47-55 (16.6 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
That's the best it can do against tentacool, yet it destroys just about every other pu mon. Tentacool can giga drain back, rapid spin, start t-spike stacking. It beats Nasty/salac, and Nasty/life orb, but the life orb set is a little rougher.

Specs Poliwrath
252+ SpA Choice Specs Poliwrath Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 51-61 (18 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
poli sucks. Clear body helps from fb Sp. Def lowering haxorz

Ninetales
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 90-107 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Ninetales Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tentacool: 120-143 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

8 SpA Tentacool Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 140-168 (48.7 - 58.5%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

Best case scenario for ninetales is that it has HP ground instead of dark pulse, but Tentacool still wins provided SR/spikes aren't on ur field. Ninetales doesn't run psyshock anymore with throh gone. Clear body helps from Energy ball Sp. def lowering haxorz

It beats LO stall breaker haunter 1v1 but can't switch in. I would put tentacool D rank cuz roselia is generally a good spike stacker all around but cannot deal with any of these mons (ice beam/fire blast) and most other stall mons can't deal with them either. Tentacool has no recovery and of course needs the benefit of licky wish. Tentacool's low base HP appreciates the huge wish passes.

 

[Anty]

Barbaracle to A+/A:
Barbaracle is a seriously underrated poke in the current metagame due to the amount of people that dont run checks to this, either because they forget about it as they think costa is better, or they think wrath is enough. In fact wrath is a very poor check considering with white herb you take ~35% from a vaccum wave and do around 85% back, and it really isnt hard to get chip damage. This is a similar case with plenty of its checks, including pokes like torterra which needs to be at 80% to take an arial ace, meaning the only reliable checks to this monster are tangela, who has significantly dropped in usage due to team comp with rose (and it isnt hard to bait in and knock off its item, making it die to aa), gourg-xl, who again has dropped in usage, and the main one, choice scarf users with 95+ speed (assuming adamnt barbaralce). Easily setting up + sweeping with small amounts of support shout out a+ to me. This doesnt have too much team comp from costa as it is largely due to personal preference, and only slightly to do with how well can your team handle jumpluff.

Ursaring A:
After my post last time about this and stoutland, i have realised that this is more viable than stoutland in the current metagame. Both their huge amounts of power and coverage mean that they both can sweep through bulkier teams, however there is a big difference between their success vs offensive (the better type) teams which relates to speed. Stoutlands lack of getting warn down and slight more bulk doesnt really mean much compared to the fact ursaring reaches ~108 speed, whereas stoutland is only at 80, so not only are there more ways to RK stout, but also it cannot function as a revenge killer to pokes like ninetales, simipour, and dodrio. Stoutlands power isnt that much greater considering their STABs are roughly as strong, so only superpower/cc, which isnt used as more is stronger, but that doesnt factor in SD and that ursaring isnt locked into a move. Ursaring fits better in A-rank, as i feel it is comparable to raichu as they are both fairly fast pokes with great coverage, and what raichu has in the utility of an item, immediate speed and lack of status, ursaring makes up for in sheer power and bulk.

 

[Magnemite]

Update, not too much to say about this one but as usual pm/vm me if you want an explanation for anything

Lickilicky from A- to B+
Mightyena from B+ to A-
Whirlipede from B- to B
Venipede from B- to B
Vullaby from C+ to B-
Illumise from D to C
Regigigas from E to D
Zweilous from B- to B
Simisear from C+ to B+
Dwebble from B- to B
Tentacool from unlisted to D
Barbaracle from A- to A+
Ursaring from A- to A

 

[Froggyboy]

to B+
Busy so lets make this quick.
Stunfisk counters Zebstrika, Pawniard, Kadabra, non Scarf Haunter, LO Raichu, Chatot, non-boosted Mightyena, and more. It sets up rocks, can cripple offensive mons like Jumpluff, Mr. Mime, and Basculin with Discharge, or Scald if you are that guy, and I personally like it as an offensive mon.
It only got better with the banning of Throh and Sneasel, with the decline of things like Leafeon and Victreebel, I think it has potiental as a B+ mon.

 

[Magnemite]

This seems like a pretty silly nom at first glance but this actually has a decent niche:

Nominating Onix from unlisted to C

Onix is a better sun lead than Carbink because it's quite a bit faster and has Taunt so it doesn't have to rely on Magic Coat 50/50s. Carbink is bulkier and has a good typing, but that's a lot less relevant since Sneasel left, and nearly all teams have something that can outspeed and 2HKO Carbink anyway which really undermines its bulk. There's also the fact that Pawniard outspeeds Carbink and has a 30% chance to prevent it from getting anything up at all which is pretty huge. I'm not really sure on where exactly this should go, I'm nomming it for the same rank as Electrode to start with but I could see it being as high as B-. It's really niche but it's good at its niche and is the best option for an entire playstyle (unlike Electrode which isn't even close to mandatory on rain), so I'm conflicted on where exactly to put it.

Hide

Snake? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!!!

edit:
[3:28:20 PM] anty: wow mag
[3:28:28 PM] anty: at least give me credit for finding onix
[3:28:28 PM] anty: ;;;

credit to Anty i guess

[15:51:28] gasquakee: i found onix in trashmons :c
[15:51:33] gasquakee: muh credit
[15:52:02] +Magnemite: ok i'll give you credit too

credit to GasQuake as well

 

[g]

Grumpig for A-

It checks 2 of the current S rank Pokemon incredibly solidly as well as a couple of A+s (stuff like Zebstrika really needs A LOT of prior damage to defeat this beast
It doesn't really have recovery but can feasibly run Protect to recover precious health and isn't a free switch in for Dark-types and Probopass thanks to its access to Focus Blast.
Awesome user of Thunder Wave too which is incredibly useful and can also fit stuff like Taunt and Whirlwind on sets. Anti meta

 

[MZ]

Metang for B-
This thing is really underrated as a SR setter. For one thing, it's one of the only setters that actually switches into Jumpluff (although sleep sucks). It's not a ground type, meaning that you can run things like Torterra with it. Its dual STABs hit fairly hard, especially from max attack variants (it can do that, def, or spdef although max attack is probably best), and it has a lot of other good moves like toxic, bullet punch, earthquake, and grass knot. It can also be an invaluable check to the shell smashers in the tier, which is just stupidly useful. It's held back by no recovery and the knock off/fire move/eq weakness, but it's definitely an underrated SR setter right now (mostly due to just not being a ground or rock type). Oh, and it also check Aurorus which is underrated as shit right now.

Anty ur too slow

 

[Anty]

Machoke a-/b+: Its typing provides it with a decent matchup against the majority of the tier and it has the ability to switch into (if restalk) so many pokes, and is a soft check to overs such as pawniard. It also has great coverage in knock + fighting STAB and has coverage to bop switch ins like jumpluff and pelipper as well as priority to pick of weakened threats

Lunatone B: This is an incredibly underrated late game sweeper as many people overlook its amazing coverage allowing it to super effectively hit every s rank and all but 2 a+ ranks for super effective damage (those two take a ton of damage). It also isnt too hard to set up with due a decent special defense along with the ability to force a ton of pokes out.

Persian B-/B: Another cool late game sweeper, whereas this can also work mid game to wear the opp down. Nasty plot makes up for its low spatk and its great, strong coverage really helps it sweep. However, its main niche comes in its speed as it outspeeds all but 2 mons in the metagame and can quite often live an unboosted hit, giving it an easier time setting up and sweeping

Regigigas to C: Regi is hella bulky so is also a very solid soft check to a number of pokes and its support movepool (such as twave) really helps it out by threatening offensive pokes trying to wear it down before it loses its ability. Its coverage is also pretty nice and even before 5 turns it can still hit fairly hard, but after its speed and attack allow it to easily clean up weakened teams

Electrode to C-: there isnt much to say here but it is a worse version of relicanth who can also rain lead except has stealth rocks

 

[Raiza]

Metang seems fine at B-, though for me it really doesn't hit harder, especially if running a bulky set to check Pokemon you mentioned, I was expecting a lot from its damage output when I used it, but it has let me down :[. Machoke isn't THAT good to get into A-, RestTalk is not really reliable, especially without something to phaze out the opponent, and without a recovery it is difficult to keep up tanking damage, also being susceptible to Knock Off users, so even if it can switch into Pawniard, it would probably get its Eviolite removed, therefore becoming somewhat frail (80-70-60 defenses aren't so good). B+ is fine. Approving Lunatone to B #lunatoneToA. Persian way too situational and frail for B, it's outclassed as a pivot, and just rarely finds space to set up a Nasty Plot, fine with B-, even if it is really threatening if it gets the opportunity to set up, it still gets competition from a lot of good Nasty Plot users such as Ninetales etc. Ehhhh idk about Regigigas honestly, to me it just seems kinda a sitting duck, way too passive for C(lol). Though its bulk is really high, so it does its job decently, and Knock Off is actually annoying along with Thunder Wave, but typing makes it susceptible to entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes, and sometimes I just feel like playing 5v6, anyway i'm not opposing to this as this seems interesting, and C is p borderline.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Metang seems fine at B-, though for me it really doesn't hit harder, especially if running a bulky set to check Pokemon you mentioned, I was expecting a lot from its damage output when I used it, but it has let me down :[. Machoke isn't THAT good to get into A-, RestTalk is not really reliable, especially without something to phaze out the opponent, and without a recovery it is difficult to keep up tanking damage, also being susceptible to Knock Off users, so even if it can switch into Pawniard, it would probably get its Eviolite removed, therefore becoming somewhat frail (80-70-60 defenses aren't so good). B+ is fine. Approving Lunatone to B #lunatoneToA. Persian way too situational and frail for B, it's outclassed as a pivot, and just rarely finds space to set up a Nasty Plot, fine with B-, even if it is really threatening if it gets the opportunity to set up, it still gets competition from a lot of good Nasty Plot users such as Ninetales etc. Ehhhh idk about Regigigas honestly, to me it just seems kinda a sitting duck, way too passive for C(lol). Though its bulk is really high, so it does its job decently, but typing makes it susceptible to entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes, and sometimes I just feel like playing 5v6, anyway i'm not opposing to this as this seems interesting, and C is p borderline.

About Regigigas, from my long experience with that pokemon, it sorta acts like a sitting duck for 5 turns, but his ability to turn things into setup folder is unrivaled, by virtue of an insane bulk & pretty unfair yet existing SubPara. There isn't that much pokemons who can actually threaten Regigigas while not fearing a paralysis or anything from him.

 

[Magnemite]

Okay literally all of these noms are going through but I'll repeat them here anyway:

Grumpig from B+ to A-
Machoke from B to B+
Stunfisk from B to B+
Lunatone from C+ to B
Metang from C+ to B-
Persian from C+ to B-
Electrode from C to C-
Regigigas from D to C
Onix from unlisted to C

 

[Mistress Remilia]

Vibrava for C: Vibrava is quite an useful defogger. SpD Vibrava counters Fire type like Ninetales & Heatmor, and also counters any Electrics types w/out Ice coverage. Its decent offensive presence also allows him to OHKO or at the very least 2HKO most of the things it wants to switch in safely, giving him more turns to Defog. It also has a ground immunity & U-Turn. It's not outstanding by any means through, and aside from the pokemons i just listed, he doesn't wall anything really hard aside from really , hence why it shouldn't be any higher than C.

Chatot for B: Chatot isn't exactly bad or anything, but i don't feel like it's on par with the rest of the B+ Ranks. It's really easy to predict Chatot & act in consequence with his lack of Chatter to annoy you & allows him to else set up, or destroy your team with more ease. Its speed is also not that great, and 94 Spa isn't great either, if you don't hit with boomburst, your damages are most likely going to be pitiful.

 

[Froggyboy]

Stunfisk from B to B+

about time

anywho, I support the above noms, except I can't see Torterra in A+, its speed still sucks and it needs a free switch into Electric types like Zebstrika and Raichu since they usually carry SE coverage for it.

And I think Leafeon should be A, but I'm too lazy to write out a whole explanation.

 

[Raiza]

Torterra can fit in A imo. It can run a lot of different sets, therefore fit in like every team as Dundies already said, as a Ground-type niche is always appreciated in a team and makes it somewhat an alternative to Piloswine, though Electrics still screw it up easily with Hidden Power Ice or Fire-type coverage, which is unfortunate. Though, Torterra is actually a very threatening Rock Polish user too and possibly can run a Double Dance set, becoming a threat to unprepared teams, mostly offensive, which are common at the moment, but balanced too, as some of them, which are more defensively oriented, can't bring Torterra down before it set ups, and get steamrolled. A+ for me it's just too much, it can't reliably switch on Electric-types because 4x weak to Ice-type moves, which are commonly used on Electrics, and it's easily crippled by status, especially burn, and sometimes too slow to put in work something better as a setup sweeper, especially if there is Leafeon.
Talking about Leafeon, don't drop it, it is actually a beast on sun teams, which are becoming p popular now, and it isn't totally reliant from it, as its speed is still good. I've tried it and it never let me down once like, its coverage is actually good with access to moves such as Knock Off and Iron Tail, so if it manages to set up a Swords Dance, it can just tear apart through most walls and slow paced teams, though I basically use it as a cleaner on sun teams because of the speed boost, which paired with good Attack, is a blessing, as it is becomes able to outspeed common revenge killers and Choice Scarf users such as Zebstrika and Haunter, therefore easily KOing them with a Life Orb Knock Off.

 

[g]

Lunatone sucks ass it should be around C- (i would say D, it is THAT terrible)

1. It is pathetically weak against and from Specially Defensive Pokemon from Lickilicky to Hypno to Grumpig who do not give a single shit about it ever to remotely bulky offensive Pokemon (even stuff weak to its STAB lol 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 226-268 (78.7 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO or TANGELA EVEN 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 230-270 (68.8 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Not going to list all but to be clear Lunatone CANNOT OHKO pretty much anything outside of Zebstrika (which is faster and hits it hard) and Pawniard (which beats it lol) out of all S and A rank)
2. Can't set up on anything relevant that also doesnt heavily cripple it to Life Orb recoil or takes a hit from full anyway and is able to 2HKO (Ninetales beat it ONE ON ONE. LEFTOVERS NINETALES HAS A CHANCE TO EVEN WITH STEALTH ROCK UP) OUTSIDE OF THE PASSIVE HAZARDS SETTERS (which if played smartly can endeavor it down to one Life Orb hit)
3. Weak to Dark and Water which are pretty much the most spammed types in the tier lol
4. Also weak to Grass which is common as hell
5. Loses to Sun
6. Loses to Rain
7. Loses to SAND (EEEASILY 2HKOd by Return/OHKOd by Crunch, tickles Stoutland back for 60% with Psychic lol)
8. Loses to HO since it cant set up because of mediocre bulk and shitty defensive typing or they have Kadabra
9. Loses to Stall since it hits like Anty's mother
10. Loses to balance since everything takes a hit
11. LOSES TO SUCKER PUNCH USERS WHICH ARE ON EVERY TEAM
12. Loses to Air Baloon Probopass
13. Loses against stuff against which it has a Super Effective STAB against
14. We have better Rock types
15. We have better Psychic types
16. It looks stupid
17. It is a worse Solrock
18. It is worse than Rock Polish Golem
19. IT LOSES TO TAUROS AFTER HAVING SET UP ASSUMING IT HAS IRON TAIL

Also Fletchling should be in D since it beats sun and Jumpluff

 

[Kingler]

torterra is quite a bulky 'mon with a good offensive presence but it definitely shouldn't be A+; the most common Poli set runs IB, ninetales demolishes it, carracosta does ~70% w/ +2 ada waterfall and altho it's a cool offensive bulkyish mon it's really status-vulnerable. most electrics demolish it anyway, lol rotomf, raichu with hp ice and zeb w/ overheat. A seems fine for it but A+ is pushing it a lot lol

 

[Anty]

Lunatone sucks ass it should be around C- (i would say D, it is THAT terrible)

1. It is pathetically weak against and from Specially Defensive Pokemon from Lickilicky to Hypno to Grumpig who do not give a single shit about it ever to remotely bulky offensive Pokemon (even stuff weak to its STAB lol 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 226-268 (78.7 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO | 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO or TANGELA EVEN 252+ SpA Life Orb Lunatone Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 230-270 (68.8 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Not going to list all but to be clear Lunatone CANNOT OHKO pretty much anything outside of Zebstrika (which is faster and hits it hard) and Pawniard (which beats it lol) out of all S and A rank)
2. Can't set up on anything relevant that also doesnt heavily cripple it to Life Orb recoil or takes a hit from full anyway and is able to 2HKO (Ninetales beat it ONE ON ONE. LEFTOVERS NINETALES HAS A CHANCE TO EVEN WITH STEALTH ROCK UP) OUTSIDE OF THE PASSIVE HAZARDS SETTERS (which if played smartly can endeavor it down to one Life Orb hit)
3. Weak to Dark and Water which are pretty much the most spammed types in the tier lol
4. Also weak to Grass which is common as hell
5. Loses to Sun
6. Loses to Rain
7. Loses to SAND (EEEASILY 2HKOd by Return/OHKOd by Crunch, tickles Stoutland back for 60% with Psychic lol)
8. Loses to HO since it cant set up because of mediocre bulk and shitty defensive typing or they have Kadabra
9. Loses to Stall since it hits like Anty's mother
10. Loses to balance since everything takes a hit
11. LOSES TO SUCKER PUNCH USERS WHICH ARE ON EVERY TEAM
12. Loses to Air Baloon Probopass
13. Loses against stuff against which it has a Super Effective STAB against
14. We have better Rock types
15. We have better Psychic types
16. It looks stupid
17. It is a worse Solrock
18. It is worse than Rock Polish Golem
19. IT LOSES TO TAUROS AFTER HAVING SET UP ASSUMING IT HAS IRON TAIL

Also Fletchling should be in D since it beats sun and Jumpluff

Sorry for the negative post but this post isnt great logic and i feel there is a bit of bandwagoning. The main reason i majorly disagree with this is because most of these arguments could be said the same about ninetales or other top pokes, to a lesser extent, but still a lot. Tales isnt weak to grass but it it also loses to rain/sand/sun (latter to an extent), and i know the last couple bits are all jokes but it really does not give off a good vibe for that post. Disregarding your moderator status, there isnt really much there to persuade about its rank, other than talking about it being weak, and there you just list a bunch of mons which you can do with any other poke. I also find it pretty stupid that you are saying it is doing pitiful damage towards roselia but yet an unboosted life orb ninetales has the exact same damage role with fire blast. Im not trying to compare these pokes together as they are very different, but im saying you can just cherry pick arguments to make things look a lot worse than they actually are, for example losing to weather isnt very important. Some of these arguments do still apply before anyone argues, but you have to weigh the positives and the negatives ie; it loses to stall, but stall is unviable, or it finds difficulty setting up with common water types, but it can often set up on stuff like rapidash. Also remember this thing is b, so should have support to be effective. e: it probably isnt clear but i dont disagree with it going down just with those arguments.

As for Fletchling no team needs a dedicated sun check, and if you are weak to pluff you use a counter not a check. It does have a niche but im not even sure if it is big enough for it to even fit into D-rank.

Regarding torterra, people are focusing on the wrong arguments. The best set in this meta is the tank one, due to the decent amount of utility, as not only does it set up hazards but it can also switch into pawniard, check shell smashers, etc. It has too many flaws to be A+, including meaning you dont run rose (which is a legit problem), most waters still beat it (basc w/ ice beam), and most offensive sets are limited by its speed

And I think Leafeon should be A, but I'm too lazy to write out a whole explanation.

Cool!!!!!!

 

[g]

Sorry for the negative post but this post isnt great logic and i feel there is a bit of bandwagoning. The main reason i majorly disagree with this is because most of these arguments could be said the same about ninetales or other top pokes, to a lesser extent, but still a lot. Tales isnt weak to grass but it it also loses to rain/sand/sun (latter to an extent), and i know the last couple bits are all jokes but it really does not give off a good vibe for that post. Disregarding your moderator status, there isnt really much there to persuade about its rank, other than talking about it being weak, and there you just list a bunch of mons which you can do with any other poke. I also find it pretty stupid that you are saying it is doing pitiful damage towards roselia but yet an unboosted life orb ninetales has the exact same damage role with fire blast. Im not trying to compare these pokes together as they are very different, but im saying you can just cherry pick arguments to make things look a lot worse than they actually are, for example losing to weather isnt very important. Some of these arguments do still apply before anyone argues, but you have to weigh the positives and the negatives ie; it loses to stall, but stall is unviable, or it finds difficulty setting up with common water types, but it can often set up on stuff like rapidash. Also remember this thing is b, so should have support to be effective.

As for Fletchling no team needs a dedicated sun check, and if you are weak to pluff you use a counter not a check. It does have a niche but im not even sure if it is big enough for it to even fit into D-rank.

Regarding torterra, people are focusing on the wrong arguments. The best set in this meta is the tank one, due to the decent amount of utility, as not only does it set up hazards but it can also switch into pawniard, check shell smashers, etc. It has too many flaws to be A+, including meaning you dont run rose (which is a legit problem), most waters still beat it (basc w/ ice beam), and most offensive sets are limited by its speed


Cool!!!!!!

Ok I admit that my arguments were explained pretty inextensively but yes i am guilty of omitting them to make the post look more appealing I guess but here are my stances on Lunatone.

I used Lunatone for quite a number of games and the key problem with it is that i really didn't find any chances to use it as my winning condition (ik that is an overused term sorry) i.e. i could think "Ok in this game i need to weaken that mon and then set up Lunatone on that other mon and then i can sweep" because the variables for me being able to do so many, due to the sheer number of Pokemon able to wall Lunatone (only a handful have reliable recovery but there is man that fit in a lot of teams), the ones able to take a hit from it (which is surprisingly big in offensive/balanced teams), the fact that revenge killing it is easy (mostly Sucker Punch users like Pawniard and Aqua Jet users such as Carracosta and sometimes Floatzel and Basculin, Kadabra), and just the VERY limited number of Pokemon Lunatone can set up on which is basically some choice locked Pokemon (which strangely enough are not very common in PU) and some Fire-types (Rapidash, Ninetales if weakened since you can take an Energy Ball).
My list of playstyle that Lunatone loses or is dead weight against was just a reiteration of this problem.

Considering of how much things you need to take care of before using Lunatone i simply find wrong that it is in B rank (the niche is "being able to set up on some things Carracosta and Barbaracle do (i.e. Rapidash and Normal types) but also beating Poliwrath" which is arguable since Carracosta has Zen Headbutt and Barbaracle Aerial Ace and can use Chople or Natural Gift its cool) while a lot of Pokemon require less team support and are HUNDREDS OF TIMES more effective.
I believe this Pokemon is C ranks material at best.

Sorry if you readers deemed my post to be not comprehensive enough but please dont argue too much over this since it really is not important.

And regarding Fletchling i am sorry it is just a worse Chlorophil Jumpluff.